Classics Book Club, The

[roshanarose]

Welcome to

The Classics Book Club,  a forum for reading in translation  those timeless classics written by ancient authors you always meant to get around to but never have. We've done the Iliad, and we did  the Odyssey, but it was in 1996, so it's back up for grabs and  what of the Aeneid?  Aeschylus? Euripides?  Plutarch? Plato?

Cleopatra is all the rage currently, with two new books and a claim her palace in Alexandria has just been found, she's hot. Why? Do what Shakespeare did and read the original sources, a world of incredible fascination and insights awaits.

The floor is now open for nominations!  We'll vote January 15 for one week and we'll begin discussing part of the book (which you'll determine first) February 15.

 Bring all your background materials, we'll desperately need them,  and join us on an unforgettable enriching adventure! Dust off those old moldy books you always intended to read and join our merry band of adventurers in our new venture: The Classics Book Club!

Everyone is welcome!  

  

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  

Nominate through January 14, we'll vote on the 15th-22.
                   

Title	Author
The Odyssey	Homer (c.800 B.C.)
The Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans	Plutarch (c.46 A.D.- c. 120 A.D.)
The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius	Marcus Aurelius (121 -180 A.D.)
Antigone	Sophocles (c.496-406/5 B.C.)
The Aeneid	Virgil (70-19 B.C.)
Metamorphoses (The Golden Ass)	Apuleius (c. 155 A.D.)
Poetics	Aristotle (384-322 B.C.)
____________________	____________________
____________________	____________________
____________________	____________________

ALF, Ginny et al

Although I know a bit about Odysseus through the stories of Circe, Cyclops, Calypso and Nausicaa, and his adventures through reading Greek Mythology, I have never actually read "The Odyssey" in its entirety.  I look forward so much to doing so.  

We have based so much of our lives it seems on classical thought.  The Milesian philosophers are particular favourites of mine.  They started with the basics of freedom of thought; they worked with what they could see and feel in the universe. .  My favourite "modern" philosopher is Bertrand Russell, although I haven't made my way through all Western Philosophy (amen to that)in order to compare him to others.  

I often find that academics and quasi-academics have immersed themselves in philosophy to the extent that they have no "people skills" and are quite loopy.  For example, one sweet old professor, used to be found wandering along the main street carrying his cup and saucer of tea; and in the philosophy department at my University all the academic staff were "born agains".  Not knocking their beliefs, but their take on the Greeks was very patronising; it was quite weird.  They despised Bertrand Russell, as he had proclaimed himself an atheist. Let's just say that those academics did not have the necessary "open mindedness" that is required to teach any subject.

So - let's embark on our own voyage  "η οδύσσεια" MG; "η οδυσσεία" ΑG.  Can you spot the difference between the Modern Greek (MG) and the Ancient Greek (AG)?

[kidsal]

I would like to read The Aeneid mainly because I have two translations which have been on my shelf for years.  Have read both the Odyssey and the Iliad on my own so reading them again would greatly increase my knowlege of them.  The Meditations are a zillion sayings about how to live your life.  Think they would be better if perhaps a couple could be posted each week to think about.  "How many with whom I came into the world are already gone out of it."  "People exist for one another. Teach them then or bear with them."

[Mippy]

Happy New Year to Everyone!!

I'm very enthusiastic about reading sections of Plutarch!   What a good idea.

I also will not vote for the Odessey because I've already read it more than once.   Something new to me would be better!

Hi, amica mea, Sally (Kidsal) ~  The only reason I'd vote not to read the Aeneid is that I had hoped we would read some of it in our Latin class, unless it's too difficult?  

I would think the Iliad will not be listed in the nominations because several years ago in SeniorNet it was discussed, with our Ginny as DL!

[ginny]

Oh good nomination, Sally, how can we not have the Aeneid on our roster of nominated first books and great discussing?  

I love the discussion of the various books already, thank you, Mippy and Sally. Mippy, yes of course your class could read the Aeneid now. Anybody who can read Ovid can read Vergil.

For some reason the  Aeneid  scares me to death to even contemplate it as a translation  book club choice:  it's long, political, and...but....but..... interesting, in its way. I would say read the reviews on Amazon or B&N as to how the Aeneid compares to the Odyssey and the Iliad, both of which you'd want to possibly be familiar with before reading it, since it so constantly refers to them. Yet  Aeneas is an interesting character, and of course you've got Dido there,  and of course with him, the Iliad and the Odyssey,  you also  do get bits of the Trojan War; maybe this will be a time to stretch all our horizons a little, mine included.

Yes we did do the Iliad, not so long ago, and we did it with Dr. Lombardo,  and Dr. Stone, as time permitted, reading Dr. Lombardo's translation;   that is, he agreed to answer questions. I had just taken a class in it using his translation with Dr. Stone,  and was in awe of Lombardo  and what he did. And still am. His Aeneid has come out since then; his publisher actually notified us of it;  and it was immediately eclipsed by the Fagles which came out about the same time. It  would be interesting to compare them.  If anybody has the Fagles, that is, if we decide to read the Aeneid in our vote. In fact he has very few reviews of it on Amazon.


Here are three: All three are Amazon reviews or descriptions and pertain to the Lombardo Aeneid.

No other translator comes close to Lombardo at capturing the pace and power of the poem. . . . --Joseph Farrell, Professor of Classical Studies and Associate Dean for Arts and Letters, University of Pennsylvania

.... With characteristic virtuosity, he delivers a rendering of the Aeneid as compelling as his groundbreaking translations of the Iliad and the Odyssey, yet one that—like the Aeneid itself—conveys a unique epic sensibility and a haunting artistry all its own.

W. R. Johnson Introduction makes an ideal companion to the translation, offering brilliant insight into the legend of Aeneas; the contrasting roles of the gods, fate, and fortune in Homeric versus Virgilian epic; the character of Aeneas as both wanderer and warrior; Aeneas' relationship to both his enemy Turnus and his lover Dido; the theme of doomed youths in the epic; and Virgils relationship to the brutal history of Rome that he memorializes in his poem.

A map, a Glossary of Names, a Translator’s Preface, and Suggestions for Further Reading are also included.

I bow to no one in my love of Robert Fitzgerlad's translation of the Aeneid--the standard for the last 25 years. Stanley Lombardo's relavatory [sic] translations, however, nudges the older one aside. Lombardo has a history of actually performing the great poems of antiquity, not at fashionable coffeehouses but on sidewalks, plazas, parks, and other public areas to the accompaniment of drums or music. And let me tell you, these performances capture his audiences--including jaded college students who leave their hacky-sacks and stand mesmerized while the readings go on. This kind of percussive, driven performances carries over into the book form, and similarly to his translations of the Iliad and Odyssey, you feel like you're reading a WWII triller.  [sic] That is not to say his translation is ugly or course, [sic] particularly in this most elegant of poems. No, he matches being relentless with being refined to create a story that actually matters--it is a gripping tale that covers the very social, political and moral issues we struggle with today. But the language is so immediate that you can't put it down.

The Aeneid's fortunes have waxed and waned over the centuries, and for a while it was in danger of being relegated to a second-year Latin grammar text. This translation transforms the work and win over a whole new generation of listeners.

Not sure how  that reviewer,  who says he is an historian and an archaeologist,  but who seems to have some issues with spelling, feels that Vergil is second year Latin.  Caesar is Latin II, Cicero is Latin III, Vergil is IV. Perhaps he's going on an accelerated Latin course at university; yet he does say "second year Latin grammar text." Ah well.

Somebody else found the translation "And Lombardo's translation, while sometimes more creative than faithful, is very readable."

Oh my, that "faithful," is really a slap. I would doubt sincerely that Lombardo was not faithful, in more than one way, to the Vergil...oooo.  Here we may have another academic (anonymous) or a student with a couple of years of Latin under his belt taking on the zen master. This MAY be a case of academic pique, or simply not knowing enough, the sophomore definition.  

______________________________________


RoshannaRose, I'll bite, I only see one difference, a dot over the u in the modern Greek, how does that change the pronunciation?

 η οδυσσεία

Now what IS this word? Is it Odyssey?

Is  this   η οδυσσεία an example of a "loan word" in Greek? (Same in the ancient Greek as in the modern, like audio  is in Latin and English?) The letters look, with the doubling, like Odyssey? What's the  η? Is that an article?

What a great slate already up, and hopefully more to come. Good point on the Meditations, Sally, this is the very type of conversation we hoped we'd do.

When we read the Iliad,  we chose one version to read as a group, (Lombardo's) and the other versions  to compare, this time I wonder IF we ought to not choose one version for all,  and then compare,  but each one bring his own? Some of these translations are quite famous in their own right. I mean Book I (of whatever) is Book I, right? We'll need to decide this, and how far to go February 15.  So we have lots of decisions to make.

Welcome, All! The floor is now open thru the 14th for your nominations!  Is there something you've always heard about but never read written by an ancient you have been curious about?

You've come to the right place!  Nominate it here!  Everyone is welcome!  

[Babi]

 Ginny, I have both those on my shelf, which is a big plus in their favor. I like
Plutarch because he gives me a glimpse of several different people and their background.
I like Marcus Aurelius because a lot of what he says resonates with me. We have some
opinions/attitudes in common. (It occurs to me that most of those I learned from my
Dad, who as far as I know never read Marcus Aurelius.) My copy is not, alas, annotated.

 

[Frybabe]

Apuleius - Metamorphoses (or The Golden Ass)

I read an excerpt of this a year or so ago and thought it funny. According to the Wiki entry, it is the only Latin novel to survive in its entirety.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Ass


I would have suggested Aristotle's Poetics, but it is a short work. Still, it would be nice to read his take on poetry and plays. I know very little about the development, construction and "rules" governing Greek plays and poetry.

[ginny]

Two excellent nominations, Frybabe!  Thank you! What a slate we're getting up here!

Here are reviews on both, from Amazon.com:

On the Golden Ass:

Apuleius's Golden Ass is a unique, entertaining, and thoroughly readable Latin novel--the only work of fiction in Latin to have survived from antiquity. It tells the story of the hero Lucius, whose curiosity and fascination for sex and magic results in his transformation into an ass. After suffering a series of trials and humiliations, he is ultimately returned to human shape by the kindness of the goddess Isis. Simultaneously a blend of romantic adventure, fable, and religious testament, The Golden Ass is one of the truly seminal works of European literature, of intrinsic interest as a novel in its own right, and one of the earliest examples of the picaresque. This new translation is at once faithful to the meaning of the Latin, while reproducing all the exuberance of the original.

THE GOLDEN ASS by Apulius is not a household title in the list of classics, but it was much better known and more often enjoyed by many of our reading predecessors. In fact, Apulius's Latin "novel" -- a 2nd-century version of the picaresque -- influenced such well-known classical writers as Petrarch, Boccaccio, Cervantes, Spenser, Marlowe, and, of course, that master "borrower" who reinvented so many themes and made them his own, Shakespeare.

THE GOLDEN ASS tells the story of a young rake named Lucius who proves a little too curious about the magic arts and gets turned into an ass for his troubles. After the conversion, Lucius goes through a parade of owners who mistreat him and witnesses all manner of misadventures, sometimes in an active and sometimes in a passive role. The well-known technique of a "story within a story" is also utilized, as Apulius treats us to the story of Cupid and Psyche. It serves as an echo to the main plot, as Psyche similarly pays a price for excessive curiosity. Entertaining and at times ribald, THE GOLDEN ASS can be enjoyed both for its story and for its importance in influencing many classic works to follow, such as THE DECAMERON, DON QUIXOTE, and A MIDSUMMER NIGHT'S DREAM.

And on Poetics:

The original, Aristotle's short study of storytelling, written in the fourth century B.C., is the world's first critical book about the laws of literature. Sure, it's 2400 years old, but Aristotle's discussions--Unity of Plot, Reversal of the Situation, Character--though written in the context of ancient Greek Tragedy, Comedy and Epic Poetry, still apply to our modern literary forms. The book is quite short, and Aristotle illuminates his points with clear examples, making the Poetics perfectly readable, the better to impress people at parties when you say, "Of course, as Aristotle says..."

The "Poetics" contains Aristotle's observations on what elements and characteristics comprised the best tragedies based on the ones he'd presumably seen or read. He divides "poetry," which could be defined as imitations of human experience, into tragedy, comedy, and epic, and explains the differences between these forms, although comedy is not covered in detail and tragedy gets the most treatment. For one thing, tragedy, he states, seeks to imitate the matters of superior people, while comedy seeks to imitate the matters of inferior people.

To Aristotle, the most important constituent of tragedy is plot, and successful plots require that the sequence of events be necessary (required to happen to advance the story logically and rationally) and probable (likely to happen given the circumstances). Any plot that does not feature such a necessary and probable sequence of events is deemed faulty. Reversals and recognitions are plot devices by which tragedy sways emotions, particularly those that induce "pity and fear," as is astonishment, which is the effect produced when the unexpected happens. He discusses the best kinds of tragic plots, the kinds of characters that are required, and how their fortunes should change over the course of the plot for optimum tragic effect.

What a great beginning for us, how will we ever decide? We'll vote January 15-22, but what have we left out?

Everyone is welcome, pull up a chair and let's nominate and discuss!

[Gumtree]

My goodness! what a wealth of nominations already.

I know I'll be happy to vote for any of those already up so I'm not going to suggest any further ones. In any case I was tossing up between Odyssey, Aeneid, Plutarch and Antigone - not necessarily in that order. I've read them before in whole or in part (Plutarch & Aeneid) but only on my own and without the benefit of fellow travellers.

Tonight I rather favour Antigone simply because it is such a superb play and a pinnacle of the tragic form. I fell in love with the play many many years ago and have several translations of it but it's a long time since I've read it so I would really be coming to it with a fresh eye. Apart from being extremely moving, it is a complex play and examines questions pertinent today. Other touching on theOedipus legend etc if we read it I think we'd also be able to explore a little of Aristotle's views on the tragic form in his Poetics as we go along - I'm guessing they're on Gutenberg - which might even, in part at least, kill  two birds with one stone. - and Nietschke might get into the act as well with his Birth of Tragedy and there's Lukas Death of Tragedy And then there's all the treatments the play itself has had - adaptations and reworkings -Jean Anouihl used it to attack Petain's Vichy govt. and in more recent times Seamus Heaney did a creative translation. And there's Opera too and ... and... So although it is a play and therefore quite short as a piece of literature it's a very rich seam for us to mine.

The Golden Ass would also be interesting especially for those interested in the beginnings of the novel ... again years since I read it but I still have the old Penguin edition with is now so foxed that the print is almost unreadable to  my old eyes.

I'm not keen on Marcus Aurelius - as someone (sorry didn't take note) a thought for the day from him would be great but  I tend to weary of a too rich diet of worthwhile precepts.

What to choose?

[roshanarose]

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RoshannaRose, I'll bite, I only see one difference, a dot over the u in the modern Greek, how does that change the pronunciation?

 η οδυσσεία

Now what IS this word? Is it Odyssey?

Is  this   η οδυσσεία an example of a "loan word" in Greek? (Same in the ancient Greek as in the modern, like audio  is in Latin and English?) The letters look, with the doubling, like Odyssey? What's the  η? Is that an article?

Ginny  Well spotted.  I thought that you would get it.  Indeed, the word is Odyssey.  The only difference between the two words is the placement of the accent.  

So, the Ancient Greek would be pronounced (in Roman script) as ee odYsseia; while the MG would be pronounced ee odusseIa.  The η is eta pronounced ee and is the feminine singular definite article.  I am not sure what you mean by "loan word" in this context.  It is not the same as a Latin word becoming an English word, more a case of the word Odyssey continuing from AG to MG with just a change of accent.  There are many, many, nouns; some verbs; adjectives and prepositions that are the same in MG as AG.  Why change them?  

Thanks for your interest.  

[roshanarose]

Ginny - What a silly sausage I am!  I woke with a start at 4am this morning and understood what you meant by "loan word" relating to The Odyssey.  You meant how a Greek word (Or Latin) can be borrowed by English to mean the same thing.  I mistook you meaning from AG to MG.  Sorry about that.  

I am going to have to look closely at "The Aeneid", as I suspect it might get the nod.

[ginny]

What?  Ho, no, you're not the sausage, hahahaaaaaaaaaaaa Lemme see now, Latin- English= Greek-Greek...hmmm. Who is the sausage? And yet...I think the conception I had here may not be quite... I really need to find out more.... but I do know one thing...  if there's a contest for Sausage Queen, I claim it! (I'm afraid to ask what a sausage is, but I am sure I'm it).  hhahaha  (Don't be waking up at 4 am, we'll have to start a club, what IS it about 4 am?)

Gum, what a stunning post. I am almost but not quite ashamed to post in the same discussion, but I love the way you expressed that. I  just came from a PBS interview with Robert Fagles and it's sort of making me swing back toward  the Odyssey: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/entertainment/jan-june97/odyssey_3-3.html

 Of the Odyssey he says:

I think in the case of the Odyssey it's a poem that can hit us, strike chords with us at virtually every age, the kind of wild and wooly yarn from childhood. It's a tale of growing up for adolescents. It's a tale of struggle, an epic poem of struggle and success for our middle years, if we're lucky, if the gods are good. And for our later years, it's always a song of eternal return. It's everything to all people. It's something like the autobiography of the race and most everyone's favorite poem.

And a list of what it has influenced would truly take an entire page, right up to the present Honda vehicles and the Coen brothers. When you go from Dante to the Coen brothers you know you have influenced the world.  He also says in this interview that you should read it AFTER the Iliad, it's a natural progression.

The interview goes on to say why he decided to do another translation, it's really good and speaks to every translator every time.

BUT... what of Plutarch? I love Plutarch, I love the way he writes. He's like a You Are There in the most incredible moments. Shakepeare, Bacon, Montaigne, Emerson, Milton, Browning, and more... all were influenced heavily by Plutarch as well as  artists, other writers and...well here's what the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature says his works,

perhaps more than the work of any other ancient writer, transmitted to Europe knowledge of the moral and historical traditions of the classical world, and influenced immeasurably its ways of thought.

The thing about Plutarch is that nobody reads him and there he sits with these fabulous unforgettable stories,  they aren't long, and in  his biographies comparing famous men, you can always find something of yourself in them, not always something noble, but you never forget how they are portrayed. Pompey on that nasty  little rowboat, with the sorry reception waiting on the shore,  trying to make small talk with a soldier he recognized,  Cicero fleeing for his life and the crows around his bed, Brutus arguing with Cassius in his tent,  Crassus in his golden armor. Antony and Cleopatra.  Those are just the Romans and one Egyptian, he's got Greeks and he's got lots of scenes nobody else has.

I love Plutarch and would love to explore the themes in his biographies  of men, because I think each one has something every one of us can relate to in 2011. He was a philosopher, also. The OCCL also  says that "Plutarch is one of the most attractive and readable of ancient prose authors, writing with charm, geniality, and tact."

But (there's always a but) he's disjointed, he's got lots of small stories, so a person wanting to read a complete work would not, if they read him. Any time you quote him tho, he blows people away. So he belongs up there, it's just a shame he's not more widely read.

But as  good as our slate is, and it IS good,   we've got room for lots  more, what's or who's missing? Do you want to do Ovid? Socrates? Cicero? Aristophanes? Euripides?

 Everyone is welcome, and so are your ideas and opinions.  Come on in  and draw up a chair,  and make yourselves at home!

[kidsal]

I just found on my bookshelf two books - Euripides I and Euripides II, The Complete Greek Tragedies.  Think I have had them since the 50s.  Edited by Richmond Lattimore.  Alcestis, The Medea, The Heracleidae, Hippolytus, The Cyclops and Heracles, Iphigenia in Tauris, and Helen.  Don't know if they are still in print.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/greektheater/a/051210GreekPlays.htm
Site with downloads of Greek plays.

[Gumtree]

H'mm - Yes, which Greek play to actually nominate is quite a puzzle - We haven't mentioned Aeschylus yet - I have his Agamemnon translated by Richard Lattimore which is part of the Oresteia trilogy - the others are The Libation Bearers and The Eumenides He is also credited with having written Prometheus Bound but the authorship is somewhat disputed-

And what about the other plays in Sophocles' Theban trilogy - Oedipus The King, and Oedipus at Colunnus...

Any of these including those by Euripides would give us quite a workout.

Maybe we need a board just for the Greek plays    I'm joking Ginny, I'm joking!

[Babi]

 I was probably too young and naive when I first read "The Golden Ass", but what the reviewer calls 'ribald' struck me as shocking. If I read it today, after all Hollywood has seen fit to film, it would likely seem mild.

"tragedy, he states, seeks to imitate the matters of superior people, while comedy seeks to imitate the matters of inferior people."

This comment from the review of Aristotle's Poetics
brought back to me a scene from a Dickens novel (don't recall which one)
that truly angered me at the time.  A lady is mourning the loss of her son.
 The leading character mentions to her (as best I recall) that a fisherman lost his daughter in the attempt to save him. She waves this away with
the comment that, of course, those classes of people don't feel things the
way genteel people do.  Grrr!!

[Gumtree]

Hi Babi - yes, the Greeks went along with the idea that only the upper echelon or superior beings could know tragedy - a case of 'the bigger they are the harder they fall'

It is an idea that has long been perpetrated by writers and their audiences alike though from time to time some of the great playwrights have written to the contrary by placing the ordinary man in a situation where the end is inevitable - Anouilh did so in the scenario of WWII Resistance but I'm not sure he really believed it because he drew so heavily on Sophocles. Of course Arthur Miller's Willie Loman and John Proctor are prime examples of the tragic. Arthur Miller's essays on the subject make worthwhile reading for anyone interested in tragedy as a genre.

[kidsal]

Do you think Richmond and Richard Lattimore are the same person.  Seems I did have a translation of plays by Richard Lattimore.  Richmond at the time of publication of the above mentioned books was teaching at Bryn Mawr. 

[Gumtree]

I believe he is one and the same man. Published under both Richard and Richmond - don't know why.

[PatH]

It seems to me we have another decision to make beside which work to read: short versus long.  If we read something as long as the Odyssey or Aeneid, it will take several months, and call for persistence and stamina, though reaping great rewards.  If we read something shorter, we can cover it in depth in a month or so, then go on to something else, hence get more variety.  I don't know which is better, but they're different experiences, and we should think about which we prefer when we vote.

[Babi]

 GUM, have you told us about your background, while I wasn't listening?  You sound so scholarly and knowledgeable about literature, both ancient and modern. I am strictly a dilettante, reading for my own pleasure and with no solid studies in the classics. My only 'philosophy' class, if you can call it that, was a course in Comparative Religions.

 I got that book of Marcus Aurelius' off the shelf and looked at it last night. I had totally forgotten it was more than just his meditations.  It is "Marcus Aurelius and His Times: the Transition From Paganism to Christianity". In addition to the Meditations, it has chapters from Walter Pater showing Marcus performing his duties on return from war in
the east; another of him at home with his family; and one of his coming across a 2nd century Christian service. I had to stop and read that one last night. Quite moving.
  In additin to Aurelius it includes two writings from Lucian and two from Justin Martyr.  Riches!!

[hats]

Hi,

This looks so exciting. I have no knowledge to put on the table. I do have a heart desire to learn.

[hats]

What about NEFERTITI? There is a book titled NEFERTITI by MICHELLE MORAN. I've wanted to read it for a long time.

[ginny]

HATS!!! Welcome, welcome~! That's all you need! So good to see you again!  We were posting together on the Nefertiti book. It sounds wonderful, I have not heard of it. This time we are only reading works by the ancient authors themselves (in translation), but I think I'll look up the Nefertiti because I also have heard of it, and I got a gift certificate for B&N for Christmas!

What wonderful conversations here and ideas! I spent all yesterday thinking about Sally's Agamemnon. I can't get over how surprised he was and aggrieved at his homecoming...one wonders what he expected. Then I looked him up to see if any plays were extant and found one by an English author and it's quite short and very readable. We might do worse in our readings to include something modern or Shakespeare, anyway, depending on the subject, a different take, as it were, when we read the original.

Iphigenia. Such great ideas here.

PatH another real consideration and decision to make.  Some of our nominations  will take us a long time, months perhaps, and some might take an afternoon. What do you all think? Should we get our feet wet with a short one (the background and allusions alone might make any of them long) so we can have that under our belt (can I mix any more metaphors here? hahaha) or should we go for broke and bet a big one totally complete?.

Which of the huge list of plays do we want to add to the heading now? We could do Euripides's Iphigenia and Aeschylus's  Agamemnon as Gum mentions  (IF still in print, I'm sure they are),  and compare them. Sometimes they take completely different paths, too, on the same subjects.

Babi, very impressive volume, I envy you!

 

[JoanR]

Hi, Hats!  Good to see you here.  Don't worry about feeling your way around some unfamiliar stuff - many of us will be doing just that; after all, that is what the discussion is for!!  I know that I'll be reading material that I've had on my top shelves for years and years and been looking for company to read it with.

I took a seminar course in Classical criticism more than half a century ago - still have the basic texts, Aristotle's " Poetics" and his " Rhetoric" but have hardly touched them again in all these years.  The Greek plays are up there on that shelf, so are Vergil's and Homer's epics both in Fagles' translations.  Seneca and Epictetus are on a more reachable shelf and I do read them in bts and pieces now and then.

"The Golden Ass" has been mentioned - I saw this  in the Guardian today:

In this Latin novel, Lucius rubs himself with a stolen ointment which he believes will turn him into an owl. Instead, due to a mix-up with the magic ointments, he finds himself becoming a donkey. In his subsequent life as a beast of burden he is subjected to various abuses and indignities including beatings, threats of castration and bestiality, before the goddess Isis intervenes and brings about his transformation back into a man. Despite all this, the tone of the book, in Robert Graves' translation at least, is surprisingly light-hearted.

Sounds a bit slap-sticky, doesn't it!  I think I'd prefer The Aeneid or the Odyssey!!

[JoanK]

HI HATS. Great to see you hear!

I remember being blown away by Agamnon years ago. It's got the only greek quote I can remember: "Man is born to trouble as the sparks fly upward." And not liking Aesculus (Oh, stop whining already!). But I could have the opposite reaction today.

[Gumtree]

HATS - great to see you again. This is going to be a great read no matter what we choose. Can't wait!

JoanK That quote from Agamemnon just about encapsulates all of Greek tragedy - maybe you'd like Aeschylus better if you read a different translations - it can make the world of difference.

Babi Thanks for your kind words - methinks signs of a misspent youth are showing.  - I just like to read - I tried to read it all until I realised it was an impossibility - by then I was in pretty deep in some areas.

[Frybabe]

I tried to read it all until I realized it was an impossibility

Sounds like me when I was younger. I read every word of every magazine I got (even sports) because I was afraid (?) I would miss something. I don't much read magazines anymore. There only a few books I never finished, one recently; it got so tedious.

[Babi]

  That 'man is born to trouble..etc..." can be found in the Book of Job in the Bible. Is it actually also in Agamemnon?  I've always been of the opinion that Job was actually written after the Babylonian captivity, for
several reasons. I would be most interested to confirm that the author
must have been familiar with 'Agamemnon'.

[Gumtree]

Babi - man born to trouble - can't really help you there. The concept is certainly present in many Greek writings especially the tragedies and it's there in Homer as well. I'm sure the Odyssey refers to Agamemnon in those general terms - so the idea has been around for quite some time.  Who knows whether the words are the same or are the creative work of the translator who may also be informed by his reading of the Bible - one would need to read the original Greek to satisfy oneself.

Sorry I can't turn up a quotation for you - it's quite a while since I read the Greeks and my old notes are in a very sorry state - but thinking about it is leading me right back to considering Odyssey as our first venture. I know it will take quite a long time to work through it but the rewards will be great. I read a couple of pages of it last night and no matter where I opened it and started to read I was caught up in the story in just a few lines. I think it's going to get my vote -

[Babi]

My only problem with the Odyssey, GUM, is that it is one of the
few nominated that I've already read...tho' it was a long while ago.
I'd like to try something new (to me, that is).
  As best I can gather from the dates, the formal end of the Babylonian
exile pre-dates Agamemnon by nearly a hundred years. So whenever
Job was actually written, it must have pre-dated the Greek play.
  I love putting these little pieces together.  I think I missed my career
calling. 

[JoanK]

Senior moment: I said it was Aesculus I didn't like : wrong, he's the one I DID like. It was Euripides  that drove me crazy..

I'm accumulating some of the choices on my new IPOD (they're free or $1.99) so I can sample them and vote intelligently. Now we'll see if I do it.

[JoanK]

Second senior moment: that quote IS  from the bible (Job), the King James Version). I couldn't find the whole hebrew quote (I read a little Hebrew) but it seems to be literally man is born to labot as the sons of fire fly  רשׁף בנ(י benēy reshep).

So I wronged Aesculus twice, gave him too much and too little credit. Of course, it could have been a saying that was used in both places ( just as Virgil talks about men beating theit ploughshares into swords, and the Bible the opposite).

[Babi]

  The whole theme of man being born to trouble in this life is so widespread,  I wouldn't be surprised to find versions of it most everywhere.  
  There is an old jingle on the subject hovering on the edges
of my mind but I can't quite recall.  I think it ended "..nothing on earth
but common sense can ever withstand these woes." It was definitely a
tongue-in-cheek bit of doggerel. Ring any bells with anyone else?

[JudeS]

II fell into this by chance and of course all your interesting opinions entrapped me.  In High School I was in an advanced honors class in which we read the complete Odyssey and Illiad. I loved them and often thought of them but aside from "The Golden Ass" which i read on my own have never continued in this vein. Now that you folks have offered me the opportunity to learn more I can't refuse.  I am hooked.

Since poetry has always been one of my interests  I would probably like to read what the Greeks have to say on that subject.

I wonder if Aesops tales would be considered as an ancient classic ? He is the one writer whose work has come through the ages and is known by many children and adult even today ..

[ginny]

Jude! Welcome, welcome! So glad to see you here!!

I agree, the conversation here is electric!

I'd say Aesop definitely qualifies as an ancient and what an influence he had! Have you seen Aesopica by Laura Gibbs? The sheer number of translations of Aesop through the years are staggering. She does a super job, has a new book out on it, the illustrations are what just amaze me, here are a couple: 

The Fox and the Grapes
Baby's Own Aesop (1887) Walter Crane

The Wolf and the Lamb.
Phryx Aesopus Habitu Poetico, by Hieronymus Osius, 1574 (artist not identified). Available online at the University of Mannheim.

Aesop for Children (translator not identified), 1919. Illustrations by Milo Winter (1886-1956). Available online at Project Gutenberg

The Wolf and the Lamb. Aesop for Children. 1919. Milo Winter (1886-1956)

And there are tons tons TONS more.

When my children were young we had the sweetest little book of Aesop and we all just loved it. I haven't seen it since, and I'd like to. You could make a career (and Gibbs has) out Aesop.

But there are a lot more of them than are read to children and possibly with good reason. It would be fascinating to look at ONE and see how many iterations it had through history or influence,...er....YES! Welcome!!

I love fables of any kind. Is there a version we could nominate?

[roshanarose]

Ginny - I have to say that those illustrations are quite spectacular.  I love the one with the fox and the volcano as it has a very Japanese feel to it.  Aesop is probably the only Greek writer that practically everyone has heard of, and jusitifably so. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Once I saw it I remembered seeing the name Roger l'Estrange in a long ago addition of Aesop Fables - looks like 'Everyman' has made a copy of that 1930s translation of Aesop Fables

If we are considering fables the first of them all must be Gilgamesh which I never have read - only read about the storyline - this appears to be a new and interesting version that includes the Epic of Gilgamesh along with other research from the author of his travels around the world where traces of the fable can be found.

And here is the copy The Epic of Gilgamesh, Complete Academic Translation: Translated from cuneiform tablets in the British Museum literally into English hexameters (Forgotten Books)

I'm still shooting for Antigone and this Brecht translation looks interesting Antigone - In a Version by Bertolt Brecht The more I read about what I see as a crisis of morals during a time of changing ethics this play could pull out what we value.

[Frybabe]

My childhood copy of Aesop's Fables is long gone. I remember taking my watercolors to the black and white illustrations.

[Gumtree]

I agree, the conversation here is electric
Ginny

Aha! Ginny - hope you didn't get a shock  

I was dreading that someone would mention Aesop - as a child I hated it.  Maybe I was too..oo young but it's one of the few books I've never come to terms with. Obviously I need some education and maybe a reread is called for but I still have that mental block and you would have to drag me kicking and screaming.

The illustrations are great - but I get that odd Aesop kinda shivery almost sinister feeling I had as a child.

[Gumtree]

Babi Here's the 'poem' you were thinking of - it's The Pessimist by Ben King - I keep getting bumped off using a link so will post it here...

1 Nothing to do but work,
2 Nothing to eat but food,
3 Nothing to wear but clothes
4 To keep one from going nude.

5 Nothing to breathe but air
6 Quick as a flash 't is gone;
7 Nowhere to fall but off,
8 Nowhere to stand but on.

9 Nothing to comb but hair,
10 Nowhere to sleep but in bed,
11 Nothing to weep but tears,
12 Nothing to bury but dead.

13 Nothing to sing but songs,
14 Ah, well, alas! alack!
15 Nowhere to go but out,
16 Nowhere to come but back.

17 Nothing to see but sights,
18 Nothing to quench but thirst,
19 Nothing to have but what we've got;
20 Thus thro' life we are cursed.

21 Nothing to strike but a gait,
22 Everything moves that goes
23Nothing at all but common sense
24 Can ever withstand these woes.

[Babi]

THAT'S IT, GUM!  Thank you for digging it out.  That tongue-in-cheek attitude throughout the
poem delighted me.  It still does.  I think it probably influenced my own tendency to take the
optimistic viewpoint.  If I have a problem that comes and goes, I just enjoy it's being gone!