Author Topic: Classics Book Club, The  (Read 492837 times)

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #400 on: February 07, 2011, 07:29:49 PM »

Welcome to
The Classics Book Club, Beginning February 15 with


**NB: There are probably 50+ famous translations of the Odyssey. If you find the translation you have does not speak to you or does not convey to you what's happening, this book is too fabulous to waste on an old outdated translation: try a new one.

Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey



Book I: The Situation at Home:


Penelope at her Loom
John William Waterhouse
1912


Discussion Schedule:

February 7-14: Background, history, The Trojan War,  the Oral Tradition, Homer, the dates, let's get the backgound established.
February 15-22: Book I




"I haven't felt this excited about a prospective read/discussion for years."--- Gumtree

 
Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny 



Everyone is welcome! 




A little more on the meaning of kleos -

"kleos
{kleh'-os}

A word in Ancient Greek with the origin of "that which is heard" and literally means "fame in epic song" or "fame sung far and wide," although it is more loosely translated as simply fame, glory, or reputation.

The concept of kleos is related to the tradition in Ancient Greece of the bard as entertainment. Tales were told via oral tradition, and news and history spread through songs which were sung by the bard as after-dinner entertainment.

Homer's the Odyssey is a story about the kleos of survival and coming home--that is, earning kleos in a non-war situation. Odysseus earns kleos through nostos (homecoming) after the Trojan War. Odysseus also earns kleos by being a just king and benefitting others in his kingdom of Ithaca.

The idea of kleos is even more prevalant in Homer's Iliad. Agamemnon and Achilles discuss different ways of dying or being laid to rest, where kleos is from death and funeral. Eventually Agamemnon, murdered by his wife Klytemnestra and her lover Aigisthos, has no funeral, thus no kleos; Achilles, on the other hand, has the greatest funeral because of his heroic death in battle, and this earns him the most kleos. Kleos is the driving motivation behind the heroic deeds of the great heroes. In a sense, it is a means to achieve an immortality, a lasting impression. Achilles, the ultimate embodiment of heroism, is given a choice before entering battle.

For my mother Thetis the goddess of the silver feet tells me
I carry two sorts of destiny toward the day of my death. Either,
if I stay here and fight beside the city of the Trojans,
my return home is gone, but my glory shall be everlasting;
but if I return home to the beloved land of my fathers,
the excellence of my glory is gone, but there will be a long life
left for me, and my end in death will not come to me quickly. -- Iliad, IX.411-7 (tr. Lattimore)
As we know, Achilles chooses the first of the two. He dies valiantly in battle in the Trojan War, and his memory lives on."

Source:  www.everything2.com

Perhaps also it is how Kleopatra got her name.  Patra is a place with a magnificent new bridge linking mainland Greece to the Peloponnese. But the -patra part of her name seems more likely to be from "patritha" roughly meaning from a race of lineageThat's my take on it anyway.  Nice name.
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #401 on: February 07, 2011, 07:55:40 PM »
Dana That enclitic ^ (which may also be rounder, like a little rainbow) is called a "circumflex" in AG.  MG, fortunately, rid itself of all but acute accents in 1982.  Every word in Modern Greek has an accent, with very few exceptions.  Every word in AG may have three (at least) enclitics.  If you are studying either AG or MG at a formal level, you need to learn the accents/enclitics with the words.  It is a pain, but makes the language sound quite melodic.  Some may adore enclitics and accents, but I don't.  If you want to see how they work in AG, Berkeley University has a very good AG site.


Dana:  I tried to type the circumflex above a greek letter, but failed.  I am sure there is a method, though.  Just needs patience.



How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #402 on: February 07, 2011, 08:09:09 PM »
Idea - look in  your bundle of extras that came with the computer - probably found in programs by hitting the button on the bottom that says start - anyhow there is a link that says 'Character Map' and it is all the various ways that letters can be written with marks above - it also  includes I think it is Greek letters - and mine even has some Arabic letters - you simply pick one save it and then paste the letter in place of the one  you typed and it works.

Jude yes, I think folks like to  feel attached to their past - reminds me of how when we wake someone everyone tells stories of various experiences they shared or of stories of fun or proud moments - I guess when we remember the past in story we are waking the past. I am thinking this story not only allows us to wake past events but along the way we will be touching on ways of life that are easily lost over time.

Roshanarose earning kleos almost sounds like earning coup, where a brave dares danger to touch their enemy.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #403 on: February 07, 2011, 08:16:03 PM »
Barb : Earning coup.  I have not heard that one before.  Is it Native American?  French word though.

I thought of another word similar also:

Kudos
Meaning and Definition
(n.) Glory; fame; renown; praise.
(v. t.) To praise; to extol; to glorify.
Kudos: words in the definition
Extol, Fame, Glorify, Glory, Praise, Renown, To,
Kudos synonyms
Praise,


Barb : Thanks for that hint.

Dana : Some sites use the Spanish "tilde"  ~  for the circumflex. 
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #404 on: February 07, 2011, 10:31:55 PM »
This web site does a wonderful clear job of explaining coup...

http://www.schoolhistory.co.uk/year8links/natives/Nativewarfare.pdf
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Babi

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #405 on: February 08, 2011, 08:11:41 AM »
 Confession is good for the soul, FRYBABE. :D

 There's a tilde (^) above the 6 on my keyboard, Dana, but I've
never been able to place it above a letter. There must be a way,
I'm sure, or it wouldn't be there. I'd like to know the answer to
that myself.

 BARB, thanks so much for that research. I clarifies a great deal
for me. I was thinking a minstrel would be trained to repeat a song/
story accurately, but of course he would have to adjust a song not
to offend his hearers. Minstrels traveled, and the people of a new
country would not care to hear a story extoling the virtues of their
enemies. I appreciated the explanation of warp and woof, too.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #406 on: February 08, 2011, 08:25:00 AM »
Barb - Quite fascinating.  In Australia we have a game called "touch" football  where points are won by merely touching an opponent.  I live and I learn.  That is just exactly the way I like it.

Gumtree - I am so relieved that the bushfires are now under control.  Not much comfort for those who have lost everything, though.

I forgot to mention that "kudos" is also Greek. 
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #407 on: February 08, 2011, 12:43:24 PM »
Dana - found this online - the instructions are more thorough - Babi you may want to take a peek as well since the Tilde on the keyboard will never be placed on top of a typed letter - but it can be accomplished by using your Character Map.

To open Character Map,
click Start,
point to All Programs,
point to Accessories,
point to System Tools,
and then click Character Map.
For information about using Character Map, click Help in Character Map.
For more information, click Related Topics.



“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Dana

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #408 on: February 08, 2011, 01:41:51 PM »
timê
Hooray!!  Look at that!!  Thank you Barb!!

JudeS

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #409 on: February 08, 2011, 02:26:14 PM »
From Knox's intro to the Odyssey:
"In the Iliad Hera and Athena are ferociously bent on Troy's destruction because of an insult to their pride and preeminence-the Judgement of Paris, the Trojan prince, which awarded the prize for beauty to Aphrodite. Poseidon, brother of Zeus,   is equally intent on Troy's destruction, because the Trojan king Laomedon cheated him of payment for building the walls of Troy. Apollo, whose temple stands on the citade lof Troy, is the city's champion, and Zeus, the supreme arbiter, is partial to Troy because of the devotion of its inhabitants to his worship. The fate of the city and its women and children, as well as the lives and deaths of the warriors on both sides, are determined by the gine-and-take of theses divine wills in opposition, by pattern of alliance, conflict, deceit and compromise that form their relationships."

After reading the Archeologic fasts about Troy i.e.that there were at leasr eleven cities called Troy on the same site, and then reading this paragraph I imagined the great minds of Troy (people not Gods) figuring out why there was an earthquake that destroyed their city. These people had no knowledge of Science as we do today and needed to figure out why natural phenomena occurred.Their pantheon of Gods were the answer. What amazing imaginations they had. 

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #410 on: February 08, 2011, 02:57:57 PM »
Gosh what an interesting discussion you're having here! The Indian thing was quite interesting, Barbara, I spent a lot of time on the site. The business about the scalp ties in actually with the ancient Celts, who believed that the head was the dwelling place of the immortal soul,  and to possess an enemy's head was to possess his soul. Somewhere I've got a too graphic illustration of this. Here it is: (this information is from Celtic Warrior 300 B.C-A.D. 100) by Stephen Allen.

On Troy, there's endless stuff written about the Medieval Romance's  treatment  of the Trojan War but I'm not sure myself that the possibility of a war should be written out. There was definitely a Troy, and the date of 1250 seems (Oxford Companion to  Classical Literature) indicated as a "reasonable date for mainland Greece to be making a concerted attack on the city, since after that time Greece herself was involved in the general upheavals of the Mediterranean world which began in the middle of the century. Greek authors gave different dates for the Trojan War, from c 1280 to 1184 BC and even later. Eratosthenes favored 1184.

He worked backwards from the established date of the first Olympian games 776 BC, using the genealogies of the Spartan kings, which gave him 1104 for the Dorian Invasion. According to tradition this happened two generations, i.e. 80 years, after the Trojan War."

When you consider that  Troy itself was held as a fairy tale for years and then was found, and that the eyewitness description of the mushroom cloud (like an umbrella pine)  Pliny gave for the eruption of Vesuvius was laughed at until Mt. St. Helens erupted (now called "Plinian" eruptions) and that Aeneas was thought to be another fairy tale (invented by Vergil this time to explain the founding of Rome,) when just a year or so ago they found Turkish DNA in some bones on the very spot of Italy where he supposedly landed,  which would date from  that period,  I personally am not eager to dismiss the possibility at least of a kernel of truth under all the embellishment that has followed...I mean who can say with definitive proof there was no Trojan War?

What the Medieval Romantics or the Roman poets or any writers thereafter  made of it is one thing, but somewhere it's possible, even if it wasn't what Homer made of it, there's possibly some  truth somewhere underlying it all. Maybe not but  that is what I think, anyway,  never sell the ancients short. It's possible it's all a myth, but nowadays it seems people are over keen to proclaim everything a myth, and I do mean everything.

Thank you for kleos, Dana and Roshanna Rose, that has got to be one of the main  reasons of Odysseus's  journey, and all the epic heroes, particularly Achilles. Whether or not we particularly think that was a good thing, they did, and were willing to die for it. The Iliad really points that out forcefully when Achilles, who knows he'll die, decides which would be better.  I liked that bit about the poem actually conferring it, Dana, after all, we are reading it in 2011. :) Kleos  and the homecoming, very big themes here I am thinking.

Gosh what a rich discussion this is already, loved the weaving,  and the links, Barbara. I also like the weaving in of this ancient myth with some later bards, etc., even American Indians. That U of KY stuff is likewise fabulous, thank you for that link, also,  Frybabe.


Ginny, it looks like Furman has some involvement. Isn't that where you were teaching an evening Latin class a few years back?


I retired from Furman in 1981, and have taught Latin there since 2005 in their Osher Lifelong Learning Institute  (in the day time). :)

Gumtree, I loved your tackling the Epic poem, what a good job, thank you!

So we have a date of 1250 (or 1184 or later) for the putative  Trojan War. I had thought 1250 was the fall of Troy, I'll have to look deeper. But it's in that range. And we've got Homer in the 8th C BC, right? We probably need to put this stuff up in the heading somewhere.

Andrea thank you for the interesting website on mythology, they sure nail the facts,  don't they? That's a good and succinct explanation of the Trojan War, why it happened, why the Greeks all turned out to attack Troy and even touches on Helen, how she went with him and left her husband (Menelaus) and her  daughter behind. Which book is it? The Iliad? Where she second guesses and admits her willingness to go? She wasn't abducted, she second guesses this decision  and she did pay for that later. It's either the Iliad or the Aeneid.

Golly we've covered a huge amount of background stuff already.

What  is missing? What don't you understand?  What questions do you have before we start? What would you like to hear more about, we've got some wonderful researchers here, I love the dynamic.

What are we hoping, each of us, to gain out of this reading? What have we not covered yet?






BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #411 on: February 08, 2011, 03:29:51 PM »
Whoops - Ginny you posted while I was writting this - another addition to what warriors believed - the Celts now - and  yes, I think it is the Daoists that proclaim everything is a myth and isn't it the Buddhist that talk about the blink of the eye being a  universe coming and going.

Jude yes, amazing and what it reminds me of is the intrepidity of man - I think of my childhood before medicine as we know it today - this is before penicillin was available to the public although made available during WWII to the troops - think of the time when we had no antibiotics except sulphur - the medical profession still did not know how all the bodies systems worked and for many the cure was to pray - to take trips to  holy places - Lourdes has all sorts of crutches, slings, wheelchairs left as folks willed so hard for a cure that today we can hardly believe this was true - that anyone could have such faith in an unseen God. That this power we call God was able to cure. We still pray when something beyond our ability to easily cure is in question.

And so I am thinking that just because the Greeks named this unseen power with several names and gave each named identity part of the powers we think of as all stemming from one God and just because their visual of what this unseen God or, in their case Gods looked like, they were probably weaving a story to explain just as so many of the cultures through out the world have their creation stories and stories of how fire was brought and how the winds came and how our need for adulation, love, greatness, power and strength came and how we best use these characteristics.

Many crown Homer and the Oddessy with laurels as defining Greek culture and what we seem to be realizing every culture is riddled with religion that attempts to explain the unknown and holds together the ethics of a people. My take is that all religions are better understood if the stories are read as a myth so that we can un-knot the truths or underlying principles by reading the symbolisms within these stories.

My curiosity now is to learn more about how the early Greeks practiced their beliefs - there is more than enough information defining their gods and later, when temples were built there is information about how the various gods were venerated but how did the average Greek incorporate their belief in their gods in their everyday life - that is what I am hoping we may get a clue about reading the Odyssey but more I can already see the symbolism of travel to understand yourself and to learn where your load star is located.

The book on symbolism that I often quote from says:
Journey Heroic journeys symbolize crossing the sea of life, overcoming its difficulties and attaining perfection; they are also transformation symbols; the search for the lost Paradise, initiation; facing trails and changes in the quest for perfection and realization; testing and training the character; passing 'from darkness to light, from death to immortality'; finding the spiritual Center.

Such journeys are those of Heracles, the Argonauts, Ulysses, Theseus, the Knights of the Round Table, etc. The symbolism of the journey is also bound up with that of the crossroads and the choice of the left-hand or the right-hand path.

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #412 on: February 08, 2011, 03:38:04 PM »
"Thank you for kleos, Dana and Roshanna Rose, this has got to be one of the main  reasons of Odysseus's  journey, and all the epic heroes, particularly Achilles."

Not only the heroes that we think of. When we read the Iliad, it was notable: each warrior that fell was given his paragraph, describing his deeds and how he died: dozens and dozens of them. It made tough reading at times (remember "his liver landed in his lap") but it was clear (I think Homer even said) that this recounting was the way of giving each fighter his kleos, and that this was important.

There is nothing like that in the Odyssey.

rosemarykaye

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #413 on: February 08, 2011, 04:24:19 PM »
Barb - Lourdes is still very much a place of pilgrimage. My Irish friend Marian spends part of her holidays every year accompanying sick people to Lourdes; they have a real faith in the power of prayer and in God. She says it is a wonderful experience.

Rosemary

PatH

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #414 on: February 08, 2011, 10:41:31 PM »
The discussion of kleos fits in with our old discussion of Iliad.  Dr. Lombardo said that Homer respected everyone and everything, animate and inanimate.  And it’s true; they all get their say.  We not only get at least the parentage of everyone killed, and maybe other stuff about who they were and what they did, but we get the same respect for inanimate objects.  On the battlefield, one goddess throws a rock at another (I think it’s Athena throwing at Aphrodite, but I’m too lazy to look it up).  Anyway, we get the history of the rock, how it had been the marker in a border dispute, etc.  Even a rock has kleos.

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #415 on: February 08, 2011, 11:50:08 PM »
Ginny - In answer to your question asking what we haven't covered yet, I though an introduction to the players, and other details,  in the Iliad leading into The Odyssey might be a good idea.  I have listed the summary in point form using "The Lost Treasures of Troy" by Caroline Moorehead as my guide.  I will start with a quote:

1.  "When Reading Homer, I feel as if I were in a balloon, raised far above all earthly things, posed in the intermediate space, between heaven and earth, where gods flit to and fro"  Goethe.

2.  The gods that mostly "flitted" in The Iliad were Zeus, Athena, Hera and Aphrodite all of whom had their favourites among the mortal players.

3.  Troy was said to be a city near the Dardanelles in Asia Minor (now Turkey).

4.  King Priam was the king of Troy.  Priam had fifty sons and twelve daughters; his eldest son was Hector, his second Paris.

5.  On mainland Greece, the most powerful ruler was King Agamemnon of Mycenae.  

6.  Agamemnon's wife was Clytemnestra.  Agamemnon sacrificed their daughter, Iphigeneia, in order to have good winds to take him to Troy.  Clytemnestra's revenge for Iphigeneia's death is described in the Iliad when Agamemnon returns to Mycenae with his "war prize" Cassandra.

7. Clytemnestra's sister was Helen.  Helen was married to Agamemnon's brother, Menelaus.  After Helen escaped / was kidnapped from Menelaus' (or Agamemnon's) house by Paris, Helen and Paris set sail for Troy.

8.  Infuriated,  Agamemnon seeks revenge for Paris' betrayal and breach of hospitality by assembling an army from 164 places in Greece.  The troops set sail from Aulis, a bay in Euboea (an island north of Athens).  They sail in "black ships".

9.  The Iliad opens with Achilles, Prince of the Myrmidons, quarelling with Agamemnon over the slave girl Briseis as to who she "belongs" to.  Briseis is part of the legitimate spoils of war.

10. Angry, Achilles returns to his men and refuses to take part in the battle of Troy.

11.  The remaining Greek army marches towards Troy to battle it out and get Helen back.  

12. Hector  proposes that his brother, Paris, should fight it out with Menelaus (Helen's husband) and the winner will claim Helen.  Paris was defeated but doesn't die due to the intervention of the goddess Aphrodite.  Strictly speaking Menelaus should have claimed Helen and a peaceful resolution agreed upon.

13.  Aphrodite was not happy with this resolution and sees to it that the battle continues.  

14.  It is only after his best friend (some say lover) Patroclus was killed that Achilles joined the fray.

15. The Trojans, who had been outside fighting the Greeks, now retreated inside the walls of Troy.  Only Hector remains outside.  He faces a one on one fight with Achilles.  Achilles wins and Hector is mortally wounded and dragged back to the Greek camp.

16.  During the night King Priam visits the Greek camp to beg for his son's body.  Hector's body is returned to Priam, cremated and his ashes placed in a golden box and buried beneath a grave of stones.  "And so they buried Hector, tamer of horses."

17.  The Iliad ends before Achilles is shot in the heel by Paris and the fall and sack of Troy.

18.  The tale continues in "The Odyssey" as Odysseus and fellow Greek companions sail back to Greece.


I enjoyed putting this together thanks to Caroline Moorhead's excellent book.  It put a lot of things into perspective or me.  I love summaries 8)  I hope that more participants will comment on this board often.



How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

rosemarykaye

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #416 on: February 09, 2011, 02:27:03 AM »
Roshanrose - that is a fantastic summary - thank you so much!  I know I will be referring to it daily once my book finally arrives.  I have thrown in the towel with WH Smith (and written them a v cross letter), and am awaiting the Amazon delivery now.

I did all of these works at school, but I don't think I ever really worked out who was related to whom - now, thanks to you, I know!  Aphrodite was some character, wasn't she?  Such a beautiful name and such a lot of meddling!

Rosemary

kidsal

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #417 on: February 09, 2011, 02:39:43 AM »
Discovered on a book shelf today a copy of The Odyssey translated by George Palmer with Intro by Robert Squillace.  So now have two -- one by Pope and now Palmer.
Finally got my computer up and running again after five days of withdrawal pains.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #418 on: February 09, 2011, 02:51:14 AM »
great run down roshanarose - thanks - seems to me there was a movie of the Iliad not too many years ago - in fact I think I may even  have a copy - hmmm maybe it was longer than I think because in my minds eye I am seeing it as a tape and not a Cd.

I always thought it silly the rational for deadly fights and wars in these ancient tales - it always seemed that they had a women at the root of it all - I need to look now at what it all symbolized because the tales themselves I am sorry they just seem silly to me - I mean I know lovers run afoul of family and husbands big time however was Helen married - I guess so but she appears to be a pawn - anyhow to go the extremes of revenge and rage with clanking swards and blood streaming that are part and parcel of these stories - my word...  ;)  :o
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

rosemarykaye

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #419 on: February 09, 2011, 05:00:13 AM »
Barb -  last night's episode of the series we have here at the moment about gypsies/travellers showed the men engaging in a fist fight - apparently this is a regular occurrence and can go on for anything from 5 minutes to 5 hours.  People sometimes bet thousands of pounds on the outcome.  The programme said the fights can be about anything, but are often about "honour".  Women are not allowed to be present.  One of the travelling men - now "retired" from fighting, said that he had bought his car (he gets a new one twice a year!) and his house (they live on a static site and he runs it for the council) from the proceeds of fights in his youth.

There was also an interesting bit about memorials - the oldest son of one of the head men had been killed along with his cousins in a car accident some years ago.  Every year the entire clan assembles at the graveyard to remember them with a big party - I must say it was a lot jollier than the memorial services that non-travellers tend to hold.

Rosemary

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #420 on: February 09, 2011, 08:31:41 AM »

Barb - I don't want to appear sexist - BUT - a lot of what happened in the Iliad, e.g. Achilles spitting the dummy over Briseis, is about Agamemnon getting the better of him, and showing off his "prize" publicly.  Achilles' ego (another Greek word - meaning an emphatic "I"). Also women were, and still are, blamed for many of the catastrophes and wars in history, and displays of machismo in general.  The creation story is a perfect example.  Wasn't it all Eve's fault?  And what about Pandora?  Her curiosity released all the ills of the world except Hope.  Then there was Lilith - and the list goes on.

The cynic in me thinks that there was quite a bit more to the Iliad than Helen being the scapegoat for the Trojan War.  Think about it?  Women in general were not regarded very highly in the Greek world (sad but true).  I doubt that a canny commander like Agamemnon would go to war over a woman.  After all he sacrificed his daughter for favourable winds.  I am still searching for a source that sets out to prove that the Trojan War was more about the acquisitiion of territory and greed for power and booty than anything else.  Would the Greeks have waited outside the walls of Troy for approximately ten years waiting upon the whims of Helen?  Somehow I doubt it.  Keep an eye out and tell me what you find.

Aphrodite, to my mind, was the Greek equivalent of Mary Magdalene.  The goddess/whore complex personified, as is so often revealed with her trysts with Ares.  The adulteress.  If you read further into the Iliad you will find that she had a "close" relationship with Paris, due to an unfortunate choice he made in deciding who was the fairest of the goddesses.  Most certainly a contest one should steer well clear of.

Barb - Perhaps the movie you saw was "Troy" with Brad Pitt as Achilles, Peter O'Toole as King Priam and our own rather dishy actors, Eric Bana as Hector and Rose Byrne as Briseis.  Brian Cox played Agamemnon with his usual flair.
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

Gumtree

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #421 on: February 09, 2011, 09:25:40 AM »
Roshanarose Thanks for the refresher on  Iliad - just a few words like that and it all rushes back so clearly.

Have you read David Malouf's Ransom which deals with the wrath of Achilles and Priam seeking the return of Hector's body. It's written in Malouf's usual spare and poetic prose - a short book but I enjoyed it immensely and have given a couple of copies away as gifts.

Had a horror start when I came in tonight and turned on the computer - nothing happened. DH was summoned, fiddled around and hey presto! back in business again - I hope.
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

Babi

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #422 on: February 09, 2011, 09:34:34 AM »
 Thanks, BARB. There's still so much I don't know how to do on my
computer, but since I know enough to play games and function here,
I haven't put in the time and effort to learn more. Lazy, I know.

 GINNY, I've always been inclined to think there would be a basis
of truth for all the ancient stories, however much they may have
been embellished since then. Whenever some evidence emerges in
support of one of the 'myths', I am quite pleased.

 
Quote
nowadays it seems people are over keen to proclaim everything a myth, and I do mean everything.
  I know what you mean. It's become too common to declare anything that doesn't fit one's own opinions or view of the world as a fabrication
by one's enemies. 

  From the Morehead summary ROSHANA gave us, it appears Agamemnon's rage was directed more toward Paris' betrayal than Helen's. He went to war because the Prince of Troy had insulted and betrayed him.
  ROSHANA makes the point beautifully in her last post. Eve has been
a sore point with me for some time. I hasten to point out that Eve
was "deceived"; Adam knew perfectly well he was doing something wrong but did it anyway!

"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #423 on: February 09, 2011, 03:19:50 PM »
This discussion is like a treasure trove. Every day, I go in and find more great things waiting.

Thank you, thank you, fot that summary, ROSE. It's perfect. And the Odessey takes up right where the Iliad leaves off, so keep your eyes open. remember, at the end of the Iliad, we are still in the middle of a war, and don't know yet who will win or what's going to happen to everyone.

Rosemary: " Aphrodite was some character, wasn't she?  Such a beautiful name and such a lot of meddling!

Yes, all the Gods are meddling in the Iliad. Most of what happens happens because the gods are meddling.

More later -- have to run.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #424 on: February 09, 2011, 04:03:20 PM »
 ;) - the universal consciousness of man had to include Flip Wilson - the devil [gods] made me do it...!
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Dana

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #425 on: February 09, 2011, 04:13:31 PM »
I think women are so often at the center of myths (Eve, Pandora, Helen) because men are unconsciously afraid of them--bringers of life as they are.  And because they are the bearers of life, annually prior to birth control, they either died or had their lives taken up with the new generation,so, physically weaker, busy with the enormous ongoing task of raising the young, they didn't have much time to get into fights or rule the world (except through their men, which I think they did more often than we give them credit for).  And men were able for these reasons to subjugate them,keep them in their place, make sure the son was theirs....etc.

I have always taken it for granted that the reason for the Trojan war was trade and expansion, don't know where I learned that from tho, but probably at school.

sandyrose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #426 on: February 09, 2011, 04:36:58 PM »
Yes! ...my books arrived..one translated by Rieu and one by Lombardo. 

I have been busy reading all your wonderful posts and putting links in my favorites---  learning, learning, learning. 

Thank you  roshanarose for the summary.  I printed it and find it very helpful.

And Deb I also like the Rieu translation.  I liked it right off, but your descriptions sold me on it.  Besides if we sit in the back row and I forget my book, I can peek at yours :) 



JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #427 on: February 09, 2011, 04:47:29 PM »
Kidsal: two copies! Let us know which you like better.

Rosemary: are Gypsies called travelers there? Is there still the prejudice that there used to be against them? There are a few here in the US, but you rarely see them -- for some reason, a lot of them go into the car repair business.

Women as scapegoats. Ah, yes, so familiar!! Sigh!

But Homer gives even the scapegoats (Briseis and Helen) a voice, and we get to hear how they feel about it..

Dana

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #428 on: February 09, 2011, 04:54:48 PM »
I actually don't think women are scapegoats, just victims of their nature, as are men of-course, different nature, but equally victims.

Jonathan

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #429 on: February 09, 2011, 04:59:14 PM »
Sure, it was the promise of booty that brought so many Greeks to Troy. There were many profitable diversionary raids up and down the coast during those ten long years. Things came to a glorious, epic climax with the argument over booty in the form of the beautiful Chryseis. Helen, after a fashion, was only being used.

Jonathan

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #430 on: February 09, 2011, 05:08:55 PM »
We're all victims. It's  a very current notion. And Homer is to blame, with making his stories so otherworldly.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #431 on: February 09, 2011, 07:03:54 PM »
    Greek philosophy considered woman to be incomplete human beings.
      
Quote
‘The relationship between the male and the female is by nature such that the male is higher, the female lower, that the male rules and the female is ruled.’  - Aristotle

Aristotle (384 BC – 322 BC) Greek philosopher, student of Plato, teacher of Alexander the Great. In metaphysics, Aristotelian’s profoundly influenced philosophical and theological thinking in the Islamic and Jewish traditions in the Middle Ages, and it continues to influence Christian theology, especially Eastern Orthodox theology, and the scholastic tradition of the Roman Catholic Church. With the push for women priests, Aristotle's philosophy is the object of active academic study today.

According to Aristotle, women are inferior because of a defect.
Quote
“Women are defective by nature” because they cannot produce semen which contains a full human being. When a man and a woman have intercourse, it is the man supplies the substance of a human being (the soul, i.e. the form.) If conception occurs, the woman provides only the nourishment (the matter).
 
The fundamental principle for Aristotle – there
Quote
are two factors or components in every being, ‘form’ is superior to ‘matter’, sexual reproduction was considered beneficial because it demanded that the one who gives the ‘form’ (the male) be separate from the one who supplies the ‘matter’ (the female). Thus, the ‘lower’ is not mingled with the ‘higher’ in the same individual.

  
Aristotle subscribed to what philosopher Caroline Whitbeck calls the ‘flower pot theory’ of human generation.
Quote
Since the female is deficient in natural heat, she is unable to ‘cook’ her menstrual fluid to the point of refinement at which it would become semen (i.e. ‘seed’). Therefore, a woman's only contribution to the embryo is its matter and a ‘field’ in which it can grow. A woman's inability to produce semen is her deficiency. ‘A woman,’ Aristotle concludes, ‘is as it were an infertile male’ (Generation of Animals, I, 728a). ‘A male is male in virtue of a particular ability, and a female in virtue of a particular inability’ (Generation of Animals, I, 82f).

This link is about the roadblocks women hurdle who are attempting to change the Christian Church's point of view but it does give the background voiced by Aristotle and continues with other early church leaders having their opinion floating in the mix
http://www.womenpriests.org/traditio/inferior.asp

Women were held responsible for bringing original sin into the world, and for being a continuing source of seduction therefore woman are to be in a state of punishment for sin.

Tertullian, 160 – 220 AD, a philosopher/theologian admired by early Church Fathers – later, because of his view on Jesus as God not man, he was excommunicated – that did not seem to stop his views on women to continue to this day by the Curia to be front and center –

Although, few practice "Churching" any longer, as a young Catholic Mother I was expected to partake of that purification blessing after the birth of my babies which allowed me to attend Mass again and to receive Holy Communion which stems from Tertullian philosophy.  

Tertullian say, – “Do you not know, woman, that you are (each) an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too.”
    
  • “You are the devil's gateway!
  • You are the unsealer of that (forbidden) tree!
  • You are the first deserter of the divine law!
  • You are she who persuaded him (Adam) whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack!
  • You destroyed so easily God's image, man!
  • On account of what you deserved - that is, death - even the Son of God had to die!"
  • “How could such sinful creatures be channels of God’s grace?”

Women were considered ritually unclean because of their monthly periods. According to Church Fathers St Augustine of Hippo and St Jerome, all sex is tainted with sin and a woman’s womb is “simply revolting”. e.g., Rules in the diocese of Canterbury (690 AD):
Quote
“During the time of menstruation women should not enter into church or receive communion, neither lay women nor religious. If they presume to do so all the same, they should fast for three weeks”.

“In the same way those women should do penance, who enter a church before their blood is purified after birth, that is for forty days”.


These were cultural prejudices held for thousands of years before the Christian Church – they became theological prejudices assumed in Church doctrine as they were entwined for centuries in secular law. These are ACTIVE beliefs that women are confronted with especially among those who attempt to share their spiritual calling with others.

Yes, there were a few women throughout history who achieved remarkable success in governess and if a woman was wealthy she had the power to influence the politics of the Secular and the Church however, the average women within her own home did not have much more power than a slave – pillow talk is a fine way to feel good that women did influence society however, that kind of power was no better than a favored slave or concubine who were the favored runners between Cardinals and men of property during the Middle Ages.

Obviously I have little truck with the concept that men and women are equal victims in their power, based on gender type cast. We will just have to agree to disagree on that one. [/list]
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #432 on: February 09, 2011, 07:25:56 PM »
Jonathan! Is that really YOU?

Every day I come in here and every day I think here we go setting out on a great  voyage, where's our sailor in the Crow's Nest? hahahaa Wasn't that you?

And here you are!!  I hope you're signing on?

RoshannaRose, I agree with SandyRose (welcome back  Sandy! You and Deb will  have to share the Rieu with us, I don't have it. I MUST get these translations straight!), I like your summary, RR, but best of all I love your  Goethe quote.

Sally and Gum, welcome back from the Land o Defunct Computers! Another strange and interesting translation.

 Babi, I agree!

I liked Barbara's idea of what she hoped to get from the discussion, too.

Here's exactly what I want from it: quoted by RoshannaRose:


 "When Reading Homer, I feel as if I were in a balloon, raised far above all earthly things, posed in the intermediate space, between heaven and earth, where gods flit to and fro"  Goethe.


That's exactly what I want. I want to go back, back in time, away from 2011. I want to hear those doors slam in the palace again, it's more dramatic than The Curse of the Golden Flower and every bit as good. I want to understand at least ONE of the questions  on it asked in the faculty paper for a course I found online. I know we can do it with this wonderful group.

I did like PatH and JoanK relating the kleos issue to the Iliad. A lot of the Odyssey does refer back to the Iliad and I think it's a great thing to be able to make those comparisons, but if you haven't read the Iliad, not to worry, we've had two great summaries put here already, you'll probably know more after this than if you had read it (which of course you may well want to do too).

There's a lot here to like already, I am enjoying your comments tremendously.

I LOVE the way you're all talking to each other. Might JoanK and I beg you to keep that up? This is a huge group, so intelligent, please please continue to engage each other, it makes it SO interesting! It's a privilege to read it,  much less to be a part of it.

This is a great undertaking and we begin discussing  Book I next Tuesday. As you read if there is ANYTHING you want to ask about,  please do, there are lots of people here who will know.


 There are plenty of copies online, and everyone is welcome.



roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #433 on: February 09, 2011, 08:59:28 PM »
Ginny - I experience what Goethe wrote, but replace Homer with "When in Greece...".  Greece has that effect on me.  

Dana - The old adage "Keep her barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen" was in place for such a long, long time.

Gumtree - I do have "Ransom" by David Malouf in my bookcase, but it remains on my TBR pile.  Perhaps this is a good time to read it.  Thanks for the reminder.

and Barb - Ouch! All so true about Aristotle.  I will comfort myself with the way he is perceived in Monty Python.  Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

Dana

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #434 on: February 09, 2011, 09:24:10 PM »
You have to see Aristotle reacting to his unconscious fear of women by putting them down with fancy speculation--then it falls into place and you can dismiss his theories.  Of-course the church etc was unable to see through him....but why??.....all men, driven by the same  fear, that's why !!!

bookad

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #435 on: February 09, 2011, 09:56:13 PM »
hi there

regarding a summary of The Iliad, I found in the library the other day a copy of the book for children....by Diana Stewart 44pages, so it is a good summary of the book, and it gave me a good feel for the prelude to our present read of The Odyssey..

how does one begin to keep all these gods straight though

....I did read online of a helpful person giving his knowledge about
the Odyssey, and having a love of this type of read in his youth --- his parents would quiz him and he would be able with very few clues to win a guessing game as to which god am I guessing about...in fact there seem to be quite a few game ideas online revolving around mythology and the gods...wonder why this never triggered my interest prior to now...

amazing where paths lead....

Deb
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

bookad

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #436 on: February 09, 2011, 10:48:08 PM »
I hate it when posts get lost in cyberspace, here goes again

think I cleared up a mystery for myself, couldn't figure out why the penguin edition of a 90's translation of the odyssey read different from my own copy  a 1947 edition...father /son...the son has revised here and there so they read much the same....

according to Wikipedia article, the father started translating during the bombing raids in London in the second world war...to his family

I would cite the reference, but if I go back to link to it I will lose this message, so hopefully will figure this out later or if someone can help me....but I did find a reference giving  good rating to the 'Rieu' translation' of the Odyssey--stating it went according to the translation as well as the style of prose (though I thought it read like a novel, and thats why I liked it)...glad to have read this as I thought because I could understand the translation it must not be very good, if that makes any sense...some of the translations I read a bit of were so hard to understand

 
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #437 on: February 09, 2011, 10:50:03 PM »
Oh dear Jonathan - do  you feel as if you walked into a den of vipers all hissing - re-reading  your post though I sense you too see the irony in the very "current notion" - Pax vobiscum - it is just now some of us will not have it.

My Michael Wood book, In Search of the Trojan War arrived this evening - I do like his specials on PBS - the only place he traveled that I thought he was not enjoying himself was the series he did in South America - he seemed cranky, exceptionally tired and put out - but the other specials were pure magic filled with a new appreciation for the place and history. Seems like this site, Troy is almost back to ground zero because of all the archaeological digs, most before current technology that would not destroy as much and do a better job or cataloging. - ah so

I wondered - who among us has visited the location thought to be the Troy of the Trojan War? I know from the poetry discussion that you roshanarose, have visited Greece and have a deep affection for the history having attended university as an adult to study the language and culture. Did you by any chance visit this location? I am most curious - in the first few pages Michael Wood says that Homer says there is a constant wind that blows - is that true?

I love the description of the distant mountain being the one believed that Poseidon stood upon and watched the Trojan War. I am reading and sensing the gods are thought of as human but I am having fun with this in my head and imagining as if the gods were unseen - that in our minds eye or the mind's eye of the characters in this story they see the gods like we often think of saints or the Blessed Virgin or even God, looking down on us when we call them to mind. Like a good omen or like many who have statues of saints or crucifixes over their beds to keep them safe and so Poseidon is looking on from a nearby distance, with all his god like powers keeping an eye on this war.

Please lets hear it - who among us has visited Greece and where in Greece related to the Odyssey have you visited? And who among us studied the language? Ginny would ya - would ya - would ya - pleeease, sugar and sweet molasses too - a reference list of whose who among us.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

kidsal

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #438 on: February 10, 2011, 04:05:47 AM »
I studied the Greek language here on SeniorLearn.  Really miss the lessons.

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #439 on: February 10, 2011, 07:14:59 AM »
Great posts here. Lots to say but am on my way out the door, back asap.

In order for people to answer Barbara's question about where Odysseus/ Ulysses traveled, we need a map showing where he supposedly  went, here's one for our discussion, we'll see how accurate it is as we read:




On the other hand:



We'll soon find out which is more accurate! And there are more!~

THIS one is interactive and is from the University of Pennsylvania and is probably more accurate than any!


http://www.classics.upenn.edu/myth/php/homer/index.php?page=odymap


But you notice they don't have Sorrento or Capri here long thought to be the home of the  Sirens. Here's what they say:

Quote
Map of Odysseus' Journey

  Odysseus' journey does not map with certainty onto any known geography. Homer doesn't specify exact locations. This has not stopped Homer's readers, ancient as well as modern, from attempting to reconstruct his travels by real world landmarks in the Mediterranean -- and it won't stop us! While the map produced here should be used with this caveat, it will give a useful guide to keeping his wanderings straight, and a workable approximation of the physical template onto which Homer and his audience might have projected the hero's travels. We can be relatively sure that Homer's audience of sea-faring traders would have done a similar exercise, trying to match Odysseus' travels with their own experiences in the Mediterranean. Read books 8-13 carefully, and gather as much empircal data as you can. Try to produce your own rough map of Odysseus' journey. If you find evidence that argues against the map produced here, please feel free to produce it.