Author Topic: Classics Book Club, The  (Read 492832 times)

PatH

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #480 on: February 13, 2011, 09:37:24 AM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.




Welcome to
The Classics Book Club, now discussing


Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey



February 15-21: Book I: Meanwhile, Back in the  Castle....


Penelope at her Loom
John William Waterhouse
1912


  
Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  



Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:

kidsal: Alexander Pope, George Palmer
Dana: Fitzgerald
Gumtree: Butler, T.E. Lawrence, Cook, Rieu
EvelynMC: S.H. Butcher and Andrew Lang
Mippy: Lombardo
Roxania: Lombardo
Pedln: Pope, Fagles
PatH: Lombardo,
JoanR: Fagles
Frybabe: Butcher and Lang
Deb (bookad): Lattimore, E.V. Rieu
roshanarose: T.E. Lawrence.
JudeS: Fagles
Babi: Robert Fitzgerald
Mippy: Pope, Lombardo
ALF43: Butler (corrected in edit)
Babi: Pope? Fagles
BarbStAubrey: Fagles
straudetwo: Lombardo
rosemarykaye: Fagles
caroljwl: Fagles
JoanK: Fagles.
sandyrose: Rieu,Lombardo
ginny: Lombardo, Fagles, Pope, Murray, Butler




Homer and the Epic Form:


By definition an epic is a long narrative poem, written in lofty style and dealing with the preternatural exploits of a national hero. Certain accepted conventions mark the epic. The most important are these:

A:The theme is a series of adventures befalling a national hero.

B:The poem begins with an invocation of the Muse (the goddess of epic poetry, one of nine goddesses of poetry and of arts and sciences.)

C:The poem begins in 'media res'(in the middle of things) . What has happened before is told by flashbacks.

D:A classic ,dignified meter is  used. In Greek & Latin dactyllic hexameter.

The Stock Epithet


Homer uses many stock epithets, the conventionalized adjective or descriptive phrase applied again and again to persons and things.Morn is usually rosy fingered;the sea is wine dark or loud resounding;Odysseus is brilliant Odysseus or Odysseus of many wiles. Scholars realized that the poet used set combinations , of noun and epithets as building blocks to fill out his six foot lines .Brilliant Odysseus for for a two foot space and for a three foot space he had Odysseus of many wiles.This became an accepted device for Greek epic style---(From
 Greek & Roman Writers by McNiff)--- Submitted by JudeS


rosemarykaye

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #481 on: February 13, 2011, 09:43:20 AM »
Babi - I know, it was a completely ridiculous situation.  He had income from investments, etc, but his sister couldn't get at it, because in the normal course of events, as soon as a bank or share registrar is informed of a death, they "freeze" the accounts and withhold the dividends, etc until executors are properly appointed, probate granted, etc.  All the fund holders decided "disappeared" meant dead, whilst - typically - the tax office said it didn't.  That is what I said in my letters to the pension providers - if there is no death certificate, how can you presume that this man is dead when the law doesn't - but they quickly found some sub-clause or other allowing them to withhold payments more or less whenever the fancy took them.  Fortunately the man's current a/c was with a small local bank (he lived in the country) and the manager there did eventually agree to let the sister pay a few bills direct from the account - if he had lived in London, for example, she would have just met a stonewall of bureaucracy.  She was such a nice woman, and immensely determined and sensible - most people would have thrown in the towel, but she just kept plugging away at it, even though she lived the opposite end of the country.

There was a lot to be said for the old way of dong business - ie everyone knowing their local bank, post office, etc staff and people trusting one another.  Now these places hide behind the catch all defence of "data protection" just as other institutions use "health and safety" as an excuse for anything they don't want to do.

R

Babi

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #482 on: February 13, 2011, 11:20:54 AM »
Quote
There was a lot to be said for the old way of dong business - ie everyone knowing their local bank, post office, etc staff and people trusting one another
.
  I couldn't agree more, ROSEMARY.  We once lived across the street
from the vice-president of a local bank and I would have liked to have
our accounts there. I know he could have been helpful if we ran into
problems. Unfortunately, my ex-husband didn't like the idea of people
he knew knowing his private business.

  On the Classics theme, I found this lovely spot:
 http://www.artsales.com/Ancient%20Ships/kGreekWarShips.htm
   
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #483 on: February 13, 2011, 04:09:06 PM »
The pictures of the ancient ships are fascinating! I notice that the ship on the vase has room for only a few oars, and not all of these are manned. (Interesting-- presumably, O had already lost some men before he got to the Sirens.

The ships in the last pictures have many more oars. Wec should be able to get a sense when we read the text of how many men O had.

In either case, we can see how the ship worked. PatH, our sailor, will want to know how they navigated. Not well, obviously, since they got lost so often.

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #484 on: February 13, 2011, 04:16:15 PM »
I love the poem about the shark. You make Reiu's translation sound interesting. I'm beginning to wish I had them ALL. I had two, that I couldsn't find -- bought Fagles, and have just ordered Lombardo (got it used really cheap). Soon I'll need a bookcase just for the Odyssey.

sandyrose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #485 on: February 13, 2011, 05:02:49 PM »
Jude says... 
Quote
And little Johnny, the translator's son lisping to his classmates , "My Daddy twanslated de Odyssey".

And in E. V. Rieu's case his son could say not only that his father translated the Odyssey, but "I revised his translation--twice."

D. C. H. Rieu says....to ensure that the translation continued to be as accessible and useful to modern readers as it had been to EVR's first readers.

JudeS

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #486 on: February 13, 2011, 05:58:13 PM »
Yesteday my library had a fifty cent sale.  What did I find? First and foremost "Ancient Greek Literature in its Living Context" by H.C.Baldry. Ninety percent of he book is illustrations of Greek artifacts, scenes (in color) of the places where the action of the Illiad and the Odyssey took place and erudite wording along with the pictueres.If you wish to look for it on Amazon or another site  it is a McGraw-Hill Paperback 1968 copyright in London -reprinted 1972. What a treasure.

The other book I found for the same price "Greek and Roman Writers" by the Rev. William T.McNiff, OSC thr Macmillan Co.
printed in1962 .I simply couldn't put it down for the background it gave me on the subject we are engaged in learning. It was written for the Catholic Education Division.
Of course I realize that much has been learned and discovered since these books were written but for myself it helps me to move into the subject on surer feet.

pedln

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #487 on: February 13, 2011, 08:27:44 PM »
So, tomorrow's the day?
Ginny, you can add my books up there -- Fagles in print, Pope on the Kindle.  I also have a Butler from the library, but haven't had time to do much with it.

I feel like a bee or a butterfly, flitting from plant to plant, sampling a bit here and a bit there, trying to make sense of it all.  So grateful for all your stories and input.

Today I found a slim volume picked up in a used books store a few years back --Dateline: Troy, by Paul Fleischman.  He tells small stories about the goings on at Troy, and then pairs them with an appropriate current news clipping.  Ex.  Priam orders the baby Paris to be killed -- Contemporary article -- Newborn found in dumpster.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #488 on: February 14, 2011, 12:40:49 AM »
OK, I am overwhelmed with conflicting information – the “why” of so many translations seem to be rooted in several factors – The big two that I find is: those who believe it is important to read the poem with a beat that our western ears will relate rather than the beat inherent to the old Greek and then, others who believe the question to prove [and with each new proof there must be an adjust to the translation] how the length of this story could be passed down intact much less remembered during the oral tradition.

The books I am getting the most information from are Michael Wood, ‘In Search Of the Trojan War’ and M.I. Finley’s, ‘The World of Odysseus’ and the intro to my copy of Fagles Odyssey.

First, let me get a few smaller bits of information out for us to chew on – After the time when Gods no longer shouted and spoke from mountain tops and sea floors as caretakers of the universe - the concept of rain was explained – seems the sky was considered a large inverted bowl that would spring leaks as holes were opened and so the concern - a large hole would open drowning/flooding the known world. Moreover, the known world was located in the middle of an endless sea of water that was held up by huge tree trunks with deep roots.

Michael Wood in his book, names all the heroes and their families from all the sources of antiquity and explains how each was killed off – the ’Age of Heroes’ was broken apart and destroyed, the god-like race of hero-men who lived between the Bronze Age and the age of Iron. Some of his litany of heroes include; Agamemnon, murdered by his wife. Menelaos and Odysseus along with Mopsus wander onto Anatolia where after they settle were attacked by pirates. Diomedes, Philoktetes and Idomeneus find new lands in Italy, Sicily and western Anatolia.

Thucydides in the 5th century tells of constant resettlements till finally the Greek-speaking peasantry from the north, Dorian’s mark the end of Agamemnon’s world and the Dark Age follows.

The belief that Ajax defiled Athena’s alter during the sack of Troy incurring her everlasting enmity, was so strong that as late as the 4th century BC barefoot maidens with shorn hair lived out their days like slaves in extreme poverty cleaning the precinct of Lokris.

Joseph, the Jewish historian of the first century AD writes that the Greeks have no accurate good source for their prehistoric past. Oral tradition was all they had to rely on. However, the Romans are fired up by the legend, as Alexander claimed ancestry for Achilles, Julius Caesar called the Trojan Aeneas his ancestor.  

Justine worshipped the ‘old gods’ despite his uncle Constantine adopted Christianity as the official ‘state’ religion  writing a letter hoping the hated ‘Galilean’ [Jesus] would not in the end conquer. When he travels to the city of Ilium Novum to make his offering of oil he is relived to find the Christian Bishop keeping the flame burning at the tomb of  Achilles. The two take a stroll around the city swapping Homeric tags.

The early middle ages Christology rejects Homer as the devil’s entertainment. Byzantium is the enemy of Hellenism and Homer rests with the pagans. Knowledge of Greek almost vanished until the nineteenth century.

And yet, it is during the early middle ages in St. Marks in Venice we have the oldest known complete hand written copy of the Iliad created about AD 900. Also in Italy, the first printed edition of Homer was issued in Florence in 1488.

Most interesting, not long before the fall of Rome historian, Ammianus Marcellinus tells a story that fugitive Trojans settled in Gaul. The story served political ends. -  In 550AD,  the King of Italy was supposed to be related to these escaped Trojans. The story in Britain ties Wales as related by Nennius and the founder of Britain, Brutus was declared descended from Ilius popularized by Geoffrey of Monmouth who has Brutus finding London as Troynovan. Most Elizabethan poets accept the story; the Tudors ascending the throne after Bosworth assume they will usher in the Golden Age.  

Ok back to Homer’s poem – there are many scrapes of incomplete as well, as many as 6 separate stories showing up in pieces on numerous fragments of papyrus, a few as old as the 3rd century BC. Athenian Hipparchus in 6th C. BC, reformed the recitation of Homeric poetry.

M.I.Finley offers the dichotomy with each point of scholarship suggesting what is taken for granted by each school of thought cannot be backed up – However, recently we see words in published essays and Introductions saying, ‘suggesting a guiding hand’ ‘Building-blocks’ Bard or Poet’s ‘construct’ – All another way of suggesting the finding of Milman Parry is present.

Milman Parry demonstrates the influence of Darwin's publication of The Origin of Specieson the life sciences. Along with his assistant-successor Albert Lord, in1934 they meet a Serbian Bard, who chants a story as long as the Odyssey during a two week recital of two hours each morning and two hours each afternoon. He follows in the footsteps of a Nineteenth Century Bard from the Hindu Kush who shared this formula to “sing every song; for God has planted the gift of song in my heart”. – Neither of these Bards could read or write – To do this Parry finds they had at their disposal necessary raw material, that includes masses of incidents and formulas; the accumulation of generations of minstrels.

Chanting is not the language of everyday speech with a meter imposed including, repeated lines, [that many translators try to omit] an artificial word order and predicted rest stops during which time the orator is preparing the next episode.

Parry and Lord explain, the tales of ‘Mortal Heroes’ have a pattern that fit incidents of the coming of dawn and of night, scenes of combat, burial, feasting, drinking, dreaming – descriptions of palaces, meadows, arms, treasure - metaphors of the sea, pasturage, and so on… characteristic are incidents particular to the hero, strange grammatical forms and  vocabulary evolves including an artificial dialect, which in the case of the Iliad and Odyssey no Greek ever spoke. He suggests the greater the accumulated material the greater the poet’s freedom.

He goes on to explain  that the Greek world of the 8th and 7th centuries BC was mostly unlettered despite the introduction of the alphabet and therefore, literature continued to be oral. The men who could read were in the hundreds however, the stores were heard and re-heard by tens of thousands all over Hellas. In historical times, the ritual drama was most often performed during great festive occasions with professional reciters who lived, worked, and died within his tribe or community.

Traveling artists were important in Greece and were the first to take on the lack of political centralization diverging further and further from the original story to keep territorial disputes from erupting until the 4th century AD when Solon prescribed Homer in a fixed order.  

Both Finely and Wood sound so authoritarian in their conclusions that I am struck when I read others who have different opinions – first I check to see when their article was written thinking it was before Parry and Lord – but no – and so I think we have landed ourselves in a scholar’s soup du jour – they are still sorting opinions until more conclusive evidence is discovered.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JudeS

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #489 on: February 14, 2011, 01:30:48 AM »
For those who like myself are not scholars of Greek Lit and language I will just quote two things that helped me most prepare for this journey (from  Greek & Roman Writers by McNiff).
Homer and the Epic Form:
By definition an epic is a long narrative poem, written in lofty style and dealing with the preternatural exploits of a national hero. Certain accepted conventions mark the epic. The most important are these:
A:The theme is a series of adventures befalling a national hero.
B:The poem begins with an invocation of the Muse (the goddess of epic poetry, one of nine goddesses ofpoetry and of arts and sciences.)
C:The poem begins in 'media res'(in the middle of things) . What has happened before is told by flashbacks.
D:A classic ,dignified meter isused. In Greek & latin dactyllic hexameter.

The Stock Epithet
Homer uses many stock epithets, the conventialized adjective or descriptive phrase applied again and again topersons and things.Morn is usually rosy fingered;the sea is wine dark or loud resounding;Odysseus is brilliant Odysseus or Odysseus of many wiles. Scholars realized that the poet used set combinations , of noun and epithets as building blocks to fill out his six foot lines .Brilliant Odysseus for for a two foot space and for a three foot space he had Odysseus of many wiles.This became an accepted device for Greek epic style.


rosemarykaye

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #490 on: February 14, 2011, 02:39:45 AM »
Thanks Jude, it really helps me to have things in a nutshell - though I did originally read "rosy fingered MOM" instead of "morn" (haven't got my glasses on yet  :)).

Of course there are some writers who use the same descriptions all the time without any need to squeeze them into a set form - JK Rowling and her adverbs spring to mind.  At least Homer had an excuse.  And before I am torn to shreds by JKR's defenders, I do think she's wonderful, and also a really nice person - it's just occasionally that I feel the need to score out a few of those "shrillys"!

R

bookad

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #491 on: February 14, 2011, 08:07:15 AM »
really a lot of 'food for thought' here, to help with the journey

first-sorry Ginny for when I thought you had omitted me from the translation group list; don't know how I could have missed that, as I had read that list a couple of times-and rereading it again (searching for a particular quote someone expressed an idea that struck me as 'a wonderful way to put ...'-about judicial system often not measuring what one ordinary non-judge would expect)

wish I could type out large amounts of quotes for example that fit in with what I am trying to express, but till I have cataract surgery hopefully this summer on returning home... I read books without glasses, and computer screen with font +++++and glasses, making for hard situation following from book to screen for me...constantly losing my place...

Joan ref.R 453-Jan 11-talking about women being denied....I received a letter from Morristown N. J. Nov. 1963A stating about my interest in becoming a guide dog trainer...they did not accept women into the 4 year apprenticeship course, as women tended to 'get married and have children' and all that work to train them went to waste

Frybabe--ref. R 457--my upbringing included going semi-freq to the opera-Gilbert and Sullivan's Mikado--the wandering mistral, the son in disguise of the Mikado, sings.....about his ability to make his singing connect with the audience at hand, and his versatility to do so

BarbStAub--loved the poem by Rieu--have been looking for a poem saw on a 'get well card' once about --God and how he must have had a sense of humour to have created the universe with some of its strange colour combinations etc i.e. the zebra--perhaps I should be looking at this author further

obviously I get sidetracked easily--just rein me in when I do I don't mind...

Deb
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

bookad

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #492 on: February 14, 2011, 08:26:38 AM »
.........continued ...post note to the Morristown N.J. item...I never really wanted to have children couldn't imagine how to cope with raising a family and having a career,....--would have loved a career training dogs...oh well, it wan't in my cards I was dealt I guess

Deb
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #493 on: February 14, 2011, 09:02:46 AM »
This discussion is like a dazzling...I don't even have the words.  It just dazzles on every front. I absolutely LOVE coming in here, what you say sends me reeling off in another direction.

Happy Valentine's Day!~

TOMORROW (one of us apparently can't tell dates, but it's tomorrow we begin), on the 15th with Book I. I'm just blown away by what you've all put here.

Gum! On first looking into Chapman’s Homer  by John Keats (1795–1821)!

I haven't thought of that in years and I found that Arthur Quiller-Couch (those of you who liked Helene Hanff, does that ring a bell? I became so enamored of her 84 Charing Cross Road, that I bought a set of Quiller Couch's lectures. One of his anthologies gives it:
 

 
 
  MUCH have I travell’d in the realms of gold,   
    And many goodly states and kingdoms seen;   
    Round many western islands have I been   
  Which bards in fealty to Apollo hold.   
  Oft of one wide expanse had I been told           5
    That deep-brow’d Homer ruled as his demesne;   
    Yet did I never breathe its pure serene   
  Till I heard Chapman speak out loud and bold:   
  Then felt I like some watcher of the skies   
    When a new planet swims into his ken;           10
  Or like stout Cortez when with eagle eyes   
    He star’d at the Pacific—and all his men   
  Look’d at each other with a wild surmise—   
    Silent, upon a peak in Darien.

Yes I'd say that's what you want YOUR translation to do for you. I haven't read Chapman. This, however, is how I feel coming in here:   Then felt I like some watcher of the skies   
    When a new planet swims into his ken;   


Deb and Pedln, I'm SO sorry to have left you off and thank you Andrea and Babi and Sally and everybody for the corrections, we apparently have had a blip or two since the 11th when they upgraded the site and lost a couple of things.  

But what's THIS? One of our crew already is wandering off to climes unknown? Oh dear, it's a dangerous thing to leave the ship! Will Deb wander in Texas and Florida forever? Will she be snapped up by some hideous monster or beguiled into staying? Our own life imitates art here, safe sailing, All, till we meet again!
__________________________


Gosh what fantastic discussions here on the translations and why people keep translating. I've read them twice. I liked especially the idea of making the classics the stuff of our everyday lives, not just something only a few classicists or academics can enjoy.  That makes sense. And if Pope no longer speaks to YOU somebody else might.

_______________________

Dana, Wikipedia is excellent for art references, and they have to be checked, just nothing else. I am rather proud to see the links put here so far on background which range beyond wikianything. Just Friday I heard on Sirius CNN Clark Howard warning people NOT to take the "first link which comes up, you know who that is") as evidence for anything. Who was it who called Wikipedia "Truthiness?" He came very close to saying  that there's a good reason why some of these links come up first and he's right, but everybody donate to Wiki for their "bandwith," now. Right.

Enough rant!

 Roshanna Rose (loved the bit on Shliemman's children and their children's names!) Being the fuss-pot that I am there were several things in "Troy" that did not seem ring true for me.  You're not a fuss-pot, and you're not alone.

Achilles (aka Brad Pitt  That is , without exception, the worst movie I have ever seen in my life.  I could not finish it.  We were reading the Iliad right after it came out. Kind of like Russell Crowe and historical Gladiator accuracy (if you don't believe me find one of the classics sites which talks about the discrepancies). However, it's better than the extra in the Spartacus  of Kirk Douglas's time with the Rolex watch. :) (Again check a site which does Spartacus for accuracy).

Thank you all  for the illustrations of Odysseus tied to the mast and the boats!!! And for Harold Holt and  Lord Lucan!

RosemaryKaye: how interesting: JK Rowling and her adverbs spring to mind  Really? How interesting!  She has quite the classics background as you can see in Harry Potter, I loved his correcting his grammar in Exspecto Patronus... and it didn't work till he changed it to Patronum. Fabulous!

In fact somebody showed me just recently the answer to the question why should one take Latin in 2011 and the answer was, well you can see some in Harry Potter.  The mind boggles!

_________________

JudeS,  thank you for that excellent outline, it's spectacular and you introduce C:The poem begins in 'media res'(in the middle of things) . What has happened before is told by flashbacks. I'm thinking that outline  might be good in the heading as a nice jump start.



I almost fell over with your 50 cent treasures at the Library sale. Just think, somebody with a love of the subject gave those books up, or maybe somebody who owned them died, and the family gave them away or maybe...... not being sure if anybody would be interested. Imagine! I never heard of them, and what a FIND!  Now  we will be enriched as you share from them,  I love that outline. I love this experience!


This one: "Ancient Greek Literature in its Living Context" by H.C.Baldry after reading your description, I had to have. With the internet here we can call up these places for everybody. It cost a little more than 50 cents (but not much) and I can't wait (but apparently I get to wait several weeks) to see it.

What riches!

Barbara:  I liked your conclusion here:  


Both Finely and Wood sound so authoritarian in their conclusions that I am struck when I read others who have different opinions – first I check to see when their article was written thinking it was before Parry and Lord – but no – and so I think we have landed ourselves in a scholar’s soup du jour – they are still sorting opinions until more conclusive evidence is discovered.

 I'm thinking we need scholars in the classical field before we examine the soup,  first. What is Wood's background? We wrote him originally during one of his programs and actually our question was put on PBS. I'm thinking that  his background is history and English, primarily Anglo Saxon history. I'm thinking he's not a classicist primarily? Of course his broadcasts are famous, and all inclusive.  And most interesting, as you write. If he graduated from Oxford he knows something. Still  you don't go to a podiatrist for heart failure. I found his programs fascinating.

You mention:

Most interesting, not long before the fall of Rome historian, Ammianus Marcellinus tells a story that fugitive Trojans settled in Gaul. The story served political ends. -  In 550AD,  the King of Italy was supposed to be related to these escaped Trojans

 Does he not mention  Virgil ? The Aeneid? The original Trojan tie in to Italy, far preceding 550 AD?

I also think it would be wonderful and most useful if those of you interested in a family line got a chart up. I am still trying to get over Agamemnon's shock and anger in the Underworld,  at not having the same homecoming the others did, I can't get over the guy. :)


I feel like a bee or a butterfly, flitting from plant to plant, sampling a bit here and a bit there, trying to make sense of it all.  So grateful for all your stories and input.
Me, too, Pedln, and this way we get the best of all worlds, samplings from all these readings.

I think before we get too much further, I'll make another list:  I am the official list maker, running around behind you all gathering up the scraps you throw down, each one more a treasure than the last.  I'll make a list of the books and films you're discovering and  the literary references you've made, and a separate list  of the links. We can put them when we finish on pages for others to reference, right now we've got them here for us to savor.So many many people with so MUCH knowledge are  and have been as was quoted here about Rieu, laboring in obscurity, out there, some of them long forgotten: thanks to this discussion and YOU, we can have it all here. I have to say, fabulous! It's our own archaeological dig. :)

 Andrea: Ginny your point that everyone should involve themselves by  "grabbing on" to someone else's thought and/or opinion is extremely important for a good discussion.   If one is not at least acknowledged   when they post, it is depressing and forces some to abandon the whole discussion.

I think that's the key and you're all doing it so well!



Meanwhile here on the shore all provisions are in the ship and I see people are pretty much aboard, I'm not sure about the bathroom facilities? But the gangplank goes up at 6 am sharp tomorrow, we'll all be piped aboard.

But what we CAN do today as part of our preparations is bring here the questions we have concerning the Book I.

For instance, here's what I've been wondering about:  we keep talking about Troy.  10 years. Greek ships.   Troy falls, about 1250 BC.  

Here's Raphael's idea of the fall of Troy, here's Aeneas, a Trojan,  carrying his old father Anchises from burning Troy, leading his son by the hand with his wife following. Escaping the city.  

The Greeks have been lined up on the shore, Odysseus (Ulysses) is a Greek. He's about to sail away home.

So we open Book I and where is all this? Where is burning Troy? Where is Ulysses/ Odysseus getting in the boat?  WHAT is all this?

JoanK has an interesting question on this, and it concerns this issue and  something JudeS just put up today,  and I'll wait for her to introduce it and we can start with it tomorrow and/OR  any question YOU all have as you read Book I?  Food for the trip as Deb just put it.

Everyone is welcome, bring your back-packs, oranges, books, junk food, and questions. All ashore who's going ashore! We pull up the gangplank at 6 am tomorrow!

PS Oh I just have to say one more thing! I just read an interesting query of what three things would you want with you on a desert island? The answers were revealing. What three things do you want with YOU on this trip?

pedln

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #494 on: February 14, 2011, 09:18:58 AM »
Thanks, Jude, I’ll ditto Rosemary – even down to the M/rn

My Odyssey folder, for everyone’s comments is now set up, as is my Odyssey folder in Favorites, with the links many of you have put here.  If only I could figure out how to get a shortcut from Favorites to put on my desktop.

And our Latin lesson for today’s class is the beginning of Latin verse, with a description of  the dactyl foot   ____ ˘˘  .  The gods must be watching.



ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #495 on: February 14, 2011, 09:55:59 AM »
:) on the meter!

OH good, Pedln, I just completed a long look back to get all the book references and links, we can compare notes when it's over and see what I missed!

But in going back I noticed a disturbing thing which I want to mention in passing: skipped posts. It seems that for some reason I missed some of your posts, I am not sure how this happens but it happens to all of us. So IF you say something and it seems to be unremarked upon, it's possible somehow it was missed when the others came in, just repeat it. I have noticed this several times now.

You may all be interested to look at the new thing on the top left of every page here? Marcie has done this last night:

Hello ginny
Show new replies in discussions in which you have posted.

Total time logged in: 10 days, 22 hours and 16 minutes.

The thing in red here is what you want to click to see new posts. The older link over it which took you everywhere has been removed.  This is what you want,  it will take you to any new thing mentioned anywhere you have been. It won't show you where you have not been.



RoshanaRose, I particularly wanted to ask about this one:  Waterhouse painted the cover of my "Odyssey" also.  You may like to see it at www.johnwilliamwaterhouse.com.

Now is the illustration on top of the page the one on your book? What's the title or subject  of it, does it say? I can't get anything to come up with the mouse. I LOVE Waterhouse.

Babi

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #496 on: February 14, 2011, 09:58:34 AM »
 Just on a guess, JOANK, I'd say they probably navigated by the stars.
Which isn't a great deal of help when the weather is stormy or
overcast.

 What a find, JUDE! Congratulations. There must be treasures hidden
in my library book sales; I just don't have the stamina to check out
all of the books displayed.

Quote
I think we have landed ourselves in a scholar’s soup du jour
   Beautiful, BARB :D

 Thank you for the Keats poem, GINNY. I was so struck by it the first
time I read it; it's a pleasure to read it again.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #497 on: February 14, 2011, 10:04:13 AM »
Ah - It is so fantastic to see so many being awakened to the joys of Homeric translation.  Ginny, you write as though your very life is entirely consumed by this subject, and I cannot imagine that it should be any other way.

Dactyl is the AG and MG word for "finger" and Dactylidi is the word for ring.  

I merely mentioned the movie Troy because there are some excellent individual characters playing the main parts : e.g. Agamemnon played by Brian Cox; Priam played by Peter O'Toole and Hector played by Eric Bana.  Paris unfortunately, played by Orlando Bloom, was much too effete to have the guts to snatch Helen from Menelaus.

As we were talking about the worth of women in Homer and Greek society in general, I thought that I should mention that even today at Mount Athos women are forbidden to set foot in the monastery.  Even hens are forbidden.  FYI Mount Athos is situated on the third "finger" of Chalkidiki, northern Greece.  I saw a program on Mount Athos on TV and the monks there were asked why women were forbidden there.  Diplomatically, the monk who was being interviewed replied that it was not the fault of the women, but of the monks' lust.  I feel certain that his reply was a lot different than what one would expect from medieval monks.  

As for what I would bring along for the journey - Well, I would make sure that I did not set sail anywhere near the Coral Sea or the Great Barrier Reef, cyclone prone as they are presently.  I would take along some plastic sheeting, plastic bottle containers and some coathangers, some shark repellent, my Cavafy and Seferis, and, doubtless my Odyssey with my rather large collection of Greek books and lexicons,  many stout fishhooks and a small coal driven barbie, some detailed maps and a compass, and a psychology book or two regarding settling disputes at sea.  Maybe if I am given two or three days to reconsider I would probably stow some good Australian wine as well.  And some Chanel No 5 in case I should meet the Greek of my dreams.  I would also take along some rosehip oil for my skin.
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #498 on: February 14, 2011, 10:24:15 AM »
GINNY  Some detail on how to access that J.W. Waterhouse you were asking about :

Got to www.johnwilliamwaterhouse.com/pictures

You will see "Featured Paintings"

Scroll down to "Ulysses and the Sirens" - it is the last entry.

I, too love Waterhouse.  There is also a painting of Circe that is just sublime in its colours.
Peacock blue and green.
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #499 on: February 14, 2011, 03:57:14 PM »
" Paris unfortunately, played by Orlando Bloom, was much too effete to have the guts to snatch Helen from Menelaus."

I think Aphrodite did the dirty work for him. I haven't seen the movie, but he does come through as rather weak in the Iliad which makes it ironic that he's the one who kills Achilles -- from long distance, of course.


JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #500 on: February 14, 2011, 04:08:37 PM »
Before JudeS posted her wonderful list of characteristics of the Epic form, I had suggested to Ginny the following question:

Is it confusing that Homer starts in the middle of the story, well into Ulysses voyage? Did you realize that that is what he is doing? Why do you think he does that?

Now we know that starting in the middle is characteristic of epics, so we could speculate instead about why? I admit, I do find it confusing and frustrating. I want to hear the end of the seige of Troy, but I guess I'll have to wait.

PatH

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #501 on: February 14, 2011, 07:13:53 PM »
Roshanarose, I love your essential shipwreck list.  Let's hope the Cavafy doesn't get waterlogged.

I watched the movie Troy shortly after we read the Iliad under Ginny's fearless leadership, so I was well primed.  It mostly wasn't a very good job, but there were a couple of spots where quality leaked through--the director had been caught by the original and made it stick, and for a few minutes you actually felt the spirit of the poem.


BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #502 on: February 14, 2011, 07:38:37 PM »
Yes, Ginny Virgil is mentioned as are others but like you they were wise – wise enough not to fall for the rouse that Trojans had escaped to Gaul – and so in an attempt not to type out all the points in the chapter they were omitted and I only shared the litany of those who were caught up in the far fetched fantasy.

OH Jude thanks so much for synthesizing what Parry concluded – interesting the author of  your book – he was a Holy Cross priest and it is the Holy Cross priests who are here at St. Ed’s in Austin – what a find – an no shipping costs – I hope you share more of what you learn reading the book. I am also curious about what is included in the Intro of the translations by the other authors being read.

For me both Ken Burns and Michael Wood tie together so much scholarship and bring it alive by photographing the sites while telling their journey of discovery – For me they are a wonderful research tool – I have been researching the Bibliography of all three authors of the books I have about Troy and the Odyssey and there are various institutions mentioned – Wood includes Warburg and Courtauld Institutes

While looking in Amazon for the article mentioned I found another book from the Institute that included a “Look Inside” History of Scholarship: A Selection of Papers  What I got a kick out was in the Introduction it says – Scholarship is by definition endless and the ability to finish one’s work before one is overtaken by illness and death has been , and will be, many a scholar's fate.

At which point I roared laughing – with the love of books  and scholarship among this group it looks like the quote he also includes in the Intro by Mark Pattison was written for Senior Learn “Thus it has been the fate of many men of learning to be crushed under the burden of their own accumulation…” Can you see it now as we are crushed by the burden or our own scholarship or, as I think of it, the burden of our curiosity – like most of you the avalanche or crush could be made from the books in my house both read and still waiting to be read

In the Fagles intro, he speaks to how  the request is made to the  Muse at the beginning of both the Iliad and the Odyssey, suggesting that there is no clarity of direction telling the Muse where to start in the Odyssey as there is in the Iliad.

He also brings up that the story of Telemachus as not in keeping with a Heroic Epic – and so a quick look at the symbolism for ‘son’ – ‘son’ - The double; the living image; the alter ego. And so I wonder if this was a way that the unknown story of Odysseus’ childhood could be explained and the son’s story is the story of Odysseus

All three of the authors in their bibliography or suggested reading mention G.S. Kirk Homer and the Epic does anyone have a copy? There is a shortened version available resale on Amazon that is tempting but at the same time, I am ready to simply read this Epic for its story and art form rather than more research. I am really looking forward to tomorrow.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Book I: Meanwhile, back in the castle......
« Reply #503 on: February 15, 2011, 06:23:19 AM »
And a bright good morning to you all as we embark on our new journey! RoshannaRose's "3 things" have already taken up half of the hallway, (loved that list), there is already some tension amongst our group on stepping around this..er...junk? hahahaa  One of our crew (Deb) is already AWOL, I already hear grumbling amongst the rowers hahaha  and methinks here as we are creakingly setting sail before sunrise that this is going to be no ordinary journey. Did anybody bring seasickness pills? hahaaa

 I am really looking forward to tomorrow. Me too, Barbara, and now like most trips all our anticipation comes to a height with our actual embarkation. WILL this cruise live up to the expectations or will we all be stricken with mal de mer?

I just read Book I again before coming in here and am struck by how much there IS in it. Element after element fly by and are repeated. Let's make a list of what struck you. We've got Odysseus as "cunning," (Lombardo), we've got Zeus constantly referred to by Telemachus as in charge of everything, it's their (the gods)  fault, all of it, man proposes,  in this case the gods dispose....we've got "They are eating us/ Out of house and home, and will kill me someday" from Telemachus , l. 268 (L), (Deb suggested we say whose translation we're quoting from), we've got Laertes, Odysseus's father,  withdrawn up on the mountain..so we've got a kingdom, a regnant queen, a presumptive heir, (how old IS he, anyway?), and the original king? Up on the mountain. We've got the famous Greek hospitality where the stranger is entertained first and then asked to tell his story, we've got Telemachus coming of age here and taking over, "you should go back upstairs and take care of your work...Speaking is for men, but for me/ Especially, since I am the master of this house."

Hoo.

And there's more! That's a lot for a 4 minute read. So what we want to know now is, which element, maybe one not mentioned here yet, for YOU seemed the most important? What do you want to talk about?

Our opening question by Joan K (we'll use your own questions here) is:

 Is it confusing that Homer starts in the middle of the story, well into Ulysses voyage? Did you realize that that is what he is doing? Why do you think he does that?

Now we know that starting in the middle is characteristic of epics, so we could speculate instead about why? I admit, I do find it confusing and frustrating. I want to hear the end of the siege of Troy, but I guess I'll have to wait.


How do YOU feel about where this story begins?

Thrown into this what JudeS defined yesterday as "in medias res," (see heading), a literary technique where the reader is plunged right into the action, what is your reaction? Why do you think Homer started here, at home?  What do you think is the most important thing IN this section?

What, in short, DO you think, about this or anything else? The  deck is now open for your thoughts? Bon voyage! :)




BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #504 on: February 15, 2011, 06:48:32 AM »
My read is from the Fagles and I am immediately caught into the story - I love how he asks the Muse to sing him of the man of twists and turns - that description alone fascinated me and brought me in wanting to know more.

And then to finish [do we call this a stanza or a strophe? Although I think a strophe is two stanzas answering each other - help what is it called when these 12 lines have a break?  Does reading Homer give us another description of the poetic form?] anyhow back to the finish of this first break - the last line - start from where you will- sing for our time too. the line made me feel like a 10 year old sitting with knees hugged waiting with bated breath for what will come next.

And then such adventure with phrases like avoided headlong death - oh my just the grits for a listener looking forward to a sword clashing adventure.

Where the Sungod sets and rises - reminds me of Native American literature based on the comfort that the sun rises from and sets in the earth.

Oh this is so much better than a movie - it is like the adventure stories I read as a child and my imagined picture of the action was so much richer than any movie was ever able to produce. And on top the sound of the words rolling around in my mouth reading this - pure wonderment.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Babi

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #505 on: February 15, 2011, 08:55:57 AM »
 It occurs to me that as this story begins, it is not known that Odysseus
is in the middle of his journey.  Most presume him dead. It is only when
his son starts out to try and find out what happened to his Father, where and how he died, that the story of Odysseus re-emerges. It does
make a logical introduction to the story. 
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ALF43

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #506 on: February 15, 2011, 09:48:15 AM »
Thank you for the explanation of what exactly an epic is, it does help.  Also, I will keep in the back of my mind the one thing that really struck me.  Written in the introduction is this statement:

"The special virtue of Odysseus, the one from his youth up raised him conspicuously above other brave and chivalrous men,was, everyone agrees, his intelligence.   He had a keen man's love of daring plans and zest for unusual adventures.  He was quick to read other men's minds, grasp the meaning of a situation, exceedingly fertile in resource and persuasive in counsel.  Withal, he was canny, cool-headed, able to keep his own excitement under control.  He never let a good scheme be spoiled for lack of a little caution and patience in carrying it through."

That tells me all that I need to know.  BUT-- but-- will I embark as an adversary during this journey, to defame and defile our gallant, wily protagonist or will I choose to be  a beneficial and benevolent friend to our hero?
HMMM--By the description above, me thinks my allegiance should be as a faithful, loyal friend.  I'm not certain that I would like to cross this guy so I will pull on my big girl panties and fight to the end for my legendary hero. ;D

Ginny, it is my understanding that O left his homeland for Troy when Telemachus was a baby.  He has been gone for 20 years.
Is that right????
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

Gumtree

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #507 on: February 15, 2011, 09:51:55 AM »
I think most of those at Ithaca - presume Odysseus to be dead but the gods tell us that he is still around. Poseidon is the one who makes it impossible for him to return - but we hear

... to be sure, earth-shaking Poseidon has not
Killed Odysseus but does make him wander far from his homeland.
Well. come now, let all of us here carefully devise
His return, so he may arrive ...
(Lines 74-77 Albert Cook)

So we do know that he is still alive.

I love how this first chapter introduces us to so much - several of the Gods, especially Athene as herself when among the Gods and disguised as Mentes whilst with Telemachus in Ithaca, the suitors, Penelope, Telemachus. Lots to sort out and already some action taking place.
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

Gumtree

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #508 on: February 15, 2011, 10:05:10 AM »
Speaking is for men, but for me/ Especially, since I am the master of this house."

Ginny: It's interesting already to note the differeces in the translations.This is how Cook puts those lines-

This talk will concern all the men,
But me especially. For the power of the house is mine.


I just love that last sentence - For the power of the house is mine. - almost gives me shivers especially coming from this young man who is just beginning to assert himself.

I'm off to compare a couple of other versions...
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

PatH

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #509 on: February 15, 2011, 10:59:50 AM »
It occurs to me that as this story begins, it is not known that Odysseus
is in the middle of his journey.  Most presume him dead. It is only when
his son starts out to try and find out what happened to his Father, where and how he died, that the story of Odysseus re-emerges. It does
make a logical introduction to the story. 
Good point, Babi.  The Gods know where Odysseus is, but there isn't a single human who even knows he is alive, since his whole crew has been killed and he is trapped with the goddess Calypso.

PatH

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #510 on: February 15, 2011, 11:23:49 AM »
For the power of the house is mine.

That's the best version of that line.  Fagles says  "I hold the reins of power in this house."

I was a bit put off by the preceding lines, though, in which Telemachus pushes his mother back to her lowly female role.

"You should go back upstairs and take care of your work,
Spinning and weaving, and have the maids do theirs.
Speaking is for men, for all men, but for me
Especially, since I am the master of this house." (Lombardo)

sandyrose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #511 on: February 15, 2011, 12:49:37 PM »
I prefer the Rieu, " for I am master in this house" because it tells me he is going to be the boss so the power of the house is not lost. It is more to the point for me--that Telemachus must take control.

Dana

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #512 on: February 15, 2011, 01:41:08 PM »
I love the way Athena eggs on Zeus to do something about Odysseus and he wants to have a discussion about it,  (come now, we're all at leisure here...let us take up the matter of his return) but she leaps right in there, tells him to send off Hermes and takes off herself to put some backbone into Telemachus.  And then the first thing T. does to show his new found maturity is be rude to his mom.  Super!  We really haven't changed a bit.  She goes off to bed gazing in wonder, you can imagine her shaking her head and thinking what's come over him all of a sudden.......Next he's rude to the suitors, tells them in no uncertain terms to assemble tomorrow because he's going to tell them to leave.  They are are stunned by the change in him too....by now their teeth seem fixed in their underlips, Telemachos' bold speaking stunned them so......then he goes off to bed, still accompanied by his nurse though!  Lovely.

Mippy

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #513 on: February 15, 2011, 02:17:16 PM »
in medias res:  in the middle of things,  in the midst of events
How does the reader feel?  If you are a modern reader of novels, it feels familiar.
My reaction was:  oh ... no wonder so many modern, and of course 19th century novels, which I've been reading all my life, start in the middle.  It was a traditional way to start a story.

Moreover, the listeners in ancient times did not have the concept of libraries, they had the experience of tales being told and songs being sung over and over.

For example, we sing our 2-year old grandson the Fuzzy-Wuzzy was a Bear song (we made up the tune) and he shouts out: now sing Medium!   so we sing F-W was a Medium-size Bear, etc.
Then he shouts Big,  and ... you see the pattern ... then he shouts Little.   But he does any order
he wants.   Is that how the human brain learns patterns?  Who knows, but perhaps the bards of old sang the favorite verses over and over, and the listeners learned the songs ... but learned the favorite verses more easily.   Recall there was no copywrite.  Listeners were supposed to learn and repeat the songs to others.

Back to the home coming of Odysseus:  could this have been a favorite episode?  Is that why it's first, ahead of the long, hard-to-learn "songs" about the long journey?  What do you think?
quot libros, quam breve tempus

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #514 on: February 15, 2011, 02:57:43 PM »
Oh I like that Mippy - yes... a favorite part of the story becomes the starting place  

PatH I read somewhere and cannot remember that these suitors were eating them out of house and home - they all but moved in and either the remark is made or it is something known that they were consuming all Telemachus' stores and wealth - evidently Penelope does not have the power it takes to get them out of her house or for treating the house as their own.  

Another 'Candle in the Wind' that we saw in Diana - no matter how accomplished, beautiful and caring among the powerful it looks like unless, women are willing to ignore what is feminine and attractive to fight on 'guy' terms, regardless how young, the guys have it - and so I wonder Dana if she is shaking her head as she goes off to bed - part of it appears to me that mother's train their boy children to take their place as 'masters' which puts them in the forefront of a power play.

I guess the practicality is as you say Sandyrose - he will be head of the house - and then this is the common history we share that adds to the equality issues of today - this is not the discussion to examine it however, the concept of a women in the role of powerful leadership seems to tip the scales away from her being an attractive feminine women dreaming of her man. And yet, guys can be virile dreaming of their love while in battle gear.

The time on this - I was under the impression there was a 10 year war at Troy and a 10 year sea journey.

I wonder if there are as many translations of this story into the modern Greek as there appears to be in English.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #515 on: February 15, 2011, 03:11:20 PM »
MIPPY: "could this have been a favorite episode?  Is that why it's first"?

Good point. What do the rest of youi think?

PATH, SANDY, DANA: react differently to T's statement to his mom. Is it adolescent rudeness or a necessary part of growing up?

Already we havve three women (Athena, Penelope, and the nurse) and we can tell a lot about the role of women. What do these three women tell us?

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #516 on: February 15, 2011, 03:13:03 PM »
Barbara posted while I was editing. Do you all agree on the role of women?

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #517 on: February 15, 2011, 03:15:54 PM »
Poseidon is away
The gods will play!

Can they sneak O home only because angry Poseidon, god of the sea, is away and not paying attention? Those gods are a hoot!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #518 on: February 15, 2011, 03:51:54 PM »
Hmmm - had a thought after reading  your post Joan - I want to remember this exchange with mother and son or rather son to mother in reaction to these over-zealous suiters - if we are saying Penelope has no power to get rid of them and still remain the 'good' wife - the attractive wife waiting for the return of her lover, her husband - being the 'good'  women raising her son as is expected in a community setting - compare that to the times in the story that Odysseus is so called captured and held supposedly against his will be females - I want to see if the story shows the differences - my guess is what a women can do alone isolated from a community ethic allows her the power to take what she wants where as in a society the dualistic beliefs that are justified with biology hold sway.  
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Dana

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #519 on: February 15, 2011, 04:00:51 PM »
I think we have three powerful females here, each in their role, which we will find out more about.

I think Telemachos' behaviour is adolescent rudeness and a necessary part of growing up, you know, like toddlers say no to establish their independent identity, teenagers do the same thing over again. And then you have the shifting back and forth--rude to mom and suitors, nurse still tucking him up at night.  I think its very cleverly done.