Classics Book Club, The

[ALF43]

Welcome to

We have a winner!  Our first ever read in the Classics Book Club   to begin on February 15,  with the initial segment, schedule still to be decided but we'll break it up into parts,   of Homer's Odyssey!

If you have been casting about for a great book to lose yourself in this winter, you've come to the right place! Help us decide on a schedule, how far DO we want to go that first week? How to divide this? Whose translation do you have?

**NB: There are probably 50+ famous translations of the Odyssey. If you find the translation you have does not speak to you or does not convey to you what's happening, this book is too fabulous to waste on an old outdated translation: try a new one.

Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey

"I haven't felt this excited about a prospective read/discussion for years."--- Gumtree

  

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  

Everyone is welcome!  




I am so impressed with the magnitude of knowledge that has been brought to this discussion already and we're not even "into" the book yet.
I am the neophyte here and like Gumtree said, "It is all Greek to me."
I love to learn and already my notebook is full of posts that are not only educating and enlightening me but that stun me as to the depth of wisdom you are offering.  I am sooo enjoying this.  I like Rosemary's idea of getting Greek for Dummies and will check it out today at our library.
Thank you all, be patient with me.  There's not much that I can bring to this extraordinary discussion but I assure there is much that I can take from it and learn.

[Gumtree]

Ginny What a joy to read through Tennyson's Ulysses - thanks for posting it.  I know that one by heart - it was one of my 'party' pieces in the dim distant past when my extended family gathered together and the elders were 'treated' to youngsters strutting their stuff.

It truly is a great poem and, as Roshanarose points out, has relevance now in the 21st century - no doubt we will find the Odyssey itself has bearing on our lives and the world around us today.

Hey ALF Don't sell yourself short -, you have so much to offer this or any other discussion as we all well know- for starters you bring the wisdom of your life's experience which is no small thing... and the desire to learn... and ... and...  What a journey we're all going to have.

Barbara Glorious scupture - thanks...

[Roxania]

I read the interview with Lombardo that Ginny posted up (in #314), and really was reminded of the importance of viewing the work as a performance--so naturally I decided to pick up an audiobook, which is as close as we can get to that experience (and I'm an audiobook junky anyway).  I've got the Lombardo translation of the printed book (and have greatly enjoyed the introduction).  However, Lombardo's translation is read by Susan Sarandon--but Fagles's is read by Ian McKellan, and I would happily listen to him read the oration at a dog's funeral.  I think it will be very interesting to read one translation and listen to another.

I've also picked up Margaret Atwood's "Penelopiad," a re-imagining of the story from Penelope's point of view, which came out five years ago as part of the Canongate Myth Series.  

[rosemarykaye]

ALF - I feel just the same as you - I read the Odyssey at school, can't remember much about it, and can't read of word of Greek, ancient or modern.  However, I'm still looking forward to this - I feel it will start to fill a great lacuna in my knowledge, and there are a lot of those that I am hoping to fill over the next x years.

So don't worry, you won't know any less than me - probably more - but it will still be fun, and we have the benefit of all these well read and knowledgeable people to enlighten us!

Roxania - the thought of Saint Ian reading anything is irresistible.  I am going to have to have a look for that audiobook!  I saw him once on stage at Stratford, many years ago (I think I was about 18), and have never forgotten it.

Rosemary

[JoanK]

Just getting back online after having to abandon my old computer and buy a new one. I'm stunned by the posts and how much we've learned already.

Roshan: I love your picture of the volcano, and the description of what happened to Crete. And this "dark age" of greece. when people forgot how to read and write! Homer was written then?!? Strange.

I guess people now think Homer was one person? When I read "the Iliad" my gut reaction was "this isn't all written by the same person".

[BarbStAubrey]

I wonder Joan if as the story was passed along it was not only added to but possibly different voices made parts of the story sound more interesting and it was those voices that remained with the story  - just a guess...

I did not know how tight Greece was with Egypt and how much the Egyptian monarchy glorified the Greeks.  I did not know there was such an exodus of Greeks to Egypt during the early years after Alexander the Great.

I am so glad we are doing this and I ended up coming up out of my cave to join - this whole period of history is coming alive and it goes hand in glove with all the intensive research I have been doing about how the church formed its attitude about women. Seems  Aristotle had a lot to do with what is currently the attitude among the Curia in Rome. I know Aristotle is much later but the whole of early Greek history is finally being charted in my head.

[roshanarose]

Barb - I see your cave as being cosy and warm in tones of red and gold and you sitting in your comfortable chair surrounded by poetry books, and several (maybe hundreds) of other books that have been loved and read by you.  Your bedside table is crowded with books all asking to be read.  I feel your contentment - yours is not a Winter of Discontent.  As long as you have your poetry in your mind and at your fingertips you will always be "complete".

As the Romans "borrowed" from the Greeks, so did the Greeks "borrow" from the Egyptians.  You can see that one of the oldest type of statuary in Greece (called "kouros" singular)is borrowed from Egyptian statuary by the stance.  One foot slightly forward, no facial expression except for the later "archaic smile", but quite stolid and chunky. No sign of the genius of a much later sculptor by the name of Praxiteles. Pronounced Prax - i - teel - ees.  A search will reward you with his work.  

Also after the death of Alexander the Great his conquered lands were divided up among his generals.  Ptolemy was the general who inherited Egypt.  Cleopatra was as much Greek as she was Egyptian thanks to Ptolemy's bloodline. This would also account for the exodus from Greece to Egypt.  Alexandria was Alexander's city in Egypt and evidently the most heavily influenced by the Greeks.  I know that you appreciate Cavafy as I do.  It may come as no surprise that although Greek, Cavafy was from Alexandria.  That shop full of those beautiful things was (maybe still is) in Alexandria.

  

[Babi]

Ah, yes, BARB. It was one of the interesting quirks of history
that after Alexander's conquests, the Egyptian rulers were the
Greek descendents of Ptolemy, including the line of "Cleopatra's".
(Ah, I see Roshana has addressed this, too.)

[ALF43]

I read that Alexander the Great kept a copy of the Iliad, given to him by his mentor tutor Aristotle, with him at all times.  He kept it under his pillow with a daggar.  He wished to convey a heroic image of himself comparable to Achilles in Homer's Iliad.  His aspirations and his behavior represented the ultimat expression of the Homeric vision a a conquering warrior.

[ALF43]

I have one basic question that I must ask before reading anything else about the Odyssey.

Was Achilles the young man (of the Iliad) who went off to war now returned with the name of Odysseus?  Are they one of the same.  This is probably laughable but it sounds like the same dude with a different name.  Help!!

It appears that it is also questionable whether Homer wrote both of these stories. Did he or didn't he?

[ginny]

Andrea, no, Achilles did not come back from the  Trojan War. Odysseus in fact saw him in the Underworld in Book 11.

Odysseus's Roman  name was Ulysses. He was known as the "wily" Odysseus, he did a lot of fast thinking on his feet.

Your question about Homer writing both the Iliad and the Odyssey is a good one.  We probably need to address the Homer issue  in general, what do you all find in your researches?

[caroljwl]

i'm excited about this book and the discussion that will ensue.  just today i started reading the robert fagles' translation and am pleasantly surprised at the richness and beauty and the fact that i think i can do this!

[ALF43]

Thank you Ginny, I was almost shy (believe it or not) about asking that fundamental question but it kept popping up in my head.  Achilles didn't return and Odysseus was gone from his home land for 20 years or so, is that right?  I thought maybe Odysseus was the adult version of Achilles, returned safely after 20 years.  
Thank you for that clarification, now I can move on to another fractured thought.   Thank you as well, Gum, you made me feel better.  With all of my life's experiences, the closest I ever came to understanding anything Greek was the Gyros I bought.
I'm sure I will have you all nuts before long.

[roshanarose]

Hi carol

I think you need to post this in the Classics Book Club as well.  We are discussing the Odyssey there, and a lively discussion it is.   

[roshanarose]

Not at all Andrea - We are all learning as we follow Odysseus on his Odyssey.  In our own way we are all Odysseians.

[JudeS]

Re the dates of the Iliad to the Odyssey........Knox, the scholar who wrote the intro to the Fagles translation says as follows:
"..in the second century BC a number of scholars, known as chorizantes-"separators"-recognized that the Odyssey was composed later than the Iliad but suggested that they had different authors. This is the position taken by many modern scholars , who find significant differences  between the two poems not only in vocabulary and grammatical usagebut also what they consider development from the Iliad to the Odysseyin moral and religous ideas and attitudes......
That the Odyssey was composed later can hardly be doubted. For one thing , though it takes for granted the audiences knowledge of the Trojan War saga but of the particular form it has been given in the Iliad, it carefully avoids duplicating its material. Incidents from the tale of Troy are frequently recalled, sometime in detail, but they all fall outside the time frame of the Iliad.........."
The author goes on for a number of pages with examples that prove his theory.  But of course everyone with a theory about anything picks and chooses his facts to support his theory. I tend yo believe his theory in this case.

[roshanarose]

Some time ago one of our number asked for a list of the characters in The Odyssey.  I have found  www.bookrags.com/notes/odyssey.  Hope it helps.  I am sure that there are other sites that have this list as well.

Eeeek!  They want to charge $16.95 (I assume US dollars) for that list.  If you are keen click on Lesson Plans - Character Descriptions.

In addition, a nice printable PDF list of characters is to be found at www.angelfire.com/ego/westmontdrama/ODYCharacters.pdf.  This is probably the one I will use.  No charge on this one.

You too can get good results if you type in the Search box "character list the odyssey".  There are lots more choices.

The good thing about our group is that no one needs to hear our attempts at pronunciation, we just need to type the names.  If you do want pronunciation guides that can also be found online or you can ask us here.

Good Luck

[bookad]

JudeS--I find in the introduction to my translation written in 1946..

    Homer's Iliad and Odyssey have from time to time afforded a first-class battleground for scholars. In the nineteenth century in particular, German critics were at endless pains to show not only that the two works are not the product of a single brain, but that each is a piece of intricate and rather ill-sewn patchwork. In this process Homer disappeared.
     By now he has been firmly re-established on his throne and his readers may feel as sure that they are in one man's hands as they do when they turn to As You Like It after reading King John.

so in the 1946 Penguin edition translated by E. V. Rieu he feels it had been resolved to be the one author 'Homer' at least that is what I got from reading....did they change their mind in the subsequent years ??

Deb

[ginny]

i'm excited about this book and the discussion that will ensue.  just today i started reading the robert fagles' translation and am pleasantly surprised at the richness and beauty and the fact that i think i can do this!

Welcome, Carol! We are so glad to have you here!  I predict you will love this!

On the question of Homer's writing the two books, (the Iliad and the Odyssey),  the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature says what Jude quotes Bernard Fox saying but then adds: "Other modern scholars, the 'unitarians,' thinking that the differences between the two poems can be accounted for by their very different subject, believe, as the ancient Greeks themselves believed, that both poems are the work of one man...."  This is 1991. So there's another side.

And then they go on to tackle the  "so- called 'Homeric Question,'" (was there a Homer at all). I did find a very interesting set of questions, part of a college course in the Odyssey, and one of them was astounding, I  had never heard of the issue, so we may want to consider it somewhere along the way too. (I do hate, and I may be the only one, but I do hate to read a book and MISS what apparently is a major point, which everybody else seems to know).  I am sure with this group  (I can see already) that won't be an issue,  I do hope.

JoanR: Ian McKellen! I am still trying to get over his Richard III, his voice would be perfect!

Thank you for the character lists, RoshannaRose. I'm still compiling the lists of who has what translation (I'm slow) but when we get them they will be in the heading.

Achilles didn't return and Odysseus was gone from his home land for 20 years or so, is that right?

Yes.  The Trojan War took 10 years and then he wandered for 10 as well, if I have that correct. The Odyssey opens, does it, 10 years after the fall of Troy to the Greeks? Is that right as well?

 I need to get the dates straight on the fall of Troy and Homer, too. Need to throw Heinrich Schliemann in the mix. Am I the only one here with his book?

I have found THE most incredible site of illustrations for the Odyssey as I said earlier, but they are just  blowing me away, 2000 years of art based on the Odyssey, we could literally put up a new one a day for whatever duration we'll have here. What fun!

How different these books are, the different translations! Some have an "Argument,"  or sort of background outline or summary  in the beginning, of what's coming, some don't.  Some have it set off, some don't. Of the 4 translations I have I believe I like Pope's the best, he sets it off in small type in an indented paragraph.

OH my word, check that, I have 5 translations,  and the 5th is,  holy smoke, THE Dr. Murray's.  He calls Odysseus, "the man of many devices..." I like that. This is in a Loeb edition where the Greek is on the left and the translation is on the right.

Lombardo calls him (this is the first line) "the cunning hero."

Pope goes all out: "The man for wisdom's various arts renown'd."

What do you have in your books for the "wily Ulysses?"   It's really quite eye opening to me to see what the others have, each one seems to add to the collective consciousness here and expand the idea of whatever they are saying. How different they are!

Lombardo in his article did me a big favor, he freed me from the need to get hysterical about one word....I loved his  idea of it's not dictionary to dictionary (paraphrased). Love it.

I am so glad we're doing this! I feel quite excited, as we prepare to embark.

The gangplank does not go up til the 15th, so you've plenty of time to get your passport and those cereal bars you are never without  and get on board!

Everyone is welcome!

[roshanarose]

Ginny - I agree with you that things are shaping up nicely with The Odyssey.

20 years does seem to be an inordinately long time for Odysseus to be away from Penelope.  10 years fighting in the Trojan War (see Iliad). According to the list of characters I have given a link for, above, there is a very short summary of each character.  Odysseus spent 7 years as a "prisoner" of Calypso until she is convinced to release him by Hermes, messenger of the gods.  Odysseus also spent a year with Circe as her lover.  He may have dallied with Nausicaa for a while, and also travelled to the Underworld in Book 11.  It was a long, although obviously not always arduous journey, for our hero.

As for Schliemann the only book I have about him is called "The Lost Treasures of Troy" by Caroline Moorehead.  It is a wonderful book.  ISBN 0 297 81500 8.  It is generally acknowledged by scholars that the ruins of what Schleimann thought was Troy were actually those of a much earlier settlement.  The same was the case in Myceneae, on the plains of Argos, mainland Greece.  I, too, have gazed upon the face of Agamemnon at the National Museum in Athens.  The Bronze Age exhibition there is my favourite.  A place to visit before you die, as they say.

What book are you referring to Ginny?

[ALF43]

Thank you everyone for all of this information.  I read scanned a book last evening entitled Why The Greeks Matter.  Actually with all of the books that I had set aside @ our library, I somehow picked this one up instead.  It's a fine book that did help explain some of the Greek importance and the ties into the Iliad and the Odyssey for me.
Ginny:

I do hate, and I may be the only one, but I do hate to read a book and MISS what apparently is a major point, which everybody else seems to know).  I am sure with this group  (I can see already) that won't be an issue,  I do hope.

No! You are not the only one.  How many times I have been reading away the postings and I stop dead in my tracks with a brilliant "HUH"??
"What did I miss?  How could I have missed that?  Oh my goodness, YES!"
That is the reason I do read with SeniorLearn.  You each teach me something and more over, something in a way that I will forever remember.

My book fortunately has the whole cast of characters that the author has called "Principal Personages of the Odyssey.  I thank you sir.

Oh by the way,  HAPPY BIRTHDAY GINNY (ON THE 4TH)-
Friday is your day we will celebrate.

[JudeS]

For those who are visual learners , like myself, you can put into Google "Voyage of Odysseus".  The first title heading is "Travels of Odysseus".
What will appearwill be a map of the first leg of the voyage (Ithaca to Troy). Press NEXT and you wil get a map of the next leg of the journey, Troy to North Africa.  Next to each map is a synopsis of the adventures on that part of the journey.  These maps continue until Odysseus finally arrives home after 20 years.

[JoanK]

Jude: I can't seem to duplicate your exact finding. Could you post the link?

I've been reading the introduction to Fagles. In addition to the points already mentioned, he raises a few others.

He talks at length about the question of when The Odyssy was written down. Some scholars feel that its form shows that it was part of the oral tradition, passed on orally through the generations. Interestingly, the evidence for this comes from Yugoslovia, where the oral tradition is still alive (or was at the time the work was done). There are other such place, too.

But of course, other scholars disagree (when don't they?) and feel it was written fairly early.

Another thing that interested me: I had always heard comments saying that The Odyssey was far inferior to the Iliad. I wondered about this: the Odyssey is more an action/adventure story but still.

Fagles dismisses this, saying it is only ecause The Odyssey deals with more everyday things. We shall see for ourselves.

[roshanarose]

GINNY - HAVE A GOOD ONE ON THE 4TH.

[bookad]

JudeS-thank you for the posting of the maps lining the routes taken by our team of travellers thru the years...it is very helpful and little things like this and the naming of the prominent characters in my copy of the book and their connection help me immensely....
I initially tried to look up some maps on the internet and almost got involved with a virus or something, good thing my husband always comes to my rescue at times like these

Deb

[ginny]

Thank you Jude, that's a lovely site of maps and explanations.

Thank you all for the birthday wishes as well!

RoshanaRose,  the book I was thinking of is Schliemann's Discoveries of the Ancient World,  by Dr. Carl Schuchhardt, which was sort of... co authored by Schliemann, or at least heavily collaborated on,  and published right after his death. Naturally it has his passion and his point of view which is quite different from how history has treated him  in it and describes with 300  photos his discoveries at Troy, Tiryns, and Mycenae. It sort of leaves out some of the...er...disastrous...possibly dishonest? work he did in excavating the site at Troy. And of course, what is it, 9 or 11  levels have been found? But the point is they are ON the spot where he said Troy was.

Apparently he destroyed several levels of Troy,  himself,  in his quest to find the "real Troy."  History has not been kind to him, (nor apparently has he been forthcoming with it), but he was a fascinating character. I think his story of using the Iliad when archaeologists laughed at him and "Troy" was thought of  as a myth and fairy tale,  TO locate and actually  find the real site of Troy at Hisarlik, an amateur at his best,  is pretty incredible. The book also talks about Calvert and his finds, it's quite interesting.

It's a wonder somebody hasn't made a movie of it. It was spoofed along with Howard Carter's find of Tut's Tomb in the wonderful Motel of the Mysteries by David Macaulay, who made heyday with the famous photo of Sophia Schliemann wearing the treasures found at Hisarlik.

I too have looked upon, in the fine museum in Athens, at  what Schliemann called "the face of Agamemnon," (which is also on the book's cover) which we now  know  is not, having been proved to be of a different time. And I seem to vaguely remember how you can tell the time periods, something about the flatness of the face, etc., etc.,  but I'm afraid that has gone with the many  other  interesting winds which have blown by since.  hahaha.

[ALF43]

TODAY IS THE DAY OUR LEADER WAS BROUGHT FORTH!!


HAPPY BIRTHDAY DEAR GINNY!

[Mippy]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, GINNY !

[Gumtree]

DITTO

[BarbStAubrey]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY  TO YOU -
TRA LA LA  LA - LA LA...
HAPPY BIRTHDAY DEAR GINNY -
HAPPY BIRTHDAY  TO YOU

[bookad]

Many Happy Returns

[bookad]

http://www.classics.upenn.edu/myth/php/homer/index.php?page=sounds

found this interesting site with pronunciations of names in the odyssey, and another page shows routes of the odyssey plotted by 2 people, they are not exactly the same, but there is an explanation
http://www.classics.upenn.edu/myth/php/homer/index.php?page=odymap


just surfing around trying to get a feel for this book and timeline

Deb

[Frybabe]

Ginny, felicem diem natalem

[ginny]

Gracious day! Thank you all  so much!!  Makes the day just that more special.

[JoanR]

Here I come trailing at the end to say:  HAPPY, HAPPY BIRTHDAY, GINNY!!!!!!!!!!

Am finally back on line - the storm took down a bunch of branches along with our electric and cable lines.  We got our electricity back late yesterday, but the cable company has been pretty overwhelmed - but here we are at last.  Nasty stuff coming tomorrow but only a little nasty, I think.
My audio of the Odyssey came today!  Yay!

[roshanarose]

bookad Good site.  Well spotted.

[PatH]

I'm finally back online with a new computer, just in time to wish Ginny happy birthday and welcome Carol.  I'm eager to start.

[JudeS]

Ginny Has a birthday
So what shall we say?
Hurrah! for the Captain of our ship.
She'll lead us on this great trip.


Joan K.
To get tothe link I mentioned put into Google:
Voyage of Odysseus

A list of titles will appear.  The first one is  "Travels of Odysseus" Go to this title and a map will appear of the first part of the journey of Odysseus. Under the picture is the word  "next'  .Hit that and get the map and synopsis for the next leg of the journey.  Continue through each leg of the journey by pressing next under the pictures of the maps.

[Gumtree]

JoanK - He talks at length about the question of when The Odyssy was written down. Some scholars feel that its form shows that it was part of the oral tradition, passed on orally through the generations. Interestingly, the evidence for this comes from Yugoslovia, where the oral tradition is still alive (or was at the time the work was done). There are other such place, too.

I haven't got Fagles so don't know what he says about the  ground breaking research done in Yugoslavia by Millman Parry and Albert Lord in the 1930's. Parry actually recorded the Yugoslav 'singers' of the oral traditions on steel discs (I think). He died soon after and his work wasn't published for many years (perhaps 1960s). Lord went back later and undertook more work in the field and he has been followed by others since.

The main thing shown by their work is how the oral tradition is passed down being adapted and modified by each generation. No two 'singers' ( or perhaps in Greek 'rhapsodes'),  sing the same song or text and the song is never the same twice. The Yugoslav singers used a similar kind of formulaic phrasing as occurs in Homer - 'the rosy-fingered dawn' etc  -  as a base on which to build their stories.

- When their theory was applied to the Greek and Homer in particular the similarities were striking. What it suggested is that the oral tradition of the Greeks had been in practice for centuries before 'Homer' was committed to writing and that what we know as 'Homer' was the result of the work of generations of rhapsodes and that the work had been distilled over centuries to keep pace with changing social mores and sensibilities. As Gilbert Murray points out in his Rise of the Greek Epic there are signs of successful expurgations in the text which deal with practices the Greeks no longer tolerated such as torture, insult to the dead,  mutilation, poisoned arrows etc. which suggests the changing nature of the 'songs'  Nonetheless the work of these ancient poets was to record history.

As for the date of Homer  - it seems to be that every generation of scholars pushes the date further back - I have no idea of the opinions of the current crop.

I must say that SeniorLearn has much to answer for - apart from having me crawling around on my knees searching for long neglected books it  has opened a 'tin of worms' which is seething in my head- disjointed and possibly confused memories of long ago reading. I guess it will do me good.

[Gumtree]

In regard to the oral tradition of Homer, Gilbert Murray also says to the effect that the main conclusion he draws from the opinions then available (1930's) is that the poems cannot have been committed to writing in their present form till a much later date than is usually supposed ... he deals with changing forces on the language over time, incursions of other peoples etc which bought other elements to bear and over time thus enriched the poems.  

He also refers to Dr Parry's work as illustrating an "all-pervading influence of tradition and convention on the epic diction, and the vast difference between Homeric and modern conceptions of poetry". ...something we should perhaps bear in mind as we read through the text.

He goes on to say: A tradition is a social fact, based on the unspoken agreement of poets and audiences, from which neither can vary widely or abruptly. And the problem to be understood is how and why through many generations the normal Greek public expected its epic poets to speak in a particular artificial dialect, to use a particular type of simile and description, and to obey certain subtle and probably unconscious rules of symmetry. Certainly the artistic instinct implied in both poet and audience by these facts is very remarkable, but perhaps not more so than the exquisite conventions of symmetry and proportion which were traditional in other forms of Greek art, for instance in architecture and the carving of bas-reliefs.

So many avenues to explore - I can see there won't be many chores getting done around here for quite some time....