Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society - by Shaffer & Barrows

[bellamarie]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

The year is 1946.  Juliet Aston, a writer looking for her next book subject, finds herself "gloomier than she ever was during the war."  Quite out of the blue she finds her subject, one  that will change her life, with the arrival of a letter from a member of a book club in Guernsey, a British Channel island occupied by the Nazis during the war.

Discussion Schedule: Feb. 1-7   *Letters -- January 8, 1946 - March 1, 1946 Feb. 8-14    *Letters -- March 2, 1946 - May 13, 1946 Feb. 15-21   *Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946 Feb. 22-28     *Letters -- July 17, 1946 - Sept. 17, 1946

Feb. 15-21    Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946

1.  How had the Islanders adapted to the presence of the volatile German soldiers,  sometimes friendly,  sometimes brutal?   Can the Occupation soldiers be trusted?  Ever?
2.  What do you think of the Guernsey girls who took favors from the Germans and turned in John Booker for a new lipstick?  Can you see Elizabeth McKenna falling in love with one of the  them?
3. Is Elizabeth MeKenna a believable character to you?  Do you have a favorite "Elizabeth"  anecdote?
4. What did you think of  Mark's reasons for believing he and Juliet are right for one another?  Is it significant that she tells him not to come to Guernsey, but is delighted that Sidney is coming?
5. Why does Juliet think Dawsey looks like Charles Lamb?  Do you see  him as a possible "swain" for Juliet? 
6.  Can Isola slip an elixir into Sidney's coffee powerful enough to  overcome the obstacle between him and Juliet?  From Bronte to Austen in one cozy weekend with Sidney?
7. Is the name of the  "Dead Bride" game whichJuliet and Kit are playing significant to you?
8. What shocking news does Remy Girard's letter convey to the members of the literary society?   
9. Can you share the episodes that made you smile during this tragic period?

Related Links: Author's Biography; Visit Guernsey ;   A history of Guernsey during the German Occupation 1940 - 1941 ; Charles Lamb - Selected Essays ; the letters of Seneca

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP and Pedln

Bellamarie: BarbStAubrey,

"Bellamarie I wish we were where we could pickup our cup of coffee or tea or glass of wine, nod and go on to the next bit of wonderment that we will be discovering while reading this book."

I prefer Lambrusco, Salute' 

[JoanP]

Good morning, everyone!  So many items on the table in here for today - and I would like to address your comments of yesterday on the purpose of this book -

a.  Elizabeth's story, her role in protecting and sustaining the oppressed during the occupation.
b.  Juliet's story,  writing a book about how  individuals coped with the Occupation
c.  The members of the literary society and how reading and discussing books sustained them during the days of the occupation and afterwards.
d.  Other

It seems we need to expand the OTHER category, doesn't it?

I think it is more likely that Mary Ann's fundamental purpose was to bring the fact of the German Occupation of Guernsey to the attention of a new audience such as ourselves. I believe she felt this little piece of WWII history was neglected in literature and needed to be aired - and she chose the medium of an epistolary novel to tell the tale. Gumtree

The germans reacted a bit differently than their normal occupation. I think because they were not fighting all the time. A closed society is always interesting  Steph

Steph, I think this is probably what motivated Mary Ann Shaffer to research and take all those notes on the occupation of the Channel Islands back in 1980...and inspired the rest of the book.  I would like to read more about this "closed society" and the effects it had on both the occupied and the occupiers.  I would really like to get my hands on the collection of interviews in the book Annie Barrows mentioned in her response to Pedln  - The Diary of the German Occupation of Guernsey by JC Sauvery.

A book starts out as one thing and after a while gathers its own momentum and often includes ideas that the author hadn't planned at the outset. sometimes the characters themselves demand to say things that the author writes but is surprised by.  Jude

Jude, I love your observation.  A book does take on a life of its own once it enters the hands of the reader, doesn't it?

Yesterday, bellamarie posted a quote from the author -

- The wonderful thing about books—and the thing that made them such a refuge for the islanders during the Occupation—is that they take us out of our time and place and understanding and transport us, not just into the world of the story, but into the world of our fellow-readers, who have stories of their own. Annie Barrows

Gum, such a relief to welcome you back.  The fact that your heart isn't really into it is understandable.  The arson fires were despicable, as Traudee said last night - but the brush fires remain such a cause of concern.  Is the lack of rain normal for this time of year?  Is there a rainy season in the near future? 
Perhaps your participation here can succeed in transporting you from the present situation, a "refuge" at least for a little while

I find myself pondering Elizabeth's actions - after reading your post yesterday, Barbara.  I too see Elizabeth reacting to incidents of injustice, who called her actions "reckless" yesterday - was it you, bellamarie?  Surely leaving Kit motherless (and fatherless) was not taken into consideration when she took it on herself to stop the beating of her fellow prisoner. 
Such a fine line between justice and charity!  It is hard to tell what Elizabeth's motivations were.  This may be because we don't hear from Elizabeth herself, as we do the others in their letters. 
Unlike you, JoanR, I am not sitting in Lurkers' Corner eating Will Thisbee's pie just yet - haven't learned what more might be revealed in the final quartile of the book about Elizabeth.  (Look forward to hearing from all of our LURKERS soon!)

[JoanP]

Juliet is still a work in progress.  Gum

Oh, I do agree with you, Gum!  What will the authors do with this character, once she completes her book?  Will she stay - settle down, marry Dawsey maybe?  I don't think that Mark has a chance anymore - notice how she is "pretending" that he doesn't exist anymore.  Besides, he has a new rumba partner now, doesn't he?

But what about Sidney?  I think that Juliet and Sidney are on the same wavelength - would make the ideal pair - if indeed Juliet will "pair" with anyone. Babi , Sidney's reaction to the news of Elizabeth's death really shows how much the people on Guernsey mean to him - nearly as much as they do to Elizabeth, don't you think?

 Has anyone ever heard of the "Dead Bride Game" Juliet and Kit enjoy playing?  Why is it mentioned here?  Does it refer to Juliet  - her relationship with Mark is now dead in the water, she will turn down his proposal?  Or does it suggest that marriage, walking down the aisle as a bride is just not in the cards for Juliet?

I keep remembering that the authors haven't put any references without meaning in these pages...

Have a fine day everyone - especially you, Gum!

[Babi]

BELLAMARIE, thanks for the quote from Annie Barrows about the purpose of the book. That is not something we could have know just from the book itself, though the book certainly succeeds in that objective.
  About charity,...of course it is a virtue.  I think Joan's point is that it is a
socially valued and praised virtue, whereas those who fight against social injustices generally find themselves with many enemies.

Q.

Is it significant that she tells him not to come to Guernsey, but is delighted that Sidney is coming?

  Indeed, I think it is very significant.  I believe Juliet knows that Mark would not fit in well in Guernsey, would not respect or enjoy her friends there.  Which is as much as to say, IMO, that Mark would not fit well in Juliet's life, either.  Sidney has already shown how much he cares about the people Juliet is meeting. Both Sidney and Juliet's new friends will be delighted with one another.
That is not to say I consider Sidney a marriage prospect for Juliet...not at all.
Sidney's closest relationship, other than his sister, of course, is his poet friend.

 A couple of letters that I think deserve a mention:  Juliet wrote to Sidney about Jonas' Skeeters 'presentation' to the club. I must object to Jonas Skeeter calling Marcus Aurelius ‘an old woman-forever taking his minds temperature’.   I happen to like Marcus Aurelius ’Meditations’. He was an introspective person, as I am.  Hasn’t it been said that the unexamined life isn’t worth living?
  I grant you there was one period in my life when I carried self-examination too far, questioning my motives on everything I did.  Being a balanced person, however, I soon realized this and called a halt. 
  I did have to giggle, tho’, when Jonas said,  “Bloody hen that he was, he never had a tiny thought that he couldn’t turn into a sermon.”
 
Then,  a letter from a Henry Toussant, describes the drowning of the women from the German brothel, apparently all conscripted from conquered countries, just as the slave labor was. Mr. Toussant describes the deplorable attitude of his aunt and mother on this occasion and his outraged reaction.  I read with great satisfaction the line: “My aunt says she will never set foot in our house again, and Mother hasn’t spoken to me since that day. I find I all very peaceful.”

[pedln]

Oh my, come late to the party and you miss all the fun.

First of all, I’m so glad to see JoanR and Gumtree again.  That’s a terrible situation in your country, Gum, and you must heartsick about it.  I hope all will be well for your family in the area.  JoanR, glad you got Ebeneezer.  I’ll ask my girls to check it out from NYPL or Brooklyn during my next visit.

Barbara, welcome.  So glad you finally got here.  It’s always good to have another opinion that we can agree with or disagree with or agree to disagree with.

Dead Bride.  I love the Dead Bride game.  I won’t say it doesn’t mean anything, but I think it’s one of those typical made-up-by-four-year-olds games, based on what they know.  I won’t even speculate on Kit’s visions or ideas of death.  But little girls love weddings (my grandd went to one and nothing would do but she had to have a wedding dress) and somewhere our bright little Kit has heard of or seen a bride.  But what a lovely game to play with Juliet because it gets Kit lots of attention, Juliet acts so funny and goofy (according to Kit) and all ends with big hugs.  It’s one way that Kid lets Juliet know she likes her.

JoanP, do  you think Juliet cares that Mark has a new rhumba partner/

Going back to and thinking about Gum’s statement   

I think it is more likely that Mary Ann's fundamental purpose was to bring the fact of the German Occupation of Guernsey to the attention of a new audience such as ourselves.

I certainly think that was one of the purposes. Like the island of Mr. Pip, Guernsey (and the other Channel Islands) fell through the cracks in regard to their governing parents.  Great Britain demilitarized the Channel Island 13 days before they were attacked (and then neglected to inform Germany that there would be no opposition so they wouldn’t need to attack.)

According to Bunting, after liberation there was a lot of criticism of the islanders, that they didn’t behave like true Britains.  They didn’t fight, they had no resistance, there was collaboration, fraternization, they tried to get along or accommodate.  The islanders felt this was unjust, that they had behaved in the best way they could, and tended to close ranks against outsideres.  Adelaide was a pain, but this may be part of why she was so against Juliet coming.

I think Shaffer was finding many reasons or purposes for this book, as have been mentioned about.  This is almost like a book within a book.  We have Mary Ann’s book, and now Juliet’s book that is trying to take shape.

[bellamarie]

JoanP,

I too see Elizabeth reacting to incidents of injustice, who called her actions "reckless" yesterday - was it you, bellamarie?  Surely leaving Kit motherless (and fatherless) was not taken into consideration when she took it on herself to stop the beating of her fellow prisoner.

I asked the question, would anyone consider her reckless and irresponsible, considering she had a small child who would be effected by her actions.  I guess for some, when they are in the throws of a situation, they don't have the logic to stop and think of the consequences.  Elizabeth seemed to be a person who acted on implulse and emotion from a small child into her adulthood.  She took many risks.  Not that I am judging or criticizing her, because we need people like Elizabeth in the world.  They generally are remembered, as "the fallen heroes."
 

Such a fine line between justice and charity!  It is hard to tell what Elizabeth's motivations were.  This may be because we don't hear from Elizabeth herself, as we do the others in their letters.  JoanP

JoanP, Very good point.  We can only bring our own personal thoughts and feelings, into trying to deduce her motivations.

Babi, You are very welcome, and interesting observation..."whereas those who fight against social injustices generally find themselves with many enemies."  Or dead, in many cases, as in Elizabeth's.

I wondered where Mary Ann came up with the Dead Bride game, and because she got so much of her ideas from books she read, I went on a google, yahoo, dogpile hunt.  Here is the only thing I could find remotely to image her reading related to a Dead Bride. lolol 

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0604201h.html

I picked a few paragraphs, it is amusing enough to read the entire story.

THE DEAD BRIDE
by  Anonymous
Translated from the French (1812) by Marjorie Bowen

I could only learn of a wild anecdote. This 'Dead Bride' had lived in the valley in the fourteenth or fifteenth century. She was a noble lady who had conducted herself towards her lover with such ingratitude and perfidy that he died of chagrin. In the conclusion, when she was about to be married to someone else he appeared on her wedding night and she died. The legend was that the spirit of this unhappy creature wandered on the earth as a penance and took all manner of forms, particularly those of charming creatures, to render lovers unfaithful. As it was not permitted to her to re-clothe herself in the appearance of a living person she appeared under the disguise of girls lately deceased and if possible under the shape of one who resembled her the most.

"It was for this reason that her formless ghost haunted the château where she had once lived, and, if occasion offered, took on the likeness of a dead young girl of the house to which she had once belonged. She was also said to haunt galleries and museums in search of dead beauties whose charms she could assume for the undoing of some living, faithful lover. These dismal pilgrimages were to be repeated in punishment for her perfidy until she found the man so faithful that she was not able to induce him to forget his living betrothed. This had not yet occurred.

"No, he must have returned, we have seen no one. He has disappeared," said the officer, smiling, and he forced them to search every place in the room. But this was useless. The whole house was turned upside down in vain, and on the morrow the officer left Bad Nauheim without his prisoner, and much chagrined.
__________________________

Okay, its a stretch of the imagination, but I did find it amusing.  Gollywogs and Dead Bride games.  She sure can keep us on our toes. 

[BarbStAubrey]

The Dead Bride game was a new one on me - it did remind me of playing "Hot Potato" which involved hiding, usually a can of beans but some sort of food in a jar or can and as everyone searched the one hiding would call out if the seekers were hot or cold based on  how close to the object - and then who ever found it was smothered in hugs and kisses accompanied by a great deal of giggling. Come to think of it the game always ended when mom started the evening meal because the "Hot Potato" was needed for the meal. 

A realization I had last night is where I do not know if this is a purpose I do see it as a Theme and that is everyone is dealing with Loss. Juliet looses her parents when only a child, there is the loss of freedom, food, communication, livelyhood, pets, homes destroyed, Books and Libraries destroyed, the loss of family members, anonymity, till Elizabeth looses her life - some loses were chosen as Booker watched the boat to Britain leave without him just as Elizabeth stayed too long to be with Jane - I see much of the story built around how the various characters deal with loss so that even we the readers are brought into the loss.  I do not know about y'all but when Elizabeth was put to death I cried tears - it has been years since I actually cried while reading a book.

[BarbStAubrey]

A Post Script on Charity versus Justice - I assumed it was a driving issue all over the nation but maybe not - many of us here are part of a group called Christians for a Fair Economy and we take our lead from the Institute for Policy Studies which turns Ideas into Action for Peace, Justice and the Environment.

Here is their web site: http://www.ips-dc.org/

With that initiative a local artist has created a Silk Screen Tiger in shades of black to gray with dark green eyes and an interesting shaped background to the Tiger with the words Justice - Justice Shalt Thou Pursue. My friend turned the Silk Screen into cards that on the back is printed a quote from Judges -  Deuteronomy, 16:18-20

These cards are wonderful bookmarks and have been sent to all the local community leaders and many of the State Legislators and anyone in the news who is acting to make change that will affect the future. Therefore, the concept we learned as children about giving a man a fishing pole rather than a fish is very much on my mind and I saw Elizabeth initiating even on the most personal level encouragement for folks to handle their future. Example: the courage Eli needed to use for his years in England rather than just a hug to see to his immediate fears and the belief that Sally would grow into her elegant nose rather than handling her immediate concern over her shaved and lanced head and even the Literary Society was developed as an ongoing meeting rather than a one night event. And so that is behind how I saw Elizabeth reacting with Justice.

[BarbStAubrey]

Just read the information you found Bellamarie on the Dead Bride -  interesting - and in some ways it reminds me of the story so popular in this part of the country with our High Mexican population of La Llorona -  in fact it was only a couple of years ago they had to call school off for over week in Lockhart, a community just south of Austin because the girls were sure La Llorona was in the girls bathroom - the fear was  unbelievable and they would not use the Bathroom and then the mothers cooberated the fear so the school had to close down and the bathroom was remodeled.

La Llorona grabs children and drowns them - http://www.literacynet.org/lp/hperspectives/llorona.html

[bellamarie]

BarbStAubrey,  

I do not know about y'all but when Elizabeth was put to death I cried tears - it has been years since I actually cried while reading a book.

Oh my goodness, I read about Elizabeth's death on Valentine's day. I had to get ready to go out to dinner and a movie, with my hubby, and I could barely motivate myself to be happy.  I was so filled with sadness and melancholy, I wrote to Annie Barrows, which did make me feel better.  The next day, no one was commenting on the death, and  I just felt so alone in my sadness.  I assumed everyone must be dealing with this in their own silence.  This book is going to stay with me long after this discussion closes.  The descriptive cruelty in these pages, this week, has been far beyond my comprehension.  I am the "idealist teacher', the romantic, and avoid movies and books that leave these images in me.

Barb, Thank you for a more clearer understanding, on your views of justice.  I feel you, and I reacted from a place, we are most familiar, and dear to.  Interesting article on La Llorona.

pedln,

I think Shaffer was finding many reasons or purposes for this book, as have been mentioned about.  This is almost like a book within a book.  We have Mary Ann’s book, and now Juliet’s book that is trying to take shape.

This is exactly how I feel, and what prompted me to email Annie, asking if she had considered writing Juliet's book, as a sequel to this one.  Of course I completely understand her saying, "As the story originated with my aunt, I feel that a sequel would be an invasion." 

[JudeS]

Barb
As I was walking away from the computer last night I realized that I had forgotten to include the words of John Donne. Thank you for doing it for me.

Gumtree-
The horrors of the fires were for us in California just a reminder of the fires we have experienced here.  Those that took many lives and disturbed so many other lives. Life does go on and I hope they find the arsonists .  If they are not caught they are all too likely to set further fires. Sometimes a fire is set by a silly prankster but most serious fires are set by arsonists, about 80% of whom have been sexually abused as children. I don't want to go into the psychological reasons for this but, having worked with juvenile fire setters, they need massive amounts of therapy and have to be locked up while receiving it.  Even then the chances for improvement aren't perfect.

Back to the novel-
For me, Elizabeth has not come alive, except in the person of her daughter. Perhaps the last quarter of the story will change my mind.  Most novels have figures in them that are there to move the action forward while they , themselves
are not important to the present happenings.  With so many vibrant personalities flitting about, Elizabeth recedes into history-having played her part and departed. That is not to say that her part was unimportant.

Jude

[mabel1015j]

When i read of Elizabeth's last act, i tho't she knew she was going to die in the prison camp in some way. She has acted against injustice thruout the story as Barbara commented,  so she would act in this situation, maybe choosing her reason, and time, of death. .................... jean

[pedln]

Bellamarie has sent me looking for more dead brides.  And they abound in literature, so I think that Kit, hiding under the table at the Literary Society meetings heard all kinds of things, no doubt including some that she shouldn’t.  But kids adapt things to what they understand or know.

These lines are by George Eliot.

"Am I not thine alone, a dear dead bride
Who blest thy lot above all men's beside?"

Jason had a dead bride, murdered by a jealous Medea.

[JoanP]

Jude, I have to agree with you - Elizabeth seems almost mythical to me, not a living woman,  mother, who would risk nothing as dangerous as this if she had been thinking of her daughter at all.   As I understand what happened, she had witnessed one beating too many (this couldn't have been the first time) and lost it.   I'm not even sure I'd call her action "heroic "  Did she think she would save the girl if she intervened?
She must have known what would happen to her if she intervened.   

WE learned of the inhumanity of these German guards - compared to those on Guernsey.  Seeing so much pain and suffering must have turned them into unfeeling beasts.  Remember when Dawsey described Christian - "a German who felt pain."

Jean, why did you think that Elizabeth knew she was going to die in the camp?  She almost made it through - one more month and she would have been liberated!  I suspected something like this had happened to her in the prison because she still wasn't  back in Guernsey a year later when everyone else was coming home.

I didn't cry as some of you did...my reaction was more like Sidney's, I think.  It was shocking, I'll admit.   Have you noticed just how many characters in this story lost a parent? I think I was  so affected by Kit's loss - having lost my own mother at the age of 7 in July, 1945.  It's true, isn't it?  You bring your own story to your reading. I couldn't - and still don't forgive Elizabeth.

Unless there is further revelation in the last section, I do  believe think Elizabeth has played her part and the stage now belongs to Juliet.
Christian Hellman will not return and marry Elizabeth.  No bride here.

I am enjoying the Dead Bride stories -   but still wonder why the author chose this particular game  for this  particular story. 

[JoanP]

 

I happen to like Marcus Aurelius ’Meditations’. He was an introspective person, as I am.  Hasn’t it been said that the unexamined life isn’t worth living? Babi

Babi, I don't know anyone who reads Marcus Aurelius - I'm intrigued.  when and how did you become interested?  I'm going to look up something on  old Marcus right now.

Here is a link to some Quotations taken from Marcus Aurelius'  Meditations

"I believe Juliet knows that Mark would not fit in well in Guernsey, would not respect or enjoy her friends there.  Which is as much as to say, IMO, that Mark would not fit well in Juliet's life."

Babi, are you so sure Juliet wants to remain in Guernsey?  London is her life.  The only life she knows.   Can she make up her mind that she wants to remain on Guernsey  after such a brief stay?   Do the Guernsey people fill a void in her life?
I suppose it is safe to say that she doesn't want to marry Mark.  She's pretending he doesn't exist... Does he get the message? 

[bellamarie]

JoanP,

Christian Hellman will not return to marry Elizabeth.  No bride here.

Are you certain, he won't return?  The people of Guernsey, just found out about Elizabeth's death.  What are the chances, Christian could return to Guernsey, hoping to find Eliabeth still alive and wanting to marry her?  I haven't read the final pages, so I am going on a possibility.  I am certain Juliet will NOT go back with Mark, and Sidney is out of the running, since he has announced to Isola he is gay, (which I asked early on did anyone else suspect it when he was with Piers).  As I stated early, I don't see a happily ever after marriage in the cards for Juliet. I don't see her and Dawsey together, raising Kit, living in Guernsey.  As I mentioned earlier, the unattainable love, is still my suspicions, where Juliet is concerned.

When I read of Elizabeth's last act, i tho't she knew she was going to die in the prison camp in some way. She has acted against injustice thruout the story as Barbara commented,  so she would act in this situation, maybe choosing her reason, and time, of death. .................... jean

Jean, I think for whatever reason, you are correct, I do think Elizabeth did choose her own time of death.  She had to know she would be killed to step up and challenge the actions of the soldiers, especially in front of other prisoners.  Those soldiers were less then human, unlike the ones she stepped up to, in Guernsey, and lied to about the Literary Society.  She had to know the end results, if she did this.  None of her risks she chose to take, seemed to factor in Kit. 

[BarbStAubrey]

I am not sure she was thinking or calculating her chances of any outcome, - I think she just snapped - I think for self-preservation she swallowed all she could and then like a nation that Revolts she could take no more and call herself human -

I think we all have our snapping point and for each of us it is probably over a different cause - reading this it is hindsight to think she only had to wait a month - we know history - Elizabeth had no idea of time - all that was left was place - everything that would identify her to herself was removed - she had no earthly possessions, little health, the lack of food and proper sleep does awful thing to your mental capacity to even think coherently - all she had to hang onto and call herself human was her driving force and seeing that denied for her own safety she could no longer tolerate.

I see this bit of the story as part of what drives them all - the community is greater than the individual - Elizabeth represents the community of man living within limits, boundaries, defined by a dignity towards each other.

If this is a story about how folks get through the war, adversity, the choices they make - then I can see the actions of each character being an end unto themselves - but if we see this story in which characterizations are one of the devises used to offer us a deeper meaning, the over arching message of the book - then the actions of each character are only messages like breadcrumbs dropped in the forest leading us to the deeper meaning of this story.

So far I am coming away with a meaning for this story centered around handling loss and examples of living through collective adversity involving loss [when there is no cavalry coming over the hill] with a commitment to community replacing a personal life.

In addition, I cannot quite put it all together however, I see Elizabeth as a caricature of Britain - they befriended Hitler; they bucked up during their ordeal; they sacrificed cities and historical building; they hung on but would not give up their resilient spirit, their autonomy, and belief in their values. 

I am seeing the authors they each chose to read not so much for what they wrote or how they may have affected the character in this story but rather, the chosen literary author's lives are metaphors for the members’ lives.

I found this on Amazon and the first Chapter that you can read here speaks of Charles Lamb's early life - http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0543855406/ref=sib_dp_ptu#reader-link

Charles Lamb lived within a few miles of his birthplace. Earlier in this discussion, someone shared how he took care of his sister Mary who was not his child but a sister. Charles did venture out of the Inner Temple to attend college - It was Dawsey who ventured forth to contact Elizabeth in the first place although he lived his whole life on Guernsey - He purchased books at the second hand booksellers therefore surrounding himself with knowledge without the wealth that would have allowed him a fine library as Lamb's parents without wealth provided him with an education by living in the Inner Temple.

Somehow, what I have not put together is that I think each of these characters represent or are a metaphor of a characteristic of the Brits, which the story is celebrating how they got through the adversity of WWII with their "Foibles" intact.

[straudetwo]

JoanP, re your # 228.
With respect,  I don't consider the presence of Christian Hellmann in the capacity of a military doctor  unusual. In WW II - and in WW I in which my father fought - the Germans maintained field hospitals wherever troops were fighting or stationed.  "Feldlazarett" is the German term.

I believe the United States did the same, in Korea for instance. 
To this day, more than sixty years after the end of WW II, we  still maintain a large  and reputedly excellent facility in Ramstein, Germany, to which wounded American soldiers are flown.  It has been mentioned in news reports and at least one special program.

Other American hospitals were opened in German cities at the end of the war,  for example in Cannstatt, a suburb of Stuttgart, where my sister lived.   We could see the tiled roofs of the buildings from her balcony.  We drove by there once a few years before her death in 1993.  It was a gated complex and access limited.  I never thought to investigate further. Unlike my sister, I was never the inquisitive type.
I  have not been back to Stuttgart since.

More about my war years tomorrow.

[bellamarie]

BarbStAubrey,

So far I am coming away with a meaning for this story centered around handling loss and examples of living through collective adversity involving loss [when there is no cavalry coming over the hill] with a commitment to community replacing a personal life.

I think all of us see the loss connection in the book, but there is so much more it deals with, there is love, war, relationships, friendship, risk taking, not just by Elizabeth, but all the people living in Guernsey, Amelia hiding a pig, Will Thisbee using his dead pig to fool the officers, Juliet traveling to Guernsey for fear she won't fit in, Sidney admitting he is gay, Isola practicing witch craft, etc. etc., there is clamaity, there is literary awareness, trust, acceptance in an intolerant world, fear, isolation, injustice, Christianity, torture, kindness, .....I could go on and on.  I think every aspect and emotion of the human nature is touched upon. 

BarbStAubrey,

I am seeing the authors they each chose to read not so much for what they wrote or how they may have affected the character in this story but rather, the chosen literary author's lives are metaphors for the members’ lives.

I felt the same as you.  I actually posed this theory to Annie Barrows, when I first emailed her a week ago, and this was her response, 

"I think Mary Ann would be delighted--as I am--to hear that her book had inspired you to investigate the works of Lamb and the others. Just like the Guernsey Literary Society itself, part of our purpose was to goad people into reading the books we love. But I  must tell you, in answer to your question, that the characters came from many sources, and since all three of the authors you mentioned--Elizabeth von Arnim, Dos Passos, and Hemingway--were supplied by me, I can tell you why they were chosen. Elizabeth von Arnim, I'm ashamed to say, was selected for no other reason than that hers was the only book I thought would be likely to pop into a British mind that a German officer would also know. Hemingway and Dos Passos I chose because they reveal Markham's tastes and character. I also got a kick out of making him a Wilkie Collins scholar--Collins was such a smoke and mirror type of writer and personally so disreputable that I thought he reflected Mark's true self.
 
I believe that the character of Elizabeth was in some ways an homage to a Resistance fighter  whom Mary Ann admired deeply, Kim Malthe-Bruun. Eben was named after the hero of a wonderful book about Guernsey called The Book of Ebenezer Le Page, though the two men have very different characters.I am not aware that Amelia is named after anyone in particular, but she looks just like my great-grandmother. And Juliet, dear Juliet, is the character who is closest to Mary Ann herself. "

I think while we all have had a grand time in reaching, searching, contemplating, and concluding what the the author's focus was, we are not listening or shall I say accepting what the author herself said, the purpose of the book was.  I suppose its because we want it to be more, we through our own personal, intellectual mind, are certain that it has to be more than what Annie has said it is.  I suppose that is why we are all here, discussing and depicting each thing that stands out to us.  That is what Annie said Mary Anne's goal was.  Exactly what we are doing.  Does that seem too simple to accept?

[Gumtree]

Thanks everyone for your kind words -The threat of bushfire is a major fact of life here where across the country thousands of fires occur each year. At present the south-eastern area is suffering from the longest and most severe drought in history so the country was more than tinder dry - once the bush takes fire our beautiful eucalypts release volatile gases and huge trees simply explode throwing embers in all directions. Some fires are caused by lightning strike but with most there is some kind of human intervention either deliberate (by arsonists& their copycats) ) or accidental through carelessness. During this latest disaster two of the many fires joined up and became a fast moving inferno burning on a 100 mile front and taking everything in its path. Horror.
Sunday is to be a national day of mourning for the victims when maybe we can come to terms with the tragedy.

[JoanP]

Dearest {{{Gum}}}, please accept our deepest sympathy. It is not only a national tragedy, the entire world suffers with you.   We will join you on Sunday to mourn and then pray for an end to this terrible draught.

[JoanP]

Traude, we look forward to   your return - you must have stories to tell about the German people during the war years, though you were just a child yourself.  It makes sense that the German army would have surgeons stationed where there was fighting.  But do  you think that they ever expected there to be fighting on Guernsey -  the islands were so heavily fortified?
I'm wondering what the Islanders did for medical care during the war years.  Do you think the Germans provided that for the inhabitants?  Perhaps this is how Elizabeth and Captain Hellman came to know one another... After five years of Occupation, one can understand where personal relationships developed.

Barbara - I think I over-reacted yesterday when considering Elizabeth's seemingly "reckless"  behavior.    She had seen too much - I think she "just snapped" too. 

If this is a story about how folks get through the war, adversity, the choices they make

...
I forced myself to think  about those Germans in the camps - in    Ravensbrück ..as human beings.  How to explain the choices they made? Is it enough to say they were under orders, under pain of death?  Does this even begin to explain the inhumane treatment of the prisoners on a day to day basis?

War itself is a terrible thing.  On the battlefield, it is about self-preservation, but how to explain the inhumane treatment in those camps?  It is impossible for me to understand.   Maybe those assigned to these camps  had  witnessed too much for anyone to take - and just "snapped" too.  Have any of you ever read anything by the Germans who worked in these camps?

The Guernsey Literary Society members were  insulated from the war, weren't they?  The authors are making us consider the horrors of the camps now - through John Booker and Remy... I was shocked to read that John Booker had been to Belsen and came back to tell about it.    Perhaps the worst time for the members is now, the months after the war, learning of the atrocities. 

[Babi]

Bellamarie, possibly the most unbelievable part of the Dead Bride story is the idea of a lover dying of chagrin! 

BARB, I loved your excellent and thoughtful post on Elizabeth!  You touched on one of Elizabeth's traits that I most admired, her ability to turn someone's troubled thoughts to a more positive future. Such people are rare treasures, and a sore loss to the world when they die.

 

"Babi, are you so sure Juliet wants to remain in Guernsey?"

I don't remember making a statement to that effect, JOANP, but actually I do think she will.  She is becoming very much wrapped up in Kit, and she loves Guernsey and her friends there. What's waiting for in London that's so special?
She is obviously keeping in close contact with her friends from Guernsey.

  Sidney is in Guernsey, and staying with Isola.  I think this says so much about what a kind and caring man he was:  “I must stop now and get dressed for Juliet’s party. Isola is swathed in three shawls and a lace dresser scarf - and I want to do her proud.” And of course, it gives us another priceless image of Isola.

[JoanP]

Good morning, Babi!

"What's waiting for in London that's so special?"  That's a good question.  It has been her home, all through the war years.  Her friends are there.  Sidney is there.

I love the way the authors are keeping us guessing whether Juliet will stay on Guernsey once the book is written.  She does seem to be enjoying herself - and her relationship with Kit is deepening.  She seems to have found the family she never had, doesn't she?

I believe Juliet knows that Mark would not fit in well in Guernsey, would not respect or enjoy her friends there.  Which is as much as to say, IMO, that Mark would not fit well in Juliet's life, either.  Babi

Is Mark OVER for Juliet?  I don't think we ever thought they were a good match - but if she returns to London, it wouldn't matter if he fit in with her friends on Guernsey, would it?  But the real question is - does he fit into her life.

I love the relationship between Sidney and Isola.  How have they struck up such an understanding in one short weekend?   Can you think of a reason why Sidney introduced her to Jane Austen?

[bellamarie]

Why has Sidney introduced her to Jane Austen, do you think?

pg. 200  Juliet to Sidney.."What on earth did you say to Isola?  She stopped in on her way to pick up Pride and Prejudice and to berate me for never telling her about Elizabeth Bennet and Mr. Darcy.  Why hadn't she known there were better love stories around?  Stories not riddled with ill-adjusted men, anguish, death, and graveyards?  What else had I kept from her?"

So it seems from this paragraph, Juliet supplied Isola with many love stories of sadness and death.  Why do you suppose Juliet did not supply Isola with as she said, "better love stories"?  Does this give us an indication, Juliet has spent her own time focused on ill-adjusted men, and love stories that don't end well, much like her own life experiences?

I love this statement Sidney says to Sophie on pg. 194...."Isola is the kind of hostess you always wished you'd come across on a country visit_ but never do."

These last few pages of this week's assignment have been so much fun!  It shows the personal relationships, between Sidney, Juliet and their newfound friendships with the Guernsey people.  I especially love hearing of Kit, and her admiration for Elspeth the Lisping Bunny.     I'm hoping and sensing, we have gotten through the worst, and are about to embark on a lighter, more fun and cheerful ending to this story.  Can that be possible?  I'm still not sure I agree with Sidney, "I think she may never want to live in London again_though she doesn't realize it yet.  Sea air, sunshine, green fields, wildflowers, the everchanging sky and ocean, and most of all, the people seem to have seduced her from City life."

Vacations from your real life, must always come to an end.  As lovely as they are, you can't deny your real life.  I am not seeing Juliet, living in Guernsey.  It would be poetic, but I sense not for her.

[pedln]

we are not listening or shall I say accepting what the author herself said, the purpose of the book was.   

   bellamarie

We don’t really have to.  Somewhere, in this wonderful discussion  are the words of an author himself who said (and now I’m paraphasing) that once the book is out amongst readers, it is no longer the writer’s book, but belongs to the reader, however he may interpret it.

all she had to hang onto and call herself human was her driving force and seeing that denied for her own safety she could no longer tolerate   

Babara

Barbara, I agree with you about Elizabeth’s actions when she tried to stop the beating of the prisoner.  She may well have known that it wouldn’t do any good, but at some point, rage at all the injustices took over.  And perhaps, even in their sadness at the loss of Elizabeth, her actions might have brought a moment of solace to the other prisoners.

I'm wondering what the Islanders did for medical care during the war years.  Do you think the Germans provided that for the inhabitants?

  Joan

There were terrible shortages of medicines and supplies in the hospitals. Surgery was restricted to memrgency operations because of the shortage of anaesthetics.  Diabetics presented one of the greatest problems after the insulin ran out.  [more on that later]  Many islanders turned to grandmothers for old herbal remedies.  One of the most common problems was constipation because of the starchy diet. .  .  . Sub nutrition made people more vulnerable to infections and pharmacists were hard-pressed to devise alternative treaments. ‘All the malt and cod liver oil which was destined for the cattle was requisitioned and given to the children for vitamins A and D.’  The most common complaints were skin conditions such as scabies and impetigo, caused by vitamin deficiencies.

  from Model Occupation

[pedln]

The other day I told about a diabetic boy gettng insulin from a German soldier.  I’m quoting the story of his survival here because I think it simply amazing.

Diabetics presented one of the greatest problems;  they lost a lot of weight because there were no carbohydrates in their diet, and they became vulnerable to liver and kidney infections and pneumonia.  Twenty-six died on Guernsey.  The survival of Maurice Green (actually a Jersey boy) was something of a miracle and after the war he became the subject of medical research.  For sixteen months he had no insulin (after the gift from the soldier ran out); he discharged himself from the hospital and devised his own treatment.

Maurice Green’s story

‘Every day I dug up the garden which made me burn up energy.  I didn’t eat any carbohydrate or starch.  I took a morning job for which I was paid in eggs and the odd piece of pork.  I ate dandelions and roots and lost a lot of weight.’

He was the only diabetic in the Channel Islands to survive the Occupation.  He was fourteen years old when he left the hospital.

[bellamarie]

pedln,

We don’t really have to.  Somewhere, in this wonderful discussion  are the words of an author himself who said (and now I’m paraphasing) that once the book is out amongst readers, it is no longer the writer’s book, but belongs to the reader, however he may interpret it.

Oh how very true these words are......lolololololol  I found myself being too focused, into the words of Annie Barrows.  Shame on me, after finding all those wonderful quotes early on.  That will teach me, to never go seeking out an author again, before I finish a book.  lolololol  Thank you pedln, for you post.

[Janice]

I am following along this wonderful discussion.  I have not yet received my book so I skip over the posts that might tell too much of the story.  Kiwi I have experienced your sadness twice and I am sad for you.  Also regarding the draught, I am praying along with you for rain.  I hope I will be able to get the next discussion book in a more timely manner.  I am still only number 4 on the list waiting for this great book.

[straudetwo]

pedln, thank you for that beautifully expressed quote.  What really matters in the end is if, whether and how a book has affected us.

JoanP,  I'd like to start not with my own story but in medias res, the camps.
They were called "Konzentrationslager" (KZ for short). The first one was built shortly after Hitler came to power in January 1933 in Bavaria near a small medieval town by the name of Dachau.  Dachau served as model for all other camps built thereafter throughout Germany and eventually in Poland and the then Czechoslovakia.

The camps were built to house political prisoners;  among them were prominent Catholic and Protestant clerics,  political activists and resistance fighters.  According to references on the web,
2/3 of the prison population in Dachau consisted of political prisoners, 1/3 were Jewish.

Protestant pastor Martin Niemöller  (1892-1984) was imprisoned in Dachau and in  the KZ Sachsenhausen from 1937 until his liberation in 1945.
Jurist and activist Klaus Bonhöfer (1901-1945) was arrested by the Gestapo on October 1, 1944 and
shot by a firing squad on the night of April 22/23, 1945 -  even as Soviet troops were closing in on the outskirts of Berlin.

Never before has a nation been under such absolute mind control, except for Soviet Russia. The Gestapo had ears everywhere and informants on every city block.  The party controlled the news media, all levels of education from Kindergarten to universities, all cultural and religious institutions.
Specific art was declared "decadent" and dismissed; books forbidden (and symbolically burned) en masse.

I studied in Heidelberg, the oldest university in Germany, founded in 1386.  In my time Heidelberg did not have a campus, it still does not.  For the first trimester (we had TRImesters rather than semesters during the war) I commuted from Mannheim, an industrial city 50 kilometers away. After that I rented a room in Heidelberg.

There was simmering, palpable  unrest in the student body. One day an old friend told me of a small cell of activists. I joined them, never breathing a single word when I went home for a  rare weekend.

In September of 1943 I was home on trimester vacation. When the alarm sounded, my mother and I grabbed the ready-packed suitcase sitting by the door and ran to the bunker down the street. The first bombs started falling before we were inside. It was a long night. The concrete edifice shook a few times, and we knew this time we had been hit.
I wrote a story about that night for WREX and - thanks to the help of Bunnie, the picture lady from Missouri -  was able to submit photos of the house, then and now.  Factual proof of the destruction - and even the eventual reconstruction in several stages of the beautiful sandstone Jugendstil building, a historic landmark.

It was a lifetime ago, yet only the beginning ...

And it as only the beginning ...

[JoanP]

Good morning, Janice,

I went to sleep thinking of you and your patience.  It is wonderful that you have stayed with us this far, but tomorrow when we move into discussion of the final letters and an overall discussion of the book, I'm afraid that the posts, most of the posts, will be spoilers for you.  I want you to know that next week, when the discussion ends, the whole discussion will be archived here and you will be able to read all of the posts as you read your long-awaited book.
We look forward to your reactions to the book once you have read it - in our SeniorLearn Library, which many of us frequent. 

On March 1, the next Book Club Online discussion will on Doris Kearns Goodwin's,  Team of Rivals, her very special biography of Abraham Lincoln. Ella and PatH have already  opened a lively pre-discussion of this book.   Then, on April 1, we will discuss Muriel Barbery's,  The Elegance of the Hedgehog.  Please consider joining us in these discussions.

  We've loved having you on the lurkers' couch -  you enjoy the distinction of being the only lurker who hasn't read the book, trying to avoid the spoilers!  A first!  Congratulations!

[JoanP]

I think that Kit, hiding under the table at the Literary Society meetings heard all kinds of things, no doubt including some that she shouldn’t.  But kids adapt things to what they understand or know.
These lines are by George Eliot.
"Am I not thine alone, a dear dead bride
Who blest thy lot above all men's beside?"

Pedln, you and I were posting at the same time the other day - and I totally missed your post.

When I read Eliot's lines, I'm thinking that  the  "dead bride" seems to refer to Elizabeth.  I went to sleep thinking of what the impact of Remy Girard's letter and then her appearance on Guernsey would have on the members of the literary society.  The islands had been closed all those years.  They wouldn't know of the shocking gruesome details of what went on in those camps.  But then, suddenly, I thought of John Booker - who has returned from Belsen - one of the liberated.  Now he is using his proper name...
Has he kept his traumatic memories to himself?  I'm going to reread his letters this morning...perhaps he is keeping quiet about them to protect the Gurensians from worrying about Elizabeth any more than they are.
There I go again, thinking of these people as more than characters in a book!

Traudee, your posts are invaluable.  We look forward to hearing from you about the German viewpoint.  I imagine this is still difficult for you to revisit, even after fifty some years. 
As a student in Heidelberg you knew of the camps, the KZs - as housing "politcal prisoners, clergy, political activists and resistance fighters."

"There was simmering, palpable  unrest in the student body. One day an old friend told me of a small cell of activists. I joined them, never breathing a single word when I went home for a  rare weekend." Traudee

Can you tell more about those student activist  days?  Did you and your mother remain in Mannheim after the bombing?  Well, this is your story.  I'd better be patient and let you tell it in your own time.  I am most anxious to learn when you first heard what was going on in the KZ at this time.  It most have been sickening and shocking for you to learn...

[Babi]

After Sidney goes back home, he sends another one of those inspired gifts. He sends Kit a pair of red shoes with sequins.  Don't you know the little girl loved those shoes?! 

  Straude, thanks for the reminder about the non-Jewish political prisoners. In the horrors of the mass murders, we tend to forget that. I always thought it so sad that Bonhoefer endured for so long, only to be executed with deliverance in sight.  As I understand it, the Nazis did not want him left alive to tell his story.

[Steph]

Horror.. I know it is not a good way to start Saturday, but the morning paper shocked me.  small item in the paper. A painter-poet who was jewish was taken up by the commandent of a town in the war. He was forced to paint murals in a childs room and in turn was protected by the  German officer. About midway through the war, he was shot and killed in the street by another German officer and I quote" Because his officer had killed the second officers pet jew".. To refer to a human being as a pet.. I cried..
Still love the book.. am ready to settle in and finish it today and tomorrow. Can hardly wait. I want to Juliet to stay there , marry and live happily ever after, but then I am atradionalist.
I actually know two separate couples, who went to a special place on their honeymoons, fell in love with them and stayed.. One in Peru, one in Alaska.

[bellamarie]

Steph,

I want to Juliet to stay there , marry and live happily ever after, but then I am atradionalist.

I am suspecting most of the people who read this book are expecting Juliet to go to Guernsey, find true love, and stay on this lovely island, where she has met so many nice people and become a mother to Kit.  In saying this, I have to say, for some reason, some where along my reading this book, I became very frustrated with Juliet's character.  To me, I was finding her character wishy washy, and self absorbed.  Even after she got to Guernsey, it seemed like she was thrilled with all the attention everyone was giving her, I was uneasy, about her motives for befriending them, since her aim was to get more info for her articles.  After Sidney came and she sent him the pages to look over, he says look for more about Elizabeth, so what does she do...she goes looking into personal things of Elizabeth's, for the purpose of gaining more insight for her book.

Keep in mind she has only been there for a month or so, she has gained the friendship and trust of the people, so does this warrant, her rummaging through Elizabeth's personal things, for her book?  I am an idealist and romantic and look for the happily ever after, most of the time, when I am reading any book, that has a love story theme, yet for some reason, I have NO idea why, I have not been rooting for her to end up with Dawsey and Kit.  I too am going to finish the last pages, and once I read them, maybe Mary Ann/Juliet can change my mind. 

Up to this point I feel, Mary Ann has had the readers so focused away from Juliet, by making Elizabeth so much the main character, then she brings is so many other people so quickly, I have seen no real love affair forming with Juliet and Dawsey.  Friendship, yes, but not romance.  I hope, if not for lack of running out of time, they are not put together, just to give it the happily ever after ending.  For me it will leave me even more frustated.  So.....in saying this...on to finish the book be back tomorrow.

[straudetwo]

JoanP,  the existence of KZs was not common knowledge; I did not know of them when I came to Heidelberg.  The full details and statistics came to light only AFTER the war.
It could not have been otherwise because of the stranglehold that had been imposed on young and old.

The government was the Party, and the powers of the Party were limitless.  A systematic cleansing began early in 1933 of all institutions, political, cultural and religious. Members of the nobility, the intellectual elite and career officers were automatically suspect. The barons and counts dropped the "von" from their names.  University professors known to hold dissenting views were pushed out.  The military high command was similarly "reformed".

The people had hope in the beginning when thousands of unemployed were put back to work building the Autobahnen. By that time I was in secondary school. When I entered it at age 10, there were six Jewish and two half-Jewish girls.  During the next few years all but one disappeared, suddenly, mysteriously, without explanation.  The last one did not leave quietly. She was the daughter of a Protestant minister and a Jewish mother. She was tall, had long thick braids and a brilliant student.  Her name was Christiane.

Her tormentor was Dr. phil. Scharnke, our home room teacher who also taught history and German.  She treated Christiane viciously, reduced her to tears and shouted at her, while the rest of us squirmed.  Christiane fought back, passionately - but one day she was gone for good.
Then Dr Scharnke turned on me for no reason I ever understood. When war broke out we were in the last year of high school.

Re the house.  It was uninhabitable and remained so for year  after, until a bank bought it in the prosperous fifties and began its rehabilitation.
We had reason to be grateful: my ailing father was out of town on that night.  If he had been home, he would have gone to his customary place in the cellar, which was rubble, and would have been killed.
The parents of my best friend from school offered mother and myself refuge in their villa, which was untouched.  Father joined us there. I went back to Heidelberg.   My parents were relocated in a different rural area of the country.

[bellamarie]

straudetwo,  Thank you so very much for sharing your life story with us.  I can't even begin to imagine, living through what you have experienced. 

Her tormentor was Dr. phil. Scharnke, our home room teacher who also taught history and German.  She treated Christiane viciously, reduced her to tears and shouted at her, while the rest of us squirmed.  Christiane fought back, passionately - but one day she was gone for good.

This brought tears to my eyes. 

[straudetwo]

Bellamarie,  thank you for your kind words.
May I assure you that it was not my intention to hold forth with my life's story -- which was not unique by any means (nor is that y style).  What I have described is my own personal experience. I lay no claim to voicing a broad German point of view of the past.  After all,  I have lived in this country two decades longer than I ever did in Europe.  Thousands upon thousands of people, first in Britain, mind you,  then in Germany and elsewere, have similar stories to tell.

Yes, it was Germany under a man who was a mass murderer and quite possibly insane that started WW II.  But  of what help is this acknowledgement now?  Hitler's foray into Russia was as disastrous  and ill-conceived as Napoleon's a century earlier. But clearly, we have not learned anything from history and continue to repeat past mistakes with impunity. Forgive me for being frank - that's the only way I can function.

[PatH]

straudetwo "May I assure you that it was not my intention to hold forth with my life's story -- which was not unique by any means"

It's good that you hold forth with it; that's exactly what is so good about this kind of discussion.  Your experience enriches the discussion, and even the parts that aren't closely relevant fill in the background. Besides, we're a group of friends, and the more you know about a friend the more you like them.  I honor you for taking a strong stand at the time--not easy to do.

[PatH]

Tomorrow, all will be revealed.  I have to confess that my usual self-restraint failed me, and when I read this week's assignment I couldn't stop, and finished the book.  Here is what I thought about Juliet's future at the start of the week.  I now know whether I was right or wrong, but that doesn't matter.

From the start, I felt that Juliet would end up married to Sidney, or else not marry anyone.  They are old friends, and they are so totally sympathetic to each other.  I never felt that Mark Reynolds was a serious contender.  No, I didn't pick up on the fact that he's gay.  I also felt that although Dawsey is wonderfully worthy, she wouldn't do well to marry him.  They are too different, and I can't believe she would be happy living on Guernsey all the time.