Classics Book Club, The

[JudeS]

 
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July 12-----Book  XXIV:  Warriors, Farewell   

Discussion Schedule:

July 12: Book 24

Athene conceals Odysseus' departure in a fog
17th century etching
Theodor van Thulden (1606 - 1669)
Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco

Hermes conducts the souls of the suitors to Hades
John Flaxman
1805
Tate Gallery

 

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny 

Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
Map of the  Voyages of Odysseus
Map of Voyages in order
Map of Stops Numbered
Our Map Showing Place Names in the Odyssey

Odysseus makes himself known to Laertes
17th century etching
Theodor van Thulden (1606 - 1669)
Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco

Odysseus is recognised as king of Ithaka
17th century etching
Theodor van Thulden (1606 - 1669)
Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco

For Your Consideration:




Book 24

Some scholars have argued that the epic "should" end after Book 23, and that Book 24 is a later addition. What do you think? How different would the epic be without 24?

468-74 Hermes conducts the suitors souls to Hades, where Agamemnon, talking to Achilles, then praises P's fidelity. Compare the human perspective on his death with the divine one in Book 1: has the epic shifted focus from human-god relations to male-female?

475-80 O visits his father, telling him a false story before revealing himself. Why does he treat Laertes this way? Compare the different ways family members recognize O: what do these tell you about the strength of the different relationships?

481 The Ithacans, learning of the slaughter, march out to fight O. With Zeus' permission, Athena intervenes to save O, who goes to fight along with his father and son.Laertes kills Eupeithes. Athena intervenes and makes peace. Note that O still wants to fight. How does Athena discourage him? Is this ending believable in your eyes? (Temple)  [/b]



Book 24

72. Describe the interaction of the suitors' shades with others in Hades. How do Agamemnon and Achilles view each other's fates?

73. How does Odysseus test his father Laertes, now living a hard life, after the slaughter has been accomplished? What's the point of testing his father?

74. What problem remains for Odysseus to deal with, even though he has rid himself of the suitors and their hangers-on? What reason do the suitors' surviving kin give for their attempt to kill Odysseus? Is it grief alone, or something different?

75. How does the reconciliation between Odysseus and the surviving kin occur? Without Athena's divine assistance, what would be the prospects for immediate or eventual reconciliation?  AJ Drake  

As I didn't like the extreme violence I bowdlerized the contents and wrote my own chapter 22 (I don't intend to publish).

The maids who slutted
                   died enmasse.
The lazy men who tried to tear
Penelope from her lair
Were slaughtered by the brave Odysseus
                  and his handsome son.
No suitor left alive 'cept for the aged tutor
And the herald Madon,
Safe beneath his chair.

The home now cleansed of offal
And once more filled with epic love,
Shone, as rosy fingered dawn
Lit up the scene with her radiant light.

Alright, I hear you groaning. No matter. Hope it lightened your day.
Happy holiday.

[JoanK]

Didn't notice the "packed earthen floor". Seems a little plain for a house with all those slaves and gold.

[bookad]

Jude-love your little poem,

Joan-I was wondering how one would go about cleaning up
all the blood and guts and how slippery the area would have been....I was thinking if the floor were wood the colour would be hured with blood but since it was dirt.... would
one just put down a new dirt floor!!...

have been playing 'catch up' for the last couple of days, but want
to see this book thru...has been a bit of a struggle as have not
been 'enraptured' by our hero...am amazed back with the 'voices'
when he had himself tied up he would allow himself to be placed
entirely in the hands of his crew....maybe I am only seeing a 2 dimensional version of our hero...and missing that third dimension
the rest of you are viewing??

go in for my first eye cataract surgery tomorrow (apparently it takes less than 15 minutes now)--looking forward to when I can see infinitely better and don't have to keep enlarging the fonts...though am so thankful for the ease of being able to get bigger text on the computer or would not be able to enjoy a group such as this very easily!!

Deb

[ginny]

hahaah Jude! I love that, what a hoot, well done!

Deb, good luck with your cataract surgery tomorrow! It seems everybody here who has had it loves the result!

The cleaning up of the floor, what an interesting topic, here's what Murray says about it (he's one of the literal ones, where is Gum with hers?)

First they carried out the dead bodies and set them down beneath the portico of the well fenced court, propping them one against the other; and Odysseus himself gave them orders and hastened on the work, and they carried the bodies out perforce.

Then they cleaned the beautiful high seats and the tables with water and porous sponges. But Telemachus and the cowherd and the swine herd scraped with hoes the floor of the well built house, and the women bore the scrapings forth and threw them out of doors..

So depending on how deep that dirt floor was, that actually should have cleaned them pretty well because the blood was carried outside, and fluids would sink into the dirt, so you could hoe it till you hit a dry level.  I sound like something in a Ripley mystery. hahaaha


Frybabe, Does anyone have a sense of how long after someone went MIA back then that the spouse would be free to remarry? What stopped any of these guys from just taking O's property (and wife) if there was no one there to defend it? Why did Penelope allow these characters to stay so long, and why did they band together rather than connive against one another in competition to win her hand? I would have thought they would be trying to do each other in - last man standing wins the prize. How long were these guys actually there mooching off O's household? What rights to regain his property would O have had back then if his wife had remarried? Twenty years is a long time to wait for someone everyone thought dead. I suppose no one formally declared him dead.

Good questions. The suitors have been there 10 years, they said so somewhere a while back. This is especially interesting, what do you all think here?

Why did Penelope allow these characters to stay so long, and why did they band together rather than connive against one another in competition to win her hand?

How could she stop them?



 What rights to regain his property would O have had back then if his wife had remarried? That's another good one! She apparently would leave, with her new husband, she says so, so T, having come of age, would have inherited. It would have been an interesting scenario had he done that, O could hardly kill him. Would O then retire to the mountain like Laertes?

Here are some more questions: from http://www.enotes.com/odyssey/book-22-questions-answers


6. Why are the suitors’ spears unable to find their marks?

7. Why does Odysseus ignore Leodes’ plea?



 from: http://mockingbird.creighton.edu/english/fajardo/teaching/eng120/homer2.htm

Book 22

What do you think of Odysseus' killing of the suitors? Is it justified? What do you think of his killing of those who embraced his knees and begged for mercy? What is the significance of his slaying of the prophet Leodes? Notice the description of the victorious Odysseus as "spattered and caked with blood like a mountain lion" (line 453). Compare this description to that referring to the Kyklops (Book 9, line 317). What are the implications of this similarity? What do you think of Telemakhos' hanging of the maids and his mutilation of the goatherd Melanthios? Do you see some similarities of character and behavior not only between Odysseus and the Kyklops but also between Odysseus and Telemakhos?

These two sets seem to focus on mercy for some and not all and Leodes. Do you all see any difference in his decision about Leodes and the others? Why I wonder did he choose death for Leodes? And what IS the significance?

I keep forgetting also (and this pertains to the second set of questions) that it's also Telemachus' journey here.


I agree with Dana and Joan K on Clytemestra, but it does show you what they could resort to in the name of vengeance.

Dana, that's probably IT on Penelope: she's kept them there by her sheer force of intelligence and plotting, despite her apparently Loretta Young appearance without botox. (Maybe she was a very young bride and is only now in her late 30's. I suppose it could happen? It does today?)

I agree with Babi that any of the suitors could have withdrawn and apparently some were not present on this day as the count (by those who have taken that trouble is 40 suitors present) and we know there were a lot more than that. One wonders if the ones who were not there that day were sought out, doesn't say so. Looks like they had gotten in the habit of daily eating and party going. And they apparently were young, did she have a dowry stored somewhere? We know she was beautiful. That part is not clear to me.

What do you think about anything, now that we're almost at the end. I keep waiting for Laertes to come in. Somewhere in the very beginning, Hexter says that the separation of Laertes indicates the extent to which the family is in disarray, so I assume he'll make an entrance sometime to tie ends up.  But first we've got the Odysseus- Penelope ends to tie up and two chapters left!

That's a good question, Deb, on how many dimensions in Odysseus's character we're actually seeing? Are we seeing anything different from the Man of Constant Sorrows (I missed Hee Haw last night, Sandy, as we shot off fireworks here!) we met initially?

IS he different now or not? What do you think? And why?

And then of course we've got all these epic similes, what's the main theme of them, do you think?

Penny for your thoughts! I've got the Fitzgerald locked and loaded on my i phone so I can read this wherever I am on my trip.

[JoanK]

I notice that the goatherd had a fate not unlike that of a woman. the suitors deaths, although horrible, were those of warriors. But women, and the goatherd were not considered worthy of this. Apparently there are status differences even in death. What do you all think of that?

Somewhere back a ways was a reference to a "hawser made of papyrus". Landlubber that I am, I didn't know what a hawser is, but PatH says its a rope. I think they used it to tie the doors closed.


I've been wondering ever since if papyrus is strong enough to make a hawser, and if that, indeed is how they made them. I don't think the greeks used it for paper, as the Egyptians did.

[Frybabe]

Why does Odysseus ignore Leodes’ plea?

O blamed him for giving bad counsel to the suitors, thus encouraging them to continue press for Penelope's hand, not to mention the possibility of taking the prize for himself.

Pope: "Priest as thou art! for that detested band
Thy lying prophesies deceived the land,
Against Ulysses have thy vows been made,
For them thy daily orisons were paid;
Yet more, e'en to our bed thy pride aspires.
One common crime one common fate requires."

[Babi]

 Loved, it, JUDE. You even remembered the ubiquitous rose-fingered dawn.

 FRYBABE, I think the fact that there were so many contenders is what kept any one
of them from just taking Penelope and the property. Which may explain why our clever
Penelope endured them. Not to mention, as GINNY says, how could she stop them?
  Perhaps the fact that the suitors waited ten years is an indication of when O
might have been considered legally dead?

[ginny]

Ooo I like that, Pope sure has a way with words, that's clear as a bell, thank you.

Joan K, good point on the deaths, status everywhere.  What a good question!!

  Melanthius did get cut while the women were not even worthy of that;  I bet they were glad!  How graphic this is.

I hadn't thought about the 10 years being some kind of statute of limitations, Babi but now that you mention it, it does seem Penelope is ready to deal, hence the axes. Unless of course she recognizes him. 10 years IS a long time, especially sea travel then had no guarantees, you sail off and that may be it.

I looked up papyrus because I didn't know about the Greeks and their use of it, tho I do know about the Villa of the Papyri,  and it seems the Greeks did use papyrus, we seem to have more Egyptian because of that climate of preservation, but the earliest book was the Persae of Timotheus, from around 4 BC. The ruins of the Villa of the Papyri contain many Greek papyri, but since they looked like lumps of coal, many were destroyed, can you imagine?  before they started using the new imaging technology which allows them to unroll them electronically, it's fascinating and new. There was much less Roman use of papyrus.

I don't know about papyrus hawsers! Do the rest of you have that? My book has "twisted sheep gut" in book 21 on 408  but there were many different references to the closing and securing of those doors. I had remembered them slamming shut, but I was wrong, that was when Penelope opened O's treasure hideout and it made the noise of a bull.

Golly we move on in two days!  Does it actually say anywhere where you all have read that O, in revealing himself to the suitors, also changed in appearance? Seems like all through this he's changed but now in the Moment of Revelation, nothing! Or am I not reading it correctly? Where IS Athena, anyway? I assume she's the one deflecting the spears of the suitors or their swords? She's definitely taking a back seat, tho? Or is she?

I loved his own armor:  "he put about a fourfold shield, and set upon his stalwart head a well-wrought helmet  with horsehair plume and terribly did the plume wave above him."

I'd like to see that fourfold shield but the plume seems very vivid:

What else struck you all in this Book?

[JoanK]

"What else struck you all in this Book?"

The detail. We go to detail about the battle to detail about the housekeeping afterward. detail about the layout of the house (eeven if it doesn't all fit together -- another indication that homer drew from various sources?). There's something very workmanlike about Homer -- he doesn't leave edges hanging.

[ginny]

That's true and the details are fascinating, I'd love to see that foursquare armor!

I can't imagine, however, trying to memorize it.

The new issue of Time Magazine has the 48 books you must read this summer and I guess nobody is surprised to see The Odyssey front and center (the  person suggesting it, Harold Bloom, actually said "Homer,"), and Ulysses by James Joyce. I was inordinately proud of us reading it here, we're always so au courant in our book discussions!

And tomorrow we begin with the next to last chapter, and what a chapter it IS! And then we have Book 24, which probably has some of the most provocative questions I've ever seen in a  book, can't wait to see what you all think of them.

For 23 to start us out, here are a few (23 is for tomorrow, but am unsure of the weather so thought I better chime in ahead of time, better early than not.

Book 23

69. Why does the text refrain from making Penelope recognize Odysseus outright? Why does Penelope insist on testing Odysseus even after all that he has done in the hall?

70. Why is it appropriate that the couple's bed should be involved in the main test of Odysseus' identity?

71. Around line 300, Odysseus recounts the prophecy that Tiresias had made about the King's further adventure and death in old age? Why would Homer remind us of this prophecy, just as the poem achieves its goal of bringing Odysseus home and reestablishing him successfully as master of Ithaca?  (from AJ Drake)

Book 23

455-6 Eurycleia tells the incredulous P of O's actions; to what, exactly, does she finally respond? She enters the main hall. T is impatient with her, but O supports her reasoning. O takes precautions to keep the slaughter secret.

458-67 O, now royally dressed, convinces P he really is her husband. How does he do it? How does she test him? Think back to what O told Nausicaa about marriage; do those words apply here? He tells her about his adventures and they spend the night together. Consider P's reactions throughout this episode: are they believable? How does she "out-Odysseus" Odysseus here?  (From Temple)

 

[JoanK]

Yes, tomorrow O and P are finally reunited as we read Chapter 23. And we find that O has one more job to do!?! What do you all think of this chapter?

[ginny]

I love it! I absolutely love it. Home at last. There's a new series on TV about returning soldiers, and here we are, 3000 years ago,  at the end.

Or what should be the end. We've had the secret test, I don't blame Penelope for doing it, I think I was impatient with her the first time we read this, but no longer. I loved her move the bed out of the master bedroom as the last test. Just loved it. I am having a problem picturing this bed, tho, could you describe it? There's a tree trunk with...the tree trunk makes a post? So there's one post? Or is that the headboard?

I wish I could see this bed!

Dancing! Music and dancing! I am not sure why, when O leaves to go see his father (Laertes at LAST! Tying up all the ends  is our Homer), that she's supposed to stay IN her rooms as the report of the slaughter will be about the land and HE and his few men, dressed in armor, set out but Athene (here she is again, manipulating his appearance: NOW he looks like O. P says she knows what O looks like!?!)...but she was pretty much not mentioned in the fight scene. Does that mean it's all to his credit (except for the suitors's missing the mark?)

I love this chapter. I find it interesting that even tho the entire book is ABOUT this chapter, the art you can find is pretty much Thulden and Flaxman, and Thulden is one of the few doing the events of the last two chapters. Most of the art is about the exciting things that happened previously and the two in bed.  (Why does Homer summarize all the previous adventures  O has been thru for P? Of course SHE does not know them.  That's some recitation, and for me it helps to bring the entire epic to full circle).

And now ONE more task, I love it.  I had forgotten it but Homer hasn't. So many great lines in this book, I stopped dead on this one:

When someone kills just one man,
Even a man who  has few to avenge him,
He goes into exile, leaving country and kin.
Well we have killed a city of young men,
The flower of Ithaca. Think about that.

That's interesting.   What does it mean? Is this what your book says?

I love the complication in this chapter which seems on the surface to be about beds.

I think Homer might deserve the term "wily." hahahaa

What do you think? Do we have any crew left here at the end of our epic adventure, ourselves? Ollie ollie oxen freeee!

[Dana]

Re the difference between the means of death for the women and the men.   Last night we were watching the second series of "Garrow's Law".(just available on DVD.)  Its based on the real cases of a real lawyer in 18th century London.  Is terrific.  BUT anyway, a man and a woman were convicted of theft.  The man was sentenced to death by hanging.  The woman by burning. There was a difference in mode of execution at the time.  Can you believe it?  Not that long ago really.


Re the bed.  Fitzgerald translates it as  one bedpost being the olive tree trunk.  But I was a bit puzzled because all the olive trees I have seen are relatively small and I don't see how a trunk would be tall enough to go up to an upstairs bedroom.  Penelope always went upstairs to sleep........is the main bedroom on the ground floor, need to read it again....

[JoanK]

Good get, DANA! Yes, her bedroom is definately upstairs. And it seems that his bed is definately downstairs. We,ve been assuming that they would have slept in the same berdroom when he was there, and she would continue to do so. But who knows greek custom on that point. Maybe they always had separate bedrooms. They refer to the bed as HIS bed.

Well, tomorrow, our Ginny goes on her way, her silver sandals flashing in the sunlight! Have a great trip, we'll see you when you get back. Will you all help me see us to the end of this adventure, without our Athena?

[Frybabe]

Speaking of Athena, I haven't seen her post lately. What has she been up to?

My Kindle goes with me on a day trip tomorrow so I can get book 23 read.

[Babi]

Here's a link showing some really ancient olive trees.  The trunks are
massive, but not very tall.  I imagined myself standing against one of them,
and I believe the the top of the trunk might have extended high enough for
the second story. Depends on how high the ceilings were. Probably not all
that high, in those days.  Homer made such a big thing of the olive trunk
bed, and he must have known how big they were.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive#Old_olive_trees

  Speaking of Athena, It does seem to me that it would have been much more helpful to Penelope if Athena had not chosen to make Odysseus bigger, taller, with a mass of red-gold curls that he may or may not have been born with.  Penelope is looking at this glowing figure and trying to match it up with the young man who sailed away twenty years ago.  Way to go, Athena!

[JoanK]

Whoah! Those are some tree trunks! I can't imagine one as a bedpost, can you?

BABI: "Odysseus bigger, taller, with a mass of red-gold curls that he may or may not have been born with"

I hope Athena keeps it up. It might be a bit of a shock to P when he reverts to his real self.

FRY: Ginny told me where she was going, but with my senior memory ..... She'll tell us all about it when she gets back I'm sure. That will be after we finish The Odyssey.

[Frybabe]

JoanK, yes I was wondering where Ginny was off to this year, but I was speaking of our "Athena" from Atlanta. I haven't seen her post in a while.

[Babi]

   I knew you were speaking of a different Athena, FRYBABE;  it just happened that I wanted
to post something about Homer's Athena immediately after.   I don't actually remember posts
from someone named Athena.  You'd think I'd remember that, considering our topic.

[Frybabe]

Sorry, Babi. I was addressing JoanK's comment. Yes, I knew you were referring to Homer's Athena. The SeniorLearn Athena spent a lot of time in the Latin language and Classics Bulletinboard forums. It may be that she in only posting to the Latin language class which I haven't been able to join this last year or so. In that case, I wouldn't see her comments.

[JoanK]

Looks like we have a lot of Athenas here. That's good, we need all the wisdom we can get.

I love the picture of O and P's marraige given her. In spite of all the differences in culture, some things remain the same.

[Babi]

For the first time I am outraged with Odysseus.  How dare he approach that
grieving old man, his Father, and decide to 'interrogate and test him’.   For what?!! 
Honestly, I wanted to smack him! 

[PatH]

Whew!  I missed a week and a half with travel and guests, and now it's taken me another week to catch up, you are all saying so much.  What a good discussion!

I know we're on Chapter 23, but I have some comments on chapter 22.  Jude points out that not all the chapters are written in the same manner, and this is certainly an example.  It's cruder, and has almost a low comedy air to it.  And it's very brutal.  The punishment of Melanthius is disgusting torture, and the hanging of the unfaithful servants after making them clean up is pretty bad too.

There's an out-of-mood section in the Iliad, too.  It's a slapstick story of a horse-stealing raid by the Greeks on the Trojan camp that doesn't fit, and is inconsistent with other part.

[PatH]

The battle is kind of odd too.  They keep standing around, planning their next move while the other side waits paitently, then a burst of fighting, then more conferring.

The suitors don't show much strategic sense.  As soon as Odysseus had the bow aimed at them, they should have all rushed him en masse.  O wouldn't have had time to shoot more than one or two before they were all on top of him and could have brought him down by sheer weight.  Much better than standing around watching him shoot you one by one.  Maybe Athena clouded their thinking process.

Was O standing when stringing the bow?  Lombardo says (line 447, at the end of book 21) that
    "....still in his chair,"

he drew the bow and shot his arrow through the holes in the axeheads, so I guess he was seated.

[JoanK]

"standing around watching him shoot you one by one.  Maybe Athena clouded their thinking process".

It sounds exactly like those professional wrestling matches my son watches. One person does something, then stands there waiting while the other one prepares for some dramatic move. Looks phony as all get out.

Apparently, scholars feel that Chapter 23 was the orruiginal end of the story, and Chapter 24 was added on later. Does it makke a satisfactory end, do you think?

[Babi]

Your reference to slapstick made me think of something, PATH. Shakespeare always included some low comedy in his plays, apparently to appeal to a broader audience. Perhaps that is what is going on here, too.  Some people like lots of blood and gore and some like crude humor.  Like the play/song.."Something for Everyone.."

[bookad]

Pat H.--from line 420--Lattimore

...and from the very chair where he sat, bending the bow before him, let the arrow fly, nor missed any axes from the first...arrow passed through all..

wonder why various edition translations are numbered differently; was the initial book translated and numbered or who started numbering --do some translations enlarge and are more 'wordy' therefore are numbered differently

anyway i really have enjoyed my 'Lattimore' translation...

love the human input of...Babi--where you want to 'smack Odysseus' for his treatment of his dad--letting a guy who has been put on a pedestal occasionally fall off

love that
Deb

[PatH]

Apparently, scholars feel that Chapter 23 was the original end of the story, and Chapter 24 was added on later. Does it make a satisfactory end, do you think?

Not really.  We haven't yet figured out how to handle the coming revenge of the suitors' relatives, and O is just going off to see his father, who doesn't yet know he's back.  Too many loose ends.

[ginny]

Greetings from London where the weather is perfect!

This is my best trip ever or so far at least, and I am so glad to see such a great group here for the last two books. How CAN it be the 11th?

Deb, how did your surgery go?

Am having some connectivity problems in the hotel but have 4 bars now, so hope it will last.
Tomorrow on to Book 24. All I have here is Alexander Pope!  I thought it was Fitzgerald on the iPhone but it's Pope!!

Can barely understand what is happening, but I agree with PatH 24 does a nice job tying stuff up.

I won't be able to get on tomorrow so need to start 24 a bit now.  I liked it very much. Ties up all the endings including the disposal of the body of Achilles.  That was not in the Aeneid.

I also liked the comparison of Agamemnon and Odysseus seen thru the asking of the same questions O originally asked HIM when he went to the Underworld. That's neat.

And the suitors who did NOT go to war had an ignominius end

The gods come back in parlay.   Babi, Pope (as near as I can tell, and that's not much.    Hahaha) does not have the tests but seems to be building up the reunion with his father for dramatic effect.  Truly with Pope it's hard to tell.

Ulysses was just the answer on a Spanish Quiz show here on TV.  You can't get away from it.

But here we enter the last week.  What do you think? Has it been worth it?

Let me see if this will post.  Have loved all the great thoughts here!!

[ginny]

Babi, I can't edit that post in iPhone but I've read on now if you can call it that and apparently (Hexter to the rescue), you've hit on a big controversy in the thing.

Why DID O "test" LAertes?  What do you all think?

I've stuck my neck out which wasn't hard because with Pope (how do you do it, frybabe, can't  get a lot except poetry out of it.). Heck,   I just realized who Dolius is! I thought it was an epithet for Laertes!!

Where is Lombardo when you need him?

[PatH]

JoanK just called me.  Her keyboard isn't working, so she can read but not post.  I will fill in and be her typist until she solves the problem. 

"Our Athena is in London.  No wonder Prince William left me in LA and flew back to her.  Sigh.  "

[Frybabe]

I didn't think it much of a test, PatH. But I was puzzled why O had to go and start in on one of his tales again.

I thought the suitor's trip to the underworld rather, hmmm, pleasant might fit. They were admonished, yes, but it didn't seem harsh. Me thinks Pope's poetry smoothed their trip over a bit. In fact, the whole wrap up was rather smooth. I really liked the description of Laertes' rustic manor, orchard, and his labors.

[PatH]

I thought it was mean of O to test his father like that.  He comes on Laertes, alone, shabby, dirty, and sorrowful, and is moved.

"Odysseus, who had borne much, saw him like this,
Worn with age and a grieving heart,
And wept as he watched from the pear tree's shade.
He thought it over.  Should he just throw his arms
Around his father, kiss him and tell him all he had done,
And how he'd returned to his homeland again--
Or should he question him and feel him out first?
Better that way he thought, to feel him out first
With a few pointed remarks...."

What's to feel out?  He knows from Telemachus all that's gone on, he can see his father's grief, but off he goes into another long rigmarole.  And as you point out, Frybabe, it isn't even much of a test.

[PatH]

They all seem to be hard-wired to be constantly testing each other.  In book 22, when Athena is helping O, as she had agreed to,

"Athena spoke these words, but she did not yet
Give Odysseus the strength to turn the tide.
She was still testing him, and his glorious son,
To see what they were made of."

She's been watching O for 20 years.  By now she knows what he's made of.  I wonder if everyone then thought they were always being tested by gods?

[JoanK]

Hooray! My son got my keyboard working again. It'ss late: back tomorrow.

[Babi]

 A thing that puzzled me on this trip to the underworld, is the long speech dedicated to talking
about Achilles, retelling his story.  It seems totally irrelevent.  It's as though the minstrel's
audience was demanding a story of their great favorite, so this 'sidebar' was added. 
  The comparison of Odysseus fate to that of Agamemnon is fine.  That makes sense.

  Since you're reading the story as Pope wrote it, FRYBABE, I'll summarize Fitzgerald's version. The suitors were greeted by Agamemnon and Achilles, who were surprised to see so many
entering at once. Some were recognized and greeted as "picked men, and so young? One could not better choose the kingdom's pride."  Amphimedon tells the story,  right through their death at Odysseus' hands, with the help of "some god, his familiar".     Agamemnon responds by praising Odysseus good fortune in having Penelope as a wife.  Seeing what he suffered at the hands of his wife, that's understandable.
 There is no comment as to the behavior and fate of the suitors, which seems a bit odd. I
suppose I am looking at it from the modern  tradition of 'facing judgment',  and there was none.

[PatH]

Yes, Babi, that speech puzzled me a bit too.  It's not only irrelevant, but why is Agamemnon just now telling Achilles what Achilles's funeral was like?  They've been in Hades for quite a while, and this isn't the first time they've met, they were together when O saw them.  I think you're right, the audience wanted all their favorite bits, and also it was important to tie up all the loose ends.

[Dana]

I really enjoyed this last chapter (as indeed the whole poem)...I thought Odysseus was just staying true to character --always cautious, always testing,right to the end, even when he doesn't need to.  I am more puzzled why Laertes abdicated--or whatever he did, in favour of Odysseus.  If O. was in his early twenties when he departed for Troy, Laertes must have been in his 40s--how did O become king?  Its not addressed by Hechter. It must be addressed someplace, just have to look
There is an absolutely wonderful commentary by Fitzgerald at the end of his translation where among other things, he makes a beautiful case for Penelope's knowingly (ie that O. is the beggar) setting up the contest of the bow.
I have enjoyed slowly reading the book as we have done, I think I'll have to get The Iliad translated by Fitzgerald and do the same with that.  I read Lombardo once, but I do like Firzgerald.

[Frybabe]

I did a double take on the Achilles and Agamemnon bit too, but then I decided that the newbies were just giving their preceding dead heroes a salute of sorts. It was a bit confusing though. As far as I am concerned, the suitors didn't get chastised enough. The only comment I saw was to the effect that it would have been better for them to die on the battlefields of Troy rather than the way they did go.

[bookad]

Ginny--thank you for asking, it was amazingly easy, everyone was so niceand helpful--and this from a former O.R. nurse--it took less than 15 minutes and next week I go for the other  eye's cataract--
Deb