Classics Book Club, The

[Babi]

Welcome to

The Classics Book Club, Beginning February 15 with

**NB: There are probably 50+ famous translations of the Odyssey. If you find the translation you have does not speak to you or does not convey to you what's happening, this book is too fabulous to waste on an old outdated translation: try a new one.

Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey


Book I: The Situation at Home:

Penelope at her Loom
John William Waterhouse
1912

Discussion Schedule:

February 7-14: Background, history, The Trojan War,  the Oral Tradition, Homer, the dates, let's get the backgound established.
February 14-21: Book I

"I haven't felt this excited about a prospective read/discussion for years."--- Gumtree

  

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  

Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:

kidsal: Alexander Pope, George Palmer
Dana: Fitzgerald
Gumtree: Butler, T.E. Lawrence, Cook, Rieu
EvelynMC: S.H. Butcher and Andrew Lang
Mippy: Lombardo
Roxania: Lombardo
PatH: Lombardo,
JoanR: Fagles
Frybabe: Butcher and Lang
Deb (bookad): Lattimore, E.V. Rieu
roshanarose: T.E. Lawrence.
JudeS: Fagles
Babi: Robert Fitzgerald
Mippy: Pope, Lombardo
ALF43: Butler (corrected in edit)
Babi: Pope? Fagles
BarbStAubrey: Fagles
straudetwo: Lombardo
rosemarykaye: Fagles
caroljwl: Fagles
JoanK: Fagles.
sandyrose: Rieu,Lombardo
ginny: Lombardo, Fagles, Pope, Murray, Butler



Oh, BARB. Did you really have to post all that. It's quite put me out
of humor. I do wish some of those old ranters on male superiority
could visit us today. They would no doubt have heart attacks...and
receive very little sympathy.

  I like the first map, GINNY. I can read that one! It is clear that
Odysseus was near home at Pylos. I'll be interested to explore why he
was then shunted off on that tremendous detour.

[roshanarose]

Barb - Χαίρετε. Unfortunately I have not visited Hissarlik, the site Schleimann identified as Troy.  Neither have I visited the Ionian coast which comprises the islands that Odysseus visited, primarily, on his way home to Ithaca.  There is so much to see and do in Greece for the tourist or the classicist.  I HAVE visited Mycenae, and a beautiful place it is.  I can offer you pictures of that awesome site through Flickr.  There has been some sort of "osmosis" occurring between me and Greek history for a long time, and the Bronze Age is my favourite area of study.  This love, this obsession of mine with Greece, is inexplicable.  I just know that when I am away from Greece I am incomplete.  A kind of primal memory drives me.  It is no burden.

Delos is a sacred island quite close to Mykonos.  Mykonos is an island anything but sacred.  I have made a point of avoiding it.  Pylos is a long way south in the Pelopponese, and my journeys have not taken me that far, but I know it was a part of the Mycenaean hierarchy.  I have been to Knossos and would find it difficult to forget such an incredible site.  The word "incredible" somehow does Knossos no justice.  Some say that Sir Arthur Evans created Knossos to suit his imagination.  If this is so, he may have succeeded, but the site is able to stand alone on its own merits.

Ginny - Doubtless, Sorrento and Capri are not mentioned as these places did not exist in the Bronze Age.  At least not under these names.

[ginny]

Even tho Sorrento has been settled since 600 BC, (certainly not the  Bronze Age!) but  maps today sometimes use modern names for the old place names, perhaps, so that people can make the connection in 2011 where they used to be, it would be good to have both on the same map. Sorrento (or Capri, that area) has long been associated with the Sirens. Of course nobody knows where, really, he went, they have to "guestimate,"  hence the differences in all these maps.

Here is another (!) map from wesleyan.edu, their Sirens can be seen here below Ischia, on the Galli islands,  pretty darn close to Capri, wouldn't you say?

This map shows the sites of Odysseus' wanderings as they have been reconstructed by scholars relying in part on descriptions in the Odyssey itself and in part on the speculations of ancient writers like Strabo and Eratosthenes.

In Book 9, Odysseus begins the recitation of his voyages (page 212), and explains that he was driven by the winds first to Ismarus, the land of the Kikones (1), where he and his men sacked the stronghold but were subsequently attacked.

From there he sailed on, but ran into a storm as he rounded Cape Malea and was driven past Cythera (2) for nine days (page 214). He reached the land of the Lotus-Eaters (3) on the tenth day, where those men who ate the lotus lost "all memory of the journey home" (page 214).
The rest of them sailed on to the land of the Cyclops (4), where, although some men were eaten by the monster, Odysseus and others escaped after blinding the Cyclops. The Cylops prayed to his father Poseidon to be avenged upon Odysseus: "grant that Odysseus...never reaches home. Or if he's fated to see / his people once again and reach his well-built house / and his own native country, let him come home late / and come a broken man--;all shipmates lost, / alone in a stranger's ship&emdash; / and let him find a world of pain at home" (page 228). Poseidon grants the Cyclops' prayer, and this is the origin of the curse upon Odysseus that we read about in the poem's opening lines.

Next, Odysseus and his remaining crew reach the island of Aeolus (5), where the hero is given a bag of winds to aid him in his voyage home. His shipmates, however, suspicious that he is carrying treasures, open the bag of winds just as they are in sight of Ithaca, and are blown off course once again (pages 231-32).

Next, they reach the land of the Laestrygonians (6), another group of giants, who attack the men. More men are lost, and the remnant sails on to reach the island of Aeaea, home of Circe (7). The "bewitching queen" turns some of the men into swine and other animals, but Odysseus, protected by a magic herb that Hermes brings him, is immune to her spells. Circe releases the companions from her spell and gives Odysseus instructions on how to reach home. First, she tells him, he must journey to the land of the dead, the Underworld (page 246).

In Book 11, the journey to the Kingdom of the Dead ( is undertaken, and Odysseus learns from the prophet Tiresias the outlines of the rest of his voyage (pages 252-53).

Afterwards, Odysseus and his men return afterwards to Circe's island (7; page 271), and receive from her further instructions about the journey home.

They start out, passing first the island of the Sirens (9), where Odysseus, lashed to the mast by his companions, is able to resist their allure (page 277).

Then, they encounter Scylla and Charbydis (10), and six men are lost to Scylla (pages 278-79).
They reach the island of the Sun (Thrinakia, 11), which they had been instructed to avoid; but the men mutiny and slaughter some of the cattle of the Sun-god (pages 282-83). This seals their doom: the ships are hit by a storm sent by Zeus (page 283), and the remainder of the men are drowned: "the god cut short their journey home forever" (page 284, line 452).

Odysseus himself is carried back to Scylla and Charybdis, escapes, and is cast up on Ogygia, Calypso's island (13: Sardinia or Malta?). This is where we find him when Book 1 of the Odyssey opens. He leaves Calypso's island in Book 5 and lands on Scheria (14), home of the Phaeacians, at the end of the book.

[BarbStAubrey]

Babi I am sorry you were put out of humor and anyone else who was offended. I only wish those old ranters on male superiority were old and in the attic someplace however, I have several friends in the middle of this fray and within the last 3  years the women religious and convents have had the thumb of the Curia announcing unreasonable demands so that the convents in the US have all banded together in protest.

To have learned just over a year ago the basis for all of this I was stunned - To realize how we are affected still by these beliefs I am outraged - there are too many of us still being damaged by these beliefs to think we can continue to ignore the information because it is uncomfortable -

Believe me, it is more uncomfortable to innocently ask a question of 'why' in a small group setting and  in lowered voice as if a state secret is being shared a priest tells you it is because of our monthly that women cannot be on the alter - And then to realize how programed I am to accept and be quiet till the shock of what I heard and how it was told to me stewed a few days - the research was on - along with much communication contacting those who were and are still affected - enough is enough.

It is nice and easy to think the story of successful powerful women does not fill our bookshelves because we were too busy keeping house and rearing children when if you dig you learn, over and over the stories were squashed - to this day folks are comfortable allowing the confusion to continue that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute in particular the prostitute who anointed Jesus' feet and wiped them with her hair or she was Mary of Bethany, the sister of Martha and Lazarus. Her Bible was not included in the canon just because she was a women - and so, enough is enough.

One of my sisters is doing an outstanding job of adding to our scholarship about women - because of her web site she was recently hosted by UNICEF to speak at the Symposium for Women Philosophers held in Paris last November. Here is the link to her web site.
http://www.women-philosophers.com/

Now back to the project at  hand - thanks so much Ginny for printing the maps - interesting, I wish I had bookmarked it - on-line there is a map that shows the journey with a moving line and where he reaches a port the events are encapsulated in a pop up window. I know it can sound irreverent but I cannot  help how my brain associates with tidbits - the map does remind me of that one picture cartoon, I think it was called Family Circus that showed one of the children supposedly looking for something and the wondering lines of his travel.

Found an on-line copy of one of the travels but not the one I am remembering where one of the children wanders all over the backyard and later, in another he wanders all over the neighborhood...
http://dfc.furr.org/archive/64.html

Never thought before but I guess these wandering's depicted in comics and stories are all as a result of this ancient story, the Odyssey.   hehe just thought I bet lots of us have small Odyssey like journeys as we go to anther room to retrieve something and not only get waylaid because something catches our interest or the phone rings but we have to retrace our steps just to remember what we were going to retrieve.

[rosemarykaye]

JoanK - yes, gypsies are also referred to as travellers here, but most of them are no longer travellers really - they live in their caravans on static sites, usually provided by the local councils, although sometimes the gypsies do own their own land.

There is a vast amount of prejudice against them.  It is very difficult to work out the truth about them - the ones that still move about the country do leave huge amounts of revolting detritus behind them when they leave, they have scary dogs, etc.  The ones on static sites often seem to have vast amounts of money that they cannot possibly have amassed from tarmacking (?) drives, which is mostly what they do.  On the other hand, these programmes have shown that many of them are articulate, reasonable people who struggle to settle down anywhere because even when they have bought their own land, the council won't give them planning permission if they find out they are gypsies.  They are evicted, sometimes with appalling amounts of physical force, by the local bailiffs.

The position of women in the traveller community is, however, almost certainly not what we would find acceptable.  They are not allowed to work outside the home after marriage - which happens very young indeed.  They are expected to spend their days cleaning their trailers obsessively, cooking, etc and generally pleasing their man.  Many of the men, even the young ones, expressed the view - on camera - that they "owned" their women.  There is a lot of domestic violence.  Once children come along, the oldest daughter is expected to take over all of the cleaning, cooking and childcare.  As soon as she gets married, the next daughter is taken out of school (if she was there to start with), possibly as  young as 13 or 14, to take over the cleaning/cooking/childcare role.  As a result, many of the women are illiterate.  They are not allowed to have anything to do with the money - that is considered a man's role; in fact they are not allowed to express opinions that differ from their husband's or father's at all.  Obviously some families are more extreme than others - some seemed to have become a lot more liberal and outward looking, others were still extremely traditional.

This series is attracting an unbelievably high audience - everyone is watching it, although I think most people feel a bit guilty about watching it as well.  Nevertheless, the traveller community co-operated fully with its making, and although they may be illiterate, they are far from stupid.

Rosemary

[JudeS]

All the info is very interesting re the place of men vs. women in these works.  For those who have the Fagles translation ,in the forward he has ten pages (and in small print) about the importance of women in the Odyssey. He gives particulars in every case.
In his opening to this subject he says: "The two Homeric epics are alike in their vision of the Olympian Gods and their affirmation pf the heroic code., but there is one striking difference.  The Iliad celebrates the action and suffering of men at war:.........The few women who make an appearance....are secondary figures who play no part in the main action. But the Odyssey...presents us with a world at peace..........and almost everywhere in this peaceful world,women,human and divine, have important roles.
Some of the women he mentions are :
The sea nymph Ino, Arete and Nausicaa who smooth his path, Calypssso who keeps him prisoner for seven years, Calypso who offers him immortality,Eidothea-daughter of the old man of the sea,Helen, Penelope and on and on.
As we get into the "real action' we will have many men AND women to love and hate.

[JoanK]

Barbara: yes, we have all gone on odysseys of our own -- big or small. There is something very familiar about U's wanderings. Perhaps just that it is like those dreams we all have where we are trying to get somewhere or do something and things keep getting in the way. Or perhaps it's more like our lives.

Ginny: I love the maps-- I couldn't make head or tail out of the ones in Fagles. I think the fact that they are so different tells us that we haven't got a clue.

Funny that one of the maps gives a location for the Underworld and the other doesn't.

Rosemary: interestingabout the Gypsies. Although  they are in the US, they aren't a large enough presense anywhere to enter the consciousness of most people (I think I'm right in this).

JUDE: I haven't finished Fagles' intro yet. I'll look for the women. I'm glad there are more here. We'll have to look closely at their roles.

When we read the Iliad some years ago, we each had to take a part, of a Greek or Trojan person. I took the part of all the women (most of whom are neither Greek or Trojan). It was small enough I could handle them all. If I remember right, Jonathan took the part of the Gods.

Barbara: good for your sister.

[Frybabe]

Barb, I remember the Family Circle maps. I especially liked the ones where to get from point A to point B in the neighborhood, instead of the direct route, the trail led through backyards, the woods, the park, etc.

[Dana]

Hi JoanK I was just reading your post about the maps--re the location of the underworld.  Interestingly, in one of my books it mentions that Mentes the stranger impersonated by Athena says he comes from Taphia.  The Taphians, a real tribe, whose name means "burial people" live up north near the legendary entrance to Hades.  I can't find them on a map, though.
The point being made was not exactly to do with that, but that its an example of how intricately woven the tale is, because that is where Odysseus actually is, when she is visiting Ithaca.  We shall see....!

[ginny]

Since the issue of women has been brought up, I think it will be interesting to see how Penelope is portrayed, 8th C B.C.  She's no push over, by a long shot, this is going to be interesting.

Love all the comments here, how far ranging and interesting.

Joan K, I remember that about the Iliad and taking parts, and the Ancient Mariner, is there any interest here in doing the same?

Deb, sometimes things done for children are better than those done for adults. Here's Odysseus the man of constant sorrows as the Coen brothers named him, online:


http://www.mythweb.com/odyssey/

You all have mentioned so many great books, and films, I hope you will share here what you find in them.

Barbara, in answer to your question, I have not been to Troy but I went a couple of years ago on an archaeological study tour of Greece for 2+ weeks and it was wonderful. We went to Crete and stayed there also, and I'm sure we missed something,  but I can't imagine what, we really covered a great  many of  the classical sites pretty exhaustively. We even went up into Thessaly, known as Aeolia, home of Aeolus, which is in the Odyssey.  Having been to Meteora, I can see that.

Greece is  a magic place. I saw no wine dark seas and don't remember any wind particularly except on the coast and the boat rides, (that doesn't mean a thing, it may  be windier than Oklahoma) and what I do remember other of course than what we went to see,  is we climbed and climbed and climbed stairs and steps and what seemed like mountains continually. Love the Greek people, loved the food, the museums were spectacular, got my share of the local pottery, other than this, I have no experience with Greece.  It's a place like any other which you like (how many times do some of us go to NYC a year):  you'd need to stay a long time and it would never be enough.

RoshannaRose, that's why I have gone back to Italy as part of every trip for 24 years, the "Goethe" effect. I have  lost count of the times I've been to Pompeii, but it's always more than once a trip.    Always something new to see, and to learn and experience.

I guess the ironic thing is this year I was going to do another archaeological trip;  this time, believe it or not, it was the Roman ruins from Alexandria and Cairo Egypt and along the North African coast, including Leptis Magna and Tunisia. Can I pick em? hahahaaa Maybe NOT? hahahaa I'm glad I'm not there now.

[roshanarose]

Barb - Odysseys Around The Hearth.  I like it.  Sometimes I don't even need a phone call to make me forget what I am looking for.

I have two stories about MCPs, then I will leave it.  The first is about my darling Daddy.  My husband and I were living in Brisbane and Mum and Dad were coming to visit from interstate.  About one month before their arrival my husband had bought a 3/4 size pool table with a slate base.  A beautiful object, indeed.  This was about the time when Pot Black was so popular.  The game played was snooker, (similar to billiards, but the balls are not numbered and the rules differ slightly)and I became addicted to practising playing pool/snooker.  By the time my parents arrived I was hot! as far as snooker was concerned.  I challenged my father to a game of snooker.  He looked at me aghast and said "Women can't play snooker.  You will tear the baize".  I said "Come on Daddy."  He agreed reluctantly and I beat him soundly.  We played three more games after that, and I beat him every time.  After the last game he was looking a bit sheepish and I reminded him of what he had said about women and snooker.  I then added as the final thrust - "Daddy.  What makes you and me different has nothing to do with playing snooker."  I have had cause to use that sentence, modified accordingly, many times since that long ago game.

The second MCP to challenge me about being a woman, so therefore useless, was my FIL.  We had joined MIL and FIL with some academic friends of FIL.  He decided that he wanted to show off at my expense.  He gave me a bottle of wine to open (before screwtops were the go on wine bottles).  Then rushed across to get his friend, saying "This will be funny".  I asked him politely why it would be funny, and he said that I didn't have the genes to open wine bottles.  I told him I didn't need an opener and opened the wine bottle with my teeth, a trick I had learned as a student.  His male guest loved it, Wade (FIL)skulked off and, most unusual for him, kept his mouth shut for the rest of the evening.

[Babi]

 Oh, BARB, I wasn't offended by your post. I was irked reading those
condescending, insulting passages from the supposedly great minds of
old. Your sisters site is impressive. I would like to hear the accepted
definition of 'philosophy' that she attributed to a woman (unnamed, or
I'd look it up for myself).
 Amazing, isn't it, ROSE.  I assume men learned some of these ideas
from their Daddies and have never bothered to question them. Isn't
that the way most old misconceptions and prejudices get passed down?

[Mippy]

Good morning!
My book arrived, the Lombardo translation, with a wonderful 18-page glossary of names, as well as extensive suggestions for further reading and a good map of Homeric geography.
The introduction by Sheila Murnaghan is over 60 pages, and well worth reading!

Ginny ~  That was a wonderful map you posted.  Would it be worth a link in the header?      
I've written down the post number, #442, for reference and have save the map in my documents.
 
 

[JoanK]

GINNY: I love your voyages. You always share them with us, so I feel I've been there too. The one time I was in Pompeii was in 1963: they didn't have many of the things excavated yet. my indelible memory though is of a house of ordinsary people. Theroomswere so small my 6 foot son would have to lie down diagonally in order to fit.

ROSE: I love your stories about MCPs!! They are funny, because you won. I wasn't so lucky. I was a math major in college and took many graduate courses. But when I applied to graduate school, the Department head said no, because women can't do math.

 "But I took three graduate level courses from you and got As in all of them" I said.

"That's true, but women can't do math".

Even with mathematicians, logic is no match for prejudice.

(I later got my degree from a different University).

[bookad]

Ginny-were you compiling a list of who had what translation of 'The Odyssey'?

I have acquired a copy of Richmond Lattimore's translation and am glad as I felt I was missing something not having a poetical format  to follow, it keeps tabs on the lines i.e. 5-10-15.....and so on, also with chapter headings have a brief description of what each entails ...so I intend to follow with the Rieu, and Lattimore editions

following all the information and enjoying this more and more I must say...

why do you think so many people keep re-translating this story...always needing to improve on someone else??...or just so much new information comes to light and gives new insight into Homer's book

all the maps, lists of the Gods, and people involved, plus a synopsis of the Iliad --all this prelude; never thought I'd get involved and actually want to move forward with the interest I have developed

thanks to all
Deb

[roshanarose]

JoanK - I haven't told the stories about when I lost.  There were many of them.  Good on you for eventually proving that MCP wrong

Deb - Comments like yours make all that promotion worth while.

[Babi]

JOANK, I do hope you sent your old dept. head a copy of your diploma.
I wonder what he meant by 'do math'?

 It's a good thing so many of you have introductions, and guides/maps/
lists, etc.  My old Classics edition has the translated Odyssey...period!
Now I'll have access to all the goodies you all will be sharing.

[Frybabe]

I finally got around to reading the preface to the Butcher and Lang translation. It is a short piece. They promote the theory that Homer wove together various old tales into one book using Odysseus as the main plot devise to do so. They believed, with a few exceptions, he did a masterful job of it. The bits that didn't quite mesh well were the bits that others have pointed to as being the work of more than one author. The translators pointed to older tales from around the world (including Aztec and South Seas) that were essentially the same (or very, very similar) as the different adventures in The Odyssey to support their theory.  They also briefly mentioned their research on how Minstrels would tell their tales, modifying them slightly as they went depending on their audience. In that way, they explained differences and distortions between tales.

[ginny]

Ok now here's our very poor list, please correct it!  I went back 456 posts but didn't find  conclusions for everybody, we had a lot of discussion on what's out there and the different translators and some would say I'm going to get XX but then quote YYY so it is a tad confusing but that's a trip, you've got two trips, the one you plan and dream and the one which actually happens, often something quite different, so in this way we're right on target.

Please correct/ add to this list?

Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:

kidsal: Alexander Pope, George Palmer
Dana: Fitzgerald
Gumtree: Butler, T.E. Lawrence, Cook, Rieu
EvelynMC: S.H. Butcher and Andrew Lang
Mippy: Lombardo
Roxania: Lombardo
PatH: Lombardo,
JoanR: Fagles
Frybabe: Butcher and Lang
Deb (bookad): Lattimore, E.V. Rieu
roshanarose: T.E. Lawrence.
JudeS: Fagles
Babi: Robert Fitzgerald
Mippy: Pope, Lombardo
ALF43: Butler (corrected in edit)
Babi: Pope? Fagles
BarbStAubrey: Fagles
straudetwo: Lombardo
rosemarykaye: Fagles
caroljwl: Fagles
JoanK: Fagles.
sandyrose: Rieu,Lombardo
ginny: Lombardo, Fagles, Pope, Murray, Butler

Now this is obviously  NOT everybody, if I've left your name out I am sorry, please refresh our memory here or provide us with the latest info, and the translators here MAY not be correct! Please correct the list  and add your name and translation(s), looks to me as if we have a super representation of everything out there!

[ginny]

Thank you JoanK! . The one time I was in Pompeii was in 1963: they didn't have many of the things excavated yet. my indelible memory though is of a house of ordinary people. The rooms were so small my 6 foot son would have to lie down diagonally in order to fit.

You were there at a pivotal time. In 1967 and 1969 the Villa  Del Pastore, all 124,000 sq feet of it, was discovered. Excavation work still continues on the other mega mansions of Stabiae, it's estimated there are over 8 palatial villas and 50 rural villas so far. The residential huge complexes, palaces really for the rich, make Tiger Wood's new incredible house and Bill Gates's houses  look like small change.  There's the Villa San Marco's  65,000 sq feet, (and the recent thought in the last couple of years because excavations are jingling there's an entire wing left uncovered, possibly another 90,000 sq feet,  and the Villa Arianna at over 140.000 sq feet.   These things were  so large they are breathtaking to visit.  Plenty of elbow room. Many had their own thermal baths,  and I saw in one, the Villa Arianna, a small raised  tank/ pool  painted red for  fresh fish right outside the kitchen.

Deb, yes, thanks to your reminder, I just posted a list of the translations, thank you for repeating the  Lattimore and the Rieu. I notice Lombardo gives a nod to Lattimore.  This is such a fascinating discussion I keep going off on different tangents, I'll get that up today.

Mippy, the map in 442?  Sure but I better put them all up as they are all different; some of them don't have all the places!  I just had somebody in the Latin 101 class send me an antique map of the area with place names on it, perhaps that would also be interesting. We may have a problem following along with no map. hahaa or even with one! We can suss it out together.

Joan K and I, while our ship here is bring provisioned for our long (I do hope it's not 10 years) voyage, and while you're all climbing on board and finding your quarters, (complainers get to row, this is not the Queen Victoria, hahahaa)  have  been pondering how to attack this discussion, how to pose questions (we start Tuesday!), what to do.

Questions to me make it seem like a class. That's not the experience I want this time.  I'm always looking for the "perfect" book discussion. I kind of like the idea of a voyage of discovery, everybody chiming in as something strikes them as Deb just did, ask the question YOU have or like Frybabe just did, put something the ...Introduction says in YOUR book...or like Jude has done, bringing things she's read in her Fagles introduction, or  Barbara has done with her Michael Wood, or  Roxania with her "Penelopiad," or Rosemary  Kaye with her Greek for Dummies or Gum with her burning the midnight oil, everybody bringing something to the table of their own, sort of like a feast, and then we can respond and sample this or that offering and talk TO each other and see what we make of it.  Like a real conversation?

I can't think of a better group to try this new experiment with. After all there are hundreds of Odyssey  Study Guides out there, maybe we together can produce something even better when we're thorough, just thru engaged conversation.

To do this, we must all respond to what's said here, so grab somebody's ideas and hang on!  Let nothing go unremarked?

To ME this is a very enjoyable discussion already. I love it. I love coming in here, it's so interesting just to read the different viewpoints.

What do you think about putting up points of interest from you in the text of the conversation itself rather than in the heading?

Deb has posed this one already: why do you think so many people keep re-translating this story...always needing to improve on someone else??...or just so much new information comes to light and gives new insight into Homer's book


What do you think? Do your Introductions address why your translator has undertaken to improve on the great Lattimore?  We're talking opinions here, not proof. If you saw that list that Deb posted of all the translations of the Odyssey including some very recent, why a new translation?
Why follow Fagles? Is it because in his interview available on the web,  he says the Odyssey is primarily a love story, that that should not be forgotten? IS it? He's one of the few who says that, we'll each decide for ourselves WHAT it is at the end. What IS it? Let's keep that one in mind somewhere.

 I'm actually quite interested in the latest translations. I think I'll order one, I'll go back and get Deb's list and pick one of those only a year or so ago, why would you follow the greats?  What do you have to say they didn't? What do you know (as unlikely as it might seem) that they didn't? I have nothing but respect for the old classicists, the Dr. Murrays, most of them have never been equalled. Or have they?

I think that's an excellent question, Deb. How would you all answer it?

I love it.  This, so far, to me, is the dream of a book discussion. The only thing it lacks today is YOU, and your thoughts, which we long to hear.  Our collective ESP can't hear you muttering dire imprecations over there, so type away so we can know where you stand. hahaha

Join in, post your thoughts whatever they are, your questions, whatever they are, what you've found, and let's see what happens. We begin on Tuesday with Book I, which is only (in my book) 14 pages. A nice start. What shall we make of it?

I've got my passport. Unlike a couple of  trips I've taken I do have my credit cards and some money. I've got my IPodTouch so I've got no end of books to read and reference so long as the battery holds out,  (do we have electricity on this ship?). Does anybody have any illustrations of what the ship Odysseus sailed in might actually look like?

We've got our books but what we want is somebody to talk WITH about them.

But will we get stranded? Will we land in a Tunisia or an Alexandria or worse,  will we be bewitched?  Will we not want to come home? Will we crash on the rocky shores or encounter strange people who will threaten or even kill us?

I would think it would rather be the norm than the reverse that sailing off to war in 1250 BC did NOT carry  the assurance that you'd get home? Think about it. Think about battlefield triage. Andrea is a nurse, think about war wounds and no anesthetic, ER or triage units.

Unlike Gilligan, Odysseus has been gone for 10 years when the story opens. How long in the United  States  what's the law, is it 3 years before you are declared dead? What is it in the UK? In Australia? It's been 10 years with no word whatsoever.

No phones. No news broadcasts. No TV. No Ipods.

 Penelope sits and weaves.  What would you do to find out if he's alive? What does she do?

She is besieged by suitors, it's not her beauty, she could be a dog, it's her huge kingdom.  How come they can't leave her alone? It's  a strain to feed them much less deal with them. Why can't she throw them out?



Everyone is welcome, pull a stump up here next to the fire, we'll reconnoiter here on the beach before setting sail Tuesday. Have we got EVERYTHING we need?  We ARE going to need to hear about any auxiliary books you find on this theme, any films you've seen, anything pertaining remotely to the Odyssey.  We're about to start our first installment of our own Odyssey!

Welcome aboard, the gangplank goes up Tuesday morning, ready or not!

[ALF43]

Bravo Ginny!  With your enthusiasm and your love of the classics this should prove to be a paramount discussion.
The composite of posters and  positions offered help so that noone (me particularly, sitting in the rear)should feel deflated before we even begin.
 It is a praiseworthy discussion in its infancy.  I agree whole heartedly with the theory that our questions will prove more valuable than the plethora of study guides available.
Ginny your point that everyone should involve themselves by  "grabbing on" to someone else's thought and/or opinion is extremly important for a good discussion.   If one is not at least acknowledged   when they post, it is depressing and forces some to abandon the whole discussion.  
As a DL we know how difficult it is to keep up with every single post so let's all pinch in here and help Ginny and Joan with this monumental task.  The discussion alone with these references will take hours of hard work by our DLs.  I personally have a zillion questions that need answering or at least exploring and I back off when I know that the DL has to acknowledge each poster.  Just chime in and at least say"Andy, you're an idiot, where did you get that thought?"  It will be OK, it will encourage me to rethink it or stand by my thought.

Ginny, I have the Butler translation, edited by Loomis, copyrighted 1944.

[Gumtree]

Does anybody have any illustrations of what the ship Odysseus sailed in might actually look like?

Well, there's always the Siren Vase - I've spent quite some time trying to get a link to the British Museum where the vase is held and other sites to work - in desperation here's one from the dreaded wiki people. scroll down and you can click on  an image of the whole vase.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Odysseus_Sirens_BM_E440_n2.jpg

[BarbStAubrey]

hahaha - I really enjoyed your post Ginny - on and on as  you waxed poetic - it was a joy and fun - exhilarating and informative - thanks ever for the list of shipmates and the books they are using to view the land/seascape of Greek Heroes.

Some shipmates I know however, a few names I will have to get to know - and that I am sure will be part of our journey - probably no deck chairs on this voyage - sounds like all hands to the rowing oars - hehehe - that is fine - we are strong, bold and up to the voyage. I love it!

For me this is a perfect time to sail - it appears our winter is over - thank goodness - the last of the really cold, below freezing temps is over as of last night and we slide back into the 70s over the weekend with nothing on the weather map to break the trend - and so if a week from now a norther blows it will be too late in the year for it to have any significant affect on us - I'm expecting the Jasmin to bloom next week along with the Redbuds - if all this was for real it would be a perfect time to set off on a sea voyage -

[Gumtree]

Unlike Gilligan, Odysseus has been gone for 10 years when the story opens. How long in the United  States  what's the law, is it 3 years before you are declared dead? What is it in the UK? In Australia? It's been 10 years with no word whatsoever.

In Australia? I think the period for death in absentia is still seven years. -
 
In 1967 our Prime Minister, Harold Holt disappeared whilst swimming in the sea and had to be declared dead. Of course there are many urban myths that have grown up around his disappearance - His body was never found and some believe he was a spy for the Chinese and is still alive and well in China (picked up by a submarine of course) or that he faked his 'disappearance' to go off to live with his lover... These days in the Aussie vernacular to "do a Harold Holt' means to 'disappear' suddenly and without saying goodbye usually from a social gathering. 

[rosemarykaye]

In Scotland it is 7 years - after that the next of kin can apply to the coroner for a death certificate to be issued dated 7 days from the last day on which the person was known to have been alive. 

I have had one such case at work.  It was very interesting for me but a complete nightmare for the family - it was obvious that the poor man had died, but without a body or other proof there was nothing they could do.  The man was unmarried, and his sister was unable to sell his house, but could not draw on his (substantial) funds to pay the outgoings.  His pension providers immediately found loopholes to stop paying his pensions, but the Inland Revenue still insisted that he was alive for tax purposes.  I wrote several strongly worded letters on the sister's behalf, but to no avail.

I imagine that Penelope would not have had all this trouble in Ancient Greece - or would she?  Would she have been able to deal with her absent husband's property or not?  Could she spend any of his money?  My Fagles Odyssey has arrived AT LAST - just about to open it - but i have taken my other books (well, a small selection of them - Madeleine tried to take all of hers, every last one) to my friend's where we will be living for 6 weeks from Friday, so i can't look at the Dummies book until next w/e.

Husband has just managed to smash the door of our built-in oven - 7 days before we hand over the keys to the house - I have been a model of patience and understanding  but despite this our kitchen is not a good place to be right now - the girls and I are retreating to our bedrooms until the storm has past.  Barb, I could certainly jump onto a sailing ship right now, and come back once the tempest of moving house is over!

Rosemary

[Dana]

Well, good for Wikipedia !!  What a beautiful vase, Gumtree
.
I had instant thoughts about a couple of things you said, Ginny.

Re why does it keep being retranslated........I have to think that the translators do it for the joy of translating, and then to be able to put one's translation into poetry is just the icing on the cake.  I love translating, myself, reading a translation can't compare.  I bet they do it for the love of it.

And re why does Penelope wait--don't know, wouldn't like to speculate but as we read about her maybe we'll find out how her mind ticks.

How interesting about Harold Holt, reminds me of Lord Lucan.Now the previous SC gov did a minor disappearing trick but was tracked down or confessed, can't remember, to visiting his girlfriend in Argentina.  Leading to new meaning to the passtime of "hiking on the Appalacian trail."

ALF3 I think you're right, we should respond to what people say. 

[ALF43]

Gumtree- I love the link to the vase .  However, that ship doesn't look too sea worthy, does it?I feel bad for the poor dude that they have tied to the mast before he has to walk the plank. Anybody we know from our reading yet?

Dana- It appears that Penelope was left in beautiful surroundings: queen of the palace, many male suitors and oh yeah-$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Yep, that would do it for me, I'll stick around and await my husband's return.

Rosemary- RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!!

[ALF43]

Our laws in the US have several criteria for declaring someone dead by assumption. One, if he/she has been missing from his/her residence for a period of seven years ; or such absence has been continuous without explanation, or when those persons most likely to hear from him/her have heard nothing; and the missing person cannot be located by inquiry and by diligent search.
This also varies from state to state and if declared legally dead and the assets are distributed it can still be challenged.  I imagine this happens quite a bit if there are treasures such as Penelope has in her possession.

[Dana]

The guy tied to the mast is Odysseus who made his men do that so HE could hear the song the sirens sang without perishing.  I beleive he stuffed their ears with cotton, but we will find out!

[JudeS]

Oh, Ginny
I laughed when you asked why do people keep translating the Odyssey?
The answer of course is like Mount Everest.. because it's there!
It's also a challenge and the opportunity to ONE-UP all the brilliant people that came before you and because you are convinced that you are more brilliant and talented than they.  What higher accolade could an academic want after his name, in his obituary, TRANSLATOR OF  THE ODYSSEY!!

And little Johnny, the translator's son lisping to his classmates , "My Daddy twanslated de Odyssey".

My learned travelers perhaps you have another explanation but I will always believe mine is the best! So there!

[PatH]

Deb asks why do people keep retranslating this story.  Dana says, for the joy of translating.  That’s very real.  When you translate something, it’s yours in a way that nothing can equal.  You have had to think about every bit of it, exactly what does it mean, and how can you get the same effect in English.  I’ve done this a bit in Spanish (taking days to get a 14 line sonnet right in prose) so I see the appeal.  JudeS says it’s for the challenge and chance for one-upmanship.  That’s true too.

But why is there a market for new translations?  I think that that each generation needs to hear this ancient tale in a voice they understand.  Pope sounds flowery to us now, but his contemporaries were used to that kind of language and expected it.  Keats wrote a moving sonnet, “On First Looking Into Chapman’s Homer”, about the revelation of getting away from stuffy old Pope.  I looked at Chapman when we were starting the Iliad discussion and found him almost unreadable.

The best translation would be the one which didn’t either add or omit anything, but still spoke in a contemporary voice.  (Which also means it wouldn’t last forever.)  Lombardo does that for me.  He was quite clear about sticking to the original and also trying to make it something that could be told aloud.

I haven’t read Lattimore, but my daughter read his Iliad in college, and I’ve read a convincing discussion by her profs about why it was the right translation to read.

I think in the end it boils down to: what is transparent to you in getting at what Homer is saying.

[bookad]

Ginny--sorry but you forgot me in your group listing the Odyssey translators

I have the Lattimore translation, mainly because I read  Lombardo's thoughts about his writings and was quite interested --so when I went to the Rockport, 'Booknook store' and saw 2 different translations, one marked up with underlined passages--  I chose the other hence Lattimore thinking I was buying the Lombardo one--though I am quite happy with my choice upon reading this one --it was published in 1965, 1967

before I had first acquired a copy translated by E. V. Rieu....when looking him up in amazon (now don't ask me why I would look him up after acquiring the book), I noticed the translation there was different in a number of respects...and searching found my translation was by the father in 1946,-- then came the penguin edition 1999 by the son E. Rieu--a revised translation

would it be of any help if when we post, use some short form of what translation we are using, i.e. first letter of translator

I love the fact that I have a poetical translation-Lattimer-with numbered lines and a novel type translation by E.V Rieu

unfortunately we are due to leave Rockport, Texas Tuesday, and I am not sure when we will next have use of internet, we are heading for Ft. Myers, Florida and will take about a week, but I intend to keep up as best I can, though may not be able to post

being the visual learner type that I am I have been striving to find online a family line drawing of people mentioned in the Iliad & Odyssey, sort of generational thing, varying levels outlining who is who and where they fit into the narrative...I am striving to create one for myself but it is always nice to find one neatly done for me online--if the gods were posted into this bonus

Deb

[roshanarose]

bookad - Something of a coincidence that you should mention a "family line" because that is exactly what I was thinking before I went to sleep last night.  I am sure there are more connections than those surrounding Agamemnon and Menelaus, Helen and Clytemnestra.  Just love their names.  Did you know that Schliemann, whose wife was Sophia, had two children - the boy was called Agamemnon and the girl Andromache.  Andromache was the wife of Hector, son of Priam (and Hecuba?) in the Iliad, I think.  Andromache and Hector had a son called Astyanax.  I have a beautiful poem about Astyanax somewhere.  I have gleaned this knowledge mainly from Modern Greek poetry and the movie "Troy".  Being the fuss-pot that I am there were several things in "Troy" that did not seem ring true for me.  However, it is worth seeing as a prelude to "The Odyssey".

Achilles (aka Brad Pitt is a demigod.  His mother is Thetis, Goddess of the Sea.  It was Thetis who dipped Achilles into the river Styx when he was a baby to ensure his immortality.  She held him by the heel.  Prizes for anyone who can remember his dad.

A long time ago I saw a TV series about Odysseus (1997).  I wish I could remember the actor's name who was in it.  Armand someone.  I remember, it was Armand Assante.  I am onto it.

www.imdb.com/title/tt0118414

Gum : Yes.  That is a beautiful depiction of Odysseus.  I have another depiction on the cover of my book.  Ginny posted a beautiful pic of the ever patient Penelope and the artist was John William Waterhouse.  Waterhouse painted the cover of my "Odyssey" also.  You may like to see it at www.johnwilliamwaterhouse.com.  To my eye it is a bit dark.  Fortunately for us, many pre-Raphaelites used mythology/classics as a preferred theme in their art.  Perhaps Ginny can work her magic on it.

Note the "eyes" on the prow.  Greek sailors and fishermen still paint them on their sea craft.  They are meant to repel evil and keep the sailors safe.  The "Evil Eye" in other words.

[BarbStAubrey]

For those of  you who chose the Emile Rieu, or E. V. Rieu translation - he wrote children's poems and here is one called;

"The Flattered Flying Fish"
          ~ by Emile Rieu.

Said the Shark to the Flying Fish over the phone;
"Will you join me tonight?, For I'm dining alone.
Let me order a nice little dinner for two,
And come as you are in your shimmering blue!"
Said the Flying Fish: "Fancy HE remembering ME,
And the dress that I wore to the porpoises' Tea!"
"How could I forget?" said the Shark in his guile;
"I'll expect you at eight!",and rang off with a smile.

She has powdered her nose, she has put on her things;
She is off with one flap of her luminous wings....

Oh! little one, lovely, light-hearted and vain,
The Moon will not shine on your beauty again!

[Gumtree]

Barbara:  Good Grief - I hadn't thought of that poem for XXXX years. Thanks.

[kidsal]

Ginny:  I also have a translation by George Palmer -- prose edition

[Gumtree]

Alf:  I'd just about forgotten about Lord Lucan's disappearing act - if that's what it was - was he ever declared officially dead?

I see that Dana has answered your question about who was tied to the mast - thanks Dana. I didn't know whether to put it up or whether that would be a spoiler for those who haven't read the book.

Bookad - I've got the Lattimore Iliad and found it a wonderful read - I've a couple of other translations too but think Lattimore is best for me.

About E.V Rieu - Emile Victor - His 1946 translation of the Odyssey was the first book in Penguin's Classic Series -and for many years E.V  was the General Editor of that series. Here's something about how his translation came into being:

Before 1946 ‘classics’ were mainly the domain of students and academics, without good, readable editions for everyone else. Penguin had previously dabbled in what were regarded as classics, with a batch of ten books published in 1935 that included Samuel Butler’s Erewhon, and a 1938 series of ten Illustrated Classics including Swift’s Gulliver’s Travels, but with little success.

This was all to change after the Second World War. E. V. Rieu, a distinguished but obscure classicist and publisher, had whiled away odd idle hours of wartime service perfecting his translation of Homer’s Odyssey and reading these efforts aloud to his wife Nelly, who encouraged him to complete the task and try to get it published.

“I began on the Odyssey three years before the Second World War started, and completed the first draft as France fell. Home Guard service intervened, and I could not finish the job till 1944. Even so, its revision was undertaken to the sound of v1 and v2 explosions and the crash of shattering glass – an accompaniment which would have chimed in better with the more warlike Iliad, and which, I hope, is not reflected in my style. Actually, I went back to Homer, the supreme realist, who puts his magic finger every time on the essential qualities of things, by way of escape from the unrealities that surrounded us then – and still surround us in a world of fantastically distorted values.'

Ignoring the doubts of his colleagues, Allen Lane not only instantly agreed to publish the translation, but invited Rieu to edit a new series of Classics. It was a typical Lane decision: an instinctive leap, a certainty that an eager audience existed for new and accessible translations, one that Rieu’s achievement had clearly created. It was not so much a gamble as an act of faith against all odds, one that any rational publisher guided solely by the balance sheet would have been unlikely to take.

Rieu's translation of the Odyssey became an immediate triumph and went on to sell some three million copies, occupying the position of the best-selling Penguin until rudely usurped fifteen years on by Lady Chatterley s Lover and, ultimately, Animal Farm.

I guess the initial 3 million readers can't all be wrong. wonder how many million copies have been sold now. Just think of the number of copies of the combined sales of all the translations - I can't envisage how many that would be.
 

[Gumtree]

Why do they keep on translating the ancient texts? - As Jude says - because they're there! love it! And I do think that is part of the answer.
PatH also touches on another part in the need to bring the works to a new audience in language they can readily understand.

I see the translators as part of the long line stretching back to the Greek bards  themselves who during the oral tradition repeated, embellished and brought up-to-date the old stories or histories. Once the stories were written down in ancient times they were still repeated, embellished and brought up-to-date by scholars and scribes who made notes in the margins (scholia) and who changed words here and there to suit their own times - its language, its social mores and in some instances its politics as well.

Modern day translators do the same, consciously or subconsciously. Their aim is to make the stories readable for their contemporaries - and in many instances to translate the classics is a necessary part of academic life. In reality they are passing on the cultural heritage and the tribal memory of ages past to the new generations who in turn will do the same.


All sorts of stories have been passed down through the generations by oral and then written forms - the legends surrounding King Arthur are a case in point - we can look at the French legends and Mallory's classic which have been rewritten countless times by writers good and bad - Many people find Mallory's English too difficult to read and without the likes of say John Steinbeck who rewrote King Arthur, perhaps the stories would eventually be lost. - and the films and musicals are just another form of telling the stories, adapting them and passing them on to new audiences.

It is a curious thing that  in every generation there are those who respond to these ancient and medieval texts  despite their difficulties and a few of those make sure the tales are passed on. I read somewhere that the number of people who actually read an ancient text is less than one in a thousand of population.  So that makes each of us who will read Odyssey something of a rare breed. I know you all knew that anyway.

[Babi]

 GINNY, I have the Robert Fitzgerald translation, as published by the
International Collectors Library.
 ROSEMARY, I was appalled at the situation you described. Surely,even
though Inland Revenue might claim the man was, technically, still
alive, he obviously wasn't earning a paycheck! I can only suppose he
had other sources of revenue,..but were they paying anything in his
'absence'?  Oh, well, it's history now. It just got me puzzling.

[PatH]

Gumtree, I particularly liked this part of your quote:

"Homer, the supreme realist, who puts his magic finger every time on the essential qualities of things"

Very true.