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[Babi]

 
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May 9-----Book  XIII:  Home at Last!   

The Homecoming of Odysseus
Claude Lorrain
1644

Of course this looks nothing like the scene that Homer painted but gives us what impression we'd like to think when we think homecoming, the reality was quite starkly different.

 

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny 

Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
Map of the  Voyages of Odysseus
Map of Voyages in order
Map of Stops Numbered
Our Map Showing Place Names in the Odyssey

Odysseus is put ashore in Ithaca
17th century etching
Theodor van Thulden (1606 - 1669)

   
The Phaiakians put Odysseus ashore in Ithaca, where he is met by Athene:

It was into this bay they rowed their ship. They knew of it beforehand.
The ship, hard-driven, ran up onto the beach for as much as
half her length, such was the force the hands of the oarsmen
gave her. They stepped from the strong-benched ship out onto the dry land,
and first they lifted and carried Odysseus out of the hollow
hull, along with his bed linen and shining coverlet,
and set him down on the sand. He was still bound fast in sleep. Then
they lifted and carried out the possessions, those which the haughty
Phaiakians, urged by great-hearted Athene, had given him, as he
set out for home, and laid them next to the trunk of the olive,
all in a pile and away from the road, lest some wayfarer
might come before Odysseus awoke, and spoil his possessions.

Then they themselves turned back toward home.

Odysseus asleep laid on his own coast
John Flaxman
1805

The great seafaring ship
Was closing in fast when Poseidon slapped it
With the flat of his hand and turned it to stone
Rooted in the seafloor...lines 165-70)

I haven't noticed any significant numbers, KIDSAL.  What did you have in mind?
I do know that numbers often had a significance in the Bible.  Of perhaps, there
use in the Bible gave them a significance to us??

   ‘Homer’ must have liked this line; he used it twice in reference to O.  “...cutting through ranks in war and the cruel sea.”   I does have a wide, bold sweep to it, doesn’t it?  It highlights O's prowess both as a warrior and a shrewd sailor.
  Who was it spoke of being halfway through the book?  The journeying is over, apparently, but Athena warns him of “the gall and wormwood it is your lot to drink in your own hall.”  Still plenty of story left, but it does mean that the famous 'Odyssey' is only the half of it.

[Frybabe]

Kidsal, the mention of "Black Ships" always reminds me of pirates. 

[JudeS]

It seems that the order of the lines in Fagles is different than all of your versions.  The passage you are all referring to appears on lines 328-339 in his version.
" Any man-any god-who met you-would have to be
Some champion lying cheat to get past you
for all -round craft and guile! You terrible man,
foxy,ingenious, never tired of twists and tricks-
so, not even here, on native sol,would you give up
those wily tales that warm the cockles of your heart!
Come, enough of this now, we're both old hands
at the art of intrigue. Here among mortal men
you're far the best at tactics, spinning yarns,
and I am famous among the gods for wisdom,
cunning wiles too.

I like the idea of the man,O., and the woman,A., being put on equal footing as far as brains go. Perhaps Fagles tries to shade in this meaning to have a more modern outlook.

[JoanK]

Poseidon " seems to have anger management issues, big time."

I always thuink of the original story, when the three brothers devided up  the universe. Zeus got to be lord of the world, Poseiden of the sea and whats-hios-name (Senior moment here) the lord of the underworld. I keep thinking that the other two are jealous of Zeus and very touchy about anything that would undermine their authority or imply that they are not as important as Zeus!

Of couse the sea IS  angry, so the greeks had to invent a god that reflected that fact. A nice friendly god wouldn't have done at all.

"Passers-bye?" I agree. can't see a crowd there.

For the first time, I felt sorry for O when he woke up on ANOTHER beach! What NOW!! It's a nice touch. Not sure why he lies to Athena, except that he dopesn't know what the situation is.

[Dana]

I think he lies to Athena because he always lies to strangers being a suspicious guy (or at least is very cautious about how /what he reveals), but also he doesn't know it's Athena he's speaking to, she is disguised as a young man and only reveals herself to him after he's told his Kretan story.  He has been forewarned about the suitors, and he knows what happened to Agamemnon when he came unsuspectingly home, so he would naturally be very cautious not to give himself away.

[bookad]

just backing up a touch wanted to include Lattimore and Rieu's translations of Athene as she transforms back to her female shape when talking to Odysseus-- in chapter 13 --I love that my 'Lattimore' has lines numbered, and my 'Rieu' is just in its paragraphs--I can therefore follow along regardless of translations

Lattimore
Athene

addressed him in winged words saying: "It would be a sharp one, and a stealthy one, who would ever get past you in any contriving; even if it were a god against you.  You wretch, so devious, never weary of tricks, then you would not even in your own country give over your ways of deceiving and your thievish tales. They are near to you in your very nature. But come let us talk no more of this, for you and I both know sharp practice, since you are far the best of all mortal men for counsel and stories, and I among all the divinities am famous for wit and sharpness; ...

Rieu
Athene again talking-

And so my stubborn friend, Odysseus the arch-deceiver, with his cravings for intrigue, does not purpose even in his own country to drop his sharp practice and the lying tales that he loves from the bottom of his heart. But no more of this: we are both adept in chicane. But in the world of men you have no rival as a statesman and orator, while I am pre-eminent among the gods for invention and resource.

above from line 291
one thing I have really gained from all these translations is intrigue for language and its possibilities in translating

Deb

[bookad]

just re-reading my post...Athene seems a bit pompous!!

and why would the ship transporting Odysseus just up and leave him alone sleeping on the beach....leaving him defenseless ...wouldn't you think at the least they might wake him up and say 'you're home' and now on your own ....or something....seems they took more care to protect his gifts than him!!!

Deb

[roshanarose]

kidsal - Good question about "black ships".  I do remember that when Theseus sailed back to Athens he was still sailing his black sails, which would indicate that he had been killed by the Minotaur.  His father who had been waiting to see the ship from his vantage point at Cape Sounion naturally assumed that Theseus had been killed by the Minotaur when he saw the black sails, and then jumped into the sea.  This has to be mythical - How could Theseus sail all the way back from Crete without noticing that the black sails were flying?  I am spoiling a good story I think.

I also remember that Achilles and his Myrmidons went into battle wearing black armour.  Maybe a connection there?

[roshanarose]

Ooops.  Achilles and his Myrmidons DID go into battle wearing black armour in the movie Troy.  But.... in the Iliad evidently Achilles is clad in beautiful silver and gold armour wrought by Hephaestos before taking on the Trojans.  Hephaestos is  blacksmith to the Gods and husband of Aphrodite .... and that's another story . 

[Gumtree]

Here's some trivia which is about all my mind can cope with at present.

Apropos Black Sails  Believe it or not,  black sails are making something of a comeback in today's yachting world. I think they were first used around 2000 in the America's Cup fleet and since have been frequently used  on some of the  Sydney maxi-fleets ( and no doubt elsewhere as well). They're made from black carbon fibre and are said to have better speed than the Mylar and other supposed wonder sails -  better sail shape retention as well as longer durability - a big factor when one considers the cost of outfitting a maxi-yacht in a full suit of sails.   After seeing them on Sydney Harbour I did a large painting of a maxi-yacht with black sails  sailing through the strait and past the cliffs of Sardinia into port. I had Odysseus in mind and wanted a Mediterranean setting so used Sardinia for the drama of the cliffs. The yacht I depicted was up-to-the-minute in every respect and the painting was snapped up by a keen yachtie type - I think O and any symbolism I managed to convey would have been far from his mind.

[ginny]

Black ships and black sails, isn't that interesting! It does conjure up black thoughts, and I agree, Frybabe, I think in the Pirates movies it also indicates something dire, even among pirates.

I was just reading (a very poor) guidebook of Rome last night which was talking about a veritable horde of Roman ships sunk in a harbor  and left there till Mussolini dredged the harbor and put all the spectacular ships on display in a museum. The Nazi's bombed it and they were all lost, but there are two models one can go way out of one's way to see.

Gum, reading your posts "They're made from black carbon fibre and are said to have better speed than the Mylar and other supposed wonder sails -  better sail shape retention as well as longer durability " is like reading the Odyssey! Think of you having done a painting on this, I don't suppose you want to put in a photo of it?

RoshanaRose, this is interesting:  " I do remember that when Theseus sailed back to Athens he was still sailing his black sails, which would indicate that he had been killed by the Minotaur."


I don't know a whole lot about black sails, you'd have to carry some on board I guess or make them before you left. I do know the presence of sails on Cleopatra's ships indicate to some historians they planned the entire time to make a break through at the Battle of Actium. Sails take a lot of room on a ship apparently.

Of course these were magic ships anyway.

Last summer at Arles in Provence they had an exhibition of Julius Caesar and lots of models of Roman ships. Of course these were Roman but they were quite interesting anyway, not much room to move around tho those destroyed  in the case above were said to be mammoth, so apparently they COULD if necessary hold a LOT of people.

Deb, this is a good point: "and why would the ship transporting Odysseus just up and leave him alone sleeping on the beach....leaving him defenseless ...wouldn't you think at the least they might wake him up and say 'you're home' and now on your own ....or something....seems they took more care to protect his gifts than him!!!"

I figured it was because their own ships were magic and they didn't want him to see anything at all about the operation. Why on earth that should be so I have no idea.

He's seen about everything else.

And thank you for the Lattimore and Rieu, these translations do add such richness to the entire experience!

Oh good point,  Dana, so he's being cautious, due to his past experiences, and he tends as  Athena says, to lying anyway as a defense mechanism so that's in character.

Athene is something else tho, she complains he does not recognize her and never did, how could he?

Oh and JoanK, I liked your three bothers thing and the fact that the sea IS angry so they needed an angry god! I've always found it interesting that the Pacific is named  from the word pax for peace. It's definitely not peaceful.

Jude, another good point about  Fagles and possibly shading it for women and men in equality.  In his interview he says it's a love story first. I am not seeing the love yet or are we?  I hadn't caught and do agree with you that they should have woken him up!

OH and good points Sally on the numbers, I have no idea what those odd numbers might mean but I bet they mean something, and the "passers- by."  I would think even on Ithaca there might be somebody passing by, but I wonder how they expected him to find it and how he did? I must reread that.

OK it looks like the Phaecians moved the stuff a bit from him on the beach under the bole (bole?) of an Olive Tree out of the way of beachwalkers but in plain sight of O himself, as the first thing he does is set about gathering it all up. So if he can see it they could.

It may be that he would know to look for it. He sounds like me on a trip:  211: "Where am I going to take all these things?"

So he counts it all:

And he set about counting the hammered tripods,
The cauldrons, the gold, the finely woven clothes.
Nothing was missing.

But he has to put it somewhere as Athene is going to disguise him (again with the disguises, how many IS this?) He clung to the belly of a sheep to get past the Cyclops, it's on and on.

He's going to be a beggar all withered with a

A great deerskin cloak with the furn worn off.
And she gave him a staff and a ratty pouch....

So he's withered and weak looking and in rags and now SHE who has said she would stand by him, he's said with her along he can take on 300 men, has gone to get his son T.

This is very exciting. And now he's to go to the lowest of the low: his swineherd, who is devoted and loyal to him.

But just in reading over your own thoughts today I'm getting a lot of themes:

disguise
loyalty
love
longing for home/ homecoming
deceit
lying
revenge
symbolism


I'm still not sure what he's supposed to DO with all that booty and I just found somewhere around line 375-80 that they put the gifts in an enchanted cave and blocked it with a stone, now nobody can see it.


So far apparently there have BEEN no passers by, right? Down on the shore.

The Temple Study  Guide says two things here:

Here we encounter the first of O's "lying tales".

I am thinking that's not correct.  Wasn't there a previous lying tale? How about when he first landed at Phaecia?

I am beginning to wonder about this Study Guide, who actually might have written it, it's full of typos.

But this one made me sit up?

Consider: Odysseus as his own Trojan horse.

It's not the first time, either, is it? Sheep and Cyclops?  If Sally's idea holds true that there is some significance in the odd numbers, we'll need a 3rd.

Ok and now here:

Athena warns O. about the suitors (does he know this already?,

I was wondering this myself. Didn't his mother tell him? He says in 398  or so:

"Ah, I'd be heading for the same pitiful death
That Agamemnon met in his house
If you hadn't told me all this, Goddess."

But I thought he knew?

What, to YOU, is the most important theme here?

[ginny]

Oh and speaking of Themes, I just saw this chart on the bottom of the  Temple thing, "controlling female" as a theme?

And I completely missed "war,"  tho we've talked about it, here are their ideas of same:

The Thematic Structure of Odysseus' Wanderings (in progress)

   

war
   

memory

   

cannabalism, loss of civilization, kleos
   


storm, mutiny
   

cannabalism, monstrous female
   

controlling female, loss of humanity, divine warning

   

helpful female, divine warning
   
   

memory
   
   

loss of humanity, kleos
   

storm, mutiny
   

   

monstrous female
   

   

controlling female, loss of humanity, divine warning
   

   

helpful female. hyper-civilization

   

war, controlling female

[Frybabe]

I decided to Google "black ships" and did I ever come up with something interesting,though nothing to do with our story. It seems the Japanese called Western ships "black ships". The Japanese America Society and and Black Ships Festival in Newport, RI holds a Black Ships Festival every year to commemorate Commodore Perry's achievement in opening up trade with Japan.

http://www.newportevents.com/Blackships/main.shtml

I don't see much on black sails except for the references to Theseus. There are games and songs and a very few references to pirate ships. But one interesting website came up, http://www.blacksails.org  It was formed just last year in Southern CA by black Americans hoping to promote an interest in sailing among the African-Americans and other minorities.

[PatH]

I didn't get anything about Greek black ships either, but here's an interesting site about Greek ships for those who haven't maxed out on ship lore.  If you click on the photographs link at the bottom, you get some good pictures.

The ships in the Iliad are referred to as black ships too.

Interesting links, Frybabe.

[PatH]

Poseidon doesn't only have anger issues with his brothers, he and Athena are long-time enemies.  The biggest sore point was their contest to be the patron god or goddess of Athens.  As usual, they did it with bribes.  Poseidon produced a salt-water spring, and Athena produced the olive tree.  The city-dwellers rightly chose the olive tree.  When my daughter was young, she used to refer to Greek olives as Athena's olives.

All the translations seem to put Odysseus and Athena on roughly equal footing in their exchange in Ithaca, but this isn't putting a man and a woman on a level, it's putting a man and a goddess on a level.  I bet a mortal woman wouldn't have fared so well.

[PatH]

By the way, if any of you know a grade-schooler who should be introduced to the Greek myths, my children had a beautiful book, still in print, by Ingri d'Aulaire and Edgar Parin d'Aulaire.

http://www.amazon.com/DAulaires-Greek-Myths-Ingri-dAulaire/dp/0440406943/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1305308570&sr=1-3

The illustrations are gorgeous, and the stories well told.  Amazon says ages 9-12.  I think Cathy got it in third grade.

Notice at the bottom another children's book The Black Ships of Troy, about the Iliad.

[JoanK]

PatH: did you forget to post the link to greek ships mentioned in post 1413 above?

I have another theme we could follow:

wisdom

O. is always called "wise" but by that, Homer seems to mean what I would call "clever" -- able to think of clever tricks. IS he wise in any deeper sense?

[PatH]

Darn it, Joan, I did forget the link, and now I can't find it again, but in looking I did find out why they were black: they were painted with pitch, presumably to make them more water-tight.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/troyilium/ig/Trojan-War-of-Barry-Strauss/The-Black-Ships-Sail.htm

Not much in this link except one drawing and the vital fact.

Eureka!  Here's the other link:

http://library.thinkquest.org/06aug/00336/greek_ships.htm

photos in a link at the bottom

[PatH]

Wisdom--good question.  I'll have to think about that.

[Babi]

Of couse the sea IS  angry, so the greeks had to invent a god that reflected that fact. A nice friendly god wouldn't have done at all.

   Good point, JOANK. I'd never looked at it that way before and you are
absolutely right.
 
(Congratulations on the sale of your painting, GUM. It did sound lovely.)

 Oh, don't forget 'doom' in the listing of themes.  Though I think perhaps 'fate' might
be a a more accurate word.  There was often more to a person's fate than doom,
have you noticed?  Some were 'fated' to undertake and carry out great schemes,
and they couldn't avoid those, either.

[JudeS]

This is just another plus for Homer.
Mark Zuckerberg, billionaire founder of Facebook, is often heard quoting from the Illiad and the Odyssey(in Greek).
So the two movies that were up for an Oscar this year, "The King's Speech" and "The Social Network" both have ties to our author.
Amazing how this this tale has influence so many.

[roshanarose]

PatH - Well researched that you found about the pitch.  That would seem to be the logical answer to the "black ships". 

In general there were some very interesting responses as to why the ships were black.  Working together with such excellent tools as search engines, you can find most anything.  A large part of the appeal of this site to me is just that "working together".

[PatH]

  A large part of the appeal of this site to me is just that "working together".

Indeed, Roshanarose, I've learned so much from everyone here.

[Gumtree]

Yes indeed - I think we all learn from one another on this site - it's  the best!

Sorry, but I could have said something about the Greek ships being painted with pitch - just thought everyone knew. I believe the Greeks are likely to have used pine pitch. Pitch was used to caulk the seams of the ships, to paint the timbers, canvas, rope, etc. to keep them free from the damage caused by salt water, thus preserving the ships - at least for a time.

The question of the symbolism we attach to the 'black ships' and black sails' is entirely different and more complex an issue as black often symbolises opposites - rebellion/conformity - power/anonymity - sin/holiness and lots of others as well. The western world associates black with many things - mystery, fear, evil, sadness, remorse, anger, mourning, death as well as sophistication, formality, elegance, wealth, sexuality and power.

The fact that Theseus didn't notice he was sailing under black sails could be attributed to the fact that he usually did sail under black - to save wear and tear on the more fragile unpainted sails.

PatH: Thanks! I wouldn't eat too well if I relied solely on my art but the income allows me to splurge on fine art materials and a few other indulgences as well as keeping the 'rainy day' at bay. I look on exhibition sales as money to spend and commissioned sales as money in the bank.
Commissioned sales are often more lucrative but I do love it when someone looks at one of my efforts and just has to have it. Gives me quite a high!



 

[Gumtree]

Here's a little on the  'pitch' used on ancient ships...

The archaeological recoveries of ancient shipwrecks in the Mediterranean Sea, have revealed samples of pitch that was used in ancient shipbuilding. Not only have scientists been able to determine that the pitch was made from pine resin, in many cases they were able to determine what species of pine were used, as well as the processes and probable temperatures that were used to make the pitch. [TED, 1969]

The construction of Greek ships is described by Hiero, who lived from 306-215 B.C. Pitch (pittan) was brought from the Rhone Valley. Obviously, this refers to a wood product, probably of pine, and not to asphalt [Casson, 1971, p. 194]. The pitch used for Greek ships is described in detail in various ancient sources, which Casson summarizes in a footnote:

Anth. Pal. 11.248.... "And when it [the ship] had been pinned together up to the thwarts, they smeared it with the glistening sap of the pine"... Vergil's phrase uncta carine (Aen. 4.398) must refer to hulls so anointed. The Nemi barges seem to have had a coat of pitch, with perhaps some slight admixture of bitumen, plus some substance containing iron, possibly minimum, as coloring matter (Ucelli 179-80). For pitch and wax, cf. Pliny, NH 16:56: zopissam vocari derassam navibus maritimis picem cum cera "The pitch with wax scraped off seagoing ships is called 'live pitch'";... [Casson, p. 212].

The Greek historian Theophrastus describes two types of pitch, one being black and called pitch and the other referred to as resin, which is a lighter color. [Morrison, J.S., et al., 2000] Plutarch describes the trees used in shipbuilding:

The pitys and kindred trees, peukai and strobiloi, produce the wood most suitable for shipbuilding, and the pitch and resin paint (aloiphe)without which shipwright's work is useless in salt water.' [ibid.]

The Latin word that appears in this quote of Pliny, as well as in the Latin Vulgate's translation of Gen. 6:14 is pix. The source of this word is picea, which means spruce or a similar fir, although some have suggested that it was picea that was derived from pix.. The verb pico means to smear with pitch. Not only does this show that the ancient Romans used tree-derived pitch for caulking ships, but that the Latin translators understood the Hebrew text, since there is a virtually perfect correspondence between pix and pico with the Hebrew source words,

source: av1611.com/.kjbp/PitchofNoah'sArk

[Babi]

 A fascinating quote, GUM.  I am astounded at the material that's available to the searcher now.
I would have never even thought to look for a topic like the "Pitch of Noah's Ark"!!

   Well, Athena has now, literally, turned Odysseus into a 'dirty..and ugly..old man'.  I wonder
how the famed Greek hospitality will hold up for him in that guise?   

[ginny]

Yes it's just fascinating coming in here,  no end of great stuff: pitch, who knew?  And it's useful stuff too, I feel much more informed as a result of this discussion, and in things I knew nothing about.

I love the "working together" aspect here, too. And every voice which chimes in adds something different to our soup, Book Soup. (That's the best I can do here this gray bleary morning). hahaa (How does one spell gray? I thought it had an e but spell check insists on the a?) I use Firefox and it has a spell check and sometimes I wonder what language it's checking, it makes a continual fool of me if I don't carefully reread.

This morning I got up so grateful to be reading The Odyssey, it seems most everything else pales, even tho we do know that the Iliad is "better," or whatever, I wonder what other book could hold up so long to this pieced approach. I love it.

I read Entertainment Magazine last night, full of young actors I know nothing about, but also full of new movies coming out which are pretty fantastic and derivative, each in their own way, of the Odyssey ultimately, they all seem to deal with the SuperHero, who has super powers and fantastic adventures, uh.....and set backs, and romance...uh.....nothing we lack. Also several new books seem to plunge the reader into unexplained and fantastic scenarios (uh...) with flashbacks (uh...) well you get the picture, we're reading the daddy of them all.

I think so far in all I've learned that I'm beginning to be (we're only half through) most impressed with Homer's depth. What seems just slapped down, like  a new Disney Ride,  (the newest one is Star Wars, you've got your hero...your problems...your fantastic adventures....uh....) is not, at all. It seems carefully constructed and I don't want to miss a trick tho I suspect I've missed several. Surely with this astute group we won't miss anything.

O. is always called "wise" but by that, Homer seems to mean what I would call "clever" -- able to think of clever tricks. IS he wise in any deeper sense?

What IS wisdom? What a question!  Is it a combination of experience and the ability to apply solutions? That's what O does and he's quick with it, he doesn't have to take time (as in the  Cyclop's cave) to react. But then again, it could have gone the opposite way, too. j

Here's Webster's Dictionary on the definition of wisdom:

Definition of WISDOM
1
a : accumulated philosophic or scientific learning : knowledge b : ability to discern inner qualities and relationships : insight c : good sense : judgment d : generally accepted belief <challenges what has become accepted wisdom among many historians — Robert Darnton>

2
: a wise attitude, belief, or course of action

3
: the teachings of the ancient wise men

I don't know about O and that b?

[Frybabe]

Greek ships being painted with pitch - just thought everyone knew.

Great catch, Gum. I knew but forgot.

It seems to me a few years back I saw a program where they were trying to recreate some of Archimedes' designs. One of the designs was a parabolic mirror (actually a series of small mirrors set as a parabola) that was supposed to catch the incoming ships on fire. Wikipedia actually has a description of this "heat ray" and several experiments that were designed to see if it worked. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes  The program I saw was not one of the Mythbusters segments, but something done by the History Channel, Discovery Channel, or National Geographic.

[Frybabe]

Ginny, we could probably write our on book with all the stuff we come up with. 

[JoanK]

FRY: I saw that program too. I don't remember, but I thought it was Mythbusters. They're always doing stuff like that. Did you see the recent one where they found you could "blow your own sail" by putting a fan on the boat and having it blow into the sail?

I LOVE this discussion. Where else would we discus what kind of pitch the Greeks used?

If you all aren't sick of ship lore, a REALLY STUPID QUESTION? Why are tiremes called tiremes? I thought they had three sails, but the one in the picture has two.

I guess I'm not wiswe. If I were, I'd know what wisdom is.

[Frybabe]

I believe the names tiremes, etc. come from the number of rows of ores the ship has. Some of the pix I found don't clearly show the rows, but Wikipedia has a diagram down by the header "Rowers" that shows the position and angle of the ores for each level on a tireme.

[roshanarose]

Gumtree - Thanks for the quote about pitch, very interesting.  Reminded me of that unusual !! drink the Greeks enjoy at their festivals, the much maligned retsina which uses pine resin for its flavour and is stored in Pine barrels.  I have tried it.  It is not something that you could drink a lot of.

Gumtree - Good point about the sails.  I did a bit more research into the story of Theseus and his return from Knossos.  Evidently he had made an agreement with his father that he would fly a white sail, rather than the normal black to indicate his slaying of the Minotaur.  For some reason he must have forgotten to change them.  When you stand on Cape Sounion and look in the direction of Crete (south), this story is easy to imagine.

Ancient Greeks and colour link:

www.cooper.edu/classes/art/hta321/99spring/Rebecca.html

The Siren Song - Last night I watched the new adventures of Dr Who, Amy and Rory, our intrepid time travellers.  They landed on a pirate ship and as they were talking/fighting with the crew, a strange but beautiful refrain was heard.  I knew immediately who it was.  Sure enough a beautiful woman materialised.  Anyone who had a black spot on his/her palm was turned to dust after the Siren touched them.  The Siren turned out to be a doctor who had her own up-to-date hospital clinic where all those who had black spots were being treated for the sicknesses you could expect pirates to have.  There was a lot more to the plot than I have written.  Just thought of the story depicting the Siren as a healer was a little different to most.

Ginny - Grey vs Gray - Australian English and perhaps English English spell it as grey.  American English as gray.

[PatH]

Roshanarose:

Retsina: yes, it's a little like drinking pine needles in your wine, but it goes really well with Greek food, and I sometimes order it in Greek restaurants.  You wouldn't want to do this if you were drinking more than one glass, you'd get tired of it.  If the waiter is Greek, he usually seems to appreciate my choice.

Ancient Greeks and colour link:  That's a really interesting link.  My SIL has a degree in cognitive psychology, meaning how you perceive things, and I've had conversations with him before about this sort of issue, but this raises some points I want to check out with him.  I'll report back on what he says if relevant.

Gray/grey: currently, both spellings are accepted here, but my spell checker still sometimes scolds me for grey, which I prefer.  It's not scolding me now, either it's given up on me or someone has taught it better.

[Gumtree]

Oh goodie! - more about boats 

Yes - the trireme takes its name from the three banks of oars.

Here's something from Britannica Concise Encylopaedia: on triremes:

"Oar-powered warship. Light, fast, and maneuverable, it was the principal naval vessel with which Persia, Phoenicia, and the Greek city-states vied for mastery of the Mediterranean from the Battle of Salamis (480 BC) through the end of the Peloponnesian War (404). The Athenian trireme was about 120 ft (37 m) long, and was rowed by 170 oarsmen seated in three tiers along each side; it could reach speeds of more than 7 knots (8 mph, or 13 kph). Square-rigged sails were used when the ship was not engaged in battle. Armed with a bronze-clad ram, it carried spearmen and bowmen to attack enemy crews. By the late 4th century BC, armed deck soldiers had become so important in naval warfare that it was superseded by heavier ships. "  (emphasis is mine)

The three banks of oarsmen were at different levels - this meant that some men could be easily rested so they weren't all exhausted before it was time for the battle. The upper levels of oarsmen had the more difficult job as they had to row with some kind of outrigger.

On interesting aspect is that the Greeks didn't have 'slaves' as oarsmen but men from all walks of life who were oarsmen as part of their military service. Democracy at work.

The trireme is often seen as a Greek invention but is more likely to have been Corinthian. They were the fighting ships of the ancient world and were superseded by the later quadremes and quinqueremes which obviously had 4 and 5 ranks of oarsmen respectively.


Grey/gray -  Aren't they interchangeable? I prefer 'grey' except sometimes.

Roshanarose: that link on color is great- I'll read it more carefully later.

I've never tasted Retsina - can't say I've missed the experience as I'm not much of a drinker.

[bookad]

Roshanarose--what an interesting link to the use of colour by the Greeks, I'm going to have to read it a second and third time to get the full benefit, there was so much information to absorb; just really enjoy learning aspects of info of this nature

Gumtree--is the spell check on your computer specific to 'Australian
English' ?  Canadian spell check is really American English, and it is so confusing as so many words that I learnt in grade school, spell check to an American spelling; I find so confusing as when I write then spell check it, am never sure if the original was an English I initially learnt, or just my lousy spelling.

I asked a young Canadian grade school teacher how she taught and accepted spelling due to our computers-and she said as long as it was a Canadian or American correct format she was fine with her students spellings. So I imagine Canadian English will meld into American in the next while.

If I try to set the default on my computer to Canadian spelling, the default will need to be reset each time the machine gets shut down it seems, so I just leave it as is!
enough said.
Deb

[Gumtree]

Deb:  Yes, I have English (Australia) on my computer. Some of my friends don't and are constantly aggravated by automatic corrections to the American way - can't imagine why they don't just change their system. I can still spell and rarely use the spell check. In a way it will be a pity when every country spells exactly the same - American version of course - as it will decrease our  individuality. vive la difference

[ginny]

Man, what an interesting discussion! I can't get over the variety of topics. I have loved the pitch thing, who knew? How can one get to my age and not know all this stuff? I found that fascinating. Retsina, now that pronunciation with the T is how Resina, the township which came to be built up following the eruption of Vesuvius over Herculaneum was generally called in the Middle Ages, it's amazing what allusions come to mind here. I'm glad to see the ideas on grey/ gray too, I like grey and so that's how I'm going to spell it if spell check will allow me.

Oh doom is a good theme too Babi, thank you. Am loving the boat discussion.  I read an interesting article on the difference in warships and merchant ships the other day which culminated in the information (this is the OCCL) and I'll offer some of it here as a possible different voice on this subject, I find it fascinating.  

In  the Roman Empire a merchantman could carry 400 tons normally. The current Vatican obelisk was brought by Caligula in an exceptionally large ship just like the Flaminian obelisk was.  The Vatican obelisk weighed about 500 tons and the ship carried in addition some 800 tons (according to Pliny) of lentils as packing.  800 TONS OF LENTILS!!!!

In the 4th century BC there appeared quadriremes and quinquremes, 4 and 5 rows of oarsmen and the quinquereme became the standard warship of the Roman republic.  The crew on a Roman quinquereme numbered 300, but the arrangement of "oars and rowers is even more obscure than in the case of the trireme."

Between 483 BC and 480 BC  Themistocles had 200 triremes build at Athens for defense and by 431 BC the city had 300 triremes.

The arrangement of oars on a trireme has long been a matter or argument. It now seems that there were non each side of the trireme a to row of 31 oars and below it two rows of 27. The rowers sat in three ore or less superimposed rows, called thranitai, zygioi, and thalamioi at the bottom. The individual positions staggered fore and aft so that non was immediately above or below the other; to the outside view this gave a pattern of oblique lines. Each rower thus had his own oar, and the rowers were not seated three to a bench as had sometimes been suggested.....The design was intended to achieve greater oar power than thus to be most efficient in ramming, with as little increase as possible in the weight and length of the ship Even so a good speed for a trireme, in favorable conditions but not under pressure, is unlikely to have exceeded 7 or 8 knots.

Now what is a knot as relates to miles per hour? I know nothing of boats or sailing so this is my one chance to find out. Is this FAST? For a boat?

[ginny]

Am I the only one struck by the parallels here between this great seafaring saga and homecoming and another on the same theme: the Rime of the Ancient Mariner?




Oh! dream of joy! is this indeed
The lighthouse top I see?
Is this the hill? is this the kirk?
Is this mine own country?

We drifted o'er the harbour-bar,
And I with sobs did pray -
O let me be awake, my God!
Or let me sleep alway.

The harbour-bay was clear as glass,
So smoothly it was strewn!
And on the bay the moonlight lay,
And the shadow of the moon.

The rock shone bright, the kirk no less,
That stands above the rock:
The moonlight steeped in silentness
The steady weathercock.

And the bay was white with silent light,
Till rising from the same,
Full many shapes, that shadows were,
In crimson colours came.


He's on a ship propelled by corpses, fast and silent. And out to meet him comes the pilot, the pilot's boy and a hermit:

"This Hermit good lives in that wood
Which slopes down to the sea.
How loudly his sweet voice he rears!
He loves to talk with marineers
That come from a far country.

He kneels at morn, and noon, and eve -
He hath a cushion plump:
It is the moss that wholly hides
The rotted old oak-stump.



So we've got another good man of the woods to go along with our humble shepherd of the Odyssey but in this case, it's the Mariner who has changed. He actually does hear the noise of the partying going on at the wedding


What loud uproar bursts from that door!
The wedding-guests are there:
But in the garden-bower the bride
And bride-maids singing are;
And hark the little vesper bell,
Which biddeth me to prayer!

But he turns away. He has changed. O does not turn away, this is his quest. He's going to seek revenge.

So this is a completely different conclusion, the Mariner is very changed. Whether or not O is changed remains to be seen. Is he?

I found another great set of questions for the Odyssey and they address the idea of the Hero and the Tragjc Flaw. Can we discuss a minute this concept as we have not yet talked about it, at all? What IS a Tragic Flaw?  IS this a tragedy?

We know pretty readily what the Ancient Mariner's Tragic Flaw was, Coleridge makes it clear.

Does O have one? If so what is it? Here are some points they make:


* Heroes: Why do societies create heroes? What values do we expect our heroes to represent? What values did the Greeks expect their heroes to represent? How does the idea of the "tragic flaw" change the way we look at our heroes? Do we look for tragic flaws today?

This sure is a good question, our comic books and movies are FULL of Heroes, why?

* Journeys: Almost all societies contain myths/stories of "The Journey." Why? What is the attraction we have to journeys? What are some of the American Journeys? What lessons, what themes, what values do we see played out in the stories of journeys? (Specific to 'The Odyssey: What was the difference between Odysseus' journey and Telemachus' journey?)

* Character: Whose story is this? Who is the main character, Odysseus or Telemachus? (I love this idea, because we got around the idea of which character changed over the course of the story. Is Odysseus' story really just a vehicle for showing Telemachus' coming of age?) There is so much potential for debate here.

Do you think that the days of Odysseus as a hero are over or will they continue on Ithaca? .

What do you think?

[Babi]

I love your analogy to the Ancient Mariner, GINNY. It's great!

 A 'tragic flaw' is one of those things that seal one's fate. It didn't
have to happen, but because of an innate compulsion there was no doubt that
it would. It's not simply a bad decision, it's a personality trait. "Othello"
is a good example. He was not a bad man; he was a jealous man who was too ready to believe that he was not loved. 

 And aren't journeys another escape, like our beloved books?  A way out, if
only temporarily, of the humdrum and routine of life?

[Gumtree]

Ho Ginny! -  Knots to Miles per hour...  1 Knot = 1.15 mph  so if you take the average of  the triremes at 7knots = just over 8mph. Not so very fast but about twice as fast as an army marches on foot. The triremes went faster under their square sail -but can't remember the figure.

I didn't think it would be too long before you put up The Ancient Mariner.

IS this a tragedy? 

Well, it is if Aristotle has anything to do with it. His Poetics deals with Odyssey and Iliad as tragedy - at least he maintains they are the prototypes of tragedy. Plato called it tragedy as well. Tragedy has so many faces it's hard to arrive at any definition that fits them all - and that's been the case for all these long centuries since the first ones were written,

The tragic hero's 'tragic flaw' is usually a kind of stumbling block - often related to pride - but he has to show courage to a high degree and there is an inevitability about his ultimate defeat which occurs by one means or another. 

The question of 'fate' also arises and takes many forms - in O's case  his 'fate' is manipulated by benign (Athene)  and/or malevolent gods (Poseidon) and with, I think, fate in another form (Zeus) in the background manipulating the lesser gods.

On the other hand there is the view that Iliad is the tragedy and Odyssey the comedy.