Classics Book Club, The

[ginny]

  
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

Now reading:



July 2-----Book  XXII:  Death in the Great Hall!   

Discussion Schedule:

July 2:  Book 22
July 7: Book 23
July 12: Book 24

Odysseus ordering the women to remove the bodies of the suitors
Nicolas-André Monsiau
1791

Odysseus reveals himself to the suitors
17th century etching
Theodor van Thulden (1606 - 1669)
Fine Arts Museuems of San Francisco

  

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  

Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
Map of the  Voyages of Odysseus
Map of Voyages in order
Map of Stops Numbered
Our Map Showing Place Names in the Odyssey

Odysseus slaying the suitors
Attic red figure skyphos
c. 450 BC
Antikenmuseen, Berlin

Odysseus killing the suitors
Engraving and etching on paper
John Flaxman
1805
Tate Gallery

The work is ended
17th century etching
Theodor van Thulden (1606 - 1669)
Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco

The Return of Odysseus
1913
William Roberts (1895 - 1980)
Tate Gallery

[ginny]

But here he is at last, and if we put this in the guise of a modern general or hero, it seems (to me) to take on a different slant. It would make a good movie, done like some of those Shakespeare plays, in modern dress. I didn't think I liked those till I saw Ian McKellen and I could barely watch THAT one as Richard III.  And I was kind of surprised to find Ian McKellen explaining the famous "Now is the winter of our discontent" speech on Youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_WJSHy_szE&feature=related

The reason I put this here is there IS a website where you can watch him explain the entire speech, but I'm not fast enough to type it as it shows here as he explains, so here he explains only the first words in one minute and it's quite similar to what we've got here: some words mean more than they appear, there are puns and metaphor, it's quite interesting.  I want to watch the rest of it. Is THIS what makes Shakespeare great?  What IS it about these two works which make them "Great Books?" They were both written a LONG time ago.

Dana I agree! There's just so much there, so many facets and byways, so MUCH about the ancients, you could literally spend this life and the next happily on one part of it. I  am so glad we're doing this.

And I like how you from time to time bring in the reasons you think this is a great or timeless work: the (I can't say it as well as you do) but the amazing psychological insights: here let me quote YOU, you say it better: I think Homer's expression of how the mind works, eg here that you can know and not know something simultaneously, and all the other examples thu the poem, often expressed in a very few words, are what make it a masterpiece for me, along with his descriptions of nature.

________________________

Now that we're in book 20 of 24, and we're nearing the end (and have not had a potty or refreshment break since this exciting stuff began hahaha) what in the Odyssey so far for YOU has made it a masterpiece, or a great book,  if it is?

Do you think it deserves to stand among the worlds greatest books and do you feel you can relate to anything in it? If so what?

Is there a modern book which does the themes better, to you? If so what is it?

What  ARE, by the way, the "themes" of the book now, do you think? Have they changed?

[Babi]

 From my translation of the episode with the nurse, Penelope had turned
to walk away. It was the nurse's instinctive reaction in trying to alert
Penelope that brought on Odysseus instant, and overly rough, grab at her
throat.  It was imperative that Penelope remain in the dark. Perhaps her
husband and son felt she would not be able to dissemble if she knew, and
the suitors would become suspicious.

 Okay, DANA, you had me lost by the fourth line. (You're a teacher, right?) I do like looking for nuances, but I'm reading a
translated version to begin with.  So..I don't put too much reliance on
the accuracy of said 'nuances'. I just go with the flow.

...and even when he did try it seems they for some reason did not listen.

Ginny, it seemed to me, on those occasions, that there was a strong sense of fate ruling the situation. 'Doom' was a very real concept to the hearers of this saga, and it explains quite a lot for me.

 

[Dana]

I would say Odysseus is more a hero than a leader.  The hero part makes him rash at times, but he is a leader because he takes charge and makes decisions--wrong ones at times, perhaps not a very good leader because  he  hasn't got that necessary diplomacy to make it OK with his troops or followers (compare Caesar and Augustus--I would think Augustus was the better leader because he was able to get his way but keep everybody happy too, Caesar wasn't--he got himself killed)....
I don't really think he's changed--he's got a plan to defeat the suitors and he's following it, and the plan includes being patient and suffering insults, so he does, with some difficulty as Homer points out.  In Phaeacia I don't think it was so important for him to put up with insults, so he didn't.

I'm not a teacher BABI, maybe if I was I could explain better!

[Frybabe]

I don't think O was a particularly good leader, at least not on the homeward journey. On occasion his men disobeyed his instructions, and some his bravado resulted in the deaths of some of his men. In the end, he had no one left to lead. I'd like to think he did change some though. Anyone who gone through war and various catastrophes changes.

[Babi]

You sounded very well informed to me, DANA. Your explanation simply
included terms I never got into.  I'm afraid I got my 'A's on English
entirely on the strength of familiarity with the written word. I knew
what was correct and what wasn't, but could not at all have given the
technical rule as to why.

 People do change, don't they, FRYBABE, and the shocks and horrors of
war can be devastating.  I wonder, tho', does everybody at some point
in their life become set in their ways and stop changing?   Do some manage to keep open to what comes, and continue to adjust?  I'm still
learning, as are most here,  but I wonder if that includes any basic changes
in thinking, opinions or outlook?   (And will I have sufficient discipline or
curiousity to pursue that thought? )

 

[ginny]

Dana is our famous resident psychiatrist.  She will correct me, it's the title, psychologist, psychologist, the  one with the MD, and smart doesn't begin to cover it.

I liked your application, Dana, of O as hero and not leader.  And is there a difference between leader  of men and leader in battle? A general? Have many generals in our own history made good political leaders? I can think of Eisenhower, and.......


and....?

(compare Caesar and Augustus--I would think Augustus was the better leader because he was able to get his way but keep everybody happy too, Caesar wasn't--he got himself killed)..   Now you know I can't let that pass without a tiny quibble. hahahaa

Caesar's men in his army, unlike those of O, would have happily died for him (and did). His army (and we have seen why in reading his Commentaries: he stomped immediately, using psychology on any hint of quibbling), but his army  would have done anything for him and followed him anywhere. O definitely did not have that luxury, but remember also, he kept losing? He started out fine after the Trojan War, lots of bragging, started out home and then kept losing. Caesar didn't. And it's perfectly true that the armies at least in Caesar's day, thought a winning general was blessed BY the gods, and if you hung with HIM you'd  be lucky, too. There was a real superstition even a millennium later, in the army.

I think Caesar's  biggest fault  politically was his clemency. I've forgotten how many of the conspirators who killed him had been pardoned by him, in civil life, and given another chance.

On Augustus? hahaha He was much more the vicious political  adversary  than Caesar, much more harsh, equally if not more so egotistical,  and let's face it, after his proscriptions there was nobody left TO oppose him:  everybody lived in total fear, those were certainly rough times. So naturally he became more of a leader of men politically: most of his opponents ended up like Cicero even if they didn't have their heads on the rostrum in  the Forum, like Cicero  did.

O kept running afoul in his journey home,  and that made his men think that he should listen to them. Quite the come down, some of the things that happened to him, but here he's hit rock bottom in his own home,  and he's got his own group of conspirators, the suitors, waiting. And we can see why O blames everything on Zeus, or Poseidon, that's the way they thought. Babi has picked up on the sense of "doom" thing, rightfully.

When you think about it O really had double demons  to confront: the actual happenings,  and being labelled  not favored by the gods. (I seem to remember at least one place he went the host marveled at what gods must be against him).

(I just saw yesterday in the new Time Magazine article on hacking how great the devastation of the Malware Zeus has been!

I am loving the comments on O as leader AND has he changed, let me see if I can get you all right?

No he has not changed: Dana

Yes he's showing change:   Frybabe, ginny

Babi says people DO change, do you think he's changed, Babi?

What  do you all say, do you see any change in O at all? Or not?  How would this "change" be noticeable? And would it mean anything at all?

And what kind of "leader" does he seem to be? Would YOU follow him? I am wondering why he can't get  Menelaus who has told T outright that they would support any attempt by any suitors to take over O's kingdom, to join in? Would only take one more boat trip?

[Dana]

Its interesting Ginny, your question about the difference between a wartime leader and a peacetime leader.  i was thinking when I wrote that about Caesar and Augustus that Caesar was a brilliant leader of men in his armies, was ablle to boost their morale, use psychology, be ruthless when he had to be--but then I remembered some of his legions mutinied (not remembering why....).   Augustus produced a period of peace and prosperity though.  I do think that a brilliant leader has to be ruthless to get done what needs to be done, you have a good point--Caesar should have bumped off a few more of his enemies!  In spite of his clemency he wasn't able to charm them or placate them into accepting him perhaps he was just too arrogant.  he comes across as pretty arrogant. It seems that these conspirators did hate him.

I'm a psychiatrist, that's the MD one!  but now I'm more interested in things Latin and Greek!!

[JoanK]

DANA: and people do!

I love the ivory referring to teeth (speech) and the horn referring to eyes. Practically again, since the Greeks believe in dreams as prophacy, they need an explanation as to why it doesn't always work.

JUDE: the development of Romantic music frrom Bach on! I am so jealous of you!! Have you talked about what you learned in the Classical Corner on Seniors and friends? For some reason, S and F won't let me log in, and I miss that program.


I just spent two hours listening to Mahler, not my favorite composer. But on my local PBS, the conductor of te San francisco orchestra soent an hour talking about Mahlers childhood, and how he used his chuildhood musical memories in his Symphony No. 1, Then another hour playing the symphony. It was very interesting. I may become a Mahler fan yet.

Why this chapter, indeed. We are drawing out the inevitable here to a painful extent.

[Frybabe]

JoanK, I am having the same experience with S&F. I had trouble for two days, then yesterday, just in time for Don's show, I could get in. A little slow at times, but I was in. Now this morning, it won't let me in again. There was a system upgrade on the weekend that messed things up. They thought they had the problem fixed, but apparently there is something else wrong now.

[Babi]

Your mention of Eisenhower brought back a memory, GINNY. I remember
commenting once on Eisenhower and what he had accomplished. My father, who was a very smart man, agreed, but said that as president, Ike's strong point was his ability to pick men who could handle the things he could not.  (Not his exact words, but that was the gist of what he was saying.) That's good leadership, too.

  We start Book 21 tomorrow, right?  I found such a disappointment
awaiting me there. 

[ginny]

Babi,  We start Book 21 tomorrow, right?  I found such a disappointment
awaiting me there

A disappointment!!!! What? I can't wait to read! How time flies, seems like we just started 20!

Hopefully everybody will be able to keep up the pace, I am missing some of our contributors here, where ARE you? Are you all fallen by the wayside? I hope not!!

I really am going to miss reading a book like this. There aren't many books you can read in installments, I do think Dickens had the right idea. Some day I'd like to read one of his in the actual installments as it came out in the press, with the same intervals.

Ike's strong point was his ability to pick men who could handle the things he could not.  (Not his exact words, but that was the gist of what he was saying.) That's good leadership, too.  Delegate, what an interesting point. Caesar did delegate, and O seems to, too,  but ultimately the buck stops somewhere. I love this great statement, Babi!

Joan K: Mahler!  Not my favorite either, haven't listened to him in years, recommend one for us and I'll try him again. Heavy, why do I remember heavy?


I love the ivory referring to teeth (speech) and the horn referring to eyes. Practically again, since the Greeks believe in dreams as prophecy, they need an explanation as to why it doesn't always work. Me too, and the ivory and horn come back out in this book in later chapters. I am glad to finally have some kind of explanation of it, it confused me no end in The Aeneid.


It seems that these conspirators did hate him.

Dana, I'm not that sure. I'm reading Goldsworthys Antony and Cleopatra and he's just made the point about the political climate at the time of Antony, where political ambition took an ominous turn with the first  Gracchus and continued with murder and intrigue slap up to Antony's time, in fact he makes the point that it was normal for the time.

When you combine that with.... I can't get over Dante putting Cassius AND Brutus in the lowest level of hell along with Judas. There all three of them sit,  the only ones, at that lowest level, as I  understand it, for eternity.

 I can see Cassius there. Shakespeare did such a job (thanks to Plutarch) on him, talk about psychology! He practically turns green with envy: nothing like a green eyed monster. But Brutus was naive and a dupe,  ironically living UP to the meaning of his name, going proudly on his own historic name's reputation and hoping for himself to equal his ancestor and "save" the Roman republic from a dictator (while the rules about appointing a dictator were still firmly in place) and add his own name to history. He got taken, but since it was something of a precedent, it wasn't quite how we'd see it today.  And of course their actions led to Civil War and an Emperor. Stupid things.

Once Brutus was in it, that gave it "legitimacy," which was Cassius's idea in the first place and   other men hoping to share the top ranks, once persuaded,  joined as well. I'm  not sure hatred was their primary motive,  you can see that in several of them, but it was mob rule;  even so  they hesitated, even Casca once he gave the first blow. And of course had they been thinking, they could not have hoped for anything from the 900 man Senate, who stood aghast,  not celebrating, 600 of whom Caesar appointed himself,  or the people, who all loved Caesar, so once the deed was done, and especially once the will was read,  they were hounded out of town and/or torn to shreds, even innocent people with the same name,  in the street by the populace.   It's fascinating, it really is. Caesar who responded so quickly in battle, simply brushed aside  this political  envy and muttering; totally discounted it. Was it arrogance? He seemed to trust in the Republican process, that's why he appointed 600 more Senators. hahaha

We know Caesar was  arrogant, I guess he thought in the old way: the enemy is the enemy but Rome is home. I guess he made the mistake of brushing off envy...and probably never dreamed of a coniuratio,  a conspiracy, which the Romans hated more than anything else.  Not expected or done by a true Roman, anyway.

The people loved him and Brutus should have,  pardoned as he was, I guess that's why he's in hell, according to Dante. Pride goeth...

but then I remembered some of his legions mutinied (not remembering why....)  You're right and we remember Caesar's response, how fast and how cleverly he acted, after all it's not what happens to you in life but how you react. I thought that last one we read was a masterpiece of psychology, he had them all about crying and pleading to go with him, and he DID use delegation to win the day, very very smart.   He was on it in  the battlefield. In private life...I dunno. I think he's fascinating.

I think I have finalized my list of the 3 people I'd most like to have dinner with: Caesar, Homer, and BL Ullman. I think Dr. Ullman would enjoy that dinner, I could sit like a silent fly on the wall and take notes. hahaha

If YOU could have dinner with any 3 people from history, who would YOU choose?


________________________________

Meanwhile, back at the castle, we've got this additional small chapter which seems to be doing nothing but which is building suspense and actually apparently? has set the final stage of the plot in motion. We're to have a contest! A focus at last! And apparently? Penelope WILL choose? Of course if nobody manages TO string the thing OR shoot thru 12 holes then ...what? Do they all go home at last?  Is it over?

Will in fact the contest BE the climax of the book? I think I may have missed that part.

Plot wise we may finally have the action building TOWARD something? He's home, he's still not in control, he's in disguise so his "homecoming" theme is still not fulfilled and certainly his need to be a hero isn't either?

So in these last  5 chapters, thanks to this contest, we're about to see all!

Shades of Ivanhoe and pretty much all the fairy tales we've read, absolutely love it!

Ollie Ollie Oxen Free! Come on in!

Last thoughts on anything up till now?

[Dana]

Penelope on sleep:
"Evil may be endured when our days pass
in mourning, heavy hearted, hard beset,
if only sleep reigns over nighttime, blanketing
the world's good and evil from our eyes."

Macbeth on sleep:
"Macbeth shall sleep no more.
Sleep that knits up the ravelled sleeve of care.
The death of each day's life, sore labour's bath,
Balm of hurt minds, great nature's second course,
Chief nourisher at life's feast......"

Not quite the same--Penelope made me think of Macbeth and then when I looked it up to get it right I just had to copy it because it is so perfect.

Three people I would like to dine with?? 
How about Caesar, Freud and Helen of Troy??  (maybe Augustus.......too)

[ginny]

Oh wow those are great lines and that's SOME table you've assembled! Wouldn't you love to hear THAT conversaton! hahaa

There are some fabulous bits in 21 coming up and I think I see why Babi is disappointed,  were the rest of you? I'm thinking it's for a good reason, can't wait to find out what you think.

Since we're to have (believe it or not) storms tonight and tomorrow, I've put up the new heading now and will put in some great questions also but first off:

1. Why do you think  Telemachus spoke to Penelope as he did? After all it's her idea, and she's come out like a lioness against the suitors, very bold behavior. What is going on, do you think?

Here are some more questions, first from a Dr. Fredricksmeyer. I don't know who he is but I love his questions:

Book 21
73.   Does Penelope's initiation of the marriage contest (and her preceding decision to remarry) seem psychologically plausible or not?  Explain.

74.   After the contest is underway, which of the suitors tries to delay it, and why?

75.   Before Odysseus, who almost succeeds in stringing the bow and who/what stops him?

76.   What has Telemachus done to set the suitors up for a slaughter?

77.   Can you identify language at the end of this book and the beginning of the next that characterizes the killing of the suitors as a culinary act?  


Here are some more:

From: http://www.millstoneeducation.com/worldLit/c8thru12/odyssey/questions.php

What is the significance of the contest of the bow? What is Penelope saying to the suitors by having this contest? (bk xxi, pp. 301-318)

Why does it bother Eurymachos that he cannot string the bow? (bk xxi, ln 249-255; p. 315):

Why does Antinoos suggest that they take a break and offer sacrifices to Apollo? (bk xxi, ln 259-268; p. 316):

Why are the suitors so afraid that the stranger (Odysseus) will be able to string the bow? (bk xxi, ln 320-329; p. 317):

From: http://mockingbird.creighton.edu/english/fajardo/teaching/eng120/homer2.htm

What does the contest of the bow symbolize? Why can't the suitors string the bow? Can Telemakhos string it? Pay extreme attention to the scenes when Odysseus strings his bow. Why is the bow compared to a harp or lyre (lines 460-469, p. 374)?


I love that one about why are the suitors so afraid that the stranger (O) will be able to string the bow? Why ARE they?

And this one:
What is the significance of the contest of the bow? What is Penelope saying to the suitors by having this contest? (bk xxi, pp. 301-318)

What do you think about any or all of these? Is there a passage in 21 that you were particularly struck by? Do you see the actual reference to O's having strung the bow sitting?

A drachma for your thoughts!

[JudeS]

Joan
If you like classical music the Peabody institute hqs 50,yes fifty seminars a year on every aspect of music (Classical mainly but Jazz, broadway and movie music as well) The teachers were amazing. I can't find words to praise them enough. Not just lectures but each of them was a master pianist and each idea was played, not just explained. Every night a concert. What an experience. I'm having a hard time coming back to reality.

Ginny-
It is a good and bad thing to make a two  week break from the discussion. Good in that you see things with a slightly changed
perspective. Bad in that it's a bit hard to catch up with all your thoughts.

The one thing that I keep thinking about was the fact that Homer describes objects, places and people in such detail that  he became blind later in life , he was definitely sighted for many years.  A blind from birth man could not describe things in the manner that he does in our story.

Another perspective is that not all the chapters are written in the same manner. Perhaps the same person didn't write alll of them but there were two or more authors. Or perhaps there was a story that became longer and longer as time past and certain people added parts or enhanced the story. Homer may have beenthe Bard that told the story but perhaps he learned it from someone.
I'm not answering your questions Ginny but just expressing thoughts that are running around in my brain.

[kidsal]

Does Penelope's initiation of the marriage contest (and her preceding decision to remarry) seem psychologically plausible or not?  Explain.

It has been 20 years, the suitors are eating up (literally) T's inheritance, perhaps she has run out of ideas on how to stave them off, perhaps she would like to marry again -- someone of her choice, she isn't getting any younger -- don't know what the cutoff age would be for the suitors?

[Babi]

after all it's not what happens to you in life but how you react.

  So true, GINNY.

 I suspect my 'disappointment' is more trivial than you give me credit
for, GINNY.  But  I am shocked; I am devastated.  The great Hercules, hero of a thousand TV dramas, exposed as evil! “...he murdered his guest at wine in his own home--inhuman, shameless in the sight of heaven--to keep the mares and colts in his own grange.”   How can I ever enjoy a heroic tale of Hercules again?

 

[ginny]

Jude, good points! And your trip sounds like a fabulous adventure, no wonder you can't come down!

Babi, uh oh, then you don't want to know how Hercules ended up doing the 12 Labors he's so famous for, maybe.  I thought you were referring to the way Telemachus addressed Penelope, I expect he was frantic, of all the times for her to come out swinging, this is not the time. I expect he'd have done anything to get her out of the room.

Sally, I agree, it's obvious they ARE younger but I'm not sure how young. I still don't see anything about, if none of you CAN string it, then you all go home.

I'm unclear if  Antinous  strung it at all? Did he?

[Babi]

 Telemakhos does again takes a high tone with his mother, ordering her about and proclaiming himself as master, but this time I understand.  He has needed some pretext to get all the women out of the hall and safely behind their own locked doors.  All hell is about to break loose down there and Penelope’s safety is paramount to both father and son.  Taking this
macho tone would seem perfectly natural and reasonable to the suitors,
too.  They would make no objection to Penelope's leaving with all the
women.

[Dana]

I think Penelope initiating the string the bow contest now,  fits in with the idea that she unconsciously knows that the stranger is Odysseus so she is setting up the opportunity for him to intervene. But because its unconscious she has rationalized the decision to herself by saying that T. is now grown up, its time for her to leave.  i don't think its coincidence that she tells the beggar of her plan first, she's giving O. an unconscious heads up.  We see the clues for this in her "I almost said, bathe your master" remark and then in the next chapter her comment,
 "Tonight the image of my lord came by
as I remember him with troops. O strange
exultation! I thought him real, and not a dream."

[Babi]

 I agree, DANA.  Penelope's instincts are telling her something her mind is totally unable to accept
just yet. After twenty years, she has accepted that Odysseus will not be coming back.  She is
not going to expose herself to the pain of hoping again and being disappointed again.  She 'held
the fort' until her son was old enugh to claim his heritage, which is in itself a remarkable accomplishment.

[ginny]

So you all think, consciously or unconsciously, Penelope knows THIS is Odysseus? I wonder why he doesn't tell her then? Or why she doesn't say to him, I recognize you.   Just picture the scene! IF she knows it is he, what tension, they are dancing around each other. I sort of think she does, too. LOTS and lots of writing on this one, both sides equally defended. We, the "listeners" at the fire can debate this one, better than a soap opera!

I was thinking today about this father/ son combination, and how harmoniously they work. Imagine what an older resident of Greece must have thought to hear this story, here the old man (O) is treated with courtesy and respect (unlike, strangely enough,. his treatment from the son of the king and his bud in Phaecia).

 Odysseus is lucky in his own son, but I keep coming back to Laertes.  Is he that lucky? How OLD is he anyway? Perhaps he's soo old they don't want to worry him?

I had to laugh today at a Sirius commercial for the Weather Radio Channels  they've got going now, quite a few of weather channels, Baby Zeus (I kid you not) is wanting to hear the weather when his mother keeps saying your father makes the weather, it's a hoot.  Of course it jumps right out at you, having read this and hearing Zeus thunder when O strings the bow. hahahaa

So here we are, the contest is set, don't you love the two different representations of what it might have looked like in the heading? I bet there have been books written on how those ax heads were placed to get the rings, I know I've read enough for a book. All I can think of is Robin Hood. hahaha

There are so many beautiful passages in this section. I absolutely LOVE all the stuff about the locking of the doors. Penelope uses "a beautiful bronze key with an ivory handle," to get the bow.
" She quickly loosened the thong from the hook,
Drove home the key and shot back the bolts.
The doors bellowed like a bull in a meadow
And flew open before her."

That makes the point to me that these doors in this place are nothing to trifle with and Telemachus is in the process of locking up all the weapons  and O tells Eumaeus that he  should tell the women to  lock the women's  doors to the hall, and after he gives the bow to O, he tells the nurse to tell them, and she locks them herself.  Now I'm not sure which doors we're talking about here because he says Telemachus says you should lock the doors, but it was O who told him? (In Edit: oh duh, he can't say O told him, now can he?)

Homer is playing close attention to the plot, imagine trying to memorize this thing, no wonder there are different voices as Jude says, popping out. I could never keep the details straight!

So maybe these are other doors?  And O tells Philoetius to bar the courtyard gate and secure it quickly with a piece of rope. So they are locked IN and these doors are nothing to laugh at and their weapons are locked away, I'd say the trap is closing! .

Did you also notice that they apparently had shelves  or "platforms" to put their chests of clothing on?  This is a revelation to me. We forget no designer closets for them, chests, no closets. But these chests are on a platform and the bow is on a hook.


I love these questions:


Why does it bother Eurymachos that he cannot string the bow? (bk xxi, ln 249-255; p. 315):  I don't have those lines in Lombardo but it appears E is afraid he'll be laughed at for all eternity, which, I guess has come true, actually. So that shows they do have SOME idea of right and wrong or their place in history and boy Penelope sure told them outright, didn't she!

The other ringleader, Antinous, when this happens, says let's put it off and oil it up and heat it up (and give me a better shot at it in the morning maybe it's cold or something) and I don't think he ever strings it at all!

But O does, and beats them to it. Don't you love these secret signals between O and Telemachus? The rising and lowering of the eyebrows? hahaha I can see George Clooney here very well.

And just when it all seems anti climactic again, and O says we'll need some music and song and entertainment--the finishing touches for a perfect banquet, he lowers his brows.

Telemachus then slings on his sword, seizes his spear and "gleaming in bronze" takes his place by his father's side!

Here it comes, are we ready for it? Talk about a cliff hanger! And it's the end of the chapter, too!

Why do you think the story is in the book about how O GOT the  bow? Were you thinking "another story?"

This is good stuff!  I need to find the eating references, this goes back to an earlier question about the belly thing.

[ginny]

I would have said O''s stringing the bow and shooting thru the ax holes was the climax of the plot but Spark Notes says it's not, the climax is in 22!

[Babi]

 I agree.  Stringing the bow and shooting through the axe holes was the
CHALLENGE!  O now has the full attention of a startled, red-faced,
angry crowd.
   

[Dana]

I don't think Penelope knows, consciously, that the beggar is Odysseus.  So she would not be able to say "I know who you are."  And in fact I believe she tests him later. Why O doesn't reveal himself to her, presently I don't know.  Maybe it will become clearer.  Does he still doubt her?  Does he want to protect her somehow? 
I certainly think this chapter biulds up the tension beautifully.

I'm sitting here in LaGuardia waiting for my plane.  We got little wireless things this year because we now document everything electronically (the agency I do some work for). And we don't have to carry printers any more.  It all goes back and forward magically.  I keep being dragged kicking and screaming into the future.  Soon I may have to get a kindle and one of these fancy phones.  No rush tho........!!

[JoanK]

I've been under the weather and off the computer for two days. Glad to be back, but I'm behind -- off to read the chapter. but meanwhile, some odds and ends:

GINNY: you remember Mahler as heavy because he is. But his first Symphony, with cuckoos singing and klesmer music in the middle is the one featurd on the program, and I certainly understand it a lot better now. JUDE: I'm dying of envy. All those years that I lived near Baltimore, I didn't know. And now that I'm thousands of miles away ... oh well.

"the killing of the suitors as a culinary act?" Is the one who posed this question the same one who saw the Odyssey as about food? I'm having trouble thinking that way.

Has O changed? I've been thinking how much of the time in this journey has O been nin charge of what was happening to him, and how many of his adventures he was passive, and things happened to him? I'm not sure we've seen him make a plan and carry it out since he was in the cyclops cave.

I like the idea that P knew O unconsciously, but not consciously. Don't know if that's right, but it's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Several voices? What do the scholars say about this? I wonder if all these little stories that get thrown in without havinmg anything to do with the plot are Homer, or someone, gathering together all the folk stories they've heard from other people and sticking them in here. What do you think? 

 

[JudeS]

I found this chapter rather gruesome. let me quoie some lines
Line 490 : You Sluts-the suitors whores!
and then their horrible punishment: lines 494--498
"Then, as doves or thrushes beating their spread wings
against some snare rigged up in thickets-flying in
for a cozy nest but a grisly bed receives them-
so the women's head were trapped in a line,
noses yanking their necks up, one by one
so all might die a pitiful, ghastly death........

Then the death of Melanthus:
"Lopped his nose and ears with a ruthless knife
tore his genitals for the dogs to eat"

Of all the horrors that pass by in the preceding chapters this one is much too explicit and I wonder if it is becaus Odysseus is doing the damage and not being done to? Remember the active and passive of pain:being done to and doing to others.

[Babi]

 Speaking for myself, DANA, I don't think Odysseus doubts Penelope. I think
he is immensely proud of her, but fears she would not be able to conceal the
truth if she knew it. How many of us would be? I'd be a nervous wreck if I
were Penelope and understood all that was happening.

  The vengeance does seem excessive to the crime, doesn't it, JUDE. Tho'
perhaps not be the standards of those times. Actually, this is one of the
scenes where I can imagine a later minstrel deciding even more blood and
gore would be an audience pleaser.
  But..where men make the rules (which is most everywhere).. Even as late as
the Victorian era husbands could throw wayward wives out on the street without a dime and never allow them to see their children again. And women of the upper classes had almost no way to make a living for themselves. If their
own family refused to take them in, their outlook was pretty much hopeless.

[JudeS]

Penelope has played games with the suitors for many years.  She is a clever woman.  If she knows it is Odysseus then she knows she must allow HIM to cleanse the house of the suitors. She wouldn't mind keeping it a secret for another few days.  She would have to be dense to not see SOMETHING is going on under the surface with the "beggar".

However I personally don't think the punishments of the maids or the suitors fits their crimes.  Of course this was a different era but still it is almost pagan in its ferocity. It doesn't make Odysseus more of a hero in my eyes. He is acting like an avenging God.  But in this book Gods act like men and men like Gods.
If it was a scene in a movie I wouldn't throw it in the audiences faces that the man's genitals were thrown to the dogs to be eaten.  What does it prove? Beats me.

[JoanK]

From the schedule, we start the "vengence" chapter tomorrow. (this is like the old Saturday serials at the movies: come back Saturday and find out what happens). but we all know what's going to happen. Since we read "the Iliad", I know how graphic Homer can get ("his liver landed in his lap") so I'm not looking forward to it.

But it's not just love of gore. Homer feels he has to record each man's death as part of his "kleos".

[sandyrose]

Why does it bother Eurymachos that he cannot string the bow? (bk xxi, ln 249-255; p. 315):  I don't have those lines in Lombardo but it appears E is afraid he'll be laughed at for all eternity, which, I guess has come true, actually.

[/color]
I agree with you, Ginny, as my Rieu translation says..."  What does grieve me is the thought that our failure with his bow proves us such weaklings compared with the godlike Odysseus.  The disgrace will stick to our names forever."

[sandyrose]

Ginny, way, way back you mentioned something that was on the Hee Haw shows.  We watch the reruns of Hee Haw on Sunday evenings.  Anyways, four guys (Roy Clark is one) sitting and drinking, moonshine I am guessing, and they sing.."doom, despair and agony on me."  Reminds me of Odysseus. 

[Babi]

  I really don't think Penelope is aware that this is Odysseus. Even if the
man strikes some chord of familiarity in her, she would not allow herself to
explore it. She has been waiting for twenty years and has given up hope. She
is not going to readily open herself up again to that pain.

 Again the strong emphasis on the will of the gods.  I suppose it is very useful for getting past any sense of guilt.  When the old servant wants to shout in triumph, O’ stops her.
“Rejoice inwardly. No crowing aloud, old woman.  To glory over slain men is no piety. Destiny and the gods will vanquished these, and their own hardness.  They respected no one, good or bad, who came their way.  For this, and folly, a bad end befell them.”

[ginny]

Ah the climax of the book at last!  The entire book has built up to this moment. The main conflict, that Odysseus must return home and vanquish the suitors begins with his announcement that he's baaaack! According to Spark Notes, that's the Climax of the plot.

Like every action movie the villains get their due in a rousing finale scene, and we knew it was coming.

Bang crash, we don't have a car chase and no  CGI but we have plenty of excitement and each villain  dealt with according to his crimes. You can almost see the crowd of listeners drawing closer to hear what happened to this or that one.

It's  40 against 4 at this moment in the Great Hall.

Do we feel this is too gory?  It was 3000 years ago, but I have to say I watched Casino Royale the other night and when this scene came, as they always do in these movies, I  could barely watch the end, and that's only a couple of years old.

I absolutely loved the reaction of the suitors, each one thinking something different to save his own hide. Eurymachus saying it was all his fault, pointing  as Antinous, the first one struck, is dead.  Clemency IS given to the old tutor, that surprised me. A lot. This is a blood bath, mob rule, vengeance with a capital V, Revenge and yet the old Tutor is spared, I could almost not believe it, and  the herald Madon who was hiding under a chair.  I think that says something for O. O grew a lot in this last scene, despite Athene's pep talk, I don't think he needs her any more, just like Nanny McPhee, so she  as Mentor after Mentor is addressed/ threatened by the suitors, simply flies up into the rafters and nobody notices?

Makes Harry Potter look tame.

Things were simpler then. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. No death penalty protestors or forgiveness from the grieved family for the most heinous crimes. Still the idea of revenge lives on in our films, very strongly, so it's definitely not gone.

Jude says they are pagans. Yes they are, if by that we mean they are not Christians.  I never will forget in a tour of the  Roman city beneath the parking lot of the Vatican, and the Vatican guide  explaining how "pagan" was not a derogatory term. The unmanning of Melanthuis would have carried a strong message and that's not without precedent in the 20th century unfortunately if you read history.  To have parts cut off, particularly these, and fed to the dogs was the worst fate that could be given a Greek upon dying. I am sure everybody remembers Hector's father begging Achilles for the body of his son dragged behind the chariot around Troy so he could give it a proper burial.

I am impressed with O at this point, because he checks Eurycleia's response to gloat and says they need to be more pious:

Rejoice in your heart but do not cry aloud.
It is unholy to gloat over the slain. These men
Have been destroyed by diviner destiny
And their own recklessness. They honored no one,
Rich or poor, high or low, who came to them.
And so by their folly they have brought upon themselves
And ugly fate."

And then he turns around and asks about the women. Here he's going to separate the loyal from the disloyal.  There are 50 women, 12 are traitors.

I was confused on what the punishment actually was, there was to be slicing which does sound awful, but it appeared there was hanging. Hexter says apparently Telemachus felt that the sword was too good for them, and hanging was felt suitable by the ancient Greeks for women, and that most women in extant Greek literature, when they kill themselves, don't fall by the sword but rather by hanging.

Hexter also points out Odysseus is careful to do some washing just in case the death of the maids and the mutilation of Melanthius might be felt to be unclean and unholy, he purifies himself away from the deeds. That's interesting.  


  They literally aided and abetted the suitors, sleeping with the enemy, traitors, and one of them gave away to the suitors the fact that Penelope was unraveling the  tapestry at night. Their having to help remove the suitors was cruel but it fitted the crime as the old Gilbert and Sullivan musical went:

The object all sublime, I shall achieve in time, to make the punishment fit the crime, the punishment fit the crime.

This is an early version of that very thing. IS it too much? Jude says yes.  What do you think?

Hexter actually has this almost as a football game,  with the disparity of numbers, even keeps score as to how many each killed, the coach (Athene's) pep talk,  and the quick thinking of O, when they DO find the storeroom unlocked (I wonder why) and get some weapons. O's heart sinks. But he's quick on his feet.

This is some book. It has humor and irony and, what? 6? Epic similes.  Hexter says, "This is not the novelistic world of business, as the suitors would like to believe, but heroic epic.  They wanted the honor and glory of occupying Odysseus's place in Ithaka; they will now have to pay for their ambitions in epic terms."

How do YOU feel now that we've reached the climax? How would you like to have seen it end if you don't like what you see? Penelope, does she even KNOW this is going on at this point? Has O changed NOW? How?

AJ Drake has a couple of really good questions here, what do you think:

1. Consider the intensity of the violence throughout this book - do you find it unsettling or "over the top"? Why or why not? Does the epic narrator take up an attitude towards the violence?

2. 65. As logic dictates, Antinous is the first to die. How do the remaining suitors try to appease Odysseus? Why, in view of the Odyssey's task...... would it be inappropriate for Odysseus to accept their arguments or pleas?

What do you think about 22? First comments on your own thoughts then off to find some illustrations!

I personally found this a great book and satisfying to read, am I totally out of it? If you don't like the end, how would YOU have ended it and would that be in keeping with an epic hero?

[ginny]

SandyRose! We watch the reruns of Hee Haw on Sunday evenings. I grabbed up my Dish Network guide and behold RFDTV! I am going to cheek Sunday's listings and see if it comes on, what a hoot to hear that again. I understand it's one of the most popular shows IN syndication, go figure ( I think it's the music people who appear. Still!) hahahaa

Joan K: But it's not just love of gore. Homer feels he has to record each man's death as part of his "kleos".  Good point, we've got this epic winding down and we need to tie up the loose ends, the kleos, the nostos, the entire 9 yards, which Homer is doing. We've now had the bad guys get their comeuppance. Or those in the hall, anyway.

Didn't you love it when they thought the death of Antinous was a mistake!?! They were shocked and THEN he reveals himself. Nice touch.

 I am loving everybody's take on whether or not P knew O was  her returned husband, what good  thinkers you are. I agree with Jude that P is very clever, she is more than a match for O, and since SHE has just provided the way O can GET his kleos and nostos, we have to give her her due. I liked what Jude said about O has to do this, she can't.

That was a great point, JoanK, about folk stories added on by other voices, it makes sense to me. After all you can't form a line of 50 people and whisper a secret in the first ear without it changing completely by the end of the line.

Babi made a good point about "getting past the guilt," as we see O doing the purifying washing to do just that, and avoid any taint that this was somehow impious.

But NOW what? We've got 2 books to go. He's back. He's revealed. He's avenged his house on the suitors.  What's left?

[Dana]

I don't think the violence is over the top.  Baddies always get their comeuppance in a rousing tale and the nastier the baddie, the nastier his/her end.  Not as politically correct or civilized as life imprisonment with a chance of parole for good behaviour in a few years (can you imagine....)--but a lot more satisfying !

[Frybabe]

I quite liked this chapter. It reminds me of cartoonish fights or epic battles scenes like in Lord of the Rings or the "against all odds" fights our TV and movie heroes manage to win. Thoughts of a cartoon like "muttering head" (Agelaus) rolling along the pavement set me to chuckling.

Pope: "...they lopp'd away the man, Morsel for dogs!..." With all the other body parts being listed afterward, I would not have realized what Homer was talking about but rather thought it a prelude to the list following. Like I would have thought it said "lopp'd away at the man" and here is the list.

Did O have to kill all of them but two? I think not. Perhaps a few more honorable than the others, had they known he was back, would have packed up and left before they got locked in and had no choice but to defend themselves to the death. Seems like a bit of overkill, but guess it is better to remove your enemies now rather than let them off the hook only to have them come back later and reek havoc.

Does anyone have a sense of how long after someone went MIA back then that the spouse would be free to remarry? What stopped any of these guys from just taking O's property (and wife) if there was no one there to defend it? Why did Penelope allow these characters to stay so long, and why did they band together rather than connive against one another in competition to win her hand? I would have thought they would be trying to do each other in - last man standing wins the prize. How long were these guys actually there mooching off O's household? What rights to regain his property would O have had back then if his wife had remarried? Twenty years is a long time to wait for someone everyone thought dead. I suppose no one formally declared him dead.

Cleaning up after with sulfur: Good reason for that. Disinfectant against insects and disease. Having the unfaithful household slaves to the clean up was brilliant - poetic justice.

[Dana]

Maybe Penelope was strong and crafty enough to keep them all at bay and playing off one another, I would like to think that was the reason anyway! (How I don't know--force of personality?   Quiet and weepy, but a woman of steel?)) I don't know if there was any time frame after which a husband was considered dead.  I would suppose not because there was no central government or church or whatever laying down the law to people.  I compare Klytaemnestra who decided to marry Aegisthus whether Agamamnon was dead or not, I don't see how she could have known for sure --and then killed him and got killed for her pains.  But she had reason, he killed her daughter.  I think she's been given a bad rap just because the stories were written from the male point of view !

[JoanK]

DANA: I agree with you that Klytaemnestra gets a bad rap. I don't think it's even mentioned in the Odyssey that Agamemnon had killed their daughter. She is held up as a contrast to fiercely loyal Penelope.

I, too, feel it stretched the imagination that the suitors would have hung around so long without a resolution. And that Penelope is still so beautiful after 20 years of doing nothing but pining for O. What a life!

The vengence scene doesn't sit well with me, but it is the only ending that fits the epic quality of the poem. It's hard to imagine anything less.

[Babi]

Perhaps a few more honorable than the others, had they known he was back, would have packed up and left before they got locked in and had no choice but to defend themselves .

   I had much the same thought myself, FRYBABE. If Telemachos had approached a couple of the more honorable and well-behaved suitors and quietly advised them to leave while they could,...would they have gone? Would they think it was some trick to get them away? If they believed they were in danger, would they have been able to go without warning their best buddies?
  I don't think it would have worked and would more likely have exposed
O' before he was ready. It really was up to the individual man. Any one of
them could have said, 'Enough!', and withdrawn. If he had, he would have
survived. Character bound into fate, right?

  A bit of trivia...  I see we have an answer now to what kind of floors the house had.  Cleaning the floor after the slaughter consisted of scraping the “packed earth floor” with hoes.