Author Topic: Classics Book Club, The (Read 493802 times)

Dana · « **Reply #1560 on:** May 30, 2011, 08:46:46 AM »

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.

Now reading:

June 3-----Book XVI: The Reunion (I)

Odysseus and Eumaios
17th century etching
Theodor van Thulden (1606 - 1669)
Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco

Discussion Leaders: Joan K & ginny

Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
Map of the Voyages of Odysseus
Map of Voyages in order
Map of Stops Numbered
Our Map Showing Place Names in the Odyssey

Odysseus conversing with Eumaios
Engraving and etching on paper
John Flaxman
1805
Tate Gallery

Thoughts to Ponder on 16: Please add your own, too!

Together at Last! What a moving scene as Odysseus and Telemachus reunite.

1. Why does Telemachus call Eumaeus "Papa?" Is that just in Lombardo? What does your book say?

2. Why do you suppose Telemachus councils against telling Laertes the gladsome news?

3. What do you think of Telemachus, now that he's started talking? Do you think he's smart? A chip off the old block? What can you surmise of his character from what he says?

4. "What news from town?
Have the suitors returned from their ambush,
Or are they still looking for me to sail past?" (Telemachus, line 496 ff)

How does Telemachus know that the suitors are planning to ambush him?

5. Speaking of the SUITORS!! Wow wow, who knew? Did you suspect there were so MANY? Did anybody count them? No wonder they're being eaten out of house and home, and what scoundrels they are!

6. Why does T say that Penelope can't seem to decide whether to wait for O or to "go away" with the man among the suitors who is the best? Who gets the kingdom if she does that?

7. What do you think of Odysseus's preparations for the coming battle? Telemachus has reservations, who would you side with?

8. How does the return of the suitors's black ship put a kink in the plans, or does it?

Yes it does, doesn't it BABI, (beautiful flowing sounding nice, I mean). I just love the way Greek is made up of these strung together words--rosy fingered, beautiful cheeked, etc etc etc.........the most divine language I have ever tried to learn....dreadful verbs, all irregular, but worth every minute of the frustration.......

ginny · « **Reply #1561 on:** May 30, 2011, 09:15:36 AM »

Babi, I have no idea! I just read a huge long long thing on the rights of women in noble ancient Greece (very badlly treated) and in Rome (much better woman's lot) but nobody covered divorce and its aftermath, so I wouldn't want to hazard a guess. Can anybody find the answers in some sort of reputable site to Babi's question about what happened to women after a divorce?

Here's the question again: Did a woman in those circumstances have any recourse? Could she return to her father? Marry?

JoanK, I think that the l.365 is as you surmise and Dana says, the Lattimore translation line, the original being 295. Since Strabo was a geographer, I have no idea what his reference places mean. I'm hopelessly geographically challenged, hilariously so, I'm afraid.

Gum and RR,

on the chook hahaaa.

Pat H and Dana, I wonder why there IS so much emphasis on "trickery." Perhaps the Greeks admired somebody who was quick witted and thought on the fly? O has used his wits all along here, starting with the Trojan Horse and in the Cyclop's cave. I can't help but wonder since Athene here is also portrayed as being devious (which seems to be the same thing as clever and a godlike trait) if it's thought of as desirable.

Not just brawn but brain too? Which, I wonder, will get him what he wants in the end?

How much simpler, to me, and more straightforward, if Athene had simply said, hey, dad's BACK!

That would have gotten him up too? Why take the time to blacken women (if we accept the premise of the scholars that Athene was not blackening Penelope at all but merely talking about women in general)?

I'm trying to get a handle on what's admirable about the "wily" Odysseus?

Thing is, brawn won't do him much good with the suitors. He needs something else. The suitors are standing in the way of his homecoming and goals.

Also it seems one suitor has emerged as the most likely, according to Athene anyway. Then why don't the others go home?

O by himself can't, even with the help of Athene, overpower them and throw them out, he must have these tricky wiles about him, apparently.

The "gods" seem limited in what they can do, or so it seems to me.

I would say the main female character so far in the Odyssey is Athene. I think she becomes the main character because she gets more press time, she's always there (or so she says) but we're hearing a lot more about her than Penelope, and she's playing a more powerful part.

She still irritates me. But what else can O do? He could march in and be killed. Of course if he had not lost his army he wouldn't be. Of course he could go to Menelaus and get HIS army, he's already said he would help, why does this not occur to him?

JoanK · « **Reply #1562 on:** May 30, 2011, 09:59:32 PM »

Just saw the PBS show on building the Pharoah's boat. Is that one of the links you had, Barb? Fascinating! A 3500 year old boat (about 800 years older than homer) duplicated from a picture on an Egyptian tomb. And sailed on the Red Sea! In concept nothing like the boaats of today. No ribs! Just strong pieces of wood, cut in all kinds of odd shapes to fit together like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle, a zillion joints, made up caulking (linen and beeswax-- that was kind of cheating, but it wouldn't work without caulking), a wide sail and crazy rigging that looked like it would never work, and it sailed like a dream!

PatH · « **Reply #1563 on:** May 30, 2011, 10:26:17 PM »

Oooh! I wish I'd seen it.

Babi · « **Reply #1564 on:** May 31, 2011, 08:48:05 AM »

Actually, GINNY, DANA was able to clarify what actually happened. She
reported that the legend was that the lady wasn't 'dumped' on the brother;
she was won for the purpose of being the brother's bride. Of course, that
still leaves the question open of what happened to an abandoned woman of
good family. (The lower class females, of course, would simply find another
man.

) Right?

Quote

hey, dad's BACK!

(Ginny)
I love that! Nothing so straightforward for our Athena. She loves the manipulation, the schemes, the moving of the human chess pieces. She wants to end with a grand, smug, TA-RA!!!

Frybabe · « **Reply #1565 on:** May 31, 2011, 08:59:16 AM »

Quote

Of course he could go to Menelaus and get HIS army, he's already said he would help, why does this not occur to him?

Ginny

Possibilities: Athena didn't include it in her instructions. O was on home ground now and wanted to BE home. Going to Menelaus would have meant more travel and more lost time, not to mention not strictly obeying Athena's instructions and, possibly, giving Poseidon another crack at him.

ginny · « **Reply #1566 on:** May 31, 2011, 10:01:29 AM »

Babi, I think you're right about Athene, she prides herself on the cleverness. I don't know historically what a divorced or shunned off woman would do, specific instances aside.

Frybabe but Athene has GONE to Menelaus's palace and T is there. O doesn't have to go anywhere, but maybe he would need to? All she'd have to say is hey, O is back and needs everybody's help. But she doesn't.

As you say IF O went he'd have more adventures and perils.

I do wonder why, tho, SHE couldn't have at least told T and gotten more help, an army. They all have options. Maybe because this legend, of O the wanderer may be based more in fact than we think, and O would have to request assistance himself. If Athene is merely a figment to explain events (which makes sense) then Homer would need to stick to what was accepted for the times. Too bad we can't get Homer resurrected for a dinner. I love those questions: who in history would you like to eat dinner with, choose 3.

I've got two from the Roman era, it would be interesting to see one from the Greek. It's an interesting concept. Of course I'm just guessing, I really have no idea.

Joan K, how fascinating, I do wish I had seen that also.

JoanK · « **Reply #1567 on:** May 31, 2011, 02:33:10 PM »

Let's move on to the next Chapter (Chapter 16) on Friday.

Would anyone feel rushed if we set a pace of about 5 days a chaprter instead of a week? We don't want to wear out our welcome, and the plot is thickening!

Now I've got a mystery book from the library with a setting in Ancient Greece (the Pericles commission) I'll let you all know how it goes.

Mippy · « **Reply #1568 on:** May 31, 2011, 04:30:47 PM »

Y'all just continue at your pace, I'm way behind! I'll begin to catch up tomorrow night!

Still a mommy's helper at my daughters's house in Medfield today, and darling Baby Erin just is 5 weeks old!
Heading home tomorrow to Cape Cod, to rescue hubby from the hazard of figuring out how to run the new side-loading washing machine ... things have sure changed from the days of Penelope! After I do due-diligence on housework, laundry, and dog walking, I'll return to Medfield on Sunday. I'm having a great time, but am tired.

Summer Latin group begins next Monday! Hurray!

Gumtree · « **Reply #1569 on:** June 01, 2011, 05:54:51 AM »

JoanK: No worries - as they say - do move on as you wish. Like Mippy I'm also behind with the reading - probably with less reason. I've read it before but need to refresh - I promise I will catch up...

Babi · « **Reply #1570 on:** June 01, 2011, 09:36:29 AM »

Sounds like sound reasoning to me, FRYBABE. If it were me, having finally
set foot on home ground, there is no way I'd take another detour!

Quote

"Maybe because this legend, of O the wanderer may be based more in fact
than we think.."

(Ginny)
I have never assumed this whole saga was entirely fiction, but rather
that is based on a true story that doubtless saw many 'sea changes' before
reaching us. It makes sense that there would be limits on the liberties one could
take with a well known story.

JudeS · « **Reply #1571 on:** June 01, 2011, 02:18:11 PM »

I have been tracking down the answer to the question "Is The Odyssey a ragedy and if not why not?" I peeked into many sources but was helped mostly by "The Greek Way" by Edith Hamilton.

Tragedy was a Greek creation because in Greece thought was free. Early Greek writers (including Homer)wrote about Godlike heroes and Hero Gods fighting in far off places. This was a lyric world where every common object is touched by beauty.
Then a new age dawned, not satisfied with adventure and beauty, an age that wanted to know and explain.For the first time tragedy appears (in the works of Aeschylus). Tragedy is pain transmuted into poetry. Pain,sorrow and disaster are spokenof as dragging down--the dark abyss of pain. Tragedy uplifts us to heights.There is something in tragedy that marks it off from disaster.
Hegel writes:" The only tragic subject is a spiritual struggle in which each side has a claim upon our sympathy. There is no tragedy without a soul in agony."
The Odyssey is not a tragedy since Odysseus is a brave, heroic trickster and not a soul in agony.
The Greek tragedians wrote "The mystery of evil curtains that of which everyman whose soul is not a clod hath visions. Pain can exalt and for for a moment men could have sight of a meaning beyond their grasp."

Dana · « **Reply #1572 on:** June 01, 2011, 08:35:10 PM »

So far I have never grasped trragedy. When I read Shakespeare which is the closest I have got so far, I find Macbeth a greedy ambitious would be king, King Lear a silly old man, maybe a bit demented, and Othello a jealous idiot. Now maybe we need to read a real Greek tragedy next. ( Or maybe I do !). I wanted to read one in Greek but they are very difficult according to the author of my Greek text book, who suggested I try some simpler stuff first. BUT, how about a Greek tragedy next??

JoanK · « **Reply #1573 on:** June 01, 2011, 09:28:36 PM »

"How about a greek tragedy next". I'm with that!

JUDE: what thought inspiring quotes. " The only tragic subject is a spiritual struggle in which each side has a claim upon our sympathy. There is no tragedy without a soul in agony."

I agree that O doesn't fit this definition. Sometimes he is in agony, but because he can't get home. he doesn't seem to have any spiritual struggle.

And again ""The mystery of evil curtains that of which everyman whose soul is not a clod hath visions. Pain can exalt and for for a moment men could have sight of a meaning beyond their grasp."

As a child, I always thought it was a tragedy if people died at the end. And I guess I mener moved past that. But these two definitions talk about spiritual questions as more important than death.

JoanK · « **Reply #1574 on:** June 01, 2011, 09:30:47 PM »

I started to read my "Greek" detective story. The detective is Socrates' older brother. Socretes, a child, keeps saying "I think...." and older brother tells him not to think so much.

Frybabe · « **Reply #1575 on:** June 01, 2011, 09:35:59 PM »

Sounds good to me Dana. The only Greek play I ever read was Oedipus Rex for a lit class eons ago, so I am badly in need of updating myself.

Babi · « **Reply #1576 on:** June 02, 2011, 09:39:35 AM »

It does seem to me that the Odyssey is more of an adventure, a saga, than
a tragedy. I have to agree that the soul-wrenching decisions and choices
are at the heart of a true tragedy.
I'm not at all sure I agree with the notion that pain exalts. Isn't persistent,
unavoidable pain terribly demoralizing, eating away at the individuals
dignity, courage, and emotional balance?

Dana · « **Reply #1577 on:** June 02, 2011, 10:27:13 AM »

I agree with you BABI. If tragedy is supposed to exalt pain then that's an example of human hypocrisy and double think as far as I'm concerned (I mean, exalting pain,.... its all right to do if its someone else's I guess).
But I don't see the exaltation of pain in Shakespeare's tragedies. To me they illustrate different human frailties of character: greed, ambition, jealousy,inability to decide, naive trust. And then the play shows how the heroes have to take the consequences (death) of their flawed judgements. Maybe the tragedy is that they don't get away with their weakenesses as we usually manage to do!

JoanK · « **Reply #1578 on:** June 02, 2011, 03:24:14 PM »

" Maybe the tragedy is that they don't get away with their weakenesses as we usually manage to do!"

Good point!

Well, no one said they didn't want to move on, so I guess we will tomorrow. there's a certain unfairness here. For those of us reading a modern translation like Lombardo, it's a fairly easy read, while those reading an older translation like Pope have to work much harder. I admire you, but have to admit I like the relative ease of understanding.

ginny · « **Reply #1579 on:** June 02, 2011, 09:02:08 PM »

Yes it's really delightful, the Lombardo, and so quick and easy you can do 16 in just a few minutes but I do have questions on it.

Right Babi, the adventure, the hallmark of the Epic Poem which this is and the Epic Hero and I liked that Jude, super work! I do recall there are several different definitions of tragedy, too, Dana and I think you're right and perhaps the Shakespearean and the ancient Greek might be quite different. It really might be fun to compare themes, to read a Greek tragedy and then compare Shakespeare's treatment of same. With me the issue was always did the protagonist's tragic flaw lead to his own destruction, and if so I was prepared to call it a tragedy, but you all have opened up all kinds of other doors. Such an interesting discussion, I love it. Frybabe, I agree, I'm in serious arrears, for my part I hope we can skip Oedipus next time, but of course the vote will tell all.

I will be off tomorrow so for 16 I need to start a few thoughts flowing now.

Together at Last! What a moving scene as Odysseus and Telemachus reunite. Why does Telemachus call Eumaeus "Papa?" Is that just Lombardo? What does your book say?

Obviously by the behavior of the dogs, the son of the king is no stranger to Eumaeus' house.

Why do you suppose Telemachus councils against telling Laertes the gladsome news?

What do you think of Telemachus, now that he's started talking? Do you think he's smart? A chip off the old block? What seems to be constantly on his mind?

"What news from town?
Have the suitors returned from their ambush,
Or are they still looking for me to sail past?" (Telemachus, line 496 ff)

How does HE know that the suitors are planning to ambush him? Have I missed something? I honestly don't remember his being told, do you?

And speaking of the SUITORS!! Wow wow, who knew? Did you suspect there were so MANY? Did anybody count them? No wonder they're being eaten out of house and home, and what scoundrels they are!

Now T says that Penelope can't seem to decide whether to wait for O or to "go away" with the man among the suitors who is the best.

Huh? I thought the entire purpose of marrying HER was to get the kingdom? If you "go away" with the best suitor....I guess this is why Telemachus's death is planned?

So they can have the kingdom, too? ...or?

What do you think of Odysseus's plan for the coming battle? Telemachus has reservations, who would you side with?

How does the return of the suitors's black ship put a kink in the plans, or does it?

This is getting kind of exciting and since I lack any more illustrations for 16 I'll put these up in the heading and maybe you can add more things that you wondered about, lots to discuss in this seemingly innocent happy chapter: let's discuss!

Frybabe · « **Reply #1580 on:** June 03, 2011, 12:10:35 AM »

Odd, I thought Telemachus was told, I'll have to go back.

Re the suiters: Although it wasn't spelled out, I my interpretation is that each suiter came with others of his tribe/kingdom which I took to mean he brought with him a whole retinue for subordinates and followers.

ginny · « **Reply #1581 on:** June 03, 2011, 06:46:14 AM »

Frybabe, I agree, it would make sense for them to bring a retinue, like the Medieval kings. It looks like (at least in Lombardo, I need now to read the more literal Murray) that the suitors are differentiated from their hangers on, in the count, is that what you all see? I've got suitors counted differently from the help. For instance I've got

"And from Ithaca itself, twelve, all the noblest,
And with them are Medon the herald,
The divine bard, and two attendants who carve.
If we go up against all of them in the hall...." (somewhere around l. 268)

So there are 12 suitors alone from Ithaca, which is kind of a shock, isn't it? But it would seem he'll have to fight the entire herd of those assembled.

(hahaha on the "who carve," from what I've seen so far of the importance of food, they need 100 carvers.

These suitors from Ithaca itself seem to be a MAJOR point, if I'm reading my new Hexter commentary right. That's sort of mind blowing.

Maybe that helps explain this fixation O seems to have with "testing" people's loyalty?

Babi · « **Reply #1582 on:** June 03, 2011, 08:34:30 AM »

In my version (Fitzgerald), Telemachos calls Eumaeus "Uncle". 'Uncle'
seems to have always been a courtesy title for an older friend who fills a
paternal role in a child's life.
I find it hard to believe any household could support that many 'suitors'
and their retinues for years! And while I understand Penelope's delaying
tactics, it does seem she could have gotten rid of some of them, at least.
Couldn't she simply say something like,..'I do not wish to leave Ithaca. For
that reason, I can only consider those suitors native to this country. The
rest of you..please go home!' The Ithacans would be happy to support her in
this decision.

Dana · « **Reply #1583 on:** June 03, 2011, 11:10:14 AM »

I checked on the Greek word translated as "Uncle" or "Papa" and it is "atta" which is used to address an elder. The Greek for grandfather is "pappos" interestingly enough.

Telemachos comes across as a real straight arrow, unlike his dad, and a nice guy too, unstuck up, pleasant to beggars....!.
In my translation Athena does warn him that a ship will be lying in wait for him on his way home.
I think he told Eumaios to come back quickly "not to be caught alone in the countryside." I expect the suitors know that he is a supporter of the royal house, and, learning that Telemachos has made it home safely, might try to see if he knows anything re T.'s whereabouts if they caught him. However T. immediately suggests that the old housekeeper be sent on the quiet to tell his pappos, again, I think, showing what a nice, sensible, kind, guy he is.

sandyrose · « **Reply #1584 on:** June 03, 2011, 04:54:03 PM »

In my Rieu translation, near the beginning of Book 15, Athene warns Telemachus....The ringleaders among the Suitors are lying in ambush in the straits between Ithaca and the rugged coast of Samos, intent on murdering you before you can reach home.

And also, in Rieu Book 15--Helen of the lovely cheeks stood by.....I think high cheekbones have always been considered beautiful. So "lovely bones" also works.

I thought it odd that Telemachus took the stranger with him. Sort of like picking up a hitchhiker which could be dangerous for either.

Book 16 Rieu, Telemachus calls Eumaeus "old friend". In the introduction it says...Eumaeus greets Telemachus like a father greets a son.

Dana, I agree, Telemachus is not like his father, not foolhardy. But, he will step up to the plate when the time comes.

JoanK · « **Reply #1585 on:** June 03, 2011, 07:22:59 PM »

I admit all this business of O changing --- now he's old, now he's young, now he tells this one but doesn't tell that one --- you go here and he goes there etc. just makes my head hurt. It seems so unnecessarily complicated. But what do I know.

The scene between O and T is touching. At one point, Lombardo says that O had nwever seen T. I thought elsewhere that t was an infant when O left. In any case, they don't know each other. how proud O must be to find his son such a good man. And T must be proud of his father, too.

kidsal · « **Reply #1586 on:** June 04, 2011, 12:34:52 AM »

In Pope, Telemachus calls Eumaeus friend and also by his name.
Telemachus is more careful now -- doesn't accept everyone's word -- not even O. Not to sure about O's plan to kill the suitors.
I have 108 suitors and about 10 other hangers-on.

roshanarose · « **Reply #1587 on:** June 04, 2011, 12:36:03 AM »

An excellent book I have just finished reading may be of interest to our classicists.

"The Bull of Minos" by Leonard of Cottrell. ISBN 960 226 2710

Non Fiction - About the discovery and work of Heinreich Schliemann at Mycenae, and Sir Arthur Evans at Knossos. Written in a simple, imaginative and scholarly way. It even has pix of that tusk helmet - How is yours coming along PatH, caught any tuskers yet?

ginny · « **Reply #1588 on:** June 04, 2011, 10:38:13 AM »

Sally, I wondered where you were! 108 suitors and 10 hangers on! And that possibly doesn't include others, servants, etc. I was hoping somebody would take the time to count them, that's a lot!

But it's not really all that unusual, is it? I am thinking about the peregrinations of the time of Henry VIII, it seems that I read or heard somewhere, possibly at Hampton Court itself how large these traveling parties could be. There seems to be an entire tradition of this type of traveling, am thinking incongruously of Biltmore House and the days of travel, and how they'd come and stay months and bring (not this big obviously) an entire retinue with them.

Still 108 would truly eat you out of house and home and it also would be a formidable force for one man, either T or O to deal with, too. I mean one against 2 is bad enough, one against 108 is pretty dire.

That does sound a great book, RoshanaRose, I'll see if I can get a copy, love that Schliemann stuff and have not read about Arthur Evans at Knossos.

Sandy Rose, thank you for identifying where T is told about the ambush. Homer is getting like some textbook authors I have seen: mention it once and expect the reader to remember, good for you!

Thank you all for the different translations on what E called T and why (sorry for the ET stuff, can't type and am tired of correcting these long names). ahahhaa ET call home, that's what they are doing.

ginny · « **Reply #1589 on:** June 04, 2011, 11:05:09 AM »

I love all the different translations on what Telemachus calls Eumaeus!! Thank you for that Greek translation of the actual word , too, Dana, I think the different translators are fascinating, don't you all? Murray (the literal one with the Loeb series ) has "father."

JoanK, hahaa I love reading your posts. At this point what else do you find irritating besides about the shape shifting of O and the suitors and what else?

I have to idly wonder if this feeling of irritation is brought on BY Homer for some reason. For instance are we all here READY to get rid of the suitors and READY to see O finally quit all this subterfuge and get ON with it? So far his quitting all the smoke screens has not been particularly helpful, all he's done is cry. And lose men. Are we ready to rumble as they say? Imagine how the listener felt who heard this thing?

After all, the book is titled "Odyssey" and he's home. But he's got one more task to do like Hercules before he can truly be "home." I am idly wondering if the list of things to be done in the Odyssey also adds up to 12 Labors.

I'd love to know where the lunch breaks were, in the recitation of the Odyssey as we've learned did occur. I am willing to bet somebody knows, and that they end with cliff hangers.

I really am enjoying everybody's takes on Telemachus and his character. We seem to ascribe all sorts of positive things to HIM, of course he's not been thru what O has. It's obvious as JoanK says he's not been seen by his father since an infant, which means Penelope raised him which means she did a good job.

Imagine 108 people to dine every night.

Telemachus also talks about the gods in every other breath. It's hard TO find him not talking about the gods, so he has a spiritual side as well, apparently.

Yes I also thought that Telemachus taking this stranger with him seemed odd, I wonder what part the stranger might play in what's to come.

Babi, great question: Couldn't she simply say something like,..'I do not wish to leave Ithaca. For
that reason, I can only consider those suitors native to this country. The
rest of you..please go home!' The Ithacans would be happy to support her in
this decision.

Apparently the presence OF the Ithacans there is something of a controversy, does anybody have anything on it? If she said that could there have been war?

Here are yet more questions, this set on 16 from http://www.ajdrake.com/e240_fall_03/materials/authors/homer_sq.htm, a course somewhere, I thought this was interesting:

Book 16

49. In this book Odysseus reveals his identity to Telemachus. What does the reaction of the two characters tell us about the Greeks' attitude towards the expression of emotion? How does their attitude differ from ours? (Think of American film heroes like John Wayne or Clint Eastwood.)

50. In what ways does Telemachus show in this book that he has matured?

I just watched a movie last night called Hanging On, and it had John Wayne mentioned in it. We have a tradition in this country of strong silent men, usually in Westerns. I like this first question (I like ours better) but neither of these had occurred to me. What do you think?

I'm still hung up on the plans to stow the weapons of war but leave them a few out and here Murray says that these lines, lines 281-198 (288-94) were rejected by Zenodotus and Aristarchus.

Those lines are about hiding the weapons.

On the "out of the smoke have I laid them since they are no longer like those which of old Odysseus left behind him when he went off to Troy but are all befouled, so far as the breath of the fire has reached them." (l.288) (These are the words O tells T to tell the suitors when they miss the arms and question him.)

In this befouled and out of the smoke business Murray says:

"The Homeric house had no chimney, and the walls with the weapons hanging on them naturally became grimy with soot from the fire which burned in the center of the hall."

The problem I'm having here is would this stash of arms INCLUDE those from the "black ship" which has just landed or not?

So that leaves Laertes. Why does Telemachus not want him told, too?

JoanK · « **Reply #1590 on:** June 04, 2011, 02:24:59 PM »

GINNY: " I am thinking about the peregrinations of the time of Henry VIII, it seems that I read or heard somewhere, possibly at Hampton Court itself how large these traveling parties could be."

I read (in a detective story, where else) that one reason Henry VIII would pick up the court and travel around was because the sanitary facilities at Hampton court would become overloaded. He had to get everyone out of the way, and doing their business somewhere else while new ones were dug.

(Talk about lowering the level of the conversation!!!)

Of course, another reason was to save money. H VIII let his subjects pay for the upkeep of his trememdous court for awhile, as the suitors are doing.

I'm surprized there were 12 lords in Ithaca, of a rank to marry P. I was thinking of ithaca as a small island. I guess not.

The emotion O and T feel on meeting is very consistant with what we've seen all along. O and the Greek men have no trouble crying and showing emotion. Maybe that has been true in the majority of cultures throughout history, and it is our Western European culture that is unusual in not allowing men full play of their emotions. What do you all think?

JoanK · « **Reply #1591 on:** June 04, 2011, 02:27:36 PM »

"So that leaves Laertes. Why does Telemachus not want him told, too?"

I haven't a clue! Anyone else?

Mippy · « **Reply #1592 on:** June 04, 2011, 05:13:17 PM »

The emotion they display seems quite sincere! I really like this chapter, after what seems like months and months of waiting for O. to get home again.

Babi · « **Reply #1593 on:** June 04, 2011, 05:16:24 PM »

I believe both those reasons for the 'King's Progress' journeys are true, JOANK. I've
heard there is another as well. If a noble was getting a bit big for his britches, the
king could 'honor' him with a nice, long visit that would put a considerable dent in his
financial resources. Tended to cool down any belligerent tendencies, I understand.

I think Telemachus concern was that a further journey by the swineherd to speak to
Laertes would attract the attention of the suitors. The alternative proposal, that the
secret would be taken to Laertes by the old servant woman, met with his approval. There
would be nothing out of the ordinary in that.

ginny · « **Reply #1594 on:** June 04, 2011, 05:46:26 PM »

I've been looking at Hampton Court Palace, the official site, which is fascinating in the extreme, they even have a cookbook of the recipes served and they give two recipes there free with the original spelling and words and then "translated." Photos even!

It says:

Built to feed the Court of Henry VIII, these kitchens were designed to feed at least 600 people twice a day.

http://www.hrp.org.uk/HamptonCourtPalace/stories/thetudorkitchens.aspx

and:

The annual provision of meat for the Tudor court stood at 1,240 oxen, 8,200 sheep, 2,330 deer, 760 calves, 1,870 pigs and 53 wild boar.

This was all washed down with 600,000 gallons of beer.

So I'm not sure that the Greeks here are outdoing them.

On his retinue I found him at the Field of the Cloth of Gold:

In 1520 Henry was persuaded to forge an alliance with France. A meeting was arranged between the two monarchs at a location just outside Calais, a bit of unremarkable countryside between the villages of Ardres and Guines. Francis and Henry were personal as well as political rivals, and each king prided himself on the magnificence of his court. Henry brought with him virtually his entire court, and he was determined to impress his host with the size and splendour of his retinue.

When it was determined that the castles of both villages were in too great a state of disrepair to house the courts, they camped in fields, Francis at Ardres and Henry at Guines. This was no ordinary camping expedition, however; huge pavilions were erected to serve as halls and chapels, and great silken tents decorated with gems and cloth of gold. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CDEQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.britainexpress.com%2FHistory%2Ftudor%2Fcloth-gold.htm&rct=j&q=Henry%20VIII%20traveling%20retinue&ei=EafqTdTbNszpgAeq88nXCQ&usg=AFQjCNGn9FeCVFJfMkNlOsHpa03KQiaIeQ&cad=rja

Another book by Winston Churchill , you really should look at this one, called a History of the English Speaking Peoples (have never read this book, and it's really lavishly illustrated) says his traveling court on one occasion was 4,000. http://books.google.com/books?id=s0EEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA76&lpg=PA76&dq=Henry+VIII+traveling+retinue&source=bl&ots=oglTUiv4bQ&sig=Ib6PSJthckLYT1_2x-U5jtwgMmw&hl=en&ei=EafqTdTbNszpgAeq88nXCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBQ

So one might be forgiven to be dismayed at HIS arrival!

That's a big court!

Dana · « **Reply #1595 on:** June 04, 2011, 06:52:53 PM »

Quote from: Dana on June 03, 2011, 11:10:14 AM

I checked on the Greek word translated as "Uncle" or "Papa" and it is "atta" which is used to address an elder. The Greek for grandfather is "pappos" interestingly enough.

Telemachos comes across as a real straight arrow, unlike his dad, and a nice guy too, unstuck up, pleasant to beggars....!.
In my translation Athena does warn him that a ship will be lying in wait for him on his way home.
I think he told Eumaios to come back quickly "not to be caught alone in the countryside." I expect the suitors know that he is a supporter of the royal house, and, learning that Telemachos has made it home safely, might try to see if he knows anything re T.'s whereabouts if they caught him. However T. immediately suggests that the old housekeeper be sent on the quiet to tell his pappos, again, I think, showing what a nice, sensible, kind, guy he is.

Sorry i ended up quoting all my previous post--the bit that's relevant is the bit about why Telemachus told Eumaios to come home quickly

Babi · « **Reply #1596 on:** June 05, 2011, 08:38:53 AM »

GINNY, JEAN posted this link in Non-fiction and I'm bringing it over here. If
you aren't already familiar with it, you'll love it!
http://www.third-millennium-library.com/readinghall/GalleryofHistory/DOOR.html

bookad · « **Reply #1597 on:** June 05, 2011, 12:36:04 PM »

am really enjoying the information put out, about the courts of England; their travelling, lengths of stay and the effect on the hosts,(all posted previously) and the reasoning of sewage problems therefore the reasoning why the courts was forced to be away for lengthy times --even if only someone's surmising an interesting point

humanizes history for me

am relenting on my earlier 'harsh criticism', of Homer's Odyssey, not understanding whether to laugh at some of the antics of his characters, or try to understand where they were coming from in their century and culture; this is not a comedy, though to me it bears some ideas that are hard to take seriously--

Deb

JoanK · « **Reply #1598 on:** June 05, 2011, 08:32:50 PM »

DEB: " to understand where they were coming from in their century and culture". That's one of the great things about reading books written in opther times and places. It makes me realize how different different cultures can be. I always seem to learn from it: sometimes I find new ideas or ways of acting I really like: sometimes I DON'T like them: either way, I learn about what possibilities otheer peoples have chosen, and WE have chosen.

For a small example: the idea that men shouldn't cry. Whether we like it or not, it's fascinating to realize that the idea is a product of our culture, completely unknown in other cultures. Someone once said that a fish cannot see the water he swims in. Only if he could get outside his pond and look back, could he see the water. that's us, swimming in our little pond of OUR time and OUR place and assuming that that is the universe of human experience.

roshanarose · « **Reply #1599 on:** June 06, 2011, 01:28:50 AM »

For me reading the Odyssey is pure pleasure as it is set in my favourite time in Greek history. The other point I must add is that I have learned so much, and my Greek history is not poor. As for taking it seriously, humorously, tragically, well, that should always be subjective. If one enjoys it - that is all that really counts.

Joan and Deb - great posts. What you wrote about crying was/is so true. I suspect that Australian/English and possibly American men would never ever want to be seen crying; I think that a lot of women are also like that now because they want to somehow impress their menfolk. And the men would most likely baulk at buying material for a woman's garment as well.

It reminded me of an Afghan friend who asked me to go shopping in the city (it's a big city - 2mil population - where I live)with him. I agreed, his wife was ill, he said. So off we went. We must have made a strange couple. I remember when I first saw Amini (my friend) I paused a little - he looks like a bandit! Long black hair and a black beard and droopy moustache; with wild black eyes. But as we know looks can be deceiving. Amini wanted to visit the most expensive dress material shop in the city. Gardams - very exclusive. The looks on the faces of the women behind the counter were priceless when they spotted Amini. He walked into the shop with the confidence of a man who knew what he was doing and what he wanted. Their eyes opened even wider when he held a roll of purple velvet up against himself as a model. Even I was slightly taken aback at this gesture. Then he took the roll of velvet and rushed outside with it into the crowded street, asking me if I could tell the shop assistants he wanted to see it in natural light.

Amini asked me my opinion of the purple velvet and did I think his wife would like it. I told him that I liked it and I thought that she would too. He paid quite a large sum and bought three metres.

When he got home his wife turned her nose up and said she didn't like it at all, but she took it anyway. Many Afghan women were not allowed to shop in Afghanistan, and I think Amina still bears many emotional scars from her life there.

Aminis job in Afghanistan was seller of materials, so he was very au fait with the procedures required to buy and sell. His outward bandit like appearance was so different to the way he acted in the material shop in the city. No wonder they were surprised. Big culture shock for them, but not for him.

Just using this as an example of 1) the neverending fascination of working with and having "refugees" as students and friends; and 2) our way is most certainly not the ONLY way, for better or worse.

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