Classics Book Club, The

[PatH]

  
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

Now reading:



July 12-----Book  XXIV:  Warriors, Farewell    

Discussion Schedule:

July 12: Book 24

Athene conceals Odysseus' departure in a fog
17th century etching
Theodor van Thulden (1606 - 1669)
Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco

Hermes conducts the souls of the suitors to Hades
John Flaxman
1805
Tate Gallery

  

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  

Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
Map of the  Voyages of Odysseus
Map of Voyages in order
Map of Stops Numbered
Our Map Showing Place Names in the Odyssey

Odysseus makes himself known to Laertes
17th century etching
Theodor van Thulden (1606 - 1669)
Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco

Odysseus is recognised as king of Ithaka
17th century etching
Theodor van Thulden (1606 - 1669)
Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco

For Your Consideration:




Book 24

Some scholars have argued that the epic "should" end after Book 23, and that Book 24 is a later addition. What do you think? How different would the epic be without 24?

468-74 Hermes conducts the suitors souls to Hades, where Agamemnon, talking to Achilles, then praises P's fidelity. Compare the human perspective on his death with the divine one in Book 1: has the epic shifted focus from human-god relations to male-female?

475-80 O visits his father, telling him a false story before revealing himself. Why does he treat Laertes this way? Compare the different ways family members recognize O: what do these tell you about the strength of the different relationships?

481 The Ithacans, learning of the slaughter, march out to fight O. With Zeus' permission, Athena intervenes to save O, who goes to fight along with his father and son.Laertes kills Eupeithes. Athena intervenes and makes peace. Note that O still wants to fight. How does Athena discourage him? Is this ending believable in your eyes? (Temple)  [/b]



Book 24

72. Describe the interaction of the suitors' shades with others in Hades. How do Agamemnon and Achilles view each other's fates?

73. How does Odysseus test his father Laertes, now living a hard life, after the slaughter has been accomplished? What's the point of testing his father?

74. What problem remains for Odysseus to deal with, even though he has rid himself of the suitors and their hangers-on? What reason do the suitors' surviving kin give for their attempt to kill Odysseus? Is it grief alone, or something different?

75. How does the reconciliation between Odysseus and the surviving kin occur? Without Athena's divine assistance, what would be the prospects for immediate or eventual reconciliation?  AJ Drake

[JoanK]

BOOKAD: that's great! Let us know, but now you know what to expect.

What a grabbag of a book!! Clearly, it was meanty to tie up all the loose ends. So why do we get yet ANOTHER version of O's stories about who he is, complete with who his father is, of course. I wonder if these were real people that Homer knew about, that he had to fit into the story somehow.

Here's an idea. You know how renaissance painters painted their patrons into their pictures? Maybe these names that show up in O's false stories about who he is are patrons of Homers, whose name he gets into his poem in return for support? Wild guess, but I like thinking it's true.

I think the suitors were dragged down to Hades purely so Agammemnon can give us the hundredth reminder comparing Penelope and Clytemnestra. We know, we know!!! I'll bet these stories were thrown up to every wife whose husband went away.

Aned another lame battle scene. Boy I'm in a picky mood today. Sorry -- I guess I expected a grand summing up, not this ragbag of loose ends.

Never mind, we've had enough grandeur on this trip. When I look back, how far we've come. Do you all feel that? Relief and sorrow at the end of a long, long journey? Not quite the end. Let's take the next 4 days to chew over this chapter and anything else we want to. At the end of the journey, what have we learned? Where have we been? Where would we like to go next?

[JoanK]

Don't miss the new pictures that Ginny found for us, and a kind goddess put in the heading.

[Babi]

  JOANK, that's an interesting idea, about flattering Homer's patrons. And
considering the realities for an entertainer in making a living, it's even
plausible.
   Considering how much responsibility Athena has for all that has happened, I
think she definitely owes it to Odysseus to intervene when all those angry Ithacans
showed up.  It was bound to happen, and only the certain assurance that those
deaths were the will of the gods could have prevented them killing O.

[kidsal]

I am reading The Monk by Matthew Lewis as recommended on the Novel Bookstore website. Found this at the back of the book - a Penquin Classic.

Before 1946:  Classics are mainly the domain of academics and students, without readable editions for everyone else.  This all changes when a little-known classicist, E. V. Rieu, presents Penquin founder Allen Lane with the translation of Homer's Odyssey that he has been working on and reading to his wife Nelly in his spare time.

1946: The Odyssey becomes the first Penguin Classic published, and promptly sells three million copies.  Suddenly, classic books are no longer for the privileged few.

[ginny]

Oh i like that, Sally. I like that it was Rieu too. Good on your eyes Deb!!

I've been looking at Athene all day in the British Library. And quite a few representTions of O too.

The end does  seem repetitive Joan K.  I guess like any closing argument he wants to sum it all up and it's  a first in some ways for us to learn about how Achilles died.

And of course you are right and we have the comparisons. I wonder idly if it's Penelope being compared or Agamemnon and O , and if O then what? That  hero might not get his glory OR his homecoming due to his own actions, maybe??

I agree Dana, what caused LAertes to give up the kingdo
?  These was a big section in the Brigish museum on Greek marriage which I dutifully read but nothing on divorce or fathers and kingdoms.

I agree Joank it has been a long journey. After the reaction to the kiing of the suitors may e it's better NOT to have another blood bath.

As part of our last few days JoanK , why not put up the funm
Interactive quiz on the Odyssey from Spark Notes and let's laugh over what we got out of it??

Or didn't.     Hahaha

I love that question in the beading about how each person recognized him differently. due to how close they were to him. Ever the psychologist,  our Homer.  

This is the first time I can tell this was written after The Iliad.   Because of the death if Achilles. I never understood how they figured that.  

Well " the game is done, I've won, I've won, quoth she, and whistled thrice."

Parting shots?

If you read The Iliad, how does this match up?

Which one has the more memorable scenes?

What IS your favorite scene in the Odyssey?

What, for your money could he have left out?

[ginny]

I do apogize for the errors in the above  but am unable on the iPhone to edit the post.  That's one disadvantage of this tiny keyboard.  Now what would O
 do about  this? I must think of something wily!! Hahaha

[PatH]

Ginny, perhaps if Dante were writing now he would have a minor outer circle of Hell where people were condemned to read difficult iambic hexameters on a two inch screen and type thoughtful answers on a teeny keyboard with no chance of editing. 

[bookad]

kidsal:  how cool your posting about E.V Rieu, I have been using that book mainly because while in Rockport, Texas, it was one of 2 copies of the 'Odyssey' I could find, the other being Lattimore...and I think I lucked out, as E.V. Rieu made it so easy to follow the story, and Lattimore brought more prose to my second reading plus the advantage of paragraphs being numbered so i could follow many postings. I read the E.V. Rieu used to translate this to his family while waiting for the sirens to cease during the second world war when the bombers where flying over...and then his son went on to translate the same book again in the 90's, I believe.

even found a web site that seems to post online books made easier to follow i.e. Shakespeare, or 'The Scarlet Letter' which i had been trying to read since initially coming across it as a cassette recorder book in Brownsvile, Texas

how wonderful this computer/web browser thing is--and the main reason i am having trouble deciding whether to buy a e-book reader or a nook like tablet so can pursue right away things that ingrigue me about a read or a follow up on some point of interest.

so many decisions and choices, and hense indecision
Deb

[JudeS]

The last chapter proved very interesting and posed some moral questions for me.
The most important one was the grief of the suitors parents over their deaths and the retort that if the parents hadn't encouraged their sons to court Penelope they would not be dead now.  Could the parents really have influenced their twenty something or thirty something sons not to join the party at Penelopes?  I doubt it.
However the fact that the grieving parents were mentioned at all perhaps shows us that someones concious was tingling over the brutal deaths of these men. Wether it was the author or Odysseus or Athena we will never know.
Also the teasing of Laertes was a bit much for me and hard to understand. O said he was testing his father. But it ended up another paen to the wonders of O himself. Did someone pay to stick on these strange last chapters? it might very well be.

Advertising and putting your name out there for posterity are not inventions of the twentieth century.

 I really liked the first 22 chapters I can't say the same for chapt. 23 & 24.
In Fagles last footnote he tells this story: In a later epic poem,the "Cypria" we are told that O. , unwilling to leave his wife and baby son feigned madness to escape the summons to war against Troy.He drove his plow sowing salt in the furrows. Palamedes put the baby son in the path of the plow. Odysseus reigned the plow animals in, his deceit exposed. But once at war the the concientous objector became a warrior.
 

[JoanK]

O as a concientious objector: I love it!

In the Iliad discussion, someone commented on how much respect Homer had given to a slave girl in the story, and lombardo said that Homer respects everyone. Even though the suitors are the bad guys, we see the grief of their parents and remember that they were humans too.

[JoanK]

One of the joys of reading classics as an adult is that there is no test at the end. But for those of you who miss this, here is the spark Notes quizz. (no one need know whether you took it or what score you got).

http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/odyssey/quiz.html

[Babi]

 

and promptly sells three million copies.

  KIDSAL, I can't tell you how thrilled and delighted I was to read that. It
seems nowadays I keep hearing how few people read books anymore. I find that
hard to imagine and can only hope it's not accurate.

 Nope, JOANK,  I don't miss that final exam at all. 

  As a parting 'shot',  perhaps Odysseus' words would be most appropriate.
 
    “All men owe honor to the poets--honor and awe, for they are dearest to the Muse who puts upon their lips the ways of life.” 

[Babi]

OOPS,  how did this salesperson get in here..   MARCIE!!!

[jane]

I'm removing those posts now, Babi.

[PatH]

Babi and Jane, ever vigilant.  Thanks.

JoanK is having computer problems again. 

[PatH]

I decided not to read the introduction to my copy, or the Spark notes, or any other critiques until I'd finished the poem, as I wanted to form my own opinion without any outside input.  Now I've read the introduction in my book, Lombardo, it's interesting and helpful.

An example: she (Sheila Murnaghan, who wrote the intro) describes a breakthrough that helped clarify the role of oral poetry.  In the 1920s-30s, Milman Parry studied oral poets in the Balkans, where such was still practiced, and saw that many of their techniques corresponded to the conventions of Homeric style.  Some of the inconsistencies that were used as arguments for several authors of Odyssey are common to the oral tradition.

[bookad]

what a book--don't think I would have read it without being a part of this group though--the main character Odysseus i didn't really empathize with--he really was a  man of contrasts though he bemoaned his being in Calypso's clutches (oh woe is me) and then when in charge constantly testing people...why would he need to test his father of all people, maybe his wife...as 20 years after all is a long time to reasonably be faithful without any evidence of his survival....why wouldn't O. have given his men an explanation as to why they weren't to eat the animals, or open the bag (of wind) and then they could make decisions based on knowledge not just trust of Odysseus word 'not to do something...'...sounds like their faith in him was not very strong!!
--the dog had my empathy --what a sweetheart, sad that his master who had been away for so long, felt unable to acknowledge his dog 

Ginny & Joan --thank you for all your work thru this, pulling everything together and summarizing ...hard to believe we have been involved in this book for about 6 months...I really enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts, articles, bits looked up ....this has been a wonderful experience

and thank you everyone

Deb

[kidsal]

Any thoughts on what to tackle next?

[Babi]

Any thoughts on what to tackle next?

 Which brings up the question, for me,...   Is "Classics" to be defined, for the purpose of these
discussions, as the ancient Greek and Roman classics?  Or does it extend to other 'classics'?

[Frybabe]

Any of the Greek plays would do. I only ever remember reading Oedipus Rex long, long ago, so I am way overdue to reacquaint myself with them.

Alternatively, if we want to a Roman thing this time, how about The Golden Ass by Lucius Apuleius. I've just discovered that Apuleius, a Romanized Berber, was born in what is now Algeria.

Does anyone want to try an ancient Indian or Chinese text?


Babi, I vaguely remember that the consensus  was to start out with the ancients and expand from there later. There are a lot in the more modern classic category I have yet to read.

[Frybabe]

I've just put Romance of the Three Kingdoms (or just Three Kingdoms),attributed to Luo Guanzhong, the Moss Roberts unabridged version, on my hunt down and buy list. I believe the Kindle version is abridged. It is a semi-fictionalized account of the fall of the Han Dynasty and listed as one of the four great Chinese classic novels. One reviewer said the set he got was four volumens and covered 3,000 pages. I see only two volumes for the unabridged version, covering a little over 1,100 pages. Hopefully that means larger pages and/or smaller type.

[JoanK]

My computer keyboard id on again, thanks to my brilliant daughter.

Some great questions. The classic Club will continue. My thought is that we could archive this discussion in a few days, so anyone new coming in won't be buried in posts, and start a new board to talk about classics we have read of would like to. In the middle of August, we csan vote on what we'd like to read next.

That's just my idea. What does anyone think?

[sandyrose]

Even though I was not able to participate often in this discussion,  I did enjoy it and learned alot.  This is probably the first "classic" I have read, and would not have read The Odyssey if not for this discussion.  Thank you Ginny and Joan and those behind the scenes, for all you do here. 

Kidsal, thank you for your note on E.V. Rieu.  And thank you Deb for recommending it.  I read his son's revised translation and I loved it. 

To me, the story ended in Book 23 ---"And blissfully they lay down on their own familiar bed."  The rest of the story seemed just added on.

Thanks to all for your wonderful and very interesting posts.

Now I hope to give the Sparknotes quiz a try.

[ginny]

I understand that JoanK has computer problems and I just found out today that the connection I am using here is meant to be a wireless you pay for.   So it's something of a miracle I guess that I am here at all.

However will be in Rome tomorrow so perhaps things will pick up.

Have loved all your comments here. So glad you enjoyed the experience Deb. Laughed out loud at your great assessment of the new Inferno, Dana.  

I loved the quiz and missed two, so feel like even tho I hit the wrong keys I may have gotten more our of it this time.  Hahaha.  Must be the company.

I wish I could see your posts as I type like normal but many thanks to all of you for all you each contributed to the discussion and thus enhanced our own understanding of it.  

I've been toying with the notion of which: the Iliad or Odyssey has more depth.  I's interesting when you compare any literature what you see.

Yes when we first started this it was to be about the writings of the ancient Greeks and Romans.  You might like to define what you'd like it to include next time.  The papers here are full of Roman and Greek references. I've got a folder full of them to bring home.  

So O is home and the cycle is complete at last. He's done with the help of the gods what he set out to do.  I persist as seeing him somewhat changed. I see less of the braggart and a wiser man.  But perhaps age might do that, too.

I think we gave it a good shot in different ways and I picked up a lot of new knowledge on things like boats I never knew.

PatH, did you find that reading the Introduction after the book which I usually do, too, if for no other reason that I have more to relate to, did you feel it was something you needed or could have done without it just as well?

Do you all think the next step might be to decide what parameters are needed to get up a ballot for a  next read?

[Frybabe]

JoanK, your idea is fine with me. I've got plenty to read in the meantime. I downloaded 12 more books from ManyBook.org last night. My kindle library is beginning to look like my print library. I am up to eight pages of listings now.

[JudeS]

Ginny&Joan K
Thank you so much for all the hard work you put into the site. I am so lit up about the "Classics" that I'd really like to go for another work. I found  a copy of The Aenid on my shelf . Couldn't read it on my own.
Don't know if anyone wants to try such a daunting work.
Is the Illiad as diffucult?
Wherever you great leaders decide to go I will follow.
I meet quotes about  The Odyssey whereever I go. In "Get Thee To A Punnery"'  abook on humor by Richard Lederer I just read the following : "In the 9th book of the Odyssey , composed around 800 BC., the wily O. is trapped in the cave of Polyphemus, the one eyed giant with the 20\   vision. To fool the Cyclops O gives his name as OUTIS, Greek for "NoMan".
  When O. attacks the giant he calls to his fellow monsters for help, crying,"No man is killing me!"  His colleagues take him literally and thus the Cyclops falls victim to one of the first puns in European Literature.

Hope we meet again on this site.

 

[roshanarose]

Ginny and Joan - You handled this story wonderfully.  Long may you reign, thanks to you and the many contributors/interpreters I have learned so much.

[PatH]

I meet quotes about  The Odyssey wherever I go.

Indeed; in my f2f Sci-fi discussion group, someone said about our book "It"s like ending the Odyssey just when he's sailing back to Troy."

[PatH]

As part of my windup, I watched (again) O Brother, Where Art Thou, the movie by the Coen brothers, loosely based on the Odyssey.  I was hoping to catch a lot more references this time, but I guess I got many the first time around.

In the opening, we start with written lines:
O Muse!
Sing with me, and through me tell the story
Of that man skilled in all ways contending
A wanderer, harried for years on end---

Then we are in depression-era Mississippi, where Ulysses Everett T. McGill (George Clooney) is escaping from a chain gang, and away we go, sirens washing their clothes in the river, Polyphemus (a greedy Bible salesman), local politics, McGill and his fellow escapees recording a hit popular tune, the ku klux klan, and finally a flooding as part of the TVA.

It's a good job of everything, music, acting, story.  I'm a bit surprised that the Coens got away with some of their brutal southern caricatures, though.

All in all, not a bad way to decompress.

[PatH]

JudeS, I'm with you about all lit up to go for another classic.  We did the Iliad on the old site 5 or 6 years ago, probably too soon to do it again.  I would say it was a bit harder than the Odyssey, not a lot.  But there's a wealth of good books waiting for us to pick one.

[Babi]

 Good luck on your search, FRYBABE. When I see a phrase like "one of the four
great ____ classics",  I am always intrigued.  Nevertheless, 3,000, or even
1100 pages sounds like a major challenge. Especially as I get older and time
gets shorter.

 Oh, definitely, JOAN. It would be much simpler to archive this discussion and
start with a new slate for the next. It would be terribly confusing for a
newcomer, otherwise. 

[ginny]

Thank you all for your great comments. It's been such a pleasure to enjoy our own Odyssey with such a hardy crew!!  We did it!!

Am sitting in Rome in the Termini train station waiting to go to Naples. I love that coda on the Coen brothers movie Pat.   Here's another. Just saw a bearded old guy dumpster diving. He was finishing off somebody's  Sprite.  He had a backpack on which said ZEUS.  
Was quite struck by the modern implications.

You can't get away from the classics references it seems.  

Let's ask Jane to set us up a nominating discussion for the next read!


Thank you all so much for making it so memorable.  I'd love to see us do something Roman next, myself, but we'll vote on it.  

[Babi]

I'm looking forward to it.  Roman sounds good.  I remember we considered
Plutarch's Lives; I still like that idea.

[jane]

I'll set up the new Suggestions for Classics Book Club discussion out on the main menu.  Everyone can put his/her suggestions there then.  I'll post the link when the job is done.



jane

[BooksAdmin]

http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=2395.msg124420#msg124420

for nominations for the next Classics book to be read together.

[PatH]

In answer to Ginny's question, yes, the introduction to Lombardo was well worth reading, and added some insights.  Maybe I'll even read the Spark Notes.

I'm not sure if I already said this or not: Thank you so much, Ginny and JoanK, our fearless leaders.  I can't even begin to imagine how much work went into digging up all that material, finding the pictures that added so much, and thinking of all the provocative questions and penetrating analyses.

And what a bunch of fellow discussers!  We really did it well, talking about everything imaginable, and putting all the characters under a microscope.  We can truly feel now that we have made The Odyssey ours.

[JoanK]

It was GINNY who did all the digging and found the wonderful pictures and quotes. I was just along for the ride. And what a ride it'd been!! I'm sure I'll remember this discussion for years. You all have been wonderful!!

Now it's time to pull up our chairs around the pool (the fire for those of us South of the equator) and talk and dream about our next journey.

[Gumtree]

Hey, wait for me ... I've just made it through the posts. Sorry I wasn't able to participate much - life imploded round me half way - Luckily I have read it before so although I didn't read it all this time the brilliant discussion brought it all back to me and made me rethink lots of stuff...thanks everyone.

I do want to say special thanks to our great leaders Ginny and JoanK - super job as 'youknowwho' would say.

[JoanK]

So glad you caught up with us, GUM. Any thoughts to share? Let's transfer over to the new site now:

http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=2395.msg124420#msg124420