Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online

[ALF43]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

January Book Club Online  "Little Bee" by Chris Cleave Little Bee, or The Other Hand, as it was called when it was published in Great Britain in 2008, has captured the attention of millions of readers and elicited a wide range of reactions from shock and outrage to praise for the portrayal of the two main characters, whose personal lives become inextricably intertwined. In view of the publishers' request not to reveal too much of the plot too soon, we have foregone the customary questions in favor of presenting background information that may be useful. As always, we invite your comments and insights in the course of the discussion.

Facts: *Nigeria gained independence from British rule on October 1, 1960.  Around that time oil was discovered in the Niger delta, raising the hope that a post-colonial backwater country could rise to international prominence, radically improve its economy to better the health and education of its citizens. *Today Nigeria is the eighth largest exporter of crude oil with billions of dollars in oil revenues annually. The Nigerian government and the oil companies have benefited, but the Nigerian people are still among the poorest in the world.  Only 40% of the total population have access to electricity. Life expectancy is less than 46 years; infant mortality in the first year after birth alarmingly high.  There is environmental damage in the mining area and ongoing unrest in the country. Oil, blessing or curse? *The "Black Hill Immigratio Removal Center" in the book is fictitious, like the characters. However, holding places, safe havens  for foreign nationals, have existed in Britain since the Immigration Act of 1971 introduced "detention centres', as they were called,  to impose restrictions on their movements. The government immigration policy was tightened in 2002 in the wake of concern over increasing  numbers of asylum seekers. Today there are ten immigration removal centers in England and Wales, all run for profit by private companies at taxpayers' expense.

Reading Schedule

January 2,   Chapters One to Three, pages 1-85
January 9,   Chapters Four and Five, pages 86-149
January 16,  Chapters Six to Nine, pages 150-231
January 23, Chapter Ten, pages 232-266
January 30-31,  Conclusions  

Discussion Leaders:  Traude and Andy

Bella- Yes, Andrew was very arrogant in his encounter with the “gang” at the beach.  Andrew struck me as feeling “entitled” like so many people with prestige and distinction exhibit.
They take on the persona of eminence.
His arrogance and daring didn’t fly however with the leader who was not the least bit affected by Andrew’s bribes or insolence.
I think Sarah in her characteristic manner just wanted it over with.  She too bargained for their lives by hastily sacrificing her finger (and her marriage.)
I agree with Rosemary’s questioning of whether or not this could actually happen.  Now, they would just shoot and forego the questioning.
After a period of time most crazed thieves lose all sense of reasoning.  They get all fired up participating in violence, rapes and murder.  It makes me shudder just thinking about what poor Nkiruka had to endure.

Deb- I do believe that they were young Nigerian men.  You mentioned Metamoros just 5 miles away- when we disembarked about 10 years ago in Playa del Carmen, we were met at the beach with little men holding UZIS!  I thought I’d have a heart attack.  I thought they were kids but the bartender at the beach Cabana (that’s as far as I got)  assured me these soldiers were there for our “safety.”  I told him I didn’t feel very safe with kids holding UZIs on their shoulders.  My husband told me to be quiet and the bartender just shook his head “NO.”  I shushed- no dispute!  (Not an easy feat for me.)

I still don't think any sane current affairs journalist would have taken a holiday, even a free one, in Nigeria

.   I must agree on that thought as well, Rosemary.  Who the heck would pay for this holiday- the travel agents?

Sheila- I am so sorry you have been ailing with the flu.  Did you get your flu shot this year?  If I lived nearby I would bring you my famous chicken soup to hasten your recovery.  I think once you get into chapters 4-5 you will begin to see the light.
Take your time; we will be here awaiting news of your return to good health.

[Babi]

 The questions about the Nigerian killers made me remember the dying man who was their leader.
I felt he really despised who he was and what he was doing. He was damned and he deserved it.
I think he offered to spare the girls in return for a sacrifice, hoping Andrew would actually
accept but not believing for a second he would. Sarah's action caught him by surprise. Both
for that reason, and because he didn't really care, he let them go.
 He let the men rape and kill the older girl, though he did not participate himself. After
they had staggered off to a drunken slumber, and Little Bee had made her escape, he walked
into the sea and swam to his death.

 MARIE, I think you're right about Andrew. The man just could not believe in a reality outside
his own safe horizons. If it threatened him, it had to be a scam.

[bookad]

http://www.yourchildlearns.com/mappuzzle/africa-puzzle.html

just wanted to add for interests sake a map of Africa I came across which one times them self against the clock to plug in the countries....when I was in grade 8 we had to complete a free drawing of a continent and draw & name the countries within....I think my map of that time would be unrecognizable with the one on this site--some of the country outlines are very odd shaped I guess by division and re division over the years

Deb

[ALF43]

Deb-
I love puzzles but I can not get the pieces for this one to open.  Is it me or is it the link?

Babi- I think you're right about our gorilla leader.  He had seen enough and felt "de-humanized."

[bellamarie]

Shelia~I am so sorry to hear you have been down with the flu.  I do hope you are feeling better.  I too had difficulty with the first two chapters, I can honestly say I read and reread them at least four times.  Like I said before this book is not an easy read and not for sissies.  lolol

Rosemary~ As far as the pond I can appreciate your concern for young children around them.  I have an in-ground swimming pool in my back yard have a white picket fence and arbor to separate the swimming area from the play area for my day care kids.  I am not a swimmer myself but have no true fear of the kids because I am out there at all times and have the gate locked.  A pond is a bit more difficult to secure although I have friends who have them in their back yards and also have children.  I suppose it all depends on the level of your secureness and also constant supervision if a child and pond are in the same area.  

bookad~ You make an excellent point about the violence in Mexico, yet it seems to not deter tourists to continue to visit.  I personally would go NOWHERE before scoping out the entire safety of the region, and Nigeria with the oil war going on would not have been a decision for me, free or not.  There are in these chapters many inconsistencies as in many books and movies that have the reader going...huh??

I'm still trying to imagine Little Bee tackling "Great Expectations" stowed away on a ship.

Babi~ We were posting at the same time.  I agree the Leader knew he was going to die, and I think he did not want one more death, rape or act of violence on his conscious.  He would not have been able to stop the others so he just decided to take his own life.

Ciao for now~

[bookad]

hi Andy

regarding the puzzle link to the map of Africa

I tried the link and it took me to a page with 4 choices on the left side of i.e. map with outlines
click on choice....then to the right faintly there is  *PLAY*--it is faint and I did not see it the first time I entered this site...but click on that and it should take you to the map of Africa and to the right will be little countries in various colours and you drag the country to the appropriate area on the map of Africa...some of those small countries are tricky....I tried the map without outlines once and it took me quite a while...

hopefully you will be able to link to the puzzle now, it is really interesting especially the more you do it...the countries really stick in your mind

if the above doesn't work for you try copy and paste link into an address bar on your computer

Deb

[straudetwo]

Andy, thank you very much for being here while I was  absent.

It took hours on Tuesday before my vision cleared. The condition has further deteriorated especially in one eye, and it's time to look for optical aids designed for patients with macular degeneration.

On Tuesday night two storms converged over Massachusetts, one coming from the South,
the other one of our notorious,  infamous Nor'easters. The result was horrendous.

We were hit hard, not only in the western region of the Berkshires hear the border with Connecticut, but everywhere in the state, including the entire coast.  It was a wild and woolly night.  B Wednesday morning huge branches were down in the front yard,  and half of one of my cherished rhododendron bushes near the house.  The power as off during the night.  Schools were closed Wednesday and my son did the shoveling - several times over, because it kept snowing ualal day long until 10 at night..  The problem is what to do with the snow - so much was left over from the last storm - and more is on its way.

Thank you for all your posts and links.  Deb, I too was unable to open the map puzzle because I didn't know where the "puzzle piece" is that needs to be dragged to the map.  I'll try again.

It's too late to respond  to all the posts now, but one point needs to be further explored : what happened before the night on the beach.

Cleave gives us to surmise that oil was suspected under the  village where LB and her family lived.  Therefore the village was targeted (but by whom?).  At night came the men, soldiers, and started killing the men.  Who had sent them ? An officially recognized company could have evacuated the people - why this violence and all the secrecy ? Then they burnt down the houses. LB, her sister and a group of women and children escaped into the jungle.  We do not know in whose employ the soldiers acted and operated.  But they must have been told that no one who had been there, seen or heard anything, should be kept alive.

The soldiers were after LB and Nkiruka, whose scent the dogs had picked up.  They could not have known that they'd find white people, guests, on the beach.  I believe they were all Nigerians. The country has been independent since 1960, and there's no reason to believe foreign soldiers would be involved.

On the other hand,  the young guard was hired by the hotel to protect its guests.  That may be all he knew to do.  And he tried desperately  to get Sarah and Andrew away from the beach and back to the (erhaps relative) safety of the hotel.  Because of Andrew's obstinacy it did not happen.  Not only was he arrogant (not to mention foolish) in the extreme, but showed open contempt by taking for granted that money would correct everything, the more the better.

I believe that the leader - whatever he was or for whom he worked, had a sense of honor.  He must have been offended. Sarah understood that they wanted  the girls and she was prepared to save them both,  and that's why she offered her own finger. It clearly surprised the leader.

As I said a while ago, we need to also look at the male characters in the story, including the leader -  to the extent possible. Neither Andrew nor Lawrence are what I consider an honorable man.

Rosemary, I'm glad you're staying with us.

More tomorrow

[salan]

Straude, your comment about "honorable" brings up the question:  What is honorable?  Can an honorable man sometimes behave in a dishonorable manner?  I certainly don't consider the leader honorable.  How could he be honorable and allow the rape and horrific torture of LB's sister?  I think Sarah behaved in an honorable manner by giving her finger, but she doesn't seem honorable in other ways.....Maybe Andrew was honorable, and was tormented by his dishonorable behavior and  That was why he was depressed and eventually took his life. 

Sally

[bellamarie]

Sally~ I'm with you I did not see any honor in the leader's actions. 

The leader took his own life because he knew he was going to die and he chose when, where and how.  I feel he did not participate in the rape and torture because he did not want anymore blood on his own hands.  As for Lawrence, I see no honor in his having an affair behind his wife's back.  And Andrew was in no way honorable, if anything he was foolish, selfish  and yes, stupid to disregard the orders of the guard.  His depression and ultimate suicide was a culmination of him not doing anything to help himself or others.  He knew of the affair and did nothing, he could have done something to save the two girls and his wife on the beach but he did nothing, they returned home and he was depressed and he did nothing to get help for himself.  IMO Andrew was a weak man.  I see suicide as a coward's way out.  Once Little Bee contacted him it seems he could not bare facing her knowing he did nothing to help her or her sister.  The men in this story has not shown me any honor as I perceive it.

Straude~ I'm sorry to hear about your degenerating eye condition.  I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.  We got hit with snow in Ohio but nothing near as much as you are dealing with.  While looking out my windows and seeing the beauty of the white covered trees, I feel for my husband who is a mailman and has to go out and tackle walking in it.

Ciao for now~

[ursamajor]

We have been stuck at thr bottom of our driveway since Monday.  The driveway is a sheet of ice - the man we asked to shovel it said it would take a pick to clear it - and the country road isn't much better.  It is supposed to get warmer Saturday so I hope we can get out without trouble Sunday.  Monday morning my husband is to have his knee replaced and we will probably stay at a motel in town Sunday night.  The problem is that it melts a little in the daytime and then freezes solid at night.  Untypical weather for this part of Tennessee.

[Babi]

 About the risks of that trip to Nigeria, as I recall, both Nigeria
and Britain were denying there was any 'war' going on. The hotel,
the Nigerian tourism people and some others had heavily invested in
that bag of 'freebies'. When trouble sprang up in the area, they
simply decided to keep quiet about it and hire some guards, rather
than lose their investment.

 (There seems to be really atypical weather all over the globe this
winter, URSA. It's seems to be getting steadily worse over the past
few years.  I hope I'm imagining that; it would be rather ominous,
wouldn't it?    )

   Little Bee really brought it home to me, the difficulty of trying to explain the modern world to people whose lives were encompassed by  a small village and the customs of  who-knows-how-many years.
So simple a thing as a wood floor is cause for amazement and wonder.  As she said, it’s like having to  explain everything from first principles.
  She really hit me hard with these words:  “I am telling you, trouble is like the ocean; it covers two-thirds of the world”.    But as I thought about it, I realized that is  probably quite accurate.  What a sorry picture that is.

[JudeS]

I think the author is trying to show how unknowing or innocent (i.e.unexperienced) people learn about the world.
Two naive Britishers took a free holiday to Nigeria and were rudely awakened to what was really happening in that part of Africa . Actually there are even worse countries than Nigeria where the horror is almost unmentionable as in Sudan, Darfur etc.
A little Nigerian girl  learns what horror is as her body matures.  She will never be naive again after what she has experienced. 
it seems the book is how one is able to live with these horrors-knowing they exist nd yet wanting to go on living a good or perhaps meaningful life.
What keeps coming to my mind is Anne Frank and the survivors of the Death camps. How the will to live and overcome  reasserts itself in some people and in others, like Andrew, drives them to suicide.
Some very profound themes under the obvious action on the pages.

[straudetwo]

Sally, I'm so sorry y you had the flu for more than a week but are getting better.

Babi,  it is the extremes in temperature we are seeing worldwide that are worrisome,  like the flooding in Queensland in NE Australia, which is said to be the worst in decades.   Man has come very far, but so far he hasn't learned to tame Mother Nature.

Ursamajor, we will be thinking of you and your husband on Monday when his knee replacement surgery is scheduled. All good wishes.  

Sally, as I was tyig my post he other night I paused over the word "honorable" because it was not quite the adjective I needed or wanted.   For Andrew was really not a man without honor, but rather one devoid of feelings (even for himself) or compassion.  Of course we seem only as a reflection through the eyes of LB and Sarah, the two narrators.

Jude, indeed,  the instinct for survival is one of the strongest we have.  It impelled LB to leave the Ayres' farm shortly after she woke up in the night and found no-name dead. She imagined her sister Nkiruka walking beside her mile after mile, the rest of the night toward the light of the big city.  For her to get that far, after two years in confinement and mostly sedentary,  crossing three-lane highways and climbing over the metal dividers, was a superhuman effort, an act of heroism.

In the Ares' barn Yevette told about the "trick"that got the four girls their release. It involved an immigration officer who ostensibly gave Yevette four history lessons that would be helpful in getting her legitimized, but papers he could not provide. An outrage, for sure, that happens many times all over the world. And what a contrast was the humane action of Mr. Ayres of taking them in, at great risk to himself.

Ella said recently that the story is about relationships. How true. We see it in Chapters 4 and 5.

P.S. Bellamarie,  thank you for your kind thoughts. I'm grateful.

 

[rosemarykaye]

Bellamarie - our postman is a lovely guy - he never minds the snow and ice, does most of his rounds in shorts, and today (gloom, cloud and rain) I saw him in sunglasses.  He is always cheerful and friendly - if I see him down the street and he has already put a "couldn't deliver your parcel" card through my door, he always calls out to me and finds the packet for me.  I do think postmen are fantastic - and I hope we manage to keep our door to door deliveries; when we lived in St John's we just had to collect our letters from a central mailbox place and it was not the same at all.  I hope your husband managed through the snow and ice.

I still remember the postman we had when I was 18, bringing my A-level results to me and waiting to see if they were OK - another very nice man.


Rosemary

[bellamarie]

Rosemary~ Awww I am so happy to hear your postman is a nice person.  I have to share with you that my hubby has been on his walking route for now 28 yrs.  He leaves in the morning with a smile and returns regardless of the weather with a smile.  All the people on his route sing nothing but praises of him.  Many attend our church and when they see him especially the elderly, they light up and have to talk to him.  I know how special my hubby is to me and our family, but I have to say when I see a little child, a teen, a twenty yr old, middle aged or elderly person respond to the kindness he delivers each day to them, I beam with joy to know he truly cares for his patrons.

Now for the next two chapters.....OMG what can I say?  I am devastated at what is revealed.  I just finished reading them and I am so sad I just want to cry.  So Little Bee is not so innocent and like all Bees they have stingers and are willing to use them if need be.   She has cornered Lawrence into being deceptive and break the law for her own survival.  "Oh the webs we weave, as we set out to deceive." I think a better name for Little Bee would have been the black widow spider.  When Charlie asks if someone is a goodie or baddie, and Sarah said in the earlier chapter she is a baddie, well I think its very likely her first instincts are going to prove true. 

These chapters have my head spinning with thoughts of each of the characters and their actions.  Makes me wonder if this book is to teach us a bit about how at some point in our lives when faced with our own survival if we lose who we are to save our self.  They are all trying to save each other in some way, yet they are losing their own selves in doing so.  Gosh does this make any sense at all..............I need to go process these two chapters a bit more.  At this second I have NO sympathy for Little Bee.  I am so disgusted in her part in Andrew's death that I can't find a way to justify what she did.  I know she lost her sister, I know she spent two years in detention and lost all innocence, I know her town was brutally destroyed, I know she realizes the person she has become and is wise to the world in ways to save her own neck, but I am still having a hard time in understanding how it justifies her telling Lawrence everything and involving him in the deception.  She knows at that point she has destroyed his relationship with Sarah. When Sarah walks into the kitchen with Charlie all happy go lucky, I just want to cry for her, knowing what Little Bee has done to her, Andrew, Lawrence and Charlie. 

I don't see any happy endings in this book for anyone at this point......

Ciao for now~

[serenesheila]

Well, today I am finally feeling better.  I was even able to eat regular food, including salad.  Hip, hip, hooray.  I was also able to finish chapters 4 & 5.  So, I am ready to begin the next chapters, tomorrow.

Bella, I enjoyed reading your latest post.  Your hubby sounds to be a good guy!  However, what you share about chapters 4 & 5, are very different than what I remember.  So, I must go back and reread them.  I do not remember LB having a conversaion with Lawrence.  How did I miss that? 

I do feel empathy with LB.  I love her blossuming relationship with Charlie.  Knowing that the reason she called Andrew was being a young woman, raised in another country, and only knowing two people in this country, and being an illegal, making that phone call seems perfectly natural, to me.

Having lived in rural, Southern Italy, in the mid 1960s for several months, I can relate to being in a foreighn cultural.  I had four young children.  We went to the local public market one day, and it began raining, hard.  My children and I took refuge in what I thought was a public cafe.  Later, my American friends laughed and told me I had taken refuge in a house of ill repute.


We drove one weekend o Bari, from near Brindisi.  As we waled along the beach front I noticrd people were turning around to stare at me, with disapproval.  I was dressed in a blouse, and slacks.  At that time, no respectable woman wore slacks in public.

We lived in a triplex.  The owners lived in one third of it, and were building the final third section.  After we came home from grocery shopping , the wife of the owner came to talk with me.  It was Octobeer, and when she saw me taking ou a pumpkin, and began crying "no bouno, no bueno.  She also complained when I thre away some string which had been used to tiesome packages up.  Nothing is to be wasted in Italy.  At lease not in the 1960s.  My way of doing things, was nopt acceptable.

LB's way of doin things was not acceptable in her new       country.

Sheila

[Babi]

Am I behind?  I still have so many notes before we even get to
Little Bee's confrontation with Lawrence.

 (Sarah: speaking of how she comes to take a lover: 
  “To have an affair, I began to realize, was a relatively minor transgression.” Her affair was ‘handing out in-flight meals in a  plane crash”.  The marriage was already in serious trouble, before the mysterious incident at the beach.  It was when she  realized that she had  fallen in love with her lover,  had given him more of herself than she had her husband…that was a major transgression.   She claimed that   “to really escape from Andrew, to really become myself, I had to go the whole way…”   
   She doesn’t explain why she had to escape from her husband to become herself.  Her lifestyle sounds as though she was doing just fine in that arena.  I think this was simply a more acceptable excuse in her own mind than her earlier mood of wanting to ‘show off her wings’.
 

[bellamarie]

Good morning, I hope I did not give too much away, but our assignment for this week is chapters six through nine.  I have only read through chapter seven, so I see I must read two more chapters for the week.  I am using my Nookcolor, but I do believe the chapters are the same as a regular book.

Shelia~Thank you so much for sharing your days in Italy.  I could only wish to spend a week in my homeland.  It sound wonderful!

Have to get ready for church so will check back in later.  I can't wait to hear what everone has to say about these chapters.  So much is revealed...I could not process it all last night.

Ciao for now~

[ALF43]

Babi and Bella- We are indeed reading chapters 6-9 this week but like Babi I feel that there is still some unattended business we've not explored.  I apologize if it is because I've not been in here twice a day as is my usual custom when co-leading a book.
I loved LB explanation of the first time she tasted tea; "She was exported with it."
 And- if scratched one would find that her skin smells of it. I love this writing here: "When I tasted it (the tea that Sarah brought to LB) all I wanted was to get back into the boat and go home again, to my country.  ...Tea is sharp with memory.  It tastes of longing  It tasted of the distance between where you are and where you come from.  Also it vanishes- the taste of it vanishes from your tongue while your lips are still hot from the cup.  it disappears, like plantations stretching up into the mist.  I have heard that your country drinks more tea than any other.  How sad that must make you- like children who long for absent mothers."

Wow- that is one very powerful paragraph.  These analogies  are what drew me to this novel, the writing is wonderful.

[ALF43]

I wonder if the author is a friend of Bono, the lead artist for the British rock band U2 because he mentions that when LBee came out of hiding from the guerillas on the beach,  she heard a radio playing "one" by U2 from a military truck.
Here is a clip from You Tube if you want to hear the song.

ONE

LBee knew the song as it always played in her home.  (That is a stretch to me) but what-ever!  ?

Bono's group is rife with social and political commentary, always introducing new elements into their repertoire and are major motivators of current events.

[ALF43]

Ok- now I'm good with moving on watching LBee drink her tea thinking of everything vanishing and draining away into the sand or mist as Sarah invites her to stay on with her and Charlie.
Babi- feel free to mention anything from any of the previous chapters.  This just gives us a guideline and as you know, many times we return to what we've already read.

Yes, Bella, Sarah takes on a different color in these chapters as does our Little Bee.

[rosemarykaye]

Sheila, how wonderful to have lived in Italy.  I doubt if it has changed much, at least in the countryside - I've been there 3 times and never seen anything wasted.  There is also a much better relationship between older and younger people there than in the UK - when we were in Sienna, whole families would walk around the town in the evenings eating ice cream, and on Sunday they had huge family meals, either at home or in a restaurant, which went on for hours and at which everyone from the tiny babies to the most elderly family members were present.  Although wine was served freely, I  never saw anyone drunk - there was absolutely none of the binge drinking so prevalent in our cities.  My daughter used to have a school friend who came from Bari - her poor mother, who was very young and beautiful, was permanently freezing up here, and delighted when her husband's job was moved to Paris.  Madeleine used to love going to play at Alexandra's house - not least because the food was so delicious  

We also stayed once in a beautiful guest house high up above the Bay of Sorrento - I remember being surrounded by lemon groves, which I had never seen before as it's too cold to grow anything like that here.  We could sit on our balcony in the evening and drink our Peronis whilst looking straight out over the blue Mediterranean.

I know it would be very different to live in Italy - we were just on holiday - but my friend who has moved there permanently loves it so much that they have sold their house here and bought one there; they love the people, the food, the weather, the culture - just about everything.

ALF - I don't know if Chris Cleave does know Bono, but I realised on looking at his website that Cleave is in fact a Guardian columnist - which almost inevitably means that he will be very hip and left wing, and will very likely know the "cool" movers and shakers.

Rosemary

[straudetwo]

Good  Sunday Morning!

Thank you for y our fine posts.

Yes,  Andy and Babi,  I agree that there are more things to consider in Chapters 4 and 5 before we go on because they are essential.  

What happened on the beach is the core, the heart of the story, its raison d'être. The full details of what preceded it, and its aftermath, are only now emerging, slowly. We dn't yet have the full picture.  But we still have half a month -- there's no need to rush.  Pazienza= patience.

And by all means, let's enjoy the fine writing in passages like those Andy and others have quoted. Cleave is wonderful with dialogue.  Sarah's phone conversations with Lawrence late on the day of Andrew's funeral are a marvelous example.   All we need to know about Lawrence is right there.

To be continued

[JudeS]

Alf
Thanks for that lead to the song "ONE" by U2.I had never paid attention to that group before or knew that song.  I listened to two versions of it and picked up on some lines that fit into this story almost as if written for it. The author didn't pick out this song at random but knew the words and was adding some depth to the situation.
Here are the lines I jotted down.

Isit getting better?Do you feel any better?

Did I disappoint you? Leave a bad taste in your mouth?

Oh for forgiveness. Have you come to raise the dead?

There are other interesting lines as well but those stood out as an adjunct to the main plot.  Perhaps a modern Greek chorus? This new experience (listening to U2) gave me a start.They have something to say and young people the world over are listening to them.

[ALF43]

JudeS- I have a good friend that is a U2 fan, she has even followed them to Ireland for concerts, so I have a pretty clear concept of their music.  It just surprised me when I read it in LittleBee.  Why not, I thought, it's a political statement!

Yes, Traude, everyone lost and learned something on that beach, didn't they?  A finger, a soul  and childhood innocence- gone forever.

[straudetwo]

So much to say --

Jude, excellent. The girls back home are indeed like a modern Greek chorus. Thank you.

Sheila, thank you for sharing your memories of Italy. I love the country, I studied  there (in Florence, Perugia and Rome) and I lived in Venice after WW II.  I've been back several times since. What I remember best was a visit in 1989, right after Pink Floyd had given a concert  there on Piazza San Marco and left behind tons of debris.

Bari and Brindisi are both in Puglia (Apulia in Italian), on the south-eastern flank of the Italian boot on the Adriatic coast. The southern states (regioni they are called, and there are 20 of them)  have always been more secluded.  our remarks also reminded me of the book by Carlo Levi, a writer, artist and doctor.  Because of his anti-fascist activism he was exiled to the southern region of Lucania (now called Basilicata).  His memoir  Cristo si è fermato a Eboli = Christ Stopped at Eboli was published in 1945.
I will always treasure my memory of Italy.

Right back

[straudetwo]

The Week in Review in the Sunday NYT had an article by the eminent Chinua Acheve, a native of Nigeria, currently a professor at Brown U. in Rhode Island. The article, on he last page of that section,  is titled Nigeria's Promise, Africa's Hope.  
I have not read all of it yet but will share any insight that will be relevant to this discussion.

Back to our book.
I read the book two months ago, a friend's copy which, needless to say, had to be returned in its spotless condition.  Then I bought my own and can highlight anything I believe is important, to my heart's content.  Then I re-read.

But chapter 4 was more difficult because it is there that the much talked-about-before violence actually occurs. What we read is a reconstruction, but tit does not reduce he impact. the revelation comes on the day of Andrew's funeral,  Charlie's in bed, Sarah wants to know what happened. LB begins and, at some point, At some point LB falls asleep from exhaustion, nd Sarah's memory kicks inUntil then, she'd had been sleepless,  unable to mourn or even cry, numb, fueled by her Gin and Tonics.  This is a tentative opening to reveal pent-up emotions and denial.

With LB asleep, Sarah calls back Lawrence, her lover, himself married with children, a working wife and a sometimes unpunctual nanny, and (still) in no apparent rush to change the status quo. Is this then really a story without a plot? With respect, I'm not so sure.

Some of the facts revealed in Chapter 4 :

* Both Sarah and Andrew are obstinate, Sarah to the point of deliberatemcontrariness
* When her mother counsels Safah not to marry Andrew, because they are too much alike,
they get married even earlier. They honeymoon in Cuba.
* It is Sarah's  doing to take the freebie to Nigeria, despite Andrew's reservations, and she admits (in Chapter 4) that he  agreed because he thought it was the only way for him to keep her.
* Sarah's explanation of how and why Nigeria was chosen is, frankly,  unconvincing .
Even so,  this is Cleave' story and we have committed to discussing what is there, whether we like it or not.

I'll get to Chapter  tomorrow,  pazienza per piacere.

[Babi]

If my page numbers are correct, my current comments should be from
Ch. 6. I think I'm caught up.

  What caught my attention on the argument between Sarah and
 Andrew was the comment that  “It was less like a discussion and more like a terrible mix-up at the printers.”  I’ve observed that  marital arguments often seem like that.  The parties involved aren’t really hearing each other at all.  They are each airing the things that have upset them most and the replies of each seem to have little, if any, relevance to what the other has said.

  I found it really disturbing that after an abortive phone call with Lawrence, Sarah lost control and smashed the cake she had just  finished making for Charlie.  The cake had been an act of love.  Sure, she made another cake, but she could have taken out her frustrations on something else.   I cannot imagine myself attacking  the cake I had just made for a beloved child.  That really strikes a wrong note for me.

[rosemarykaye]

Babi - I cannot imagine myself attacking any cake (except with a cake fork that is...) 

R

[ALF43]

ahaahaaaaaaaa I echo that one Rosemary.
Yes, Babi, you're in the right spot.  I kind of chuckled though, when Lawrence introduced Andrew to Sarah (with his arm around her.)  OOPS
The priest was sure the two of them would get on, too.

 I wonder why Sarah never really adored Andrew or felt fulfilled with him yet she was able to let herself go completely with Lawrence.  Was it because he was so self-deprecating, do you think?  She told us that to escape Andrew and become herself she had to "go the whole way."  But why Lawrence? He seems like such a sop, even if he did provide Sarah with the thrill of parties, meeting new folks and "feeling irresistible".
 
  "...there are circumstances in which we will allow men to enter our bodies but not our homes."
Holy smokes, I was single for 12 years and dating I wouldn't even let a guy pick me up at the house.  I didn't want any guy knowing where I lived, much less bringing him to my bed.

[bellamarie]

Babi~ I agree, I was a bit shocked when I read her attacking the cake.  Chapter 6 has really unnerved me.  Maybe I need a cake to attack.  lolol

I am freaked out at how devious and calculated Little Bee is in this chapter.  I realize she is out for her own survival but my goodness to play with Andrew's mind the way she did in the garden was down right freaky and inhuman.  She could tell the man was in bad shape, yet she played with his mind by appearing and disappearing.  I can't figure out if she was getting her revenge on him for not saving Nikura her older sister.  I never warmed up to Little Bee from the beginning of this book, and now I totally dislike the person she is.  Can you even imagine having someone like her living in your home and getting close to your young child.  I seriously think she would use Charlie if she felt threatened by Sarah turning her in.  She is a desperate refugee and I think she will stop at nothing to save herself.  Just the idea of all the thoughts of how to committ suicide if the men come scares me, but now imagine her thinking of the many ways to harm Lawrence or Sarah if they turn on her.  Ewwww this book is really creeping me out after reading chapter 6.

Ciao for now~

[deems 2]

I am confused as to where we are in the discussion.  It turns out I am not very good at reading books in parts.  I tend to read a book straight through given the chance.  Anyway, I read six through nine, I think, and then had to keep going because of how nine ended.  And now I have all kinds of end-of-the-book issues running though my mind.  That's neither here nor there.

But I agree with you absolutely, Alf.  Lawrence is a sop.  If Sarah was feeling beaten down by Andrew's personality and opinions, maybe Lawrence was a bit of a relief.  But ick.

Babi mentions Little Bee speaking of trouble.  "'You have seen trouble too, Sarah. You are making a mistake if you think it is unusual.  I am telling you, trouble is like the ocean.  It covers two thirds of the world.'"  Previously Sarah has said, "Whenever I need to stop and remind myself how much I once loved Andrew, I only need to think of this.  That the ocean covers seven tenths of the earth's surface, and yet my husband could make me not notice it."  I am wondering what else is like the ocean.  Borderless, expansive, far reaching, uncontained. 

[JudeS]

Deems
What can stretch forever and is borderless and uncontained is  a person's imagination.  Not everyones perhaps, but many peoples.
Children are especially good at imagining unless an adult succeeds in "curing" them of their fantasies.

[straudetwo]

Beautifully put, Jude.

Deems 2, according to the schedule, chapters 6 to 9 are being discussed this week.
In re-reading the book I have lingered over certain questions, some of them unresolved, perhaps unresolvable, like the meaning of the finger, for example.

I too prefer reading a book in its entirety but do adhere to the discussion schedule when one is set.
This discussion we are hampered by the editors' warnings "not to tell", an unusual enjoinder.  The chronological sequence of events is made clearer in a subsequent chapter, which can be confusing at first.  Some coincidences seem contrived.  For me it is hardest to  get a "feel" for Andrew; we simply don't know enough about him.

On to Lawrence tomorrow.

[rosemarykaye]

Andrea - I couldn't agree more.  How could she sleep with Lawrence in her own house/bed, knowing that Charlie was next door?  She says she has reservations about it, but she proceeds to do it just the same.  I always feel I am very straight-laced about things like this, so I'm glad you feel the same.  And as for Lawrence - yes, yuck.  He doesn't give a damn about his poor wife ("I wish I loved my wife" - how pathetic is that?  Next he'll be saying she "just doesn't understand me", when she probably understands him all too well.)  He says he has come to help - what claptrap, he has just turned up because he thinks there's a chance of sex.  And all this self-deprecating nonsense - IMO it's only men who actually think they're quite hot who try this approach; he really thinks he's entitled to deceive and betray his wife and family because he fancies a few nights with Sarah.  Yet at the same time he goes on and on about the "high principles" he must adhere to because of his Home office job.  Gosh, everyone in this book wants their own way, don't they?  They all behave like 4 year olds, not just Charlie.  Haven't got up to the bit about Little Bee/Lawrence/Andrew yet, so can't comment till later - but have a dr's appointment this afternoon and if the wait is anything like it usually is, I'll have ample time to catch up.

Got to go to work now - it's a bit of a shock to the system working 2 full weeks after all these months of 2 afternoons a week!

R

[ALF43]

Rosemary- You take a rest, put your feet up (with our book of course) and we'll await your return.
I agree with your assessment of Lawrence's self-deprecating nonsense.  He sounds as if he wants everyone to "build him up." with the old poor me attitude.I can not stand people like that who continually belittle and frown upon themselves.  
GET OVER YOURSELF!

Deems- I, too, have a tendency to swhish right through a book- I want to know what happens to everyone and am not patient to out wait a discussion schedule.  My book will sit there and call me.  I reread only the assigned chapters just before we discuss them so that I don't divulge anything further.  
Lawrence going to a management course?  He even bought the kids toys for a gift when he returned.  I bet his wife did a cart wheel when he left with suitcase in hand.

Bella- Little Bee did not freak me out.  I have a different view of her..  Again, keeping in mind this is a sixteen year old who has witnessed death, destruction and mutilation.  So Andrew choosing to free himself from his misery , she took in stride.  Yes, she was vengeful, blaming Andrew for the death of Nkiruka. She tells the threatening Lawrence at the breakfast table that in her world death will come chasing.  In your world it will start whispering in your ear to destroy yourself.
That is a powerful assessment of her view on death.
Death is just a way of life, to LBee.  As she admitted to Lawrence, she was in "his country for two years and learned his rules, now she is more like him than herself now."  
I love that thought.

[Babi]

 I definitely don't want to think about cake today. Val and I
pigged out Sunday, and I've been paying for it. 

 MARIE, I didn't get the impression that Little Bee was 'playing
with Andrew's mind'. She was nervous and frightened, and seeing
Andrew's reaction to her appearance she hardly knew what to do.
Running back to her hiding place seemed natural to me. Yet, she
had to make contact so she tried again. I doubt she could have known
or understood how precarious Andrew's mental balance was at that
point.

We can’t just think of  LB as a sweet, helpless teenager.  She’s been through too much.  I had to remind myself of that when she told Lawrence, “Please do not imagine I would forgive you, Lawrence. I would make sure I hurt you..”    It took me by surprise.   Then she adds, “I have been in your country two years ,  I learned your language and I learned your rules.” 
  This whole interview with Lawrence was harrowing.  She tells us what Andrew was like at the end of his life. “He was angry all the time. He would not play with Charlie.  When Sarah talked, he just shrugged his  shoulders or shouted.  But when he was alone he did not stop shrugging or shouting.  He would stand all alone at the end of the garden and  talk to himself, and sometimes he would shout at himself., or hit himself on the side of the head with his fist., like this.  He cried a lot.”

[JudeS]

Babi,
The description of Andrew at the end is of a man who is in a deep depression and should have been hospitalized since he was a danger to himself.
Sara is so self involved nd still traumatized by what happened on the beach that she can't be the wife Andrew needs.
Both these people are fighting there own demons and have little energy left over for each others needs.
Sara puts any little thought she can spare into Charlie, who feels his parent's weknesses but can't understand them.  He latches onto Batman as a source of goodness and hope. Batman fights the "baddies" and wins.
 
Batman has become a major figure of identification for many small children in America as well. Their powerlessness over their circumstances in life make Batman a source of goodness and strength.  Someone who can prop them up when needed.

As far as Lawrence is concerned-Sara is using him as a comfort blanket.  He can care for her in a way Andrew is no longer capable of because of his deep depression.  To sit in judgement of her actions takes away from the power of the narrative.

[Ella Gibbons]

Are we on Chapters Six and Seven now?

Like a few of you posted, I have read through to the end but will refrain - restrain myself from posting further than assigned chapters; it spoils the conversation if one does, I know.

I don't know if Andy, Traude, posted this previously, but it is one of the author's notes.  Take a look at the Facilities here and see if anything, ANYTHING, resembles Little Bee's experience at the detention center:

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/aboutus/organisation/immigrationremovalcentres/

One comment Little Bee made concerning when she was a small girl and did not "miss having a future because I did not know I was entitled to one."   She says she was very young then and looking back how often does a young child think like that?  Doesn't ring true.  When does a child become interested in a future?  

[bellamarie]

Babi~ MARIE, I didn't get the impression that Little Bee was 'playing
with Andrew's mind'.

I am not so sure I can agree with you Babi, she describes watching Andrew for days and knowing he was depressed and out of his mind.  I for some reason can not give Little Bee the compassion the rest of you have for her.  She seems very cold and calculated.  I would be scared to death having someone like her in my  home.  She made it clear to Lawrence she would do what ever she had to do to stop anyone from sending her back to Nigeria.  I sense danger here and I fear it is for Sarah, Lawrence and Charlie.  I hope I am wrong, but even taking into account for her life experiences, tragedies, etc., I think those are even more-so the reason she could be dangerous if she felt threatened.

Andy~This quote I see more of a threat when she tells Lawrence....“I have been in your country two years ,  I learned your language and I learned your rules.”   I hear she is saying, you better play by my rules or else I will blow you out of the water.


It seems our author has made each of our characters multidimensional, even to a point of contradictory to their words and actions.  I must share that I read part of an interview Cleave had with a book club and he did tell them that Charlie is based on his own four yr. old who he watched and noted his obsession with Batman.  Not unhealthy, just normal young child being a hero worshipper.

I don't think Cleave has given us enough to understand why Sarah chose to be unfaithful to Andrew.  Why she says she could finally be herself and give all of herself with Lawrence.  I suppose when any married person chooses to committ adultery they can find fault with their spouse to justify their own weaknesses and behavior.  The whole scene on the floor/desk sex act just seemed so contrite for me.  I read it and found myself going....Really???  Sarah seems shallow and impulsive to me, she seems to have relied on Andrew for her compass and strength and now that he is not there she seems to be too trusting and naive.  I just would never let a stranger come into my home and get that close to my child under any circumstances.  

Ciao for now~