This book is really something. What a joy to see everybody here with all different opinions all over the place!! That's the way it should be.
Such changes here in our hero! First of all, he's telling the story in this book in the First Person, he's saying I and we. So he's telling the story, not the 3rd person omniscient narrator. And O in person is somewhat different from the hero on a pedestal that we might have expected.
Your questions here are fabulous. In fact one of them has taken me half the day and in so doing I have wished I could find my Greek history books, I put them away thinking I'd have no need of them, boy was that wrong, and I'm having quite the time not using Wikipedia. I had no idea it has gotten so bad. I know they pay to get their listings first but it's ridiculous to have go 10 pages of google just to find anybody else of value. On the way tho I found quite a few books I'd love to read, I guess I need to take a day and immerse self in the library (what a joy) to see what I can find on some of these things.
I am so interested in your takes on Odysseus! I think yours are more interesting than a lot I have read.
--Jude thinks he's a show off (that was so well written)
--Dana thinks he's stupid.
--Deb is enjoying all these differing opinions, says it keeps us on our toes (glad you missed the tornado!! Welcome back!)
--Joans K and R are talking about O's kleos (as did Jude), his driving force. JoanK ta;ls about modern day sailing superstitions and Joan R remarks: I think Odysseus taunted the Cyclops as he sailed away - even making sure that the Cyclops got his name right - because he was building up his "kleos", his "fame" that would live on after him.
I think so too because of the WAY he did it. Did anybody notice the information he gave shouting across the water to the Cyclops?
And how do we see the Cyclops? Do we see him as a monster or something else?
Who actually seems to show more kindness in Book 9?
--Mippy says he's a hero, this is what they do in ancient epics. Roshana Rose agrees.
--Babi mentions in going to see the Cyclops they take wine as hospitality. Apparently there's a huge thing about this wine, and the so called "missing book of the Cicones" in the Odyssey. The wine may not be as innocent as we think.
---and Sally's got some super questions and quite difficult, to go with the one Babi had on why is ZEUS so angry?
---ginny thinks he's smart and here we finally get to see some of it demonstrated. It's about time.
Sally asked:
What was the purpose of Odysseus attacking the Cicones -- destroying their town, killing their men and taking their women and treasure? Had the Cicones killed many of his men prior to this attack?
As i said I was unwilling to take Wikipedia's word for it so I spent half the day and found out some of it but not all. Apparently the Cicones were Thracians, Vergil wrote in his Georgics in Book 4 that The Cicones were a people of Thrace living near the mountain Ismarus and the outlet of the river Hebrus.
Thrace sided with Troy and against the Greeks in the Trojan War, so they were the enemy. This is not explained so the reader is somewhat shocked and somewhat disillusioned to find our hero despoiling etc. Our concept of "hero" and the ancient concept are possibly not the same.
But even in this situation O is thinking: the wily leader explains that he gave the order to pull out, but his men drank too much wine and would not. So here it's the men's fault, O is having to save them by his judgment, and reinforcements come and they lose 6 men per ship. But they get out, those left. Motto: listen to the leader.
This is a theme we'll see repeated. We need to see if it's justified, remember, this is O talking, not the omniscient narrator.
I am somewhat confused also, Sally, over the numbers here, but he's just lost 6 per ship. Does anybody recall how many ships there are?
Then there's Maron. Maron appears in Book 9 but not in the Cicones section, he's another flashback and starts somewhere around line 189 in Book 9. He's the priest of Apollo there among the Cicones and he had given O, when O spared him and his wife and child out of respect for the god, seven bars of gold, a solid silver bowl, and twelve jars of wine.
Nobody knew about this wine, just Maron, the wife and a single housekeeper but it was apparently potent stuff. They had to dilute it with 20 parts water to one part wine. That's very high for the ancients, the normal was 3/1. Some of these ancient wines would put the hair on anybody's head, there was one the Romans had which could be caught on fire and this was before distillation, probably close to 90 proof, I have no idea what this thing was but it was powerful.
And THIS was the jug of wine O took to the Cyclops. Now was he thinking before hand and felt he might need it? Or was it as Babi said a nice hospitality gift?
It's interesting to me how the "hospitality" laws flew right out the window from the get go at the Cyclop's place. He's out, they help themselves? (!?) He returns, he follows no hospitality rules or god rules, he himself is a Cyclops, in Hesiod they are the sons of Uranus (Heaven) and Gaia (Earth), who made the thunderbolts of Zeus and aided him in his war against the Titans. Hesiod's Cyclopes don't seem to bear a lot of resemblance to those of Homer, but it's clear that these people were semi gods themselves. There's also a drama called Cyclops by Euripides, in which the same tale of blinding etc, is told but Silenus is present, and he's really a very old figure. This is a satyric drama and was humorously written.
So whoever the Cyclops is, he's not normal and as he says fears no god. Nor man apparently he eats two of them. And rolls the big stone.
Why do I think O is smart?
--he lies about the location of his ship, saying Poseidon smashed it into pieces, thus saving the men on it.
---he realizes he can't kill him and live, they can't roll the rock
---he decides to blind his one eye so they can sneak out under the sheep as they leave
---he tells the Cyclops his name is No man, that's totally brilliant, so when the C is asked who is hurting you he can say nobody is.
----he rides out under the ram
----he gives the Cyclops the wine to knock him out.
Now one might say he's lying, he's sneaky, he's hiding, he's......
He's never been Mr. Clean, I don't think, has he? His boasting over his besting Ajax which we just read in one of the Latin classes shows him to be a different sort than our Clark Kent.
It makes me wonder if we think perhaps that the ends don't ever justify the means. Is a lie however innocuous, ever warranted? Like now when he hopes to save what's left of the men with him?
We seek to hold our political figures to a high standard only to be disappointed time after time with their flaws. Are the Greeks 2000 years ago more or less advanced when their heroes (heck their gods, too) have flaws?
Who does not, really?
