Classics Book Club, The

[Babi]

  
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June 18-----Book  XIX:  Revelations and a Dream    

Discussion Schedule:

June 18: Book 19
June 23: Book 20
June 28: Book 21
July 2:  Book 22
July 7: Book 23
July 12: Book 24

Odysseus recognized by his nurse
Attic red figure skyphos
c. 450 BC
Museo Civico, Chiusi

Odysseus recognised by Eurykleia
Gustave Boulanger
1849
Ecole nationale supérieure des Beaux-arts, Paris

  

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  

Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
Map of the  Voyages of Odysseus
Map of Voyages in order
Map of Stops Numbered
Our Map Showing Place Names in the Odyssey

Odysseus recognised by Eurykleia
Roman relief
c. 25 AD

Ah, yes. Traveling along dusty roads, usually in sandals, did make
 foot washing a thoughtful bit of hospitality. You'll recall they
were still doing that in the time of Christ. That ritual may not have
disappeared until paved roads came in.
 Oh, thanks, GINNY, for that information about women's rights in 8th
century Athens.  Lord, I'm so glad I'm living today!
 I would love to see a translation of that "training of a Greek
housewife, DANA.  I don't suppose you know where I can find one, since
you are translating it yourself?  I'll check into the writings of
Xenophon. It does seem apparent that within their own household women
still had a great deal of influence and were able to tease their own
husbands.

[Dana]

Babi, if you look up Oeconomicus and follow the wikipedia link, at the bottom of that there is a link to the English translation by HG Dakyns.  You are looking for books 7 thru 10.

[JoanK]

GINNY: great pictures.

This whole scene between two beggars is odd. But I guess it wouldn't be odd if each beggar had his own "territory" and defended it against interlopers.

On to the next chapter tomorrow.

[Babi]

 Thanks for that referral, DANA. I'll look that up.

 So, today we start on Book XVIX.  In my translation it is called Recognition and Dreams

   Penelope is telling the stranger her tactics and evasions through the years.  All this time, I had thought she wove a shroud for her husband, fearing him dead.  It even occurred to me that if he never returned, dead of alive, she would have no use for that shroud.  Now I learn, finally, that the shroud was for Laertes,  her father-in-law.   Fortunately for her scheme, he
continued to live in good health while she spun out his shroud-weaving as long as she could.

       Now, she says, she has run out of strength to carry on the resistance.  “...my parents urge it [marriage] upon me, and my son will not stand by while they eat up his property.  He comprehends it, being a man full grown, able to oversee the kind of house Zeus would endow with honor.”   

   Unfortunately, P insists the stranger tell her about his background and family.  Not yet ready to reveal who he is, he begins spinning another one of his whoppers.   Now, lo, he is a grandson of King Minos.  (I don’t remember ever reading before that Minos was received every year by Zeus in private council.   Is this found elsewhere, or only in Homer?  I’ll check it out.)

[ginny]

That's a good point, Joan. It WAS odd. Perhaps it is there to show....? That his reception even from a beggar at court was rough. He's been treated very badly by all in this house, so the laws of hospitality are definitely broken.

Babi, I agree:

Penelope is telling the stranger her tactics and evasions through the years.  All this time, I had thought she wove a shroud for her husband, fearing him dead.  It even occurred to me that if he never returned, dead of alive, she would have no use for that shroud.  Now I learn, finally, that the shroud was for Laertes,  her father-in-law.   Fortunately for her scheme, he continued to live in good health while she spun out his shroud-weaving as long as she could.

NOW we get the entire story from Penelope's side!!  Her worries, what's going on, finally we find out!  I have to idly wonder why we couldn't have been told this in the beginning! Would it have made any difference to us? Not knowing  sure kept up the willing suspension of disbelief, at least in me. I didn't really know what was going on. But for the ancients this bit was probably redundant, they would have possibly? known all this. So we have to ask: why now?

I found 19 fascinating, what were YOUR reactions to it?

The scar! He's recognized! So he grabs her by the throat and threatens to kill her, too if she reveals him. I think this sort of behavior is a premonition of the violence to come, the entire chapter keeps shrieking "O will return and will wreak vengeance."

One problem I've always had with this scene is why does Penelope not recognize his voice?  I know he's disguised in person, has Athene also changed the timbre of his voice? We can see she's made P's mind wander so she does not catch this or that.

Would YOU recognize your own husband's voice after 20 years, whether or not you could see him? Feet are another matter entirely. ahahaha I don't think anybody would recognize MY feet. I'm not sure I would, but a voice?

I found this book fascinating! I hope we're all here and haven't fallen like some of O's crew, by the wayside? It would be such a shame to make it THIS far and not get to see the end!

The bits about the weapons being gathered, fascinating. The description of the palace and the  bits about the household little things, like when the women are taking away all the food and Penelope comes out and sits down:

They emptied the braziers, scattering the embers
Onto the floor, and then stocked  them up
With loads of fresh wood for warmth and light. (somewhere around 65-70)

They emptied the embers, the coals, on to the FLOOR? I'm trying to visualize this. The FLOOR must have been...what material?   Gosh in one fell swoop or a little description from words, we're back to 1250 BC and what they did with fire embers, pretty magical.

 This is an absolutely marvelous chapter in which we learn that doors  to the great hall CAN be locked (31 in Lombardo),  and we even have the furniture described (sounds very sumptuous), all is glittering in the torches, what a picture.

Penelope says she will test HIM, and now we have a second test or contest proposed. Apparently in the morning she must choose a suitor at last and whoever can string the great bow and shoot thru all 12 curved axes, I think we have a painting of that somewhere) will win.

What excitement.

That stringing the bow thing is no slight feat. My husband has a huge bow, I've now forgotten the name of it, but to actually bend it so that you could put the bowstring on the bottom or top (I no longer remember how it's done) takes incredible strength. I wish I could think of the name of the type of bow, but certainly not every person could do it. This is kind of a Robin Hood type of thing coming up, isn't it?  Not only does the archer have to be strong enough to bend the thing he has to be an excellent shot!

Yes O tells another whopper but he tries not to,  and she forces it. What relevance does it have at all, I wonder? This is apparently the 4th version of this Kretan tale and the differences are important but who is keeping track of them? I tend, I admit, to skim over them, maybe I should not?  Anybody see anything significant here?



Hexter makes some comments on the repetition, for a moment I was afraid I had read too far in the past. He says this may be a marker of a new epidode or movement, that in 16 he was planning but here he's executing. And early editors made this the start of a new book because right before that they were going to sleep.

But there's more. When I read this book I wondered if it constituted some sort of climax for Penelope or something. Hexter says the two lines 62 and 63 repeat the first two lines of the book exactly 1-2, and 51-52, and this is "the classic closure for a 'ring,' making this a self contained but not therefore necessarily dispensable, compositional building block."

Homer leaves no doubt here that O is wily, he keeps repeating what Hexter says in Greek is "polymetis," which means "the master improvisor, the great tactician, the great master of invention."

And what would a new chapter be without some great (diffy) discussion questions?

Here are some from Creighton U:

1. Why does Odysseus withhold his identity from Penelope? Does he trust her?

2. Pay extremely close attention to the scenes when Eurykleia recognizes Odysseus? What gives him away? Follow very closely the story of Odysseus' baptism by his grandfather Autolycus and of the boar hunt on the slopes of Mount Parnassus.

What is the symbolic significance of these events in reference to the determination and shaping of Odysseus' character while he was still a very young boy?



3. Compare the passages describing the boar's hideout (lines 511-520) to those describing the shelter of Odysseus when he first arrives to Phaeacia (Book 5, lines 500-510). What are the implications of the similarities?

4.  Who decides to set up the contest of the bow to find a new husband for Penelope? What does that decision imply about her fidelity to Odysseus?


OOO those are good questions! But let's add #5:

5. Why does Penelope not recognize Odysseus's voice? Would you know your husband's voice after 20 years?

Off to find some super illustrations!

and #6:

6. Why do we finally hear the background of Penelope's story NOW?

[Dana]

One thing I have always wondered about but kept forgetting to write here, is why do you think Laertes is not living with Penelope?  In those households in those days the old always lived with the young to be looked after if they needed it, and in this case to be a support to penelope.  Doesn't make sense to me at all.  Why wd laertes be stuck out in the country on his own, especially after his wife died........maybe they didn't get on    (P. and him)

[Frybabe]

I've always wondered about Laertes too, Dana. Doesn't make sense, does it.

I am looking forward to reading this chapter carefully. I had always thought that it was O that suggested to P that she pretend she was finally getting tired of waiting for O and to use the bow test so that he could prove to P and the soon to be departed suitors who he truly was.

[mabel1015j]

I'm not reading the book right now, but am lurking and enjoying your comments. Four decades ago i was teaching a humanities course to 10th graders in Harrisburg, Pa and we, of course, used The Odyssey. You're bringing back pleasant memories.

It was a course we designed - a team taught course based on my world cultures class and the other lead teacher was the English teacher who determined we would only use literature FROM the time/culture not ABOUT the time/culture. Another member of the team was the art teacher who conducted tours in the summer time to all parts of the world and had photos of everything. We also used a good movie of the story, but i don't remember where that came from. I think it was a Scholastic film.

Jean 

[JoanK]

JEAN: as usual, I wish I could have taken your course!

Would I recognize my husbands voice after 20 years? Of course, it would have changed! I think I would recognize a similiarity, but not think that it was him necessarily.

[roshanarose]

Ginny - I am sorry I haven't been contributing as much as I would have liked.  My SIL has been sick for some time and yesterday had to go to hospital for cardiovascular tests.  He has acquired an irregular heart beat. 

I also, am not too well.  I hope to be having blood tests on Monday or Tuesday, and seeing the doc on probably Thursday for Friday.  Just general lethargy and no interest in doing much of anything.

[ginny]

RoshanaRose, I'm so sorry to hear that! I hope you feel better soon. Hopefully you're only  run down and it can be put right quickly.  I also hope your SIL will be OK!! Lots of things for you to be thinking about there. We're looking forward to your being back with us!

Dana, and Frybabe, me, too, on the Laertes thing, especially since it appears as we've read that  O asked her to take care of his father and mother. Wonder what he meant by "take care?"  Perhaps Laertes  himself insisted on moving out so as to give his son the palace. I have no idea. Maybe somebody could find this bit out.  I'm not sure a palace could have two regnant kings. I simply don't  know.

Jean, that sounds like an event! Those old Scholastic things (some of them) were wonderful. There was a super one on Julius Caesar and the crossing of the Rubicon, I can still recite parts of it, "Never alone, my lord." Badly acted, black and white, but it really gave a great picture of what it was supposed to. I wonder what happened to it. It was on 16mm.

JoanK,. oh I would.Definitely. My husband has quite a distinctive voice, and there's no change in it that I can see in 44 years. Yes I would definitely know that voice if it came out of an antelope. I wonder, myself, as I read this exchange between them, if she doesn't suspect a bit.

I also wonder if her wanting to "test" is here to show her a fit partner for O, who, of course, seems to see everything as needing a wily response.

So why, one wonders, could he not tell her who he was? He's told T!!! So why not her? What do you all think?  Does he not trust her? Does he not trust her to keep silent? What does this not telling her who he is and this long silly story ( how is it different) mean?

I wonder what he secretly thinks of the contest: it seems he came in the nick of time, it seems TOMORROW she'll choose , finally, a husband: whoever can string that bow and shoot thru the axes. That must give him pause, maybe that's why he keeps saying O is coming, etc.

What, in short, is he waiting for? You'd think he'd need her help like that of T or maybe he......

[Babi]

"One problem I've always had with this scene is why does Penelope not recognize his voice?"

  I wondered that, too, GINNY. But it has been twenty years. Odysseus is much older, his voice must certainly be rougher.  Voices do change over the years, but those we hear daily we don't notice. Add to that the changes Athena made in his appearance, and it's reasonable Penelope would not suspect.
  The floors..certainly not wood. In a poorer home, probably beaten
earth. In a rich man's home, possibly marble.  At least, stone. There
must have been plenty of stone available on that rocky island.

   The proposed archery contest is clever. That would eliminate a lot
of suitors right there. Penelope may be hoping no one can shoot through
12 curved axes. I wouldn't have thought it at all possible.

[JoanK]

Here is another echo of the Bible: Penelope line 651, Lombardo has

"For every thing there is a season, and a time
For all we do on the life-giving earth"

the Bible: King James version:

"for everything there is a season
And a time for every purpose under heaven."

Is this Lombardo's translation, making it so close? What do the other versions have?

GINNY: " I wonder, myself, as I read this exchange between them, if she doesn't suspect a bit." I thought that too.

[Dana]

I don't think O trusts P completely so he is testing her reactions to his news that he (as the beggar) has heard that O will be home very soon. Does she really want him?  All the time tho, her grief and love for O shine thru, so I guess he must have been happy about that. However he has got his plan of action worked out and I guess it involves her not knowing.  But she does not believe that O is coming and now that T is grown up the time has come for her to leave with a suitor to the suitor's place it sounds like, leaving the palace for T. ( Which is not what I had understood earlier.  I had thought the winning suitor would take over the palace and usurp T.  Maybe now T. is grown up that is less likely to happen?)  Anyway, she obviously likes this guy (the beggar) and in his wiley way O has encouraged this liking by making himself as beggar a fit person for her liking--the son of a king.  I think she does unconsciously/half consciously know that he is Odysseus---there is one point where she says:

Come here,stand by me, faithful Eurycleia,
and bathe, bathe your master.  I almost said
for they are of an age........

You know how you can know and not know something at the same time--that's her state.  However a part of her  doesn't know and as she's a cautious, untrusting, wiley woman, just like O is a man,  she's going to test him out in the same way he does her.
 I thought Hechter's point was funny, that all the wiley, cautious epithets applied to Odysseus are always translated, but throughout history all the similar epithets applied to Penelope tend not to be!!  Sexism in translation!!

I think Homer's expression of how the mind works, eg here that you can know and not know something simultaniously, and all the other examples thu the poem, often expressed in a very few words, are what make it a masterpiece for me, along with his descriptions of nature.

[JoanK]

DANA: that was the passage I was looking for! So P is seen as wiley and cautious, too? Sexism in translation, why am I not surprised?

[Frybabe]

Ok, so let me get this straight. O in disguise tells P that O is on his way home? P believes that the beggar (O) is describing O. Does it give her hope? Is she afraid to believe after all these years he could really be there soon? If I were P and someone came up to me and described O and said he will be home soon, what would I do? If I were afraid I might not recognize him after 20yrs., I might just devise a test that I knew no one but him would pass. I don't see the point of the bow test if she absolutely believed he would not be back. I'd just pick the guy with the best financial offer.

When is T of age to inherit the property (if one assumes O is dead)? Is P in effect regent until then?  If T were of age to take control, then the best the suitors could hope for would be a large dowry. They failed to kill T, so getting their hands on the whole enchilada is out.

BTW, silly question about Laertes: How come, if he is still alive, he isn't still the big cheese. Don't you inherit only on one's parent's death? Homer really doesn't explain Laertes very well does he. If I read the hunting scene (what I did read of it) it appears O had a sibling. What of him? Maybe O's property was a wedding gift and old L has much more. That still doesn't explain why L was not more helpful.

I am finding Pope a little difficult to slog through in these last few chapters. I sometimes lose track of who is talking.

[kidsal]

O needs secrecy for his plan to work.  Probably afraid Penelope won't be able to control her feelings and the suitors will somehow be warned. 
Is Laertes sick -- she was preparing a shroud for him?

[Babi]

 Can't help with that one, JOANK. I can't find a line 651; none of the books in my
translation seem to go that high.  Who is Penelope speaking to,and on what occasion.
Maybe I can find it that way.
 I have heard other biblical echoes in reading this book. Recall the mandate to treat
strangers well, as they might be angels? The same message of hospitality to the stranger.

  I have been thinking that the suitors had hoped to force a marriage before Telemachos
came of age, and claim the property with the marriage.  That would explain why they
became so persistent and heavy-handed as that time ran out. That is no longer possible,
so the suitors now plot to kill T.,  divide up his flocks and herds, and give the house
to whomever marries Penelope.  Sweet bunch of guys.

 The testing of Penelope.  I  think Athena wanted to establish, for Penelope’s sake and for Odysseus’ peace of mind,  that Penelope has indeed been true and loyal.  That does not
mean she does not sometimes despair.   I found these lines poignant, “We have no master quick to receive and furnish out a guest as Lord Odysseus was.        Or did I dream him?  After 20 years of coping,  that brief time with Odysseus must sometimes seem unreal, a fantasy, a dream.
 

  As for Laertes, I gathered he was simply old, tired, and wanted to leave all the hassle
to the younger generation. He has lost his wife and fears he will never see Odysseus again.
I feel certain that if Telemachos were to go to him for refuge, for example, that he
would be welcome and safe with his grandfather, but that the old man is not up to a fight.

[ginny]

That's logical on Laertes, Babi, and if he is quite old and worn out, it might explain why T has NOT gone to him. I, being of no youth myself, am going to be interested to see if he plays any part at all at the conclusion.

  The proposed archery contest is clever. That would eliminate a lot
of suitors right there. Penelope may be hoping no one can shoot through
12 curved axes. I wouldn't have thought it at all possible.

Oh I hadn't thought of that! Suppose nobody gets it? Then it's their fault and she doesn't have to marry any of them! Looks like she's a match for O in smartness!

On the voice, JoanK, it may be that some people have more distinctive voices than others. Why am I thinking about the RCA old commercial with the dog and the speaker record player (what WAS that thing?) His Master's Voice? hahahaa

Dana, such good points on O and the dual testing going on. You'd think that HE at least would recognize that SHE has not married ergo she's waiting for him?

Loved this one: I think Homer's expression of how the mind works, eg here that you can know and not know something simultaneously, and all the other examples thu the poem, often expressed in a very few words, are what make it a masterpiece for me, along with his descriptions of nature.


Good points, Sally, on the need for secrecy. I guess if Laertes is really old it's not impossible that he will die and he'll need a nice shroud. Maybe they made these long in advance? I dunno.

Frybabe, I BET Pope is difficult here.  I am not remembering anything of a brother to O, did the rest of you pick that up? Ok, so let me get this straight. O in disguise tells P that O is on his way home? P believes that the beggar (O) is describing O. Does it give her hope? Is she afraid to believe after all these years he could really be there soon? If I were P and someone came up to me and described O and said he will be home soon, what would I do? If I were afraid I might not recognize him after 20yrs., I might just devise a test that I knew no one but him would pass. I don't see the point of the bow test if she absolutely believed he would not be back. I'd just pick the guy with the best financial offer.

GOOD points! I am thinking she doesn't want to pick ANY of them!  And she thinks nobody can string that bow much less shoot it through.

Murray here adds a note:

We are to understand, first, that in a trench dug in the earth of the courtyard....twelve aces were set up in a row, their appearance suggesting the vertical props which supported the hull of a ship in the process of being built. Secondly, the metal heads of the axes, from which the handles were removed, were set in the ends of their handles by their bits, leaving the eyes, or handle holes, exposed. Lastly an expert archer could shoot an arrow through all twelve  holes, the axes being carefully placed in line, as through an interrupted tube.

When is T of age to inherit the property (if one assumes O is dead)? Is P in effect regent until then?  If T were of age to take control, then the best the suitors could hope for would be a large dowry. They failed to kill T, so getting their hands on the whole enchilada is out.

These are good points.  I don't know, myself. I guess for me this is what makes it fascinating? Homer is writing along or reciting along assuming everybody knows whereof he speaks but due to the age of this thing, nobody knows. What does Spark Notes or any other commentary say, if THEY know, that is? Some things of the ancients are not fully known by anybody. Let's all see what we can find out. I am loving the sort of feeling that we've been dropped there in a time capsule and we're trying to figure out what's happening by our own standards.

Joan K, good catch on the Biblical parallels. What do the rest of you have?  The time for all seasons bit is at the very end, somewhere in Murray around line 592: where she says if you could sit here with me ...the immortals have appointed a proper time for each thing upon the grain-giving earth. That's what Murray has her saying.

Ok next in this chapter, and it's HUGE, is the DREAM!!

Talk about Angry Birds App! hahahaha

O says "No one will escape death's black birds."

She has a dream about an eagle and her 20 geese. The eagle kills them all and they "lie strewn through the hall."  And the eagle interprets his own dream as being O, and the suitors are the geese. The foreshadowing here would be clear to a dog.

But then we have the additional interpretation by O,  who is thinking fast:

Another slant. Odysseus himself has shown you
How he will finish this business. The suitors' doom
Is clear. Not one will escape death's black birds.


Er...how is this ANOTHER slant?

??

And then P comes out with the famous Gate of Horn and the Gate of Ivory.

Now do we all know what these are and where they occur usually and who made a lot of them? Why are they here?

Why does she say:

My strange dream, though,
Did not come from there. If it had,
It would have been welcome to me and my child.

Ok well if there are "two gates for dreams to drift through," and "My strange dream, though, did not come from there..." (Where? Which of the two is she talking about?) Then what is she saying?

At least O, the  Wily, is understandable. Maybe she's the smartest one in the pack and nobody knew it?

Why are the famous Gates of Horn and Gates of Ivory here at all and what is she talking about?

[Babi]

 O. brings up a point I’d wondered about myself.  Speaking to Athena, he says, “If by the will of Zeus and by your will I killed them all,  where could I go for safety?  Tell me that.”      Indeed!  These are fellow Akhaians and the princes or nobles of major houses from every island in that part of the world.  Killing them would surely bring on a manhunt of colossal proportions. 
 Athena simply insists that with her help he can defeat them all.   Another example  of the casual way  in which the ancient gods disposed of men’s lives. Not only will she and Zeus help him slay the suitors, they are fully prepared to kill any of their families who take offense and come after Odysseus.  Sheesh!

[Frybabe]

Okay, that was a little confusing. No, O did not have any siblings as far as I can tell on re-reading and researching. It was has maternal grandfather, Autolycus who had two daughters and a whole bunch of sons. A little bit of family history there, and not part of the boar hunt itself. The Ithacus named in the boar story must have been another name for O. Well, that is what happens when you read late and keep falling asleep on your reading.

Autolycus was an interesting character in his own right. Something of a master thief, stealing such things as Hermes helmet and a herd from Sisyphus. His daughter, Anticleia, was O's mom and Polymede was the mother of Jason of Argonaut fame.

[Dana]

Oh this is so interesting--gates of horn and ivory--I looked them up and wikipedia came thru--the play on words--I then looked up the original, just to make sure, and sure enough, there they are---kerawn and kraiousi---thru gates of horn dreams are fulfilled, and elephantos and elephairontai----thru gates of ivory dreams deceive, "a play on words which cannot be rendered in English."

[Dana]

In the Fitzgerald translation its clear she is saying her dream did not come by the gate of horn, ie it is false:

I doubt it came by horn my fearful dream--
too good to be true, that, for my son and me.

[JoanK]

GINNY: "Now do we all know what these are and where they occur usually and who made a lot of them?"

I don't! Tell us.

Good points on Laertes. I keep remembering that Hamlet's friend was named Laertes in Shakespeare. So I wonder if L didn't have more interesting part to play in another story than that of a sick old man. Otherwise, why name someone after him.

BABI: I double checked. It's line 651 in book 19.

The story of O and the boar is interesting. I assume we're supposed to see O as a boar coming out of his cave (the cave he stored his treasures in) to attack. Somehow the image doesn't work for me. What do you all think.

And what did you think of O grabbing the old woman by the throat and threatening to kill her when she recognized him!!! he went way down in my estimation with that one. Homer has her reproaching him, but he doesn't seem to care.         

[Dana]

The gates of horn and ivory are quoted by Vergil in the Aeneid but originate in the Greek play on words in the Odyssey.

[ginny]

Yikes! With all these thunderstorms daily I've lost a day somehow. We're to move on today to 20!! I'm not ready!

Great topics here this morning. Did O grab the maid's throat as Lombardo says or her mouth as in the heading, isn't that interesting? What do your sources say on that? I found that Roman relief in the heading quite interesting and human: whoops, don't say anything. But Lombardo has the throat!

What does Pope have Frybabe? I'm amazed you can get anything out of Pope!
Interesting on Autolycus!! I sort of skimmed over that one, since another new character at this point is overload!  At least for a modern ancient brain!


If  you all are  ready, do plow ahead with 20. I need 5 minutes of clear weather hahahaa

More when I can attend without satellite destroying clouds, what  a spring!

Good sleuthing on the Gates of Horn and Ivory being another play on words, and who else featured them,  Dana! How confusing they are, to me, anyway, especially in Virgil's Aeneid where they have a more prominent part.  One wonders why "horn" would be false, one idly wonders. How creative they were!

I've found an article by Benjamin Haller titled The Gates of Horn and Ivory in Odyssey 19: Penelope's Call for Deeds, Not Words which explains the Gates of Horn and Ivory in ways I would never have imagined, he cites ancient and modern scholars, it's quite surprising. I've just gotten it from JSTOR and will need time when the grandbaby is gone to absorb it but you will be electrified, who knew?

Meanshile on this subject the OCCL says Dreams are frequently personified in Greek and Latin literature: according to Hesiod, they are the daughters of Night. In Homer's Odyssey (24.12) they live beyond Oceanus, near the gates of the sun. Later poets wrote of a god of dreams, Morpheus (hence morphia, etc., ) who made human shapes (morphai) appear to dreamers. Virgil says (in Aeneid 6, 893) that the spirits of the dead send dreams to men from the Underworld, those which are true through a gate of horn, false dreams through a gate of ivory. He thus adapts what Homer says, very similarly, in Odyssey 19, 562.)

I went to Wikipedia also because I thought for some reason that Dante used them or maybe Milton but according to them (and who knows) not, these are the authors listed:

English writing

The gates of horn and ivory appear in the following notable English written works:

    Edmund Spenser's epic poem "The Faery Queene" (1590, English) in book 1, stanzas XL and XLIV, in reference to a false dream being brought to the hero (Prince Arthur/the Knight of the Red Crosse).
    E. M. Forster's short story The Other Side of the Hedge. The reference from Forster comes when the main character of the story observes the two gates; The Other Side of the Hedge is usually read as a metaphor of death and Heaven.
    T.S. Eliot's poem "Sweeney Among the Nightingales," the line "And Sweeney guards the horned gate" is likewise a reference to this image.[11]
    Eliot's poem Ash-Wednesday. The lines "And the blind eye creates / The empty forms between the ivory gates" similarly refer to this concept.
    H. P. Lovecraft's story, "The Doom that Came to Sarnath," as a set of magnificent ivory gates, carved from one piece of ivory stood at the entrance of a city of vain humans, which seems to be taken from Lord Dunsany's story "The Idle Days on the Yann". It is also mentioned as a passage to the realm of hallucinations in Lovecraft's "Celephaïs."
    Ursula K. Le Guin's novel A Wizard of Earthsea
    Neil Gaiman's comic book series The Sandman
    Robert Holdstock's novel Gate of Ivory, Gate of Horn. In the Holdstock novel, the main character grapples with a traumatic event that has two very different manifestations, one true and one false.
    Derek Mahon's poem "Homage to Malcolm Lowry". "Lighting-blind, you, tempest-torn / At the poles of our condition, did not confuse / The Gates of Ivory with the Gates of Horn."[12]
    Margaret Drabble's novel The Gates of Ivory


Why should false dreams be sent at all? JSTOR has something interesting on it concerning one being the eyes and one being the mouth, let me read it and come back in today when the baby is gone for the day.

OH good point on Laertes, I kept wondering idly where I had seen that name before, so far he's definitely a bit player here. And I can't see how he could step that up much, due to his age. O is not the same son material as Aeneas was, apparently, not a lot of deference and planning, letting the old man in on it or even asking the old man like Aeneas did. You'd think that O would make his way there first. I'm still confused about that.

Babi: O. brings up a point I’d wondered about myself.  Speaking to Athena, he says, “If by the will of Zeus and by your will I killed them all,  where could I go for safety?  Tell me that.”      Indeed!  These are fellow Akhaians and the princes or nobles of major houses from every island in that part of the world.  Killing them would surely bring on a manhunt of colossal proportions.  

Yes but those suitor are in major violation of the concept of Zeus's hospitality with a capital H, don't you recall Menelaus' reaction? And since the Ithacans themselves are the object of controversy among scholars (how could any Ithacan even contemplate such a thing?) then ...I need to try to find where you saw that and see what Lombardo has!!

Super points here today!

Let me see what more we  can find on the Gates, since it appears there's even more here. Isn't it interesting how they differentiate between the prophetic quality of dreams? And the origin of dreams?

[Frybabe]

Did O grab the maid's throat as Lombardo says or her mouth as in the heading,...

Ginny, the scene I read is that when Euryclea recognized O's scar she dropped the water ewer and threw her arms around him. The Pope says, "His hand to Duryclea's mouth applied", and goes on to tell her to keep quiet or , "With their lewd mates, they undistinguished age shall bleed a victim to vindictive rage." Of course, she let him have it for thinking she was untrustworthy and would betray his presence then offers to help sort the lot between those who should live or die. O declines the offer. He wants to make his own decision in that department.

[ginny]

HA! His hand to Euryclea's mouth applied. I can see that! It's quite modern, thank you. What do the rest of you have?

We need the Greek, I need to come back, but look what I just found on the way out to the Children's Museum!!

The Haller article! See if you can read it here!  I think it's an eye opener!

See new link below, hopefully you can get one free:

[ginny]

See if you can read this:

http://www.citeulike.org/article/6430585

[Babi]

 Poor Penelope. I can't blame her for not believing her dream. It's a weak rope on which
to hang a painful hope. She protects herself by insisting 'it's too good to be true'.

BABI: I double checked. It's line 651 in book 19.

Umm,JOANK, you've lost me. I don't know what you're referring to here, and in my translation Book 19 doesn't have 651 lines. Can you clarify for me?

 I was also upset with O's treatment of the old servant. Granted that he must be very
'up-tight'; his action was inexcusable. A warning to her of the necessity of secrecy would
surely have been enough. What I'm getting here is a strong impression that the 'upper class'
didn't have a very high opinion of the intelligence, reliability or loyalty of the servant/
slave class. Perhaps with some cause. How their masters treated them would make a very big
difference, wouldn't it?
  It would make a difference if O'covered the mouth, rather than grabbing the throat. The
latter is much more threatening, and actually that is more consistent with O's threat to her.

 To introduce another thought... Philitios.   I like Philitios;  he is a fine fellow.  But really, do you walk up to a perfect stranger and promptly tell him the full history of the place and everything that’s on your mind?  Including things you would probably be careful about saying to a friend?  “My own feelings keep going round and round upon this tether: can I desert the boy?”    He would not, as it turns out, but it is not a thing I can imagine him saying out loud to any but his most trusted friend.
   

[Dana]

The Greek referring to Odysseus grabbing Euylcleia's throat says

he took her throat having grasped/laid hold of/striven after it with his right hand
and with the other having drawn her near said:

the Greek does use the word farugos which does mean throat

I could not open that article about gates of horn and ivory.

When I first read it in the poem I thought horn is more everyday and ivory is more exotic, so there are two kinds of dreams, the more realistic (horn) ones and the more exotic (ivory).  Which in fact is true of course.  Tho you can define dreams in many different ways.

[JudeS]

Hi All-
I have returned from a wonderful Elder Hostel at the Peabody Institute (The Musical University of Johns Hopkins).  The subject was The Development of Romantic Music from the Baroque to Brahms. Also it was our first time in baltimore which has inumerable sites to visit. Excellent!
I read ALL your remarks on chapts. 18 & 19.
I have two remarks:
One on Simone de Beauvoir-I actually met her and heard her lecture when she came to Israel with her then lover Claude Lanzmann . It was after she andSsarte had parted ways. If anyone is interested in this let me know and I will reply.
Second :im chapter 19 I was fascinated by the word used bt Penelope line 299:
"Destroy I call it-i hate to say its name." This is a combo of the words Troy and Destroy which was coined by T.E.Lawrence based on the Greek two words:kakoillion --which combines the Greek word for Evil kakos with Ilion ,an alternative name for Troy.
 One other thing:  Odysseus  the man of pain as noted byFagles that this is both in the active and passive states.i.e. he suffers pain and also brings much pain to others.  This is in prep for his battle with the suitors. 

[ginny]

Hey, Jude! (Pun intended!) hahaha  I was just thinking about you this morning, welcome back!

Yes tell us all about everything and anything including  Simone de Beavoir!

Murray has  Euryclea saying to O  and "while she spoke, looking toward Penelope wanting to show her that her dear husband was at home," but P of course was diverted by Athena and did not catch it. Maybe O was trying to turn her head away? I dunno. He had a lot to lose, and with the other hand he pulled her close and Murray has him addressing her as "Mother, why will you destroy me?"

Her answer and the "barrier of teeth" plays right into the Gates of Horn and Ivory apparenty.  I am sorry you can't open it Dana!

Hang on for 20!!

[ginny]

Ok 20 is short and sweet and contains one of the strangest scenes I think I have seen, what did you make of the sutiors' hysteria?

I agree Babi I like Philoitios, and found myself hoping HE wouldn't be killed at all. Perhaps he found himself warming to the beggar, who reminds him so much of O. Hexter says the name Philoitios means "something like 'desirable fate.'"

I guess he's there to show loyalty and there are some good people left. I guess it's an accident they are all herders? And in the case of his old nurse, servants.

hahahI have to laugh at Hexter here, he says with this group in the courtyard, "We now have assembled a swineherd, a goatherd, and a cowherd. For a complete quartet of ancient herdsmen, we lack only a shepherd." hhahahaa  He points out rivalries are normal between the different types over grazing lands, and says "Goatherds are usually presented as the rudest and crudest of the lot, and Melanthoios stands at the head of this literary tradition. (After Homer, swineherds appear less frequently than the others; indeed, swine tended to be kept closer to home)."

Hexter says Philoitios' speech shows how courageous he is as he states his loyalties without waiting for O to show what ties if any he might have TO O, a good point.

Now we have the third physical attack on O, in the form of a cow hoof from Ctessipus. And we have more bird omens, and a  thunder omen, and Penelope appealing to Artemis. I must admit for a second I had to double think Artemis.

It's also abundantly clear what a burden these men are on the household, it takes 3 herdsmen to bring in the meat and lots of women to grind grain for bread, not to mention the wine-cellar, it's a miracle anything is left.

But what on earth did you make of this:

"Thus Telemachus. And Pallas Athena
Touched the suitors' minds with hysteria.
They couldn't stop laughing, and as they laughed
It seemed to them that their jaws were niot theirs.
And the meat that they ate was dabbled with blood.
Tears filled their eyes, and their hearts raced.
Then the seer Theoclymnus spoke among them:"

Wow, that is powerful! What a picture! What is happening here?

Here are some questions from Creighton, not many, there's not a lot in 20:


Notice the self-restraint of Odysseus. What is the meaning of his conversation with Athena?
 Pay attention to the visions and prophecies of Theoklymenos.

Well now it's just that last that I paid absolutely NO attention to, so I'll go back and reread!

These are pretty good from AJ Drake:

Book 20

60. What portents announce the struggle to come? How does Odysseus react to them?

61. Athena inspires the suitors to behave even more inappropriately than usual. Why does she do that? What effect does their behavior have on Odysseus and Telemachus?

I would ask what is this Book  20 doing in here at all?  How does it advance the plot or not? Why is it here?


I think Temple has given up, all it's doing is summarizing, we can  do that ourselves.

I like this one from SJ Blair:

Does being a hero automatically mean that one is a good leader?

That's a good question. To this we might ask: is O, in your opinion, a good leader? How so? Or how not?

Up until now would we say he had been?

Let me go see if there are any illustrations which would suit Book 20!~ We're on target!!

[Babi]

 Ah, interesting note about the dual meaning of pain, JUDE. That is what I so much enjoy
about discussion. Simply reading the word in translation most readers (like me) would have
no clue about the subtle double meaning.

  With all respect to Hexter, I still find it odd that 'Phil' would feel called upon to
'state his loyalties' to a transient beggar who's been invited to have a meal.
 
 A good question about the mass hysteria. I think it was the reaction to the breaking of
the tension that had built up. People do tend to helpless laughter out of sheer relief.
The presence of others sharing the same experience seems to multiply the effect, as I'm
sure we've all experienced.

 Does being a hero automatically mean that one is a good leader?
  By no means. Personal bravery will rouse admiration among men, of course, but it takes
much more than that to be a good leader. For the most part, I think O was a good leader,
though he did make mistakes.  We know he had the knack of command, was a notable strategist, and was able to, as they say, make the tough decisions.  Those are certainly
essential, imo, to be a good leader.

[ginny]

On the Gates of Horn and Ivory, I'll summarize what I'm reading as I go, that's a 22 page article and it's pretty dense.

Here's what I can make out of  the Haller article so far:

First off the ancient scholarship is pretty aligned in saying the ivory is a symbolic nod to teeth (note how many references there ARE in  19 to "teeth"),  and the horn is symbolic of the "horny outer layer of the white of the eye, indicating a distinction between the potential for falsehood in speech and the reliability of vision." So that what is seen is more reliable than what comes through the teeth or what is heard. Seeing for yourself not hearing: one is false. You could argue that today.  There are tons of ancient sources here cited and those who have commented on them, so this is a poor attempt to paraphrase 22 pages.


Haller says "amid a bewildering sea of speculation, the only ancient interpretations that consistently recur emphasize a distinction of word versus deed through either (1) a pun that links horn to a verb for doing and ivory to a rare verb interpreted as 'to deceive'; or ' to harm,' or (2) the physical similarity between horn and the cornea of the eye and ivory and the tooth." Haller says the cornea bit is not supported by the text or Greek usage of the time. Lots of footnotes.

Teeth in 19 are also  characterized as a "palisade or enclosure in the proverbial expression of incredulity" connected with the nurse.   Remember also it was Penelope who wanted the nurse TO wash his feet. Haller says she must have been in SOME trance not to notice the beggar grabbing the nurse and drawing his sword? I don't see the sword in my text, but she does appear oblivious. Maybe she already knew instead of being in a cloud of Athena and wanted to prove it thru the nurse. P appears in some commentaries a lot smarter than we thought. Apparently the teeth images are born out throughout  the rest of the book as well.



So Haller says "Penelope thus establishes archery not only as a metaphorical ideal of honest communication ("feathered words,") but also a literal solution to the problem of the suitors.

So the thought of many scholars  is that Penelope here HAS recognized O (apparently there's tons of debate on this) and she's telling him thru this dream to quit lying and get on with it: deeds, not words. Then she gives him the way to solve his problem: with the bow and arrows. The EYE of the axes also will come, I see, into play.

 The bow is definitely (I am rather proud of this one) defined as a COMPOSITE bow, which IS what my husband has, and which name I could not think of,  which consists of three main materials, the wooden stave, with belly strips of horn (the "highly flexible sheath of true horn or keratin which encloses the osseous core of the 'horn' of ordinary parlance....)" and more.....

These bows (watch out for this one) cannot be strung standing up, which apparently the suitors do not know, but Penelope and O, do.  He does it kneeling, not because he was stronger, but because he "knew the way." (Stubbings)

Winkler asserts P has "simply made up the dream for the occasion as the first installment in a covert message that is continued...." in her telling of the contents. Others don't agree.

Haller says that the "fact that Odysseus' bow is composite and the method of stringing such a bow together comprise a secret sign shared between the husband the the wife and thus constitute the real, hidden test. To the listener able to interpret her clever speech, Penelope gives away the answer to this test in the gates of horn."

Now that's what I've gotten so far out of the first half of the article, very very badly summarized.

It's clear that either Homer and/ or Penelope is much smarter than we give either credit for, or tons of scholars are somewhat fanciful, or something is meant by the horn and ivory beyond what appears to be aimless  babble. The allusions in 19 if one knows ancient Greek (which I do not) are also very numerous, the entire thing is full if irony and allusion and metaphor apparently. Who knew?

More when I can decipher it, it's an interesting addition to possible understanding, perhaps.

[ginny]

It's interesting about commentators on these ancient works.

In beginning  Latin often we have  serious students who assert their desire and need to provide "Interpretation" of the text they are reading, and that's fine so long as you:

(1) have the background to be able to read, translate, and understand the words you see in the context, and can apply  both historical and cultural inferences of the time it was written to the text, and

(2) have experience in this particular author's works and in the other works of the period involved.

 There's more to it than just translating the meaning of the words or what we think the words really mean. Caesar is a wonderful example, people love to skim him and pick up derivatives and then form their own "interpretation" or "understanding" of what he's saying.  This is where the ideas of the real scholar really come to the front. It's why we need scholars.

That's where the different translators and scholars come in, with their hints and why they are needed as civilization I guess, progresses on.  Sometimes I wonder if it has. The translations are different for a reason.

People like Hexter and Haller and many others who have made the ancient  Greeks their life's work are going to have a lot more understanding of what they are reading than we get as a "feeling" from somebody's translation, so all I'm saying is that they need to be listened to and hopefully added to the corpus of our knowledge, whether or not we agree with them. You can probably find 10 authorities/ scholars each saying something different and that's fine, too.  There IS a difference, however, in somebody like a Haller and, for instance, me.

The part that makes me extremely as Babi says respectful of what they DO say is that IS their field. Knowledge is power, we need to have it all if we possibly can: one of the benefits of a group book discussion....so let's see, Caesar  has a disdain of women, you say, from his remarks in the Gallic Wars?  You base that on your own "Interpretation" of the meaning of his words? Er....not.

[Dana]

Oh I do agree.  I often think when I'm translating that even the actual meaning of the words, let alone the context, is open to speculation.  As a small example, look at the translation of "epimassamenos" which is the present  participle of the deponent verb epimaiomai , the various meanings of which are given as strive after, seek to obtain, aim at; with the genetive, make for; with the accusative lay hold of or grasp.  Now farugos is the genetive of farux, so the phrase " cheir epimassamenos farugos labe dexiteryfi" could be translated, " making for her throat he took (labe) it with his right hand".  The verb lambano of which labe is the aorist active ( think--should be elabe, but Homer is different sometimes) means take or receive or, with the genetive, grab.....!  So the phrase might also mean reaching for her, he grabbed her throat with his right hand.  Obviously as an amateur at this I couldn't possibly make an informed decision.  But my point is, who really knows for sure what the nuances of the words are any more.  I can see spending a lifetime on this kind of stuff!!

[kidsal]

Received Orestia -- on the flyleaf is written Lydia Hoot, Grade 12, Mr White #5 of 15.  Grade 12?  What kind of school?

O a leader of men?  How many men did he lose on his way home?  Believe he was thinking more of himself (woe is me) than his men.

[ginny]

Oh good opposing points, Babi and Sally, love it, what do the rest of you think,  on O's being a "good leader" or not? To me he's certainly changed, no longer the hot head rash risk taker but more a planner now. After what I just said I have to add from the sites I've read they seem to say he's not changed.  HAS he "changed," in your opinion, or not?

But I (hhahaa) think he has...begging for scraps, enduring the three thown items, he would not have done that in the past, he could not even resist standing up, on Phaecia, to the son of the king and young men's challenges.

The three thrown insults, the pretending to be a beggar in his own house and these PLOTS and plans! He planned in the Cyclops cave and used disguise, too, but it's nothing like this. I wonder what it IS  for a Greek hero to subject himself to this kind of treatment? Is it echoed anywhere else in ancient literature?

 I bet the audience lapped it up.

Everything to me is over the top in this book, I would not be surprised to see the suitors cutting up and eating some of the others, they're about as bad as you can get: it's called demonizing the enemy, we're familiar with it in other guises, I think?

I was shocked and absolutely blown away by the description of the suitors' hysteria, that is worthy of any modern horror film! It seemed that their jaws were not their own and that there was blood everywhere! Talk about portents and foreshadowing! And I have laughed, myself, until it wasn't funny, and I liked Babi's "reaction to the tension," I wonder if the audience laughed then, too, or not? I would say not, what do you think?

So I would tend to think that up till now, he's not been a particularly effective leader of men, I think he tried but I agree with Sally he's been thinking of himself first:  he's been a bit of a braggart (Ajax) and rash and headstrong and heedless of his men....and even when he did try it seems they for some reason did not listen.

One has to wonder why that was? Why HIS own men would argue and feel they knew best, he's like a pirate after a while with a mutinous crew.

But now it seems he's finally focused. Now that all he's got left as "men" to lead  is his own son (maybe that has chastened him) and a swineherd, and oh yes Athena, too. So I guess he has to be a bit more wily.

Of course as Babi says he did try and he DID make the tough decisions. I wonder idly why some men are felt to be  "leaders of men" whose  men would follow them anywhere and some not? What qualities must some men have that O seemed not to? Of course we can blame all of it on the gods but it happens when Athena is not around.  

Some leaders whose decisions go well and some not. It's really quite a fascinating addition to the already fascinating story.