Classics Book Club, The

[JudeS]

 
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

Now reading:

April 5----Books IX and X: The Cicones, the  Lotus  Eaters, and the Cyclops!  

The Lotus Eaters
17th century etching
Theodor van Thulden (1606 - 1669)

  

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  

Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
Map of the  Voyages of Odysseus
Map of Voyages in order
Map of Stops Numbered
Our Map Showing Place Names in the Odyssey

The blinding of Polyphemus
Lucanian red figure calyx krater
c. 400 BC
British Museum

Odysseus mixes wine for Polyphemus
John Flaxman
1805

oops! If Homer was blind he wasn't unfolding the scrolls Perhaps he wasn't the only act in town and there were other readers. Or perhaps the idea of the blind Homer really comes from the blind  bard in the odyssey itself
(as someone has suggested).

[BarbStAubrey]

Ginny thank goodness you shared

(1) Absolute tons of scholars, all footnoted and quoted, almost all of whom are well known and respected,  are totally and unequivocally at variance with each  other, and almost all of them disagree on the reason the Odyssey is in books and who put them in. Occasionally 2 or 3 will agree on one facet. This article was written in 2000.

Because this first chapter online in a book about Crying is not how I imagined crying and yet, it could fit since Odysseus cries covering his face with his sea-blue cape.

Transformative rituals and axioms about the sustaining pleasure of crying are found in many Greek sources as well. In The Iliad, Homer talks of the "desire for lamentation" and "taking satisfaction in lament." According to classicist W. B. Stanford, the function of poetry in Homer is to give pleasure to the listener even if the audience finds the story painful. Odysseus cries in pleasure, for instance, when the bard Demodokos tells the story of the Trojan horse, despite the pain he experiences in remembering lost comrades and lost time. And the pleasure of tears goes beyond such aesthetic response. Meneláos tells Odysseus that when he thinks of the men who died in the war, "nothing but grief is left me for those companions. While I sit at home sometimes hot tears come, and I revel in them, or stop before the surfeit makes me shiver." The tears here are somehow compensation for grief, and are the opposite of purgation—Meneláos was empty of everything but grief until his tears came, and then he reveled in them until he was surfeited, satiated. Euripides is even more explicit in The Trojan Women:

    How good are the tears, how sweet the dirges,
    I would rather sing dirges than eat or drink.

Here the "desire for lamentation" is a desire for pleasure and sweet satisfaction, more satisfying than food or drink. Weeping is so pleasurable that it can make one "shiver" with delight.

The information from the book talks about how whole tribes of Hebrews would go into the desert each Spring and start with "slowly moan and cry, moving from whimpering to weeping to wailing and then, over the course of several days, to frenzied hysterics and finally to raucous laughter in exhilaration before dissolving into giggles" over days that was to clear out the emotions. Hmmm maybe I am part Hebrew because that is often how I react even after the death of my son. The book also goes on to tell how the first record of crying is over the death of the god Ba'al - "found on Canaanite clay tablets dating from the fourteenth century B.C. Named after the village in northwestern Syria... Ugarit as a fabled city of advanced civilization and learning, no one was sure of its exact location until an Ugarit tomb was uncovered in Ras Shamra in 1931"

Odysseus sure goes from one emotion to the other - from weeping at the dinner table to besting everyone and proud of it on the gaming fields. And then more gifting  - has anyone ever read anything about all this gifting - I wonder - do you think this is a case of advanced quid pro quo - the world was small and in affect they are all neighbors during dangerous times. Is gifting buying insurance that is stronger than family or the treacherous gods...

[PatH]

Ginny, I'm glad you described the disagreements among classical scholars.  Sometimes when I disagree with an interpretation, I think "wait a minute--why aren't they seeing (whatever it is)? and I don't know which of us is missing something or seeing too much.  Now I have the answer: it's the disagreement of scholars, and I'm as good as any of them.

JoanR, thanks for reminding me of Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind.  I hadn't thought of it for a long time.  It would be interesting to know why Miyazaki chose that name.

Babi, now that you mention that the oil was scraped off, I remember that they had special tools for doing it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strigil

[Babi]

 GINNY, in one of your posts you inserted a quick question about the Smithsonian interview
with the author of "Helen of Troy", about her new book on Socrates. 'Bethany?' Hughes? Was
that the name? (It's very early, I'm still coming alert.)

 What a neat conclusion, JUDE. The scroll..thus, the story, unfolds. I like it!

 In one sense, BARB, I think all the gifting is a form of quid pro quo. Since any of them
could find themselves in a position similar to Odysseus, at any time, it makes sense to
keep a cultural standard of welcoming and succoring a guest and helping him get back on
his feet.  "There but for the grace of God...."   Or in the case of the ancients, "There, by the
curse of the gods...."?

[ginny]

Babi, thank you, I've got Second Acts, My Kind of Town, Cleveland, Ohio on page 16 by Charles Michener. Maybe you've got the May edition?  I bet it was the March edition and I threw that one away!)

Entertainment Magazine sure is on the superheroes, tho. Arnold  Schwarzenegger  is coming out the 4th pf April  with a new cartoon/ comic book hero the Governator. Drawn by Stan Lee (who looks absolutely amazing at 85), it's possible it will make a movie too, takes on Facebook, it's very very clever. More also on other super heroes and somewhere one of the actors says they're the Greek gods of our time

Isn't that interesting? The Governator will have suits he can put on to be in the same mist that Athena did for Odysseus,  and other guises as well. Isn't it exciting to be reading this and be able to see the influences?

Pat H: Sometimes when I disagree with an interpretation, I think "wait a minute--why aren't they seeing (whatever it is)? and I don't know which of us is missing something or seeing too much.  Now I have the answer: it's the disagreement of scholars, and I'm as good as any of them.

When you consider that it's the reader who carries on the tradition by reading it and bringing it to life again in his or her own mind, then reading like this in a group and talking about it,  when we either don't see a point or see one nobody else sees brings the tradition to  a new level, I think. Plus keep in mind none of us have read all the scholarly articles and  books written on this and I have a feeling somebody somewhere may have thought somewhat on the same lines we might  in the last 2000 years. Perhaps not.  But we know how it resonates with us.

Barbara, interesting on the crying and lamentation, thank you, and a great question: And then more gifting  - has anyone ever read anything about all this gifting - I wonder - do you think this is a case of advanced quid pro quo - the world was small and in affect they are all neighbors during dangerous times. Is gifting buying insurance that is stronger than family or the treacherous gods...

 I wonder if in a way, the accepted social mores of all societies  are sort of a quid pro quo?   You can extrapolate it and apply it to a lot of varied things.

JoanR, I need to read the Mason Odyssey again, I think I'll wait at least till we get to Chapter 12 here so I can appreciate what he's done.

Thank you for the reference to Nausicaa, the movie. I have never heard of it!

I just saw last night another piece about  Speaker of the House John  Boehner who seems to do a lot of weeping in public, or at least they show it every 2 minutes.  Since I'm not around him personally but only see him in the act of breaking down on television and it's  played over and over and over,  I think maybe  the incidents are exaggerated by this constant replaying, and are not something he does every minute. I think if it were something that occurred every five minutes or so you'd want to ask, like Alcinous, what's really going on?

We probably need to move on on Tuesday to Books 9 and 10. Together are they 20 pages? I wish every book were like this,  it makes for such easy and enjoyable reading,  most can easily read 20 pages in 3 days.

In 9 O finally begins  his tale and we FINALLY get to see him in action as a hero and a very clever one at that.

I'm trying to think of how many other books could hold off the actual story till the 9th chapter, there WAS one recently but I can't think now what it was.

So the blind bard sings three songs. Two on the events of the Trojan War, in which we hear that O is a VERY well known hero (and here he sits incognito in our midst),  and one on cuckolding, the husband catches his wife with the guy in the act.  Laughter  all around, both the watching gods in the story and the audience at the palace. It's a hit. O on this one is NOT crying because perhaps he? Assumes that Penelope is not doing this? Has trust in her, even tho he's been compelled to stray? Wonder why it doesn't occur to him that a passing male god might have had the same effect on her?

___________________

How are we doing with the Temple questions?

194-210 Alcinous introduces exhibitions of dancing; Demodokos sings of Hephaestus' revenge on Ares and Aphrodite. Why does Odysseus react to this story differently? More dancing, and gifts for O. He now asks Demodocus for a certain story and weeps again. Alcinous questions him. Think about the content of the songs, O's response to them, and the epithets given to him in this book. What is going on? Do you recall another incident of weeping at dinner? Also, do you like the Phaeacians? Do they resemble any other group of people?

Interpretive interlude

We are now 1/3 of the way through, and the epic can in fact be divided into three parts. In Book 9, we see Odysseus at the beginning of his return; in Books 5-8, near the end, 10 years later. Has he changed? How?

Try thinking again about Books 6-9 as an anthropologist might in investigating alien cultures. How would you categorize or classify these cultures? As always with myth, think about food. Why do you think Homer has put them all in the epic? Remember, Homer does nothing without cause.

Start thinking about the type of human being that Odysseus personifies and about the larger allegorical significance of his journeys. The Odysseus myth has influenced texts from Dante's Inferno, to Joyce's Ulysses, to Conrad's Lord Jim, to Huckleberry Finn -- even Captain James T. Kirk of the Starship Enterprise (yes, think about that!) owes much of his identity to Odysseus.


Of course we're not TO 9 yet, we may want to keep these in mind. (They sure are full of spelling errors, I have to keep correcting them!)

I'm still, for my part, hung up on the two young bucks challenging him. Are they too full of vino?  He's been weeping over the song of Achilles and Agamemnon but pulls his cape over his head. Alcinous notices this (the groans alone would alert one) but nobody else does,. I am not seeing joy here.  So A says let's put on one of our boxing wrestling jumping footraces events to show our honored guest.  And off they go.

First a race. Then jumping discus boxing and the king's SON says,  you look good, let's invite the stranger to participate. So he does. He makes the statement about there's no greater glory but he's also noted before that O is somewhat "broken" by his time at sea, he's out of shape, still he thinks he's got what it takes. (But maybe in the back of his mind they can beat him?)

That seems innocent enough, sort of a game high they're all on?  Testosterone flowing kind of thing, manly challenge?

And O responds rather strangely, to me, "Laodamas, why do you provoke me like this
I have more serious things on my mind
Than track and field.
 I've had my share of suffering,
And paid my dues. Now I sit in the middle
Of your assembly, longing to return home,
A suppliant before your kind and all the people."


That's a nice answer and a humble one for our Epic hero.  I can't see Agamemnon saying that, nor especially Achilles. Here he says, this great and famous godlike hero, sung about yet by the bard, that he's a suppliant. We should note this, O can be very humble when he likes.

 Does this increase or decrease your respect for him?

Is this normal for a Greek super hero?

Where by the way is the omnipresent  Athene at this point?


But then it escalates. Euryalus says he's seen a lot of sportsmen,
"And you don't look like one to me at all.
You look more like the captain of a merchant ship,
Plying the seas with a crew of hired hands
And keeping a sharp eye on his cargo,
Greedy for profit. No, you're no athlete."

Them's fighting words, buddy. hahahaa

That's an insult to his manhood in any century, you're just a greedy merchant. This does show us the culture of the day, doesn't it? If you read the Schwarzenegger article you see it's not over either. I recommend it, actually.

So then O enters the contest, throws the discus, gets Nausicaa, now smitten, on his cheering squad and cheers up himself:

"Step right up-- I'm angry now--
I don't care if it's boxing, wrestling,
Or even running. Come one, come all--
Except Laodamas, who is my host.
Only a fool would challenge the man
Who gives him hospitality in a distant land.
He would only wind up hurting himself.."

He means if he wins over Laodamas, he, who is presumably the age of Alcinous to start with, that he'd hurt himself if he won.

Here O is showing us some fine thinking,  even tho he let Euryalus goad him into throwing the discus, he's thinking all the time. In this one speech he reminds L he's the host and he's in danger of breaking this xenia  generosity courtesy hospitality thing, and that only a fool would take him up on it personally. He's just told Euryalus that he IS a fool:  by his words he's "crippled" in the mind. It's clear that even enraged O is in control of his mind and careful in what he says and does.

And what's the result? If you were writing this what would have happened? What did?

I like this segment. We have a world today where young men get the wind up, especially under the influence of an after dinner crowd where the booze  flows freely and challenges are thrown, and I like the maturity here O shows and the presence of mind even WHEN he's shown them he can still deliver the goods. I love what Homer has done here, he's captured it on both sides beautifully.

It's amazing (I just watched Jersey Shore again last night) how some things never change. Or maybe the more things change the more they stay the same. You can see this from the POV of the aging man and the young one, too. Amazing writing.


What are your thoughts on anything through Book 8 before we move on Tuesday to 9 and 10? As PatH says your thoughts are as good as anybody else's and we'd love to hear them!

[JoanK]

GINNY: " He did lose me with Zenodotus "since he athetized the 'Shield of Achilles' in the Iliad,"  "

I don'tt know what "athetized" means either. But I was struck by this phrase, because the scene with nausicaa reminded me too strongly of the scene in the Iliad where vulcan makes a sheild for Achilles. The shield has two pictures, one of a cirty at war, and one of a peaceful scene in the woods of young people playing and laughing.

here in the Iliad, and in the scene in Nausicaa in the Odyssey of the young women playing ball by the sea, Homer gives us his vision of the idyllic life, what life could be, to hold up against the horrible scenes of trouble, pain and death in the rest of the Iliad and Odyssey.

[BarbStAubrey]

 Not easy to find but this is what I did find Joan

Ath´e`tize
v. t.   1.   To set aside or reject as spurious, as by marking with an obelus.
[imp. & p. p. Athetized ; p. pr. & vb. n. Athetizing .]

obe·lus
noun \-ləs\
plural ob·e·li\-ˌlī, -ˌlē\
Definition of OBELUS
1
: a symbol − or ÷ used in ancient manuscripts to mark a questionable passage
2
: the symbol ÷

[PatH]

  On another issue, of the cleaning with oil, I was always under the impression that the
oil, along with any deep grime it loosened, was scraped away. And certainly the oil was
important in keeping the skin hydrated in those hot southern climes.

Now that you remind me, Babi, I remember that they even had special tools, strigils, for scraping off the oily grime.  Here's a vase showing it--side B, scroll down for description.

http://www.royalathena.com/pages/greekcatalog/Vases/AtticRF/PK0994K.html

[PatH]

Ginny:

We should note this, O can be very humble when he likes.

This is an important part of Odysseus' character that we haven't yet seen (except that when he first comes to Alcinous' house he sits quietly in the ashes of the hearth until they notice him).  It will serve him well.

[PatH]

Poseidon as protector of the Phaeacians:  the Phaeacians seem to be under Poseidon's protection, and have a huge temple to him.  Alcinous is Poseidon's grandson, and Arete is his great granddaughter (through the same person; they're first cousins once removed).  I don't know if this will protect them from his wrath when they give Odysseus transport or not.

[roshanarose]

Ginny and PatH - (Book 7) Alcinous and Arete both know that Poseidon (and Zeus) have given Odysseus many "dour griefs" and tried to dispose of him.

As Odysseus begins telling the king and queen  how he came to be washed up on their island, Phaecia, he mentions that both Zeus and Poseidon are responsible for his wretched state.  Before he meets Calypso:

"...Zeus had let drive with a dazzling thunder-bolt at our good ship
and riven it in the wine dark unbounded sea"

O continues to tell Alcinous and Arete about travelling on the raft made by Calypso:

"My heart exulted - too soon:  for it was written that I should yet know the further dour griefs allotted me by by Poseidon the Earth-shaker, who stirred up the winds to block my passage and raised such seas as not even the gods could tell of."

After telling them this, iIt should be clear to the king and queen that Odysseus is ill-favoured by Zeus and Poseidon.   !Spoiler alert!

NOTE:  My translation is by T.E. Lawrence in prose who doesn't mention the almost supernatural (Star Trek style as Ginny says) ability of the Phaecian ships.  I kind of wish Lawrence had described the ships as fantastically as the other translator.  Anyway, it all makes for good copy and lively discussion.

[Babi]

 Alas, GINNY, it was the March edition.  No matter..you can still get the Socrates bio.
if you like.

PATH, you embolden me to confess. After trying several times to read Plato's Republic,
and getting bogged down in the fifth chapter(?) every time, I came to the brave conclusion
that it didn't make sense to me for the simple reason that it DIDN'T MAKE SENSE! The
brilliant man's ideas were amazing for his day, but in the light of the knowledge we've
gained since, I take leave to think they were mistaken.
  ps: I knew there was an instrument for scraping the skin, but couldn't remember what is
was called. And aren't those vases beautiful?

 GINNY, the translation you cite, of O's response to Laodamas, has too modern a sound to
me. I think it's the phrase "paid my dues" that does it. I like Fitzgerald's translation.
 "Laodamas, why do you young chaps challenge me?
  I have more on my mind than track and field-
   hard days , and many, have I seen, and suffered,
   I sit here at your field meet, yes; but only
   As one who begs your king to send me home."
As you say, a nice and humble reply. And yes, it did increase my respect for him.

[ginny]

 Babi, I liked that "paid my dues." Different strokes. I felt more respect for him too, and unlike a lot of the other episodes I am not seeing the constant epithets about "always thinking," which signal us the reader that he's doing a bit of cogitation.  Murray doesn't mention it either, but he does say "the resourceful" Odysseus before he answers, which shows us, I guess, he's thinking. Kind of like the new Museum movie, where The Thinker goes "I'm thinking, I'm thinking..." hahahaa

That was Lombardo I quoted but did not attribute to.

PatH, Poseidon as protector of the Phaeacians:  the Phaeacians seem to be under Poseidon's protection, and have a huge temple to him.  Alcinous is Poseidon's grandson, and Arete is his great granddaughter (through the same person; they're first cousins once removed).  I don't know if this will protect them from his wrath when they give Odysseus transport or not.  Man that's some connection! No wonder they're cocky.

RoshanaRose, oh good points on what O thinks the Earthshaker has done to him in the past. but that doesn't seem to bother A at the time?  He still offers a ship, but that's before he knows who O is. I wonder if it will make any difference.

Maybe  A feels so secure in this family relationship that he does not worry about these things? If so he's about to come a cropper, huh?

I love the tension here, and I missed entirely those two passages many thanks.

On the magic ships Star Trek aspect, it's not a Lombardo thing, here are two more:

(1) Murray's literal translation in 1919 has:

line 555 ff: And tell me your country, your people, and your city, that our ships may convey you there, discerning the course by their wits.

For the Phaecians have no pilots, nor steering oars such as other ships have, but the ships themselves understand the thoughts and minds of men, and they know the cities and rich fields of all peoples, and the gulf of the sea they cross most quickly, hidden in mist and cloud, nor ever have the fear of damage or shipwreck.

______________________________

(2) I was curious as to what the flowery Pope might make of it in 1725 and here's his take:


In wondrous ships, self-moved (!!!) instinct with mind;
No helm secures their course, no pilot guides;
Like man intelligent, they plough the tides,
Conscious of every coast, and every bay,
That lies beneath the sun's all -seeing ray;
Through clouds and darkness veil the encumber'd sky,
Fearless through darkness and through clouds they fly;

Unless I'm losing it, did he just say they need no rowers?


Talk about Star Trek!

What do your texts have for lines 555 on about the 'magic ships?" What does Cook say, Gum?

That was interesting on the obelus, Barbara.

That's a good point, Joan K, about the scenes here of a happy life, this does seem to be a nice interlude before the considerable storms to come. Talk about the troubles of Job! You kind of want to see him succeed.

I think maybe as readers we need these interludes. For contrast. Those of you who read the Iliad: can you imagine the great Agamemnon or Achilles sitting in ashes as a "suppliant?" I guess in their case pride went before the fall.

But his weeping, his showing of emotion, and emotion caused by the longing for his wife and home  makes him more human than they seemed. Seems to me Achilles got his emotions out in anger. When his friend Patroclus was killed, he went on an awful rampage.  O seems a feeling hero who is not so big he can't be humble. And now in 9 he's about to tell his story. I love the Cyclops part, it's, well I was about to say it's what most people remember from the Odyssey but I see Circe here too and the Lotus Eaters, and of course not to forget Penelope and her situation,  we're about to find out what happened to his men and his ships. What a story! What an adventure!   I can't think of anything modern which compares to it.

I was about to say even Superman had to go in a phone booth or something and put on a suit...and that makes me wonder why O doesn't have to put on a suit to do his stuff? The only time he gets to  have a metaphorical "suit" is when  A wraps him in a mist, but he's about to put on a physical  one... can't wait for 9.

I find self warming to O finally and I don't know why? hahaha

How do YOU feel about him? Do you care if he makes it back or not? We have a penchant for the underdog, do the challenges of the young bucks at Alcinous's palace make you more or less on his side? (Looks like bullying can occur any time any place, huh?)...wonder what brings it on?

Anyway it's got a lot of modern applications despite the gods and goddesses who are never far from sight or view tho mysteriously absent here. I am not sure what that means, either.

It's really getting good, now. What IF it had started with 9?  Would you have personally liked the book more or less? Supposedly we live in an Attention Deficit Disorder world, short little attention spans, get it out and over with. We don't have that here, does that affect your enjoyment or interest?

Inquiring mind or what passes for it would love to know.

[ginny]

Babi, here's the Smithsonian article with Bettany Hughes on Socrates:

It definitely says April, but you've noted the in print article is in the March issue. Looks like she already has a naysayer commenting,  it will be interesting to see more comments.

  The OCCL says the charges were (1) "In 399 he was brought to trial  by Anytus Meletus and Lycon on the charge of not believing in the gods whom Athens believed in but of introducing new gods," and (2) "of corrupting the youth of the city."

So they're both right, neither goes far enough. Two versions of Socrates' speech in his own defense exist in the Apology by Plato and in that by Xenophon but "neither makes exactly clear the precise significance of the charges. They were connected, however, with  Socrates's well -known association with many of the Thirty Tyrants who overthrew the democracy. ...The attack on him was not merely because of the political views of his proteges, it was also felt  that he had undermined the traditional morality and religion of the city, the practice  of which had in former times, it was felt, made Athens great....."

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/Bettany-Hughes-on-Socrates.html

[Dana]

I think the Phaikians were a people not human like the rest of us, especially loved by the gods, who lived in a garden of Eden.  Their land as described is like no real place--abundant fresh water and produce at all times and so on, a lyrical description

Regarding the prophecy.  I believe it was regarded as tempting the gods to try to subvert "fate".  If a prophecy said something was to happen and you tried to change that, it usually went wrong anyway.  Look at when Croesus tried to protect his son from being killed--it happened anyway, by the man who was supposed to protect him.  One gets the distinct impression that Croesus, as described by Herodotus, was thought to have too much hubris in trying to find a way round the will of the gods, and punished for it.  And that's just one example.  So i don't think the prophecy would stop Odysseus from asking or the Phaiakians from responding to his request because to give him the ship was the right thing to do and if they refused the gods would twist things around anyway so the prophecy was fulfilled.

[Gumtree]

What do your texts have for lines 555 on about the 'magic ships?" What does Cook say, Gum?

Tell me your land and your district and your city,
So that the ships that are steered by thought may convey you there,
For there exist no pilots among the Phaeacians,
And there are no rudders at all such as other ships have,
But the ships themselves know the intentions and minds of men.
They know the cities and fertile fields of all men
And very swiftly, shrouded in mist and a cloud,
They traverse the gulf of the sea. There is no fear
At all for them that they suffer harm or be lost. (Cook VIII: 555-563)

The thing that gets me in this passage is that fact that the Greeks could envisage 'thought control' of the ships.

Oops - I've just got here and I have to go - maybe back tomorrow.

[BarbStAubrey]

Fagles says,

"For we have no steersmen here among Phaeacia's crews
or steering-oars that guide your common craft.
Our ships know in a flash their mates' intentions,
know all ports of call and all the rich green fields.
With wings of the wind they cross the sea's huge gulfs,
shrouded in mist and cloud-no fear in the world of foundering,
fatal shipwreck."

Looking for the practical in the story I wonder if "With wings of the wind" mean they used sailing vessels with a large and more responsive sail. Also, I wonder what the currents were like in their area - maybe they went to sea and the currents and natural direction of the prevailing winds pulled them back to their home port.

Yes, the Phaikians homeland sure does sound like an Edan doesn't it - had a thought on the gifting - I wonder if it set a precedent still carried on today -  visiting the many libraries and museums of past president's always there is a showcase that includes all these fabulous gifts received from ambassadors and heads of foreign governments -  and I guess today the issue of foreign-aid stems from this hospitality and gift giving  so that continued practice makes it easy to accept the outstanding hospitality Odysseus receives as part of the fabric of life.

And then one other thought in this chapter - I wonder if Shakespeare was influenced by Homer - the songs that are stories remind me of how Shakespeare used a story within a story in Hamlet - oh and the other play about summer and the character with the horses head - galloping senility and I cannot think the name. There may be others but those two Shakespeare plays come to mind.

[roshanarose]

Have any of you ever wondered why all these places/islands Odysseusvisits have such varied and unique, and often downright murderous inhabitants?  Is it all just a fairy story or is there some element of truth in the telling?  

Between c2000BCE and 600BCE People were on the move into Greece: Nomadic Hellenes c2000BCE; the Dorians moved into Greece c1100BCE; and then mainland Greeks started to colonise places in Sicily (Syracusa) c700BCE all the way up to Naples (Neapoli - meaning New city).  In 600BCE the Greeks colonised Marseilles and then some of the colonists from Marseilles founded other colonies in Antibes, Nice, and Agde.  The name Nice actually comes from the Greek word for victory NIKE.  These colonists went on to colonise Sardinia and Corsica; Naukratis in Egypt and Kyrene (Libya). There are many more, two as far away as Spain.

Nice map/s to help.  

http://learningobjects.wesleyan.edu/greek_colonies/  

I have never colonised anywhere, but I am still part of a colony and my country is a loooong way from Europe and the US.   I have only visited one country in which I didn't feel comfortable and that was Egypt.  In Cairo so many strange sights and smells and I felt that there were many people there who I could not trust.  I was nearly accosted twice, both times in very good hotels, by the bell boys!  Anyway what I am leading up to is - even now although we may see on TV or DVD or read in books or online what these exotic places look like and learn of their history and culture, way back c.700BCE, landing by boat at any of these places would have been daunting, to say the least for the colonisers.  They probably had to deal with a great deal of hostility from the original inhabitants.

This is a quote from Michael Grant p.146, The Rise of The Greeks:

"But before the poet [Homer] comes to the more static second half of Odyssey........the hero [Odysseus] is tossed up on strange lands, which as Eratosthenes pointed out as early as the second century  BC, defy indentification.  Yet, unidentifiable though they are and intended to be, the wonderful accounts of these places reflect, in a general sense, the bold journeys actually accomplished during the age of migrations, which preceded and prepared the way for the feats of the Greek colonizers."

Theory or truth?  Could these Homeric mysteries be explained by the experiences of the colonists c700BCE?  Although we undertstand that Homer was writing about the Bronze Age , the timing in Ancient History is correct to use the recent Greek colonisation as inspiration for Odysseus' adventures.  

ibidp.140

"The poems seemed to have reached their final, or nearly final form in c.750/700BC more than 200 years, that is to say, after the arrival of the Ionians upon the island of Chios and half a millenium later than the supposed events events that their poet purported to describe."




 

[Gumtree]

but I am still part of a colony

Hey Roshanarose - in case you haven't heard, Australia became a nation on 1st January 1901 - it's called the Commonwealth of Australia. 

[roshanarose]

Haha Gum - I knew I would get a bite out of you.  Luv ya!

[Babi]

 Glad you found it, GINNY. I've still got my copy and a number of articles in it I want
to read. I just have to squeeze them in between other reading.

 You must be thinking of "Midsummer Night's Dream", BARB.

  You notice how everything is attributed to some god or other?  If there is a storm it’s Zeus’ fault, or Poseidon’s .  Storms do come up at sea, even when feeble men aren’t there. And
why do they take for granted that some god would destroy a whole boatload of men out of anger at one man?

[ginny]

Thank you Gum, and Barbara for two other versions of the ships, it's clear they are fantastical, I liked that "thought control," Gum.

It's about to get a lot more fantastical!!

Babi, that's a good point on the gods always being thought of when anything happens, and a good question: And
why do they take for granted that some god would destroy a whole boatload of men out of anger at one man?   That's an interesting question. There was something quite like it in one of the Pirates of the Caribbean movie. They wanted to get Cap'n Jack Sparrow off the boat because if they didn't whoever (Davy Jones?) would take the entire ship of them down. Nobody seems to question that in the movie, or in the audiences, I wonder why? Once you articulate it, it does not make sense.

I am seeing a lot of derivative films from this, especially having just read 9 again.

Let's just do 9 for starters starting tomorrow?  There are a million things going on in it!!

Since I'm to have major storms here forecast for tomorrow I've put up the heading now, let's hold on the Temple questions and see what you thought of it. I just absolutely love this chapter.

RoshannaRose, that's interesting on Michael Grant idea about colonization and how it might relate to the Odyssey sailings, and thank you for the great link to the great maps of Greek colonies. The animation is something else and I do like the fuller explanations. For some reason I did not realize Cyrene was a Greek colony, I need to read up on that.

_________________________________


I love this chapter and it looks like we've encountered another  Eden here as well.

Don't you find the numbers interesting? 6 men lost from each ship for starters among the Cicones? Why? Notice nobody is blaming the gods this time. We're about to find out how lost his ships and men.

What, in this Book 9, is causing their problems? Is there one thing which predominates all the adventures?

And I loved this part:


I wouldn't let the ships get under way
Until someone had called out three times
For each mate who had fallen on the battlefield. (65ff or so)

That's impressive. I wonder if it's the origin of some of our customs today, I can think of several times in memorial that names are read, thinking of 9/11.

Then the Lotus  Eaters, shades of Star Trek, who I think copied this themselves.

And THEN the Cyclops!

You don't get a whole lot better than this. How clever O is on the spur of the moment! Noman. There is no way I could ever have thought of that one, ever.

He IS smart.

And the descriptions!!! This is as good as any book, this bit, so evocative. Which description  did you like best?

What struck you the most about Book 9? You can read it in 5 minutes, but don't, it's worth a nice sit down and contemplation.

Would you call Odysseus modest?

What do you think of his character in this segment?

Where does the blame need to lie here? With the gods?

I loved the surprise at the end of  the story, the revelation of who was the father of the Cyclops!!  Can't you just see the audience gasping and sitting up?

What's O's reaction to this news item and what is the result?

Lots going on here for us tomorrow!!

[BarbStAubrey]

Batten down the hatches Ginny - that storm is sweeping across the nation - we had the experience this morning and the sky was scary -

I can see if you have no idea of science, your place in the Universe and still believing the earth is flat held up by monster size tree trunks that the gods are in control especially if you see a sky like we saw here this morning.

Ever since I've had 'Moaning Myrtle' camped in the trees in my side yard since the other day, she is increasing her moans to wailes - the wind...whew...TV says gusting at 52 and blowing at 40 - at this rate we will have all of west Texas on our roofs by nightfall. I ended up taking the safer route by pulling the plug on most all my electronics and just now plugged back the computer.  

[Frybabe]

Roshannarose, I was struck by your comments about the migrations into Greece and westward. Perhaps great migrations spawn these heroic tales. When I read The Nibelungenlied the introduction stated that the tale, or tales strung together into one (sound familiar?), is thought to have been triggered by the Hun migrations into Eastern Europe. BTW, I am awaiting the arrival of J. R. R. Tolkein's, The Legend of Sigurd and Gundrun. This is not a translation, but his own retelling of the Norse version of the tales. This was written before The Hobbit, etc. but only recently published.

[JoanK]

PATH: I love those bath tools. Hard to tell if they're brushes, or more like combs -- I'm betting the latter.

BABI: "why do they take for granted that some god would destroy a whole boatload of men out of anger at one man? "

you see that all through ancient literature. It seems so unjust to us, but not to them. But it makes it easier to explain misfortune: if bad luck comes, you can always find one person on board who has earned it.

I'm reminded of the "Jonahs" in our literature's stories. If a person on board was suspected of being a "jonah" i.e. a person who had been doomed to bad luck, the other sailors felt justified in throwing him overboard to save the ship.

[JoanK]

Barb: I hope "Moaning myrtle" has gone away. Or you can flush her!

I wonder how much Homer influenced Shakespeare, too. The forests with young men and women wondering through sound very Greek. And I should go look at The Tempest to see how much the island there sounds like it could be one that O visited.

[Dana]

In reading chapter 9 I am beset with curiosity about how the Phaiakians reacted to finally being told, " I am Laertes' son Odysseus" .  I'm tempted to skip ahead and take a look, but have restrained myself (so far)
I'm really struck with Odysseus' stupidity in this chapter.  Why did he go off to meet the Cyclops.  he had no need to.  Why did he taunt him by telling him his name and thus calling down the wrath of Poseidon.  Now we can see he really sows the seeds of his own misery.  Perhaps that is the point--no matter how polytropos we may be, we still mess things up for ourselves and everyone else. 

I must look up the Greek for
......................but he seemed rather
a shaggy mountain, reared in solitude.

[Dana]

well the translation is,

...nor was he like
a grain eating man, but rather from another kind
from a wooded peak of lofty mountains.

[BarbStAubrey]

Dana is there more meaning to the translation - it sounds to me like grain grows in the lowlands and he is characterized as someone who lives with a higher opionion of himself than the average lowland grain eater. And in fact a lofty mountain peak filled with woods indicating not a barren mountain but one filled with substance - sort of a left handed compliment - is that it or am I missing something?

[roshanarose]

Barb - "Moaning Myrtle" must has flown very quickly from Tx to Queensland, she was here last night.  One of my favourite characters from Harry Potter.  I hope we are talking about the same one.

Sailors are notoriously superstitious and the Greeks are/were no exception.  Playing the blame game they felt absolved them of any disaster, as someone said.  We still say things like "somebody up there likes me" and "what have I done to deserve this?" But often now our monotheistic deity still gets the blame for earthquakes, tsunamis and volcanoes.  The Greeks were much closer to their gods, they were almost semi-domesticated, after all they did live on earth at Mt Olympus.  I have only driven past it in a bus, but it certainly looks like it could be the gods' home.  Also don't forget that after poor old Jonah, women were considered bad luck on boats and got the blame for sailing calamities.  This superstition still exists in some South Sea Islands.  Another way of keeping women "barefoot and pregnant and doing the housework at home". 

From Frybabe - Roshannarose, I was struck by your comments about the migrations into Greece and westward. Perhaps great migrations spawn these heroic tales. When I read The Nibelungenlied the introduction stated that the tale, or tales strung together into one (sound familiar?), is thought to have been triggered by the Hun migrations into Eastern Europe.

Those tales continue in our collective psyches to this day as far as I am concerned.  New material is needed. 

[JudeS]

roshanarose;
When you mentioned that sailors are superstitous it brought to mind the great poem by Samuel Taylor Coleridge-The Albatross-(Remember-Water, water all around but not a drop to drink). As late as the 1800s we have this:
And I had done a hellish thing
And it would work 'em woe
For all averred, I had killed the bird
That made the breeze to blow.
Ah wretch! said they such birds to slay
That made the breeze to blow.

There are inumerable tales of magical and frightening things  happening upon the seas. Perhaps all influenced by Odysseus or perhaps long voyages on the sea leads to great imagintive thoughts.

[BarbStAubrey]

Yep, sorta fun - Homer had the gods I choose to call out the imagination of JK Rowling - for the past few days first in this incredible still life, dripping mist that had a stirring that sounded like moaning and then today, this fierce wind was easily heard out the window that faces the side yard where I have set up my office - the Greeks of 800BC and before may have believed in gods - I just think it is fun to associate happenings with fun characters from literature.

With all of Odysseus' fame that he outlines and brags on he still says it is the women who held him captive - Calypso the 'lustrous goddess' and so he is mesmerized by luster and the magic of a goddess saying these qualities held him back from his rugged land, no sweeter sight on earth - nothing here about Penelope as his reason to get back to sunny Ithaca -

And then we have a 'warmly' women who bewitched him - and so we know warmth from a women is irresistible to our hero who expresses neither women won his heart but then, Circe won something because he still does not mention Penelope - his parents, yes ---

And then to top it off he wants everyone to know he, at Ismarus was the one who said to his men - let's go - and so it is the fault of the men and Zeus that they were left vulnerable to the Cicones who broke their lines leaving him with the few to row away glad to escape their death.

On and on he goes telling us of storms, the magic power of lotus eating, lured to a cave, his fears, his heart shaking, his cunning, his weeping but not once does he tell us he missed, wept, thought beautiful, his son and wife back on Ithaca. He could spike the Cyclops and hold off his men as they tried to quiet his burst of anger but he, Odysseus could not fight off either Calypso or Circe - my oh my....

 Well we are only a third of the way through this story so maybe his prowess will show him matching this conflicting show of strength - we shall see what we shall see!

[Gumtree]

As usual I'm running behind - must catch up the reading tonight.

Frybabe:

I am awaiting the arrival of J. R. R. Tolkein's, The Legend of Sigurd and Gundrun

I bought Sigurd and Gundrun the day it was released but it's still in my TBR pile. I need another couple of days in each week.

[Frybabe]

 

[Babi]

 GINNY, I would make a difference between what a pirate would do and what I would expect
of a god. When it comes to these Greek and Roman gods, perhaps I shouldn't. 
 I don’t at all understand why Zeus   has refused Odysseus’ sacrifice and determined to do him harm.  After all, the Cyclops grossly repudiated all Zeus’ laws of hospitality..to say the least.  Why should he be angry because the monster’s prey escaped?  Poseidon, yes...but
why Zeus?

 

if bad luck comes, you can always find one person on board who has earned it.

Ah, yes, JOANK.  Shades of Jonah!!

[ginny]

Well it's not raining and we're still here despite that awful storm, I sure hope you all are!  What an awful sight that thing was crossing the country on the radar  from the Midwest. We're fine despite a ton of trees down, and I hope everybody else anywhere else confronted with such a thing is, too.

Great conversations here. I love the allusions to Coleridge,  Toklein,  Rowling and Shakespeare.  The entire experience is pretty amazing,  when you start to look at it.

Babi, what a good question: I don’t at all understand why Zeus   has refused Odysseus’ sacrifice and determined to do him harm.  After all, the Cyclops grossly repudiated all Zeus’ laws of hospitality..to say the least.  Why should he be angry because the monster’s prey escaped?  Poseidon, yes...but
why Zeus?

What do you all think?

Dana, what a provocative statement! Here I am thinking how smart O is in Book 9 and here you are saying:  I'm really struck with Odysseus' stupidity in this chapter.  Why did he go off to meet the Cyclops.  he had no need to.  Why did he taunt him by telling him his name and thus calling down the wrath of Poseidon.  Now we can see he really sows the seeds of his own misery.  Perhaps that is the point--no matter how polytropos we may be, we still mess things up for ourselves and everyone else.  

I love provocative questions.  What  do you all think? In Book 9 do you all see O as stupid?

 If you do, how so? If you don't, why not?

What else is driving him in Book 9? If it's not stupidity, what is it?

Do you think more or less of him after reading 9?

[JoanK]

ROSE: "Sailors are notoriously superstitious." It's still true!! I'm addicted to the reality show on the Discovery Channelcalled "Deadliest Catch" which follows crab fishermen in the Bering Sea. All of them have their superstitions. Once, one of them wouldn't leave port when he found his lucky something-or-other wasn't on board. On another boat, someone has to eat a raw fish before they start to bring luck.

And JUDE when they see a sea animalor bird, someone always asks if that's good or bad luck. Not as much has changed, as we like to think).

(Of course, I can't talk. I'm convinced that what I do or don't do while rooting influences whether my sports team wins or not. But that's not superstition: it's true!)

[JoanK]

BABI: "I don’t at all understand why Zeus   has refused Odysseus’ sacrifice and determined to do him harm.  After all, the Cyclops grossly repudiated all Zeus’ laws of hospitality..to say the least.  Why should he be angry because the monster’s prey escaped?  Poseidon, yes..."

Even Poseidon. After all, the cyclops was going to eat him! What did he expect O to do.

[roshanarose]

JoanK - On another boat, someone has to eat a raw fish before they start to bring luck. Goodness me, I sure hope that raw fish is in the form of sushi!!!

I sometimes think that there is a little messenger who is going around these places before O and his men land letting them know about him and what they can expect.  And I am not talking about Hermes!

[JudeS]

Ginny,
You asked if this chapter makes us like or dislike Odysseus.
Hmm-First I see he is a terrible show off.  The kind of guy who has to respond to every challenge no matter how stupid it is. He has to keep proving himself by outwitting others.In this chapter he has a real mean monster to outwit. He uses his clever deceit to his advantage to once again save himself and his men.
I picture the audience listening to the reading (or telling) of this chapter laughing at the clever joke of Odysseus calling himself "Nobody". Like in every good cliffhanger, Odysseus once again is saved.

So do I like him more or less? Well neither. I feel like saying "Odysseus grow up already! Go home if thats what you want. But you seem to be having one hell of a good time on the way. Obviously its glory you want. O.K. but how much more of this silliness do we have to endure?"