Author Topic: Classics Book Club, The  (Read 493877 times)

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1040 on: March 27, 2011, 12:10:27 AM »
 
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.



Now reading:


March 28---Book VIII:  
At the court of Alcinoös
 



Odysseus on the island of the Phaiacians
Peter Paul Rubens (1577 - 1640)






Odysseus and Nausicaa
Salvator Rosa (1615 - 1673)
The Hermitage, St. Petersburg


  
Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  




Odysseus weeps at the singing of Demodocos
John Flaxman
1805




Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
Map of the  Voyages of Odysseus
Map of Voyages in order
Map of Stops Numbered
Our Map Showing Place Names in the Odyssey





Nausicaa
Frederic, Lord Leighton (1830 - 1896)




Barb - Slightly off track, but we are talking about exotica.  I always knew that the mango had a fascinating history.  Thanks for the link and the heady image  :)
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

Frybabe

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1041 on: March 27, 2011, 12:48:12 AM »
Deb regarding discrepancies and inconsistancies, one of the theories postulated by scholars has been that Homer brought together older tales he had gathered and incorporated the tales into one. The discrepancies and inconsistencies are what they point to as "proof".

Ella Gibbons

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1042 on: March 27, 2011, 12:27:16 PM »
GORGEOUS, JUST GORGEOUS pictures! 

AMICAH

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1043 on: March 27, 2011, 02:33:05 PM »
Hello
This is my first post soooo...
I have been following along and am having a great time thinking over all the views and info.I felt prompted to post because of what I thought is an interesting side note in my old cliff notes . Supposedly Builer at one time tried to
prove that Nausicca was the real writer of the Odyssey.The writer did not elaborate except to say that R.Graves
developed a novel from this idea ;HOMER"S DAUGHTER  .Interesting ????

                                                                              Amicah

AMICAH

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1044 on: March 27, 2011, 03:54:29 PM »
Correction!
    Of course, I meant   Butler . So much for my typing skills.
    Clark Gable ;yes, but I keep seeing Gerard Butler as Odysseus. { the actor from Scotland }. Hope I'll do better with my next post.Back to reading!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1045 on: March 27, 2011, 04:13:52 PM »
AMICAH so glad  you posted -  since I am not up on the current crop of actors I had to look up to see who was this Gerard Butler.

Here we go - yes, I agree - a bit nicer looking  and a bit softer looking but the look that I too would say was a good choice for Odyesseus
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1046 on: March 27, 2011, 05:02:22 PM »
Oh yummy! Sigh!!

Although Robert Graves wrote extensively, I am mostly familiar with him via his I Claudius and a volume containing letter correspondence between him and T. E. Lawrence.

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1047 on: March 27, 2011, 07:19:44 PM »
AMICAH: WELCOME, WELCOME! Sit down at the feast, and I'll have slaves bring you food and wine!

Actually, since the men always have womeen serving them, can we have men servants? Maybe that yummy Gerard Butler! (If we're going to havea virtual feast, let's do it up right!)

On mangos: there has to be more to mangos than I know. My husband grew up in Florida and picked them off the tree. He loved mangos, but said those we got in Maryland weren't the same. I never learned to like them, so haven't tried them in California.

I'm not surprised they come from India: if you've ever been in an Indian grocery store, the have mang EVERYTHING: mango ice cream, mango popsicles, mango jam, mango chutney, dried, fresh, frozen, you name it.

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1048 on: March 27, 2011, 07:21:32 PM »
I'd like to see the argument that Nausicaa wrote the Odyssey. I love the picture of her by Lord whats-is-name.

Dana

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1049 on: March 27, 2011, 08:02:07 PM »
I have to say it--none of the pictures of any of the characters by any of these middle ages artists do anything for me. But neither do Taylor and Burton or any of the latest stars playing Romans or Greeks.  They're just so of their time.  (Whatever that means, how could they not be?)  Anyway I have a vague fuzzy idea in my head,or no idea, and that's better to me.

PatH

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1050 on: March 27, 2011, 09:55:31 PM »
AMICAH--it's good to see you here.  You'll certainly get all sides of the story here--we're all over the map on what we think about everyone and everything, and we won't reach a consensus, but I guarantee we'll squeeze every drop of juice we can out of the Odyssey.  You've never really read a book in depth until you've read it on Seniorlearn.

PatH

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1051 on: March 27, 2011, 10:32:31 PM »
Dana, what you feel about the artists being too much of their time, I feel about some of the translations.  That's why I like Lombardo.  He uses some colloquialisms which will make him seem dated after a while, but he deliberately stays very close to the original, not adding anything, and keeping the sense as close as possible to Homer.  Plus he has kept a rhythm which asks to be read aloud, as the original was recited.  In fact, when we read his translation of the Iliad here, I did read most of it aloud to myself.

Deb regarding discrepancies and inconsistancies, one of the theories postulated by scholars has been that Homer brought together older tales he had gathered and incorporated the tales into one. The discrepancies and inconsistencies are what they point to as "proof".
There is a good example of this in the Iliad.  There is a chapter or so in which some of the Greeks go off on a horse stealing raid to the Trojan camp which is in totally a different tone from the rest, serves no purpose in the overall story, and looks very much like something inserted.

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1052 on: March 27, 2011, 10:54:55 PM »
Χαίρετε ΑΜΙΚΑ

I like looking at Gerard Butler too, but if he played Odysseus it would be a tad confusing because he played Leonidas at Thermopylae in the movie "300". 

JoanK - Yes there are mangoes and mangoes.  They sell about 4 varieties of mango in my state, but everyone knows the best is the Bowen Mango.  Not quite as big as some but absolutely delicious.  The way you know you are buying a good mango is colour and then scent.  Mmmmm I can smell it now.  I agree that it would be great to have serving men at out banquet to welcome AMICAH.
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

Gumtree

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1053 on: March 27, 2011, 11:24:58 PM »
Amicah Hello Hello - so happy to meet you. your man Gerard Butler is new to me - looks good!

Frybabe  Thanks for mention of Grave's  Homer's Daughter - I'll try to unearth a copy.
Graves had a huge literary output. Apart from I Claudius and Claudius the God there are other novels Count Belisarius for one and biographies, translations and considerable poetry. He also wrote The White Goddess which was mentioned here earlier. His interpretation of The Greek Myths is still well regarded though come classicists are not so impressed.  I found Martin Seymour-Smith's biography of Graves worth reading.

PatH I feel the same about my Cook translation as you do about Lombardo. Cook tried to give a literal line by line translation -which to my mind is elegant and reads timelessly . So far nothing has grated as being too colloquial or too much of the 1960s.
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1054 on: March 28, 2011, 08:01:58 AM »
Oh my, what a wonderful start for Book VIII we have here this morning!!

And we have a billion questions here in this post, grab one and hang on!

Welcome, Amicah!! We are so glad to have you! This is what I love about the Odyssey, I love the short books and people able to join in.  What a provocative theory about the author of the Odyssey!!  Thank you for bringing it here! Gerard Butler, I had never heard of but I followed your link and he's perfect! Wow!

Gum what does  Martin Seymour-Smith's biography say about Graves? I've always been somewhat suspect of Graves, what did he conclude?

RoshanaRose, Butler  was in 300? I tried but could not watch that thing, maybe I was watching the wrong one? Scary, very scary. Are we thinking of the same film? Cartoon like thing?

Welcome back, PatH, I agree about Lombardo. Thank you for letting us know O is going East. I would be a hopeless sailor, but the new IPhone has a compass! At last I know which direction I'm going. :) hahahaa I think this needs to be our motto:
You've never really read a book in depth until you've read it on Seniorlearn.

Frybabe with the glazed eyes, hahaha what rhyme scheme is Pope writing in? I would like to find somebody who is copying the dactylic hexameter in English if that's possible and I am pretty sure somebody somewhere has tried, tho it's not our rhythm of speech.

JoanK, loved that feast analogy!  I like mangoes but they need to be ripe.

________________________________

I was reading Goldsworthy's Antony and  Cleopatra last night and he does go on quite a bit about Athens and Sparta, things I did not know. I recommend him, even if you have to put him on Kindle, (he's really easier to read that way).

Ella, welcome!  I am so glad you like the art here. I am also  glad to see Dana say I have to say it--none of the pictures of any of the characters by any of these middle ages artists do anything for me. But neither do Taylor and Burton or any of the latest stars playing Romans or Greeks.  They're just so of their time.  (Whatever that means, how could they not be?)  Anyway I have a vague fuzzy idea in my head,or no idea, and that's better to me.

It isn't supposed to illustrate the characters for us each individually or even to suggest what they look like? The purpose of the art in the heading, which so far has spanned from the 6th C BC  Greek  vases, kraters and plates, to the 20th c, (John William Waterhouse is 20th)  is   to illustrate instead the abiding influence that the Odyssey has had visually  over the centuries.  We've shown pottery,  sculpture, etchings, book illustrations and  paintings, and while it's true we've not put up a 1/10th of what's out there, it's a good representative bunch, so far, I think.

But no, trying to capture everybody here's individual idea of the appearance of these characters? Not.

In fact normally in a book discussion we do ask, what modern actor could you see in the part?  I threw out Clark Gable, I like Gerard Butler better, whoever he is, but the fact is I personally never form any kind of image when I read and I certainly don't have one here.

In fact I dislike normally illustrations IN a modern book, because inevitably despite my having no idea of the appearance of the charcter, they interfere with what amorphours image I do have, that's why I dislike seeing a film portrayal of a book. Once having seen Geraldine McEwan as Lucia (quite a difference in her and the dark haired Benson protagonist, I think) and that voice, one can't see anybody else. Don't get me wrong, she IS Lucia for me, but if I had read the book first I think I would be confused.

So no, please take the illustrations as what they are and were intended as, and no more: the representations through the centuries (I mean Rubens is no slack) of what struck that artist about the story and how he chose to portray it. Isn't that what art is about?

For instance I put up the old Flaxman to make my own point about 8: the weeping.

How IS it that O sits weeping and "nobody sees him except XXX."

Are they all blind?  Are they not looking at him? When's the last time (God forbid) you entertained a guest at your table and he started crying? Wouldn't that seem odd? How is it nobody sees him?

Chapter 8 is about as odd as you can get.

What's the strangest thing about it to YOU?

Who would YOU put as Odysseus? Nausicaa? Or are they not fleshed out enough and if not, why not?

Here are the excellent questions from Temple, I just love these questions, for some reason, want to try one?

Book 8

191-4 King Alcinous summons the Phaiakian assembly, which agrees to send Odysseus home by ship. Having returned to the palace, they're entertained by the singer Demodokos. Describe Demodocus, and think about any other figures that he suggests. O weeps at his song (why?), and, after being taunted, wins a discuss contest. Demodocus sings three songs that are thematically relevant to the epic as a whole.

194-210 Alcinous introduces exhibitions of dancing; Demodokos sings of Hephaestus' revenge on Ares and Aphrodite. Why does Odysseus react to this story differently? More dancing, and gifts for O. He now asks Demodocus for a certain story and weeps again. Alcinous questions him. Think about the content of the songs, O's response to them, and the epithets given to him in this book. What is going on? Do you recall another incident of weeping at dinner? Also, do you like the Phaeacians? Do they resemble any other group of people?
Intepretive interlude

We are now 1/3 of the way through, and the epic can in fact be divided into three parts. In Book 9, we see Odysseus at the beginning of his return; in Books 5-8, near the end, 10 years later. Has he changed? How?

Try thinking again about Books 6-9 as an anthropologist might in investigating alien cultures. How would you categorize or classify these cultures? As always with myth, think about food. Why do you think Homer has put them all in the epic? Remember, Homer does nothing without cause.

Start thinking about the type of human being that Odysseus personifies and about the larger allegorical significance of his journeys. The Odysseus myth has influenced texts from Dante's Inferno, to Joyce's Ulysses, to Conrad's Lord Jim, to Huckleberry Finn -- even Captain James T. Kirk of the Starship Enterprise (yes, think about that!) owes much of his identity to Odysseus.


I'm off to see if I can find out why the books are divided the way they are....OH, I have a new IPhone and one of the Apps was  Quiz Quiz Quiz, trivia questions which are graded. Not only do they have Epics, they have a section of Latin and Latin pops up everywhere along with O himself! They do seem to have Greek history and I'm waiting to see if they have the Roman Empire as well. Fun fun fun, you'd get them all so far!

I want to leave with Deb's post and the questions SHE asks:

when I read of Odysseus crying  and carrying on because being marooned on the island with Calypso...why doesn't he do something beside feel sorry for himself.,.. begin creating a raft, start storing up provisions so when the opportunity arises he is ready to leave/escape...why is he sleeping with calypso when he has Penelope back home pining for him

WHY doesn't he do something besides feel sorry for himself?  Do  you all see him as a "woe is me" type of character? What choices does he have to take control of his own life? He prides himself on his THINKING his way out of situations, and that's his rep. What thinking is he doing? How does it affect his situation if at all?

He reminds me at this point of that awful song, was it a country show? Hee Haw perhance?

Doom, despair and agony on me
Deep dark depression, excessive misery.
If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all,
Doom, despair, and agony on me.

Note however the use of the Subjunctive in "were," pretty sophisticated hicks, huh?

Deb then asks:

I am not very empathetic for Odysseus as a character
what happened ...of course 20 years more or less and he could have shifted in his character, loss of confidence...he may be the hero of our story but my empathies don't really lie with him...and then a part of me says well he is genuinely expressing his feelings something we feel men have shut out of their lives in our society quite often, so why do I condemn him for this
 


 But do we relate at all to O at this point? Somebody (sorry) mentioned he was at present a sketchy cartoon sort of character, is he?

as far as Athena...would Athena not be letting Odysseus realize her identity so not to let him get dependent on her super powers as a Goddess!!!....

What great points you are making, Deb is better than Temple.  So as not to let him get dependent on her super powers? Does he have much choice?

She is all over him. Is she all over him to counteract Poseidon and "help?" Or what, exactly, is she doing? He knows, right? He knows it's Athene, or does he?

Wow what a roster of questions here today! Pick one, ask your own, talk to us about Book VIII!



Babi

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1055 on: March 28, 2011, 08:46:55 AM »
Quote
I keep seeing Gerard Butler as Odysseus. { the actor from Scotland}
  We really should see if we can't find a Greek actor for the part. John Cassavetes could have done it in his day. George Chakiris, in his younger days. Hey, did you know Nicholas Cage is Greek?
  Oh, yeah!  Gerard Butler looks like he would make a great Odysseus.

  I loved the imagery of the young men dancing at the feast Antinoos held for his still unidentified
guest.  It sounds like these were really good dancers. So I did a little research.
 
  The Greeks danced at religious festivals, ceremonies; they danced to ensure fertility;
to prepare for war and to celebrate victories; they danced at weddings; to overcome
depression and to cure physical illness. Almost every dance has a story to tell. Dance was
regarded as one of the highest forms of art.
 
In major cities/kingdoms of Ancient Greece, men were taught to dance. According to
Athenaeus in Arcadia, the expenses were met from the civic purse and pupils staged an
annual display of their accomplished skills which all citizens attended. (That sounds like what the king was referring to when he said his young men had won prizes for their dancing.)
  Most Greek dances are either performed in a circle, or in a long line. There are regional
differences in the dances as well. The 'eastern' islands are now known as the Aegeans, and
"the music of these islands is very delightful and lyrical and.... are characterised by the
lightness of steps and the springing in the knees. "
  Sounds very much like the Irish jig or
the Scottish hornpipe, doesn't it?
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1056 on: March 28, 2011, 09:57:08 AM »
Sounds like the music and dance in "Zorba The Greek"... I did enjoy that film
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1057 on: March 28, 2011, 09:57:40 AM »
Babi - Forgive me for correcting you re Nicholas Cage.  Actually he is related to the Coppolas (Godfather fame and very Italian) and his mother was of German descent.  Perhaps you are thinking of Nicholas Gage, who is Greek and wrote the very Greek novel "Eleni".
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1058 on: March 28, 2011, 10:06:31 AM »
Ginny - What you call a hicks' song is actually blues.  .

Doom, despair and agony on me
Deep dark depression, excessive misery.
If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all,
Doom, despair, and agony on me.

Cream took up some of the lyrics, and in no way were they hicks.

by Booker T. Jones and William Bell

Born under a bad sign.
I've been down since I began to crawl.
If it wasn't for bad luck,
I wouldn't have no luck at all.
Bad luck and trouble's my only friend,
I've been down ever since I was ten.
Born under a bad sign.
I've been down since I began to crawl.
If it wasn't for bad luck,
I wouldn't have no luck at all.







How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1059 on: March 28, 2011, 10:32:01 AM »
Roshanna Rose, I was referring to the TV series Hee Haw, have you ever seen it?

I m sorry not to have been clear.


They
used  used this song as part of  a running skit on the weekly show, which ran for years.   I appreciate your concern,  but my point was they used the song in a television show by country music characters,  and singers, wasn't Roy Clark in it? It was a satire,  featuring country type situations, and people deliberately exaggerated, poking fun seemingly  at themselves but in reality  at those who looked down on country music and people I guess. It's  hard to describe if you haven't seen it, or if you don't know the genre.    It was a major hit, actually.  

I was pointing out, apparently not very well, that the song's lyrics  were one of the many things which belied the "hick" image. And that was  just one of the more telling things about the show.

That is all I was saying?  And the only "motive" behind my saying it.  I'm sorry not to have been clear. I'm not calling anybody a "hick."  They did.   Anybody who has actually seen the show knows what I'm talking about.  Thank you for bringing to my attention that I expressed that poorly.

Sorry not to have been clear on that one.

AMICAH

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1060 on: March 28, 2011, 11:27:11 AM »
I' ve been looking for info on Homer,s Daughter .I too am familiar with the Claudius books , but had never heard or seen anything about  Homer"s Daughter, but there it is on Amazon .Used editions are available ,but the reviews are not too favorable. Of course, this is just an aside bit of information , back to the real thing! I must say I am  learning a great deal here at Senior Learn. I started to read the O. years ago and got sidetracked. This is WONDERFUL ! ]And i am getting to know how to use a keyboard as well . ] Thanks
,

Frybabe

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1061 on: March 28, 2011, 02:22:33 PM »
Gumtree, minor correction, Amicah is the one who first brought up Homer's Daugter not me.

One more comment about the weepy O and why he stayed so long with Calypso. Major Depression is a real nasty thing. It is like a whirlpool that just sucks you down so low that you have great difficulty bucking the tide. Do don't want to do anything, and often, don't want company. I know one person who, on some days, couldn't muster enough interest and strength to get out of bed. It takes a great deal of effort to break the cycle. Remember O didn't have the benefit of mood lifting drugs and psychiatric help as we know it today. It is, however, hard to believe that one could stay in a Major Depression for so long or that Calypso herself would put up with such behavior for so long.

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1062 on: March 28, 2011, 03:23:34 PM »
I have to look back to see. But I thought we were told that O was under a spell so that he couldn't leave. Of course, this could be the way the Greeks explained the kind of deep depression we're talking about.

Dana

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1063 on: March 28, 2011, 03:53:14 PM »
well he wouldn't have had any sex drive if he was in a major depression and Kalypso wouldn't have liked that!  (maybe she lifted his depression every night though!!)

Frybabe

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1064 on: March 28, 2011, 04:02:05 PM »
Good points JoanK and Dana.

PatH

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1065 on: March 28, 2011, 07:52:16 PM »
Odysseus as loving husband:  None of the Greeks seem to be faithful.  The Iliad starts with a quarrel between Agamemnon and Achilles over who will get to sleep with which slave girl.  This is about prestige, not sex, but they are both married men.  But given that background, Odysseus admits that although Calypso, as a goddess, is more beautiful that his wife, he still wants to go back to Penelope.

Later he says something even more telling.  He has just met Nausicaa, and is asking her help:

"And for yourself, may the gods grant you
Your heart's desire, a husband and a home,
And the blessing of a harmonious life.
For nothing is greater or finer than this,
When a man and woman live together
With one heart and mind, bringing joy
to their friends and grief to their foes
."

Dana

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1066 on: March 28, 2011, 08:36:12 PM »
You know, following on what I said that perhaps Kalypso lifted his depression every night , I thought that I had read something to that effect in the chapter--and sure enough when I looked:

Though he fought shy of her and her desire
he lay with her each night, for she compelled him.
But when day came he sat on the rocky shore annd broke his own heart groaning, with eyes wet

Truely Homer is a poet for all seasons I expect that's why he's lasted

PatH

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1067 on: March 28, 2011, 08:42:47 PM »
Dana, that's exactly the sort of detail that would have blown by me if not for this discussion.

bookad

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1068 on: March 28, 2011, 10:24:15 PM »
Dana--good for you...I wasn't giving much credit to Odysseus but after you found that information; I now feel I must read much more carefully...it makes me sad that I didn't pick up the reason for his sadness ...I will certainly be checking more carefully when I read and not be so quick to criticize ---the character

but I wonder why we are told the same thing thru past tense, present tense, one person's eyes then another person's thoughts...makes me think of someone with a word limit trying to pad out a story to fit the needed length of pages....of course when people had a lot more time and entertainment was in the telling of stories ....allowances would be made I imagine for drama and heightening suspense by various methods, one of these methods perhaps being that of repetition

Deb
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

kidsal

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1069 on: March 29, 2011, 02:28:53 AM »
This book reminds me of my father whose middle name was Achilles (my uncle's middle name was Ulysses).  Under my father's picture in his high school year book was the phrase:  "Woe is Me"

Gumtree

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1070 on: March 29, 2011, 03:54:15 AM »
Quote
Gumtree, minor correction, Amicah is the one who first brought up Homer's Daughter not me.

Frybabe and Amicah Sorry I got my wires crossed - it's sometimes hard to keep everything straight especially when pressed for time.  Any excuse  :D

Whilst on the subject of Robert Graves I should attempt to answer the question Ginny posed:

Quote
Gum what does  Martin Seymour-Smith's biography say about Graves? I've always been somewhat suspect of Graves, what did he conclude?


I should say I was never totally convinced by Graves either but am more inclined toward him now than I have ever been. The more I read Graves the better I appreciate him - which is not to say I read him every day  :D

It's ten years or more since I read the biography so for what my memory is worth.....
 
Firstly, Seymour-Smith was a life long friend of Graves so one wonders whether he was truly objective OR alternatively by knowing his subject so well he was able to cut through the facade. He did hold back on some issues in the first edition but the 1995 edition (the one I read) was fully revised and extended to include matters he previously left unsaid. What they were I'll never know as I've no intention of reading the original 1982 edition but I believe chiefly it was to do with Graves' womanising -he had to have his Muse. S-S goes into those aspects quite thoroughly.

Seymour-Smith praises Graves' knowledge and facility for writing but is at pains to make the point that his own wife, who was an Oxford classicist, worked with Graves daily as his assistant whilst he was writing  The Greek Myths - which he wrote for Penguin as part of their push to popularise the classics - Janet Seymour-Smith was appalled at the lack of scholarship and in part was responsible for correcting Graves' work - the inference being that Mrs S-S's contribution was vital in establishing some degree of accuracy -

So he really is suspect - on the other hand S-S praises Graves so far as the content of  The White Goddess is concerned which Graves described a 'a historical grammar of poetic myth' - this is what S-S says about it (in part)

"The White Goddess ...is the product of a highly sophisticated, independent and uncompromising mind... The answer to the question as to whether Graves believed its thesis in a literal sense is that The White Goddess is a gigantic metaphor - although it is at the same time an idiosyncratic 'key' to, not all, but some, mythologies. It is, as well, the lively and stimulating expression of an outstanding and unusual temperament, a temperament which loathes and distrusts machinery, which hates the developments of technology, and which needs to live as near as possible to nature, in accord with the season.
..."

Graves wrote "The study of mythology...is based squarely on tree-lore and the seasonal observation of life in the fields"

I think Graves' long term reputation will rest on his poetry. He was one of the WWI War Poets along with Brooke, Sassoon, Owen et al.  He was writing lyrical poetry at a time when it was way out of 'fashion' and he stuck to his guns continuing to write his brand of poetry until the end.  The White Goddess is something of a testament of a practising poet.

Which brings us right back to our reading of Odyssey and the part that myths and 'tree lore'  -the seasons and their fruitfulness - nature itself -   have to play in our story and in the affairs of men - and Gods! And as we noted recently Odyssey and Iliad are the earliest sources we have in regard to the Greek myths - myths which are rooted in nature.


 
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

JudeS

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1071 on: March 29, 2011, 12:56:05 PM »
Understanding Odysseus's character is very interesting.
In the first chapters we hear about an idolized version of the man as portrayed by Penelope and Telemacuus who have not seen or heard from him in twenty years. In fact his son never really knew him since he was barely one or two before his father went away.
In the following chapters we see a real person. A man who weeps . A man who likes sex with Calypso. A man who can be goaded into showing off in physical sports like the discus. A man who knows he is weaker than he was, when he honestly proclaims:"I've taken a shameful beating out on heavy seas  No conditioningthere on shipboard day by day.  My legs have lost their spring"
He is still strong, physically attractive  (Athena constantly is making him look more attractive than he is.) But after all, he is a man of at least forty. Perhaps in his prime by todays standards but not young either.
I really don't believe he was suffering from depression while with Calypso. Perhaps he was under a spell. A spell named Calypso.

JudeS

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1072 on: March 29, 2011, 01:18:37 PM »
On another subject, Mangos, I want to say that I am jealous of you folks who can eat this delicous fruit.
Mangos are related to Cashews and to Poison Ivy and Poison Sumac. All of these plants contain an irritant called Urushiol that causes in some people (ME in particular) terrible, itchy rashes.
There are over 1000, yes, one Thousand, varieties grown in India.
The irritant Urushiol has an interesting side note. This toxin is used by the Japanese to make laquer for their traditional lacquerware.

Gumtree

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1073 on: March 29, 2011, 01:26:11 PM »
I'm allergic to mangoes too Jude - itchy rash - swollen face - closed eye - blistered lips - have had them all from mangoes and from the sumac (rhus). I am not in the least jealous of those who can eat mangoes - they're poison to me - and to you too.

Didn't know the lacquer made by the Japanese contained the toxin - I'll remember to avoid any art classes in Japanese lacquerwork.
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1074 on: March 29, 2011, 03:27:54 PM »
I'm fascinated y the description of the blind singer. I'll bet our image of Homer is taken from this description (?!?).

I liked U's statements of his skills too --- good at discusa, not so good at running. It's details like this that make the story and characters seem so real. If he'd been super at everything, we would have thought "yeah, yeah, another superhero". But weak knees! Boy, can I relate to that! Now I start to emphasize with him.

Remember the quote from the Iliad? I'll bet homer had bad knees!

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1075 on: March 29, 2011, 03:35:55 PM »
Gosh what great posts! It sure is nice to come in here, and breathe in the  intelligent conversation and great ideas and enthusiasm on this really great book. I agree with Dana, Truely Homer is a poet for all seasons I expect that's why he's lasted.

It's a heck of a lot better than taxes!

I think Homer IS a poet for the ages and I think together we're beginning to see things we would not have alone, too. He's touching things I had no idea on, thank you Dana,  for that fabulous noticing about Calpyso and O, and how he might have been able to have some interest despite his depression, and Frybabe for calling it depression.  Whether or not he IS depressed, he's  crying. The new issue of Time Magazine has some interesting statistics on crying at work, have you all seen it?

48 percent of men thought it was OK to cry at work versus 41 percent of women.
43 percent of women considered people who cry at work unstable, versus 32 percent of men.

(This is the April 4 2011 issue). Apparently this crying is a hot topic.  In their study they found that 69 percent of respondents felt that when someone gets emotional in the workplace, it makes the person seem more human and 88 percent of all workers (93 percent of women and 83 percent of men) felt that being sensitive to others emotions at work was an asset.

It's a very interesting article, I'm sure it's online. I am trying to think of other Greek heroes who cried. Off the top of my head I can't think of ONE Roman hero who cried? Can anybody? It makes you wonder why Homer has him crying, what the purpose was.

I still think the women have the better of him and he's frustrated and trapped. Calypso certainly does and Athene (of course they aren't women per se) runs him around like a puppet. I'd cry, too. hahaaa


Pat H, thank you so much for that quote and  you've answered also one of the Temple Questions, what does his speech to Nausicaa show about his character?  He's clear on that. Others don't seem to share that opinion; it will be interesting to see the contrast.

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1076 on: March 29, 2011, 03:39:48 PM »

Sally: This book reminds me of my father whose middle name was Achilles (my uncle's middle name was Ulysses).  Under my father's picture in his high school year book was the phrase:  "Woe is Me"  From the names, your  family must be Greek! I did not know that! Are they still with us or have they passed on? I'd love to hear their thoughts on our reading the Odyssey, every  Greek I know is fantastically proud of their heritage.

Those are excellent points, Jude!

Oh Deb, what fabulous musings:  but I wonder why we are told the same thing thru past tense, present tense, one person's eyes then another person's thoughts...makes me think of someone with a word limit trying to pad out a story to fit the needed length of pages....of course when people had a lot more time and entertainment was in the telling of stories ....allowances would be made I imagine for drama and heightening suspense by various methods, one of these methods perhaps being that of repetition

What do you all think about that? I hadn't caught the red part at all. Is there any reason to change persons and tenses and retell the story, do you close readers think?

Gum thank you so much for that wonderful review. It's like the guy who authored the book on Schliemann, he was a friend and colleague, too. I found this extremely telling: - Janet Seymour-Smith was appalled at the lack of scholarship and in part was responsible for correcting Graves' work - the inference being that Mrs S-S's contribution was vital in establishing some degree of accuracy -  That's in line with what I thought, actually, tho I did not know about her. You are the most widely read person!!!

Amicah,
I must say I am  learning a great deal here at Senior Learn. I started to read the O. years ago and got sidetracked. This is WONDERFUL ! ]And i am getting to know how to use a keyboard as well . ] Thanks
We are DELIGHTED you found us and that you're enjoying the experience!

Babi, those were good points on the dance and the "still unidentified guest," and Joan K, that was another good one on the spell. Lots of magic here in the Phaecian kingdom.

But there's more...



ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1077 on: March 29, 2011, 04:02:22 PM »
This Book VIII is apparently an extremely important book. Every commentary I read refers back to Book VIII.  There's a lot going on here.

One major thing seems to be the blind bard Democodus and IS he in fact Homer put into the play? Apparently HE is the reason people think Homer was blind. Does the blind poet thing make what he has to sing about more important to the plot? What IS he singing about? The affair of  Ares and Aphrodite,  and how Hephaestus  caught them.

It seems a little incongruous to me, why is O crying at it? What message did you get from the subject matter? Did you get any message from it?

And then Demodocus has another song, the story of the Greeks sailing away with O in the Trojan Horse.  And so O cried again, but managed to conceal his tears from everybody but Alcinous at his elbow. Alcinous stops the music and asks O's name and then he tells a strange prophecy. This is just SOOO chilling:

But I remember hearing
My father, Nausithous, say how Poseidon
was angry with us because we always give
Safe passage to men. He said that one day
Poseidon would smite a Phaecian ship
As it sailed back home over the misty sea,
And would encircle our city within a  mountain.

Oh man, that gave me chills. There's an old Latin book from the 50's with a photo of this ship turned to rock or so the legends go, and so it's labeled. It's in black and white but I hope I can find it, it's really stunning.

But now what do you make of Demodocus's two songs here?  There are three songs,  really,  aren't there? One at the very beginning of this chapter, about the quarrel between O and Achilles. (Are there more than these 3 songs?)

The SONGS take up almost the whole book.

 Why are they here? It seems we're not the only ones to notice the tears and sighs  and hang dog expression. But again O "managed to conceal his tears from everyone/ Except Alcinous, who sat at his elbow."

What do you make of his two challengers, Laodamas and Euryalus?   They have got to be in here for a reason, why do you think this challenging to O is  here?  Do you all have the same names of these characters? I see "Broadsea" in another text?

What did you make of these incidents? Where's the famous "hospitality?"



ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1078 on: March 29, 2011, 04:18:09 PM »
I have two more things I HAVE to say hahahaa

1. Notice this stunning thing somewhere around (Lombardo is off his lines) 543-579 (page 123 Lombardo)

Alcinous speaking:

....so that our ships
May take you there, finding their way by their wits.
For Phaecian ships do not have pilots,
Nor steering oars, as other ships have.
They know on their own their passenger's thoughts,
And know all the cities and rich fields in the world,
And they cross the great gulfs  with the greatest speed,
Hidden in mist and fog, with never a fear
Of damage or shipwreck.

Magic. Here I see I read this passage incorrectly. it does not say they don't row, (or does it?). It  says they have no steering oars, does he mean keel? The rudder?  Or does he mean oars?  Their ships don't need "steering oars"  because they know their passenger's thoughts!

Dooo de doo dooo. Cue the Star Trek music,  isn't this marvelous? I just love it.

So if all this self propelling is going on, who has caused it? We've seen enough of god interference, who's behind this?

And finally I have been giddy with delight since last night when I found a fabulous scholarly article on why there are books in the Odyssey from JSTOR.  Apparently the idea of them being divided into books by somebody later, whether an Alexandrian critic like Zenodotus  or whoever  are now in doubt. I  have to say it's like breathing mountain air to see how many many MANY erudite men and women  have taken this small topic to heart and have written seriously exhaustively  researched articles on it and what the conclusions are and why. It's 14 pages and each one seems to glow. Maybe they are magic, too. :)  When I get through,  assuming I can understand what they are saying, hahaa  I'll report back but the conclusion seems to be Homer did them himself for a reason.  So far.

This is the kind of thing I just personally absolutely LOVE! I'm so glad you voted to do this!

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #1079 on: March 29, 2011, 04:21:58 PM »
Joan K we were posting together.


Remember the quote from the Iliad? I'll bet homer had bad knees!
  No, which one? The one about if your knees were as strong as your will or something?

 You are dead on about the blind bard Demodocus being thought of as the reason Homer was thought to be blind! Do you think D is Homer inserting himself into the poem?