Classics Book Club, The

[Dana]

Welcome to

Vote now thru January  22!  Just click on:
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/7LV3VLC

The Classics Book Club,  a forum for reading in translation  those timeless classics written by ancient authors you always meant to get around to but never have. We've done the Iliad, and we did  the Odyssey, but it was in 1996, so it's back up for grabs and  what of the Aeneid?  Aeschylus? Euripides?  Plutarch? Plato?

Cleopatra is all the rage currently, with two new books and a claim her palace in Alexandria has just been found, she's hot. Why? Do what Shakespeare did and read the original sources, a world of incredible fascination and insights awaits.

The floor is now open for nominations!  We'll vote January 15 for one week and we'll begin discussing part of the book (which you'll determine first) February 15.

 Bring all your background materials, we'll desperately need them,  and join us on an unforgettable enriching adventure! Dust off those old moldy books you always intended to read and join our merry band of adventurers in our new venture: The Classics Book Club!

Everyone is welcome!  

  

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  

Nominate through January 14, we'll vote on the 15th-22.
                   

Title	Author
The Odyssey	Homer (c.800 B.C.)
The Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans	Plutarch (c.46 A.D.- c. 120 A.D.)
The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius	Marcus Aurelius (121 -180 A.D.)
Antigone	Sophocles (c.496-406/5 B.C.)
The Aeneid	Virgil (70-19 B.C.)
Metamorphoses (The Golden Ass)	Apuleius (c. 155 A.D.)
Poetics	Aristotle  (384-322 B.C.)
Aesop's Fables	Aesop  (c. 550 B.C.)
On Old Age	Cicero  (106-43 B.C.)
Metamorphoses	Ovid  (43 B.C.- 18 A.D.)
waiting for your nomination	TBD

Vote now thru January  22!  Just click on:
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/7LV3VLC

Marcus Aurelius or the Odyssey are my choices.  I think the odyssey wd be more fun tho because M. Aurelius has a rather depressing (altho realistic)  view of the human condition.

[Susan]

I'd like to recommend Homer's The Iliad.Last week I happened to hear Eleanor Wachtel on her weekly CBC radio show Writers and Company interview Caroline Alexander about her book The War the Killed Achilles. She goes back too Homer’s Iliad which encompasses 2 weeks towards the end of the 10-year Trojan War. In discussing Achilles’s difference with his commander Agamemnon on the need to prolongue the war, Caroline presented many parallels between their discussions and ours today regarding war. She made the Iliad seem most modern and significant and whetted my appetite to read it.

 This link will take you to the podcast:

http://www.cbc.ca/video/news/audioplayer.html?clipid=1734663273

Susan from Ginny's Latin105a Latin class.

[ginny]

Susan, WELCOME! We are so glad to have you! Agamemnon, we could do an entire year on him, and that sounds fabulous. If you have not read the Iliad, you are right, you really want to.

We just actually did the Iliad, unfortunately, when.. about a couple of years ago? It's pretty strong in memory. We did it with one of the translators, Dr. Lombardo (I recommend his version over any other) and Dr. Stone who taught a course in it. It's still pretty fresh in our memory (or is it, Everybody?) and so I'd hate to do it over when there are so many others. That said,  truly the Iliad, to me, is the big one of the Big Three.  Since it's about rage (and is SO applicable as you say to modern warfare, cf. Achilles in Vietnam) it's not the same charming tale as the Odyssey, nor a political history like the Aeneid, but is sort of hard to put down.

It surprised me, actually, and certainly should be on everybody's read list. Thank you for that nomination, please do not leave, there are a lot of us here and only one pick, for the first one, anyway, we'll start voting this Saturday the 15th for a week. And hopefully we'll enjoy the discussion so much we may do another one next time.

We have, once we select something, a lot to decide. Even before we select we need to consider the length of the piece: do we want  a short one to get our feet wet or a longer epic? So much to consider!

Welcome Susan, I'd say your taste is perfect, the Iliad is the prize, unfortunately recently claimed. or IS it, what do you all think?

[ginny]

Looking over the slate, it's a pretty strong one, I hesitate to add Ovid's Metamorphoses to it because of the length, but the stories there are just as compelling as any in the Odyssey: Midas, Arachne, the Trojan War, Theseus, Jason and the Argonauts, Niobe, Baucis and Philemon, etc., etc., etc. if it's an old myth, it's in Ovid. I'll add it but beware, it's gigantic in length.

Here's a review from Amazon:

The stories of the Metamorphoses are, of course, wonderful. It's the book itself that I want to talk about.

The beautiful Waterhouse painting on the cover spans the front and part of the back covers. The line numbers at the top of each text page are those of the Latin text in the Loeb edition; how many translators would go to that kind of trouble for you? Rolfe Humphries' introduction is light, funny, and enjoyable. His love of his work shines through. The last line of his intro is, "So - here he is [Ovid], and I hope you like him."

The table of contents is annotated, making it easy to find any major story you are looking for. I also love the designs at the beginning of each book/chapter: such details enhance my enjoyment of reading this edition.

If you have never read Ovid's Metamorphoses, don't be intimidated. It is a collection of mythology stories, and you will find much that is probably familiar to you (Echo and Narcissus, Jason, Pygmalion, and more). If you are at all serious about literature, this is a basic building block in your knowledge. And even if you're not, it's just a damn good book.

The translation itself is so fluent and enjoyable. Just listen to the introduction:

My intention is to tell of bodies changed
To different forms; the gods, who made the changes,
Will help me - or so I hope - with a poem
That runs from the world's beginning to our own days.

This is exciting, eloquent stuff! Please do yourself a favor and make sure you read this at some point during your lifetime.

In addition, no slate is complete without  Cicero, what a man! What a complex, emotional man.

His works are relatively short. It's possible to find his On Old Age alone or with others.

From Amazon:

Marcus Tullius Cicero was multi-talented and distinguished Rome?s greatest orator and innovator of Ciceronian rhetoric. He is also known as scholar, lawyer and statesman. He wrote books of rhetoric, philosophy, political essays, orations and letters.

It's an essay on old age and death. Its rational and philosophical subject matter is embellished by beautiful language. This book is a luminous substantiation of Cicero's meticulous emblematic style. It is still popular as Cicero?s powerful commentary over a very momentous issue of growing age with explanatory notes is astounding. Timeless!

It's also full of quotes and something to think about in 2011, such as:



Give me a young man in whom there is something of the old, and an old man with something of the young: guided so, a man may grown old in body, but never in mind.  De Senectute: On Old Age, XI.



It's full of juicy thought provoking quotes. I would like to nominate both Ovid and Cicero  and we only have till  Saturday, who else would you like? I am unsure which edition of Aesop we're thinking of but I'll put one up and we can decide if he wins which one we'd like to do (or which ones we'd like to compare).  Laura Gibbs, in addition to having several Aesops out in print, one of which is very expensive, has a huge and inclusive website of Aesopica, so called where all the previous translations (AND ILLUSTRATIONS) are displayed. For that reason I'm linking to her 2008 version rather than the pricey 2009:

Here are a couple of reviews from Amazon and the description of the text:

"'Laura Gibbs has recently brought out a splendid translation with a very helpful introduction of the bulk of the fables in the Oxford World's Classics.'"

The fables of Aesop have become one of the most enduring traditions of European culture, ever since they were first written down nearly two millennia ago. Aesop was reputedly a tongue-tied slave who miraculously received the power of speech; from his legendary storytelling came the collections of prose and verse fables scattered throughout Greek and Roman literature. First published in English by Caxton in 1484, the fables and their morals continue to charm modern readers: who does not know the story of the tortoise and the hare, or the boy who cried wolf? This new translation is the first to represent all the main fable collections in ancient Latin and Greek, arranged according to the fables' contents and themes. It includes 600 fables, many of which come from sources never before translated into English.

Excellent reference for for the novice story teller. This book is cheat sheet for the complete Aesop's fables and also gives you the take home message. I grew up hearing Aesop and wanted my kids to have the same experience. This is definitely not for reading to the kids verbatim. I highly recommend it for the storyteller parent.

OK that's three new ones, what else should we add here before we put up the voting ballot?

[JudeS]

Wether or not anyone votes for Aesop I thought I would add to our "slush pile" of general knowledge with some interesting lines from a copy of Aesop's Fables that I found in a Librarysale of donated books. For fifty cents I bought a large (14 by 10 inchess) copy with breathtaking illustrations by a man named Charles Santore. In the intro the publisher writes as follows:

"Santore read an intro to an early twentieth century volume of AF by G.K.Chesterton."
"The moment I read Chesterton's explanation,I could visualize the majestic lion always occupying center stage: the sheep always doomeed, plodding on, never comprehending pawns in the game of life. They have no choice, they cannot be anything but themselves. Each animal- the wolf, the clever fox, the silly crow-represents and symbolizes some particular aspect of the human condition. Whatever  the situation, the animal's reaction is always predictable. That is true of all the creatures that populate the fables, and they never disappoint us. They are never more or less...........the reader or child listener can follow each creature from one situation to another and can better gain an understanding of the particular animal's role as a parody of human behavior."

I think of Gum's remark of disliking these tales as a child.  I wonder what about them was disturbing  for you, Gum?

[JoanK]

If we choose something long, like Ovid, perhaps we could do selections from it.

[kidsal]

We did "Fairy Tales and Their Tellers" in August.  So sort of covered some of those ancient tales.

[Babi]

 Oh, my!  The list gets longer and choosing gets harder.  Perhaps I can narrow it down by seeing
how many of these tempting tales are available in my library.  That's always a motivator. 

[ginny]

Jude I loved your post!! What a treasure you have there, that book goes for $60!

Have you seen the Pinkney I think it's called? Absolutely spectacular illustrations. I loved the quote you put about the Santore!!

JoanK, yes we could do that in Ovid, particularly, since it's a lot of myths. We could begin at the beginning and read as far as we liked. (I doubt we'd get too far, we'd probably be entranced by Paradise Lost and The Inferno for starters...I think all of our selections will be that way. It will be a fascinating journey, you can see what  Gum posted, to explore  what has been done with the themes, the allusions,  in the ensuing 2,000 years and even today: but what a wonderful garden to wander IN!  Not to mention the background, and the different translations... wow! Very exciting possibilities here!

Sally, which ancient myths have become fairy tales? I am excited that you read in that book discussion, do you still have the book?  That's a derivative I would never have thought of which will be invaluable.  Proserpina maybe? Midas?

I notice in one of the reviews that the reader said you wouldn't read Aesop to children, you'd have to change it.

Babi, yes, I think we have an incredibly good slate,  and worthy of our first effort. I have a feeling any library system will have them all.  Most of them also are online free.

Jane will have the ballot ready for Saturday morning. So we have today and tomorrow to add anything to it we like.

[Lucylibr]

Is it alright to nominate by Stacy Schiff, Cleopatra: A Life, or is that to be avoided because it is a presnt day work?  Whatever is chosen, I am going to try to read, but I don't promise that I will have time to keep up.  For those who don't know me, I am a Latin student living by the beach on the outskirts of New York City.

[JoanR]

With 10 great nominations already up on the slate, I don't think that I would add another - maybe after we've read all of those already there!  And we will, won't we?  I was thinking that we could take them up in the order of number of votes received until we exhaust the list, each nomination being worthy of a discussion.  Several of them, if discussed in entirety would take more than a month to do, but if we limited ourselves to sections of the longer works we should accomplish the whole slate in a year - rather like an overview.  Then we could go back and take up a whole work for as long as necessary.
  Just an idea!  Does this sound totally goofy?

[BarbStAubrey]

sounds great to me - a smorgasbord or buffet that introduces these major works so that we can later decide what author we want to live with for a year.

[ginny]

Lucy, welcome, welcome! I agree we should read the Schiff, isn't it good?  But the books for this particular group need to be written by somebody who lived  2000 years or so ago. Maybe as we progress we'll feel the need to read biographies, too, the Everitt Cicero comes to mind.  If we end up reading anything of the Republic however, the Schiff, Everitt and of course Goldsworthy will be a rich mine.  I like your attitude.

Joan I like your idea, too. And I see Barbara agrees, that's a good metaphor, Barbara. I like that.

In Joan's suggestion  we'd take them in the order voted and we'd end up doing all of them. Or parts of all of them.

What do the rest of you think? I like the idea that we'll hit them all according to your choices, the obvious backfire might be our taste might change, or we might get off on a tangent in the first one and want to follow IT up. AND there are a lot of works not up there.

What can we do about this aspect, and what do you all think about Joan's idea?

I do like the idea that if our own fave is not chosen we'll gamely read along till it's our turn.

Alternately we could take turns suggesting a book like a face to face book club, it would be XXX's month next month.

We don't have to take a year to read these, either. I'm not sure some of them lend themselves to bits but some of them definitely do.

Are there any of them we want to specify now we must read the entire thing of? We would never get thru Plutarch. hahahaa

[bookad]

so far I feel like a stranger in a strange land....have been lurking enjoying the postings and all the chatter
sounds like I have really been missing something and previous never found an interest in this area...but you guys are intriguing my curiosity

the fables of Aesop's sound interesting, mainly as I can relate to them

would it be of value to begin with something in between a complicated piece and relatively med to easy piece....to allow those of us, if any beside me who have next to nil previous reading of this area something just to wet our feet, then go for the 'gusto'

-or how can I find ways of keeping up or learning from the 'learned' segment of our group?

I really feel out of my element.

so I really choose not to vote...feeling you guys better able to make this choice....

Deb

[Gumtree]

Omigosh! I had to take the best part of this week off to deal with health issues and I come back to find all this new 'stuff' nominated and it's almost time to start thinking hard about the vote................

but if we limited ourselves to sections of the longer works we should accomplish the whole slate in a year

The whole slate in a year ? Yikes!  I'm defeated already. A timeline of a year to even attempt so much? - even when dealing with limited excerpts there  would be no time to follow up many of the issues raised or to fully absorb the knowledge brought to the table by other posters - - and more importantly, wouldn't a year-long discussion be a rather a lot to ask of our discussion leaders.

 It's rather a lot to commit a full year to the project, I'd rather read one - take a break - read another - and so on. I think on balance I would really favour an in depth study of one of the pieces - the whole or in part - even though the whole might take more than one month.

I'm sure that as we read our views and desires will change so that our first vote may not be indicative of what we might want once we have started on this journey -our personal Odyssey  and have become better acquainted with the ancients -

I had been thinking about Cicero but he seems to have written so much I wouldn't have known where to start. His On Old Age seems a pertinent choice. I'd like to read a biography  of him too - Hasn't Robert Harris written something on his life - a trilogy I think.

The Ovid is appealing especially in that we could easily decide to read just parts - I'd need to be guided as to what parts may be the best to start with. - and that would apply to any of the pieces - if we read only a selection from a work how do we choose it?

[Babi]

 I see "Paradise Lost" and "Inferno" and I'm thining Milton and
Dante and GINNY is talking about Ovid. Ovid had stories with those
titles?  I thought wrote love poems. I love this place; I keep
learning how ignorant I am.

 An overview sounds like a very practical approach, JOANR. There
is so much material; people spend years studying this material.
GUM, don't think of it as a commitment to a year of study. Think
of it as different books being on offer over the year, which you
can pick and choose as you like.

[Mippy]

Just a  comment on Cleopatra by Stacy Schiff, which I finished last month.  It is interesting, but would probably be a better fit for some other area, perhaps the non-fiction discussion.

I'm a little surprised to see the book remaining on the best seller list, since it was, IMHO, informative but not that outstanding.   I'm currently in the middle of A. Goldsworthy's Anthony and Cleopatra, which is more dry, but is a more inclusive treatment of Roman history and the very exciting life of Anthony.   
                                                                                       
I really like the idea of doing many of these nominations, Ginny!   Cicero and Plutarch are my top of choices!

[pedln]

so far I feel like a stranger in a strange land....have been lurking enjoying the postings and all the chatter
sounds like I have really been missing something and previous never found an interest in this area...but you guys are intriguing my curiosity .     .   . I really feel out of my element.

Deb, you are a member of a very large club, certainly not alone in your feelings.  I understand what you’re saying – “They are so profound and I am so mundane.”  Not really true.  Like you, I paid little attention to writings in this area, and even now, after being in the Latin classes here, while I know more than I did earlier, am still not well-versed in classic literature.  Never read the Illiad, never read the Odyssey, although I have learned that Penelope was true to her man Ulysses.  The other day, before translating “Damon and Pythias,” I was thinking it was going to be about Icarus.  You know – three syllables, the last one ending in “us” or “as.”  So don’t feel bad. You are not alone.  But do vote, Deb.

I’m not nominating anything, and will probably vote for Ovid.  Reading selections of the myths in English sounds very appealing.  Also, a play would be nice, so Antigone (of whom I know nothing) would also be a choice.

[PatH]

Deb, whether or not you vote, I hope you will try whatever is selected.  We're none of us experts here--we all learn from each other.  That's what the discussions are all about.

[Roxania]

This list of titles reminds me of the old potato chip add--"Bet you can't read just one!"  I'm game for any of them.

I've been enjoying the "History of Rome" podcast, though, so I'll probably vote for Plutarch.  http://www.learnoutloud.com/Podcast-Directory/History/European-History/The-History-of-Rome-Podcast/25263

[BarbStAubrey]

 Yes, Deb - I am another who has not read any of these works except as excerpts here and there - a couple of them I have read as a story in English and so I kinda know what to expect but an actual translation I have not read. I feel that even reading the couple as a story I missed so much since I  had no one who know the classics, who could alert me to the symbolism or history or metaphors to guide me and so if this discussion turns out to be true to form it will be like one big classroom .

I remember way back when SeniorNet was in its hay day and where I read many of the greats there were a few authors I always assumed were deeper than my ability - James Joyce being one of them - well JoanP was the discussion leader for one of the most memorable discussions to me of Joyce's A Portrait of a Young Man - we lost many along the way but a few of us saw it through to the end and I enjoyed every minute - some of the research we did at the time to bring to life the story, the back story, the history on and on stays with me to this day. Best of all, reading it got me over the  hump so that today there are few authors I will not tackle.

I would still not tackle alone Joyce's Ulysses and I sure am looking forward to this guidance with the ancients - and one day I hope we could tackle something like Paradise lost, another phase of English Lit [Medieval and Renaissance authors] that I am not confident to read alone.

So Deb I hope you stick along with us - it always amazed me how what seemed the silliest question opened a can of worms that was so insightful it took someone having no background about the book and the times to question what we are reading.

[ginny]

Well the sun is slowly setting in the west and our first ever Classic  Book Club Nominations are drawing to a close with a slate of 10 anybody would be proud to claim!

In the morning if you'll check by, you'll find the ballot and I hope you will vote.

What great points brought up here as usual, I'm not the least surprised, this is a super group. Feel free to say anything you like, after all, if you don't say it our ESP will not allow us to know. Mine won't, anyway.

First, Gum, I think Joan was suggesting that we, even tho we can't do them all first, do all of them sometime, in the order that they got votes. But not in a year. And not on a schedule.  That way somebody disappointed their choice didn't win will feel content that it will be done, someday.

I'm in agreement with your  idea of doing the first one and taking a break and then doing the next one as you suggest. (I hope there will be a "next one.)" ...what that next one might  BE we'll have to decide. One of these 10? I agree with Mippy any of them would be super. Or perhaps a new one our current reading inspires us to want to read.

(I didn't know Robert Harris had written a novel about Cicero!! You are right!  He'll have to go some to beat Everitt),  has anybody read it?

Once we HAVE the book chosen, then we can decide how long, what parts or all  of it, and lots of other things, it will go entirely on what the group here wants. This is definitely a group endeavor and will depend on you all.

bookad (Deb), I appreciate your thoughts here, and I love the way you express yourself. Not to worry,  you're perfect just as you are.  Hopefully nobody will have read whatever we choose, that's one reason for these discussions,  as PatH says. And as she also says we learn from each other, that's what makes it so rich, the sharing of ideas and experiences as they relate to the book.

We're all from different parts of the country and world and have different points of view, but  I think you've hit the nail on the head actually with: mainly as I can relate to them.

That's the whole point, so there you go already, getting right to the crux!    How these people 2000+ years ago are like us, and if they have anything to say to us in 2010.  What we can relate to. We'll find out the 15th of February. You can see you're in great company here, many have no background in classical literature as Pedln says but everybody has a curiosity and enthusiasm and if one can read English that's all you need, our group will do the rest! I can't wait, what a spectacular, and NICE group of people. Fun to read with and bounce ideas off. What more can you want?

With everybody bringing something to the table,  we'll have a feast indeed!

Roxania is right, or I hope she is, anyway: you can't stop at just one! hahaha I HOPE it will become a series, we'll depend on you all for that. What an interesting link, Roxania!  A weekly podcast on Roman history, my goodness! Is it good? I see the reviews are 5 star. The internet is absolutely overflowing with SUCH interesting stuff!

Babi, Milton and Dante were influenced by what they read in Ovid, his Metamorphoses begins with the creation of the world.  Like Barbara, someday I'd like to read Paradise Lost on SeniorLearn, and I hope when we do there's somebody in the discussion with more knowledge of it than I have. hahahaa

We're on our own Odyssey here, what fun it will be. (It's already fun just reading your comments!) I think we're in super company here and each of us will bring something different, a different point of view or idea or research or who KNOWS what  to the table, what fun.

And we've room for MANY more, so sign in please and vote, we're saving a chair next to the fire (or fridge in Gum's case) just for you!

Tomorrow's the day, I hope everybody will vote and join right in with us once the first selection is announced.

[Frybabe]

Harris's novel is Imperium, and it is written through the eyes of Tiro. I think I read it, I think. It's been a while. I also have Everitt's Cicero. After reading that, I couldn't make up my mind if I like Cicero, the man, or not. He certainly was tenacious in persuing his opponents, but he was also a fence switcher. So, it often depended on the way the political winds were blowing as to who his opponents were. He apparently was a constant talker, so I can understand why, when he was finally done in, that she (forget who at the moment, a Cattiline perhaps?) had his tongue cut out so he could never speak again.

[bookad]

Pedin, Pat H., Barb, Ginny
thank you for your kind words....I am determined to follow the group into this new regieme-- for me ...looking forward to this new world of learning
Deb

[ALF43]

DEB- I really feel out of my element.

so I really choose not to vote...feeling you guys better able to make this choice....

Welcome to my world Deb.  Some folks here are experts, others of us, "don't have a clue."  Myself, I feel dumber than a box of hammers when it comes to choosing one classic or the other.  We can not all be well versed in everything so I have always enjoyed sitting back and letting the people that know take me on a wonderful ride.  I always learn something and as apprenticed as I am my knowledge of the classics, no one has ever made me feel my ignorance.  There are wonderful, accomplished people here to answer questions, take your interest at heart and guide you.  
Give it a shot, I'm going to follow. (We can always hide in the back row.  Yeah, right, like Ginny would allow us to do that trick.)

[Babi]

 Hmm,..I'm in too early.  Voting box not open yet.  I shall return! Is
my eagerness showing? 

[ginny]

YAY for you and your eagerness!

What a beautiful post, Andrea!

Don't withhold a vote, you may be sorry, vote now for YOUR fave!


Ta DA! Jane has prepared this super ballot in alphabetical order, vote for one:

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/7LV3VLC

Very exciting, I'm off to find a blinking Vote NOW sign! hahahaa What will win? What will we read first? So exciting!

[Gumtree]

Vote for ONE -  I've got it down to three - I'll have to sleep on it one more time.

[ginny]

I may never sleep again, just found out I have been an Aquarius which suits me to a T all these years and am now a Capricorn...isn't that a goat? They blabber on about 200 +-  BC and how this tilting on the axis was first noticed, why didn't they adjust it then?

[BarbStAubrey]

Ah the sure footed Capricorn goat that can navigate frighteningly steep mountain gorges on rocky narrow paths - what courage, what perseverance, what a steady influence to guide the assent of great heights - plus - Charlie Rose is a Capricorn and that is a true Renaissance man to have as a brother in arms so to speak  - cheers - the realization may rock your identity but oh the wonder that is you...

[ginny]

hahaha BAAAA, oh the loss of the Age of Aquarius!  I'm sure they're wrong, I appreciate the positive slant, however.

[BarbStAubrey]

 

[rosemarykaye]

I have voted!

Thanks Ginny for organising this - I'll really be happy to read any of the nominations.

Rosemary

[BarbStAubrey]

Huh - looks like I am in the change as well from an Aquarian to a Capricorn. Huge shifts hmmm but this gal is not so sure there is the kind of personality shift that would be matching these shifts...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/14/AR2011011403094.html

[rosemarykaye]

PS - I would also be interested in doing Paradise Lost one day (I appreciate it doesn't qualify for this Club) - I did it at university many years ago but was v lazy and never researched all the political background, etc - now of course I wish I hadn't wasted so much time.  Those days of wine and roses, they are not long (Jane in Jane and Prudence, Barbara Pym - though I think she is quoting someone else and I really should know whom  )

Rosemary

[Roxania]

Looking forward to seeing the result--any of them will do!

Robert Harris has done two novels about Cicero--"Imperium," followed by "Conspirata," which gets us through the Catiline conspiracy.  I hope he does another one to finish Cicero off.

I'm well over halfway through Everitt's "Augustus," and we've only just now finished off Antony and Cleopatra.  I have to say, I'd be willing to trade a bit of our knowledge of Roman military history for a bit more knowledge about everything else.  But Everitt writes better than a lot of historians, and he has found a lot of interesting details.

I may pass on Schiff's "Cleopatra."  It hasn't been that many years since I did Margaret George's novel, and it sounds like Schiff's approach is rather novelistic.  I wish somebody would do more books on Roman women.  Agrippina would be interesting--the one who was married to Germanicus.

[Babi]

  There's probably not a great deal of factual data available on women
in Roman history.  The historians tended to pretty much ignore them.
Unless, of course, they were ruling queens like Cleopatra.  I read one
bit about a city that was exceptionally generous to the army that
rescued them.  The historian said that was because they did not want it
said that they did less than the woman who ruled a city near them. The
historian never bothered to identify the woman or the other city.

[roshanarose]

babi - one of my fave Queens during Roman Times was Queen Zenobia of Palmyra.  She was quite a woman, but ultimately the might of the Roman Empire crushed her.  I had a beautiful Abyssinian cat who I named Zenobia in honour of this extraprdinary woman.

[Babi]

 The sad,..or aggravating...thing is that there are bound to have been so
many remarkable women that we will never know about.  There's no
use in crying over what can't be helped, though.  I'm glad Zenobia made
it through despite the morass of masculine snobbishness.

[sandyrose]

Deb and Alf....save a seat for me in the back row please.

I stumbled on this classics book club about a week ago and have been thinking and thinking---can I do this???  Seems way over my head...but after reading your posts I must give it a try.