Classics Book Club, The

[pedln]

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Welcome to

The Classics Book Club, now discussing

Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey


February 15-21: Book I: Meanwhile, Back in the  Castle....

Penelope at her Loom
John William Waterhouse
1912

  

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  

Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:

kidsal: Alexander Pope, George Palmer
Dana: Fitzgerald
Gumtree: Butler, T.E. Lawrence, Cook, Rieu
EvelynMC: S.H. Butcher and Andrew Lang
Mippy: Lombardo
Roxania: Lombardo
Pedln: Pope, Fagles, Butler
PatH: Lombardo,
JoanR: Fagles
Frybabe: Butcher and Lang
Deb (bookad): Lattimore, E.V. Rieu
roshanarose: T.E. Lawrence.
JudeS: Fagles
Babi: Robert Fitzgerald
Mippy: Pope, Lombardo
ALF43: Butler (corrected in edit)
Babi: Pope? Fagles
BarbStAubrey: Fagles
straudetwo: Lombardo
rosemarykaye: Fagles
caroljwl: Fagles
JoanK: Fagles.
sandyrose: Rieu,Lombardo
ginny: Lombardo, Fagles, Pope, Murray, Butler

Homer and the Epic Form:

By definition an epic is a long narrative poem, written in lofty style and dealing with the preternatural exploits of a national hero. Certain accepted conventions mark the epic. The most important are these:

A:The theme is a series of adventures befalling a national hero.

B:The poem begins with an invocation of the Muse (the goddess of epic poetry, one of nine goddesses of poetry and of arts and sciences.)

C:The poem begins in 'media res'(in the middle of things) . What has happened before is told by flashbacks.

D:A classic ,dignified meter is  used. In Greek & Latin dactyllic hexameter.

The Stock Epithet

Homer uses many stock epithets, the conventionalized adjective or descriptive phrase applied again and again to persons and things.Morn is usually rosy fingered;the sea is wine dark or loud resounding;Odysseus is brilliant Odysseus or Odysseus of many wiles. Scholars realized that the poet used set combinations , of noun and epithets as building blocks to fill out his six foot lines .Brilliant Odysseus for for a two foot space and for a three foot space he had Odysseus of many wiles.This became an accepted device for Greek epic style---(From
 Greek & Roman Writers by McNiff)--- Submitted by JudeS

It is only when his son starts out to try and find out what happened to his Father, where and how he died, that the story of Odysseus re-emerges.

Babi, that makes such good sense.  Yes, definitely a logical introduction.

I’m not sure I think Telemachus was rude to his mother.  Pope expresses it a little differently

“What Greeks new wandering in the the Stygian gloom,
Wish your Ulysses shared an equal doom
Your widow’d hours, apart, with female toil
And various labours of the loom beguile;
There rule, from palace-cares remote and free;
That care to man belongs, and most to me.”

Mature beyond his years, the queen admires His sage reply,
and with her train retires.

But Butler lays it on a little stronger

“Make up your mind to it and bear it.
Odysseus is not the only man who never came back from Troy.
.   .     .   Go then, and busy yourself with your duties .  .  .  .
for speech is man’s matter, and mine above all others
--for it is I who am master here.”

But if there were a vote, I'd take the Cook
"The power of the house is mine."

[Dana]

Pedln, how interesting, I think Pope's is a mistranslation.  The Greek word is thaumazo which means be amazed at, wonder at, not necessarily the same as admire. The Greek for the suitors reaction is thambysasa which means be astonished at,marvel at

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh Good - I did not know you understood Greek Dana - you are just the one I need to help me understand - being able to understand the translation of a word - what a gift and I hope you can sort all this out - I really want to understand.

I've been reading how the Greek used by Homer is supposed to be so different than modern Greek and there is an older version of Greek that is after Homer that is not the Greek used by Homer which is supposed to be even more ancient - and so I am thinking like English went through change and some of the old books like Beowulf need to be translated and interpreted for us to understand would be like the older version of Greek -

Even though I am not schooled in the older English I can pretty much get a gist of what is being said - but then I do not believe we have an ancient form of English not spoken by the average English speaking world as we are supposed to know there is this ancient form of Greek not spoken by the average Greek that is used for these Epics -

My question -  what is used - what dictionary or thesaurus or other writings are used by authors who translate this ancient Greek into the Iliad and Odyssey - I do know that the first known texts were continuous marks with no word or sentence breaks - but if this ancient Greek is anything like the old English there must be more than separating a line of marks into words and sentences.

I have read that there are fragments of papyrus and that the first known full story is a hand written copy of the Iliad and Odyssey in 900AD preserved in St. Marks in Venice but again - what did they use as the basis to translate the ancient Greek into something that someone like yourself who knows Greek can understand today. Is there a web site that those of you who understand Greek can go to see the translation of the words - and most of all - do you have any idea how many modern Greek translations of this story from old Greek is available to the buying public...

In fact among those of us on this journey it seems to me there are a several who understand Greek - please I would like to understand and have a clue what the Greek speaking public is using to read these stories. Do folks who read the stories know the old Greek in addition to modern Greek? Are these stories taught in Greek schools today or are they so well known that the story is passed down in families?  Is the language difference between the ancient and modern so well known among Greeks that they can easily read the story and it is only the translation of the ancient Greek into a European language that presents a problem. For that matter the translation of any language presents many problems with most poetry and so I can only imagine.  

Hate to go on but one more - the markings I have seen in pictures of this ancient Greek remind me of how the Chinese markings for ancient poems can be interpreted many ways because there is no direct translation - of course they use a form of pictographs - is that what is going on with the ancient Greek markings when the Epic was translated and put into the 24 piles of papyrus that became 24 books?  

[ALF43]

Am I reading this correctly?  As Zeus is speaking with Athene he reminds her that Poseidon is still angry with O for having blinded an eye of Polypehemus, king of the CYCLOPES?  Don't cyclopes only have 1 eye??

 ???Also- I have the Butler translation and when Telemachus speaks with Athene, the goddess, he calls her sir.

[Dana]

Hi Barb, I don't think I can answer most of your questions.  I am learning Attic Greek, but the other forms of ancient Greek, homeric and ionic  for example are not that different--tt instead of ss, alpha instead of eta, for example.  There is also koine Greek which is used for most of the new testament which is a later form of Attic (300BC to 300AD)
My textbook had examples to translate from Homer(7-800BC) to Herodotus (450BC) to Thucydides (400BC).  Also bits of Plato, Sappho, Aristophanes and the new testament--all slightly different time periods, but all translatable, so I don't think the differences are that dramatic.  My Greek lexicon quotes all the possible forms which is why it is v. large (although only "intermediate" !) and practically requires a magnifying glass to decipher.
I know nothing about modern Greek.

[sandyrose]

In the Rieu also Telemachus addresses her "sir".   Not wanting the suiters to know

Lombardo though says "My dear guest....

And how do other translations describe the eyes of Athene???
Rieu uses, bright-eyed and flashing eyes,

but Lombardo (who calls her Athena) --owl-grey, owl-eyed, sea grey, grey as saltwater and the Grey eyed One ( G and O in caps)

When I good searched it, it seems the most-used is bright-eyed.  What is in your translations???

[ALF43]

Dana- I didn't see Telemachus'es behavior as that of an adolescent, but rather as a young man who "feeling a new courage" takes the helm.  He is the man of the house and acted as such.  He called the suitors shameless and asked them to leave.  I like a guy who takes charge.

[PatH]

Quite right, Alf, Polyphemus had only one eye.  Lombardo says

   ...Odysseus blinded his son, the Cyclops
Polyphemus.  (His of course being Poseidon's)


Athena appears to Telemachus as a man, Mentes, son of Anchialus.  Telemachus quickly realizes he is talking to a god, but doesn't know which one, so it would be reasonable to say "Sir".  Lombardo carefully avoids gender-related pronouns here.

[roshanarose]

Barb - You have opened the Pandora's Box that is the Greek language.  I found a beautiful Greek papyrus, circa Medieval  (File:P46) in Wiki to illustrate a Greek manuscript.  Don't give Wiki too much stick about being unreliable, because I can understand some of this Koine/Medieval Greek because at least two of the words are Demotic (Modern Greek).  

ενσαργανηεχαλασθηνδιατουτειχουσ
καιεξεφυγοντασχειρασαυτουκαυχασ
θαιδειουσυμφερονμ[ε]νελευσομαιδε
εισοπτασιασκαιαποκαλυψεισκυοιδα
ανθρωπονενχωπροετωνδεκατεσσαρων

translates as:

"...[and I was let down] in a basket [through a window] in the wall, and so escaped his hands. Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--"

So we know that this Greek is Koine or Medieval Greek because of the mention of Christ.  I was able to cut off the Greek script at "man ..... fourteen" because I know both of these words from Modern Greek.  Koine was fast approaching what we know as Demotic, ie Modern Greek today.  I will need to check my Liddell and Scott Lexicon later and let you know if the same words were in Ancient Greek.
Just one more point, when I zoomed in one the papyrus, I noted that the script was written in capital letters, not lower case, as below.  Also, note that there are no accents.  I would have to become a Greek scholar to be able to tell you the difference between Koine and Medieval (Byzantine) Greek, but all this to me is fascinating and I will see what I can find out.  In addition, Barb, I need to go through your questions and answer them as best as I can.
 
 I have to rush off now as I am tutoring a Uni student in Academic English and have to meet him.  No.  He's not Greek, he's from Afghanistan.

[BarbStAubrey]

Thanks Dana - trying to get a run down in the history of this Epic just passed down in the Greek language - I really wonder now if there are as many translations of this Epic from these old forms of Greek to modern Greek as there seems to be translations available to us in English - I Also wonder what is the Greek used in the hand written copy of Homer housed at St. Marks in Venice?  

This is like trying to track down the various interpretations of the Bible - there are all these active translations and at least with the Bible we have a few known sources that later translators used but its the understanding of language and customs like in this ancient text that has developed with more equipment that gives us more archaeological answers  -

I had limited my thinking to the developments we read about when scholar-translators, as a result of their formal education, over the centuries attempted to change meter and poem form as compared to how the peasant in the street converses - the history of the legacy of the changing language of this Epic sounds like it could be a lifetime of research in itself

roshanarose do you have any idea of the number of translations into modern Greek are sold today? And also, do you have any idea if this Epic is read or taught to the young Students in Greece or is the story an elective pursued in college?

I am thinking of how we know our own history - some, because we learned it in school but much, because many children visit local historical monuments, participate in parades and holiday celebrations that bring the story to our attention. Also, there are popular movies that bring the nation's history to our attention.

(Amazing is, if you ask a youngster here in Texas about the Revolutionary War they know that it happened someplace back east if they have been in the 5th grade - but ask them about the Texas Revolution and like my grandboys they could almost tell you the number of bullet holes in the Alamo. Since Texas history is 6th grade mandatory they learn who was captured where and when - including,the quotes kept alive from many an average participant.  In addition, another semester in High School and in order to graduate from a state College you have another semester of Texas History - so folks know their stuff.)

Reading how Homer's Hero Poems are emblematic of the Greek nation I just wonder how the story is kept alive and relevant.

[roshanarose]

Barb - Thank you for your interesting questions.  You have a very enquiring mind.  I wish you had joined my Greek class which I taught about one year ago.  I have got lots of material about the history of the Greek language, and a fascinating history it is, at least to me.  I did a search, and put in the search box "ancient greek into modern greek the odyssey" and got one good hit, straight from the horse's mouth, ie from a Greek.  I hope it helps.

 "Hi,
I'm a greek and I would say it's a complicated situation.

All greek junior high and high school students take 6 years of ancient greek classes at school and at the last grades Antigoni, the Heliad and the Odyssey are some of the "text-books" used at class. So most greeks have an understanding of ancient greek and it's usually quite easy for an educated person to understand a phrase in an older form of greek.

Of course, since greek is an evolving language, nobody SPEAKS ancient greek. It's a written language so even philology graduates won't speak the ancient greek language but they will be able to read it. I stress this because a lot of non-greek people actually say that they speak ancient greek, which to a greek sounds completely weird! The ancient greek language (at least in a greek's point of view) exists only as a written language and nobody is supposed to start a conversation in ancient greek or Koine unless they're quoting an old text. Of course there is some people who use Katharevousa or archaic language in some contexts (the current archbishop of Athens and a lot of clergymen for example tend to use a lot of archaic forms in their speech inside the church, of course the use modern Greek in everyday life and interviews).

Anywayz, although the language is the same and almost all of the modern words are derived from ancient Greek, the older the text is the more difficult it would be for a common greek to understand it. For example an average greek will easily understand the Bible (written in Koine) without trouble, but will need time or even have to ask somebody else in order to "decode" a text written in the 5th century Attican language.

Thus, even my grandma who's a primary school graduate will easily understand Koine and read the Bible in prototype.

A lot of ancient greek, Koine and Katharevousa phrases are also commonly used in modern speech.


So, to sum up, I would say that modern day greeks won't have much trouble to read something in Koine and Byzantine Greek since it's very close grammatically and lexilogically to the modern language. When ancient (mostly Attican) language comes into consideration then most of greeks won't get it immediately but will have to think a little or even ask someone's help in order to understand a phrase. Nevertheless a greek would probably get the meaning out of a carved script (for example on ancient statues, pottery or columns in a museum) but won't usually try to do it since carved text doesn't have spaces and it will take quite a lot of time to separate the words and then find the meaning..."

To say it is complicated is something of an understatement.  I see the way youngs Greeks learn the Odyssey at school, similar to the way we learn Shakespeare at school.  We HAVE to learn it and may not appreciate it for its literary merit until much later, if at all.  In Australia Greek children are still sent off to "Saturday schools" to improve their Greek.  I hsave never met one young Greek who enjoyed "Saturday school".  I, have however, many people who as they got older and began to appreciate the Greek culture, applied themselves with zeal to language and literature of Greece.

I wrote My Masters thesis about language shift and maintenance in Modern Greek.  In brief, most of it boiled down to "losing the language" = shift with the young Greeks  because they were made fun of at school, when they took Greek food for lunch; , holidays and many other factors.  The kids were under pressure at home to keep the language, but at school they were under peer pressure to "conform" to what an Australian kid should look like and act, etc.  The language maintenance "keeping the language, was most often the result of a kind of "valorisation" of the language, ie its prestige value in the outside world; endogamy(marrying into the ethnic group); pressure from parents; return trips to the home country (Greece) and several other factors.  It  was a fascinating study.  I learned so much.  I didn't meet anyone who had read the Odyssey in Greek though 

[BarbStAubrey]

Wow - thank you - I am so glad you shared - interesting and amazing how we admire this story as something so special and yet, to Greek Children it is something they 'have to' learn using their playday, Saturday, to learn the Greek and hear the stories. Sounds typical of many first generation immigrant children. The Indonesian children here have a similar experience but I do not hear them complaining - maybe they all have 'Tigar Moms'   whatever their experience they are all very accomplished and bright kids.

 But 6 years of Greek and reading these classics - wow - that impresses me - we have put so much emphasis on comtemporary literature that most kids here no longer read Shakespeare much less the Classic in their English classes till they take English Lit. in College.

Well there are more forms of Greek than I ever imagined and the one word is something I need to better  understand "Katharevousa" - it seems to be bridging the old Greek to the modern Greek - does the part of the word 'Katha' have a meaning like a suffix or a stem or a root -

[BarbStAubrey]

  Did  y'all see this KIA ad where Poseidon come roaring out of the sea - funny -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLGj6iSZvak

[Gumtree]

Sandyrose:  The Cook translation uses 'bright-eyed' for Athene and sometimes Pallas Athene.

The epithet 'Pallas' is perhaps thought to be either the name of her father or one of her childhood friends. Athene killed Pallas in some accident and afterwards used 'Pallas' with her own name as a kind of remembrance.
In some myths Athene is associated with an owl so maybe that's where that epithet comes from - doesn't appear in Cook so far anyway.

The Cook version has Telemachus addressing Athene (disguised as Mentes) as 'stranger'

[ginny]

Gosh what a rich discussion, and what different things you all see. Fantastic beginning! I wish Butler had put line numbers, I can't seem to see him saying ANYTHING about eyes on Athena whom he calls Minerva. Strange again, I've always heard grey for Athena's eyes, she's wise like an owl, isn't that her symbol of wisdom? Here's one reference: http://gogreece.about.com/cs/mythology/a/mythathena.htm

Interesting Fact about Athena: One of her epithets (titles) is "Grey-eyed". Her gift to the Greeks was the useful olive tree. The underside of the olive tree's leaf is grey, and when the wind lifts the leaves, it shows Athena's many "eyes".

Here we have, in the first few pages,  a huge and complicated scenario. For a blind 3000 year old bard, this is some kind of socko beginning.

Great stuff on Greek here!

Am I reading this correctly?  As Zeus is speaking with Athene he reminds her that Poseidon is still angry with O for having blinded an eye of Polypehemus, king of the CYCLOPES?  Don't cyclopes only have 1 eye??  Right, at least he had one, of course, as we shall see, he was depriving Odysseus's men of more than that, but the Graiae only had one eye between the three of them, so he was ahead.  Usually portrayed as in the middle of his head, ugly guy in more than one way.

_____________________

To me, and perhaps only to me, this supposedly more simple story than the Iliad, and supposedly less intricate,  is harder to read WITHOUT background research. To Homer's audience, the mere mention of this or that figure, Agamemnon or Poseidon, would bring an exclamation of "oh yeah,"  of recognition from the audience, to us, all we hear is  WHO? WHAT? HUH? Another name? It's like War and Peace (which actually is not a bad comparison hahaa), name after long name starting with a capital letter.

Those  of you talking about Telemachus's speech being the master or holding the power or whatever phrase was used, master  of the house, I am perplexed, what do you suppose he MEANS? He's finally going to step up to the plate? What does THAT mean for Penelope?

Usually a book will start with ONE...tension. Dramatic tension. Here if we count the ways, how many do  we have?

Odysseus is missing, presumed dead. Lombardo has T saying I know he's dead. Tension #1.

But we know, only because we are privy to the discussion of the gods, that he's not. Tension #2. So what person and voice is this told in?

The gods are apparently running the show, tension # 3.   They are having a confab, they are in charge. These Greek gods are quite capricious and perhaps not what YOU want in charge of YOUR life but early on we see they are definitely in charge of man.

Athena appears in the guise of a man, a stranger, tension #4. Note that it's apparently not uncommon to see god in the face of a stranger, to welcome that stranger INTO your house before you even know who he is (the famous Greek notion of hospitality, very important, we'll see it over and over again), but Telemachus knows this is a god. Perhaps these ancient 3,000 year old people were somewhat a step above us, no?

How times have changed! You certainly couldn't do that today.

At any rate, she's come to.... what? Direct him on his path, so he's going on a  journey too. Tension #5, a Bildungsroma for Telemachus?

Meanwhile the suitors are literally (Lombardo) eating them out of house and home. All the translations I have say this. They are rowdy and obnoxious at the same time. Tension #6.

Here's my question, why can't Penelope get rid of them? Tension #7.

How old is T anyway? How do the Greek states rule their kingdoms? We have a kingdom with a 20 year absent king, missing, presumed dead. There WAS a king, Laertes, Odysseus's father,   did he abdicate? Took to the hills, how old IS he? He's too old to resume? Telemachus is too young? So that leaves Penelope to do her best and here her son comes and...feels it's time to take over?  Assume the mantle? (Why do I keep thinking of Queen Elizabeth and the Heir in Waiting?)

So he's feeling his testosterone oats? Is there any mother of sons who has not startled at the son's having opinions or giving a manly instruction? Tension #8. Always a shock and no matter how gently done (and I agree he's not very gentle here, to my mind, but he IS young at this)  somewhat amusing, makes one feel 100 years old, right? Reversal of roles, child parenting parent, but is Penelope ready for this? How old IS she? In her 40's?

What tension is this, I'm losing count. So now he's leaving, but he's going to take on the suitors first.  Tension #9. What will be their reaction?

Get out, he says.  I am now the master of this house. My kingdom. I hold the power now, I'm of age, c'est moi, not my mother, get out.

How well do you think Penelope has handled this so far? 10 years! Who is handling it better, Penelope or Telemachus? What are his chances, realistically, alone against this horde of men?

I liked the ideas some of you had on why we're beginning here, at home. Could the reason be possibly that THIS is the most important thing in the entire Odyssey? Not the Odyssey or journey  itself but the reason for it?  Could in fact Homer as some of you think be sandwiching the journey by the two ends of the Nostoi, return or  homecoming?

There seems a missing element here which Homer's listeners would know which I don't: what's the protocol for handing over a kingdom? Why would Laertes's  (Odysseus's old father, the former king) old supporters not support HIM in moving back and retaking what obviously was his old kingdom? Is he too sick or ill? See what happens, this old woman muses, when you take over from your elders and throw them out? We need to understand how these kingdoms are turned over?  Why has one of the suitors not made a bold move against the others? This is really quite interesting.

Of all the tensions so far, which do YOU think is the most important?  Is there one I've missed? Will Homer somehow manage to follow ALL these themes or threads to the end?

Can't you just see everybody hunched around the fire waiting breathlessly (I know I am) for this or that thread to come to fulfillment? Which one is the most important?

In your opinion?

This business on  a man of twists and turns, I don't have twists and turns. What does that mean? Let's examine the first description of Odysseus in YOUR book, what is it? Lombardo has "cunning."
Butler has "ingenious," Pope has "the man for wisdom's various arts renown'd/ Long exercised in woes..." Dr. Murray has "the man of many devices,"  is this tension #10, the character of Odysseus?

Such a simple little fairy tale. hahahaa

Which tension or thread are YOU most interested at this point in seeing tracked? What have we missed? What to YOU is the most important plot development in these opening lines?

A drachma for your thoughts! I think I missed one, what is it? I'm thinking it's the wily Homer at this point, he's the man of twists and turns.

[ALF43]

GINNY ASKS:

Here's my question, why can't Penelope get rid of them? Tension #7.

You're kidding right?  She's as wily as our Odysseus.  She is a single parent, alone in beautiful, luxurious surroundings.
She has maids and men that do her bidding whenever she wishes.  I think she's smart to let the fools sit around and party.  They will protect her and her riches with the presumption that one of them will soon be the KING!

[roshanarose]

Gumtree : My interpretation of Pallas Athene relates to her childhood friend, whom she accidentally killed.  I have never quite understood the importance of "Pallas Athene" as a common epithet, mainly because there is so little written as to its meaning in the Classics.  Athena Nike (Athena Victory) is more widely applied.  One can perhaps assume that Pallas Athene is a much older and less understood (or used) epithet.

We can only wonder as to why Homer usually gives his goddesses such beautiful descriptions/adjectives before their names.  The "grey-eyed" adjective applied to Athena in Greek is the word "Glaukos", although because it refers to a woman it would more likely be "glaukia" or "glaukee", which has an interesting modern meaning for us, as the word/condition "glaucoma" comes from "glaukos".  According to Homer her eyes were grey, but she probably didn't have glaucoma.  This is a case of English borrowing from Greek, obviously.  There are many of these words/conditions in Greek, both Modern and Ancient, and they only make Homer's works the more interesting and descriptive.  Another example is "wine-dark sea" and I am busily going through my files to find a very interesting take on the use of colour according to Homer that I  found somewhere.  "Rosy-fingered" dawn makes perfect sense to me, particularly after you have seen a dawn in any island of Greece.  "Wine dark sea" is a little more difficult to comprehend.  The light in Greece is renowned for its changeability, but I have never seen the sea "wine dark".  I think I need to see that description in Homeric Greek before I can translate.

Ginny - Sacre Bleu!  I am hoping that someone else will tackle those "tensions".

Katharevousa means purified.  The Cathars of France borrowed this word from Greek; and also the word "catharsis" springs from it.  In MG the word "katharo" κάθαρω means to clean or cleanse. After Greece had settled down from its many conflicts in relatively modern times, there was a purist movement in Athens to get rid of Demotic (the language of the people) and replace it with a basis of Attic and other ancient dialects in order to retain the linguistic purity of ancient times and bridge it into modern day language.  The movement failed because of a counter-move to keep Demotic as the national language.  Demotic won, thank goodness, and the language of the people reigned.  This was rather a tumultuous time in Greece (when isn't?).  If you really need to know the intricacies of the story just do a search for "Katharevousa".  I studied Katharevousa for a semester, and it was some kind of hell as there was no dictionary for it, and we had to translate/interpret a word using just our present knowledge of AG, tainted with Koine leading into MG.  For anyone who was not a true Hellenophile, this was extremely challenging.  Can you imagine?

[Babi]

 What a great observation, BARB. I had never thought to compare
Odysseus' captivity to Penelope's situation.  I'll keep that in
mind.
 Where, please, is this exchange between Telemakhos and his mother?
I can only find, going back, the one following her request to the
minstrel not to sing the story of Odysseus, because she find it so
painful. I felt his reply showed a lack of understanding of her
feelings, but not rudeness.
  I'd also like to know how some of the other translations refer to
this young man. Fitzgerald keeps referring to him as 'clear-minded'
Telemakhos. I sounds awkward. "Clear-minded Telemakhos" did this,
said that, ..repeatedly. What do some of the other translations say?

[sandyrose]

Gum and Ginny, thank you re: Athena's eyes.  Do not know why her eye color struck me, perhaps because it was said many times.  I love this from Ginny's link above..
 
Interesting Fact about Athena: One of her epithets (titles) is "Grey-eyed". Her gift to the Greeks was the useful olive tree. The underside of the olive tree's leaf is grey, and when the wind lifts the leaves, it shows Athena's many "eyes".

[kidsal]

Pope says Athene has celestial azure eyes.  There is no recurring descriptive name for Telemachus.  Usually just referred to as "he."  Does use young, royal youth, bold, and blooming heir of sea-girt Ithaca.

[JoanK]

GINNY::Here's my question, why can't Penelope get rid of them? Tension #7.

ALF: You're kidding right?  She's as wily as our Odysseus.  She is a single parent, alone in beautiful, luxurious surroundings.
She has maids and men that do her bidding whenever she wishes.  I think she's smart to let the fools sit around and party.  They will protect her and her riches with the presumption that one of them will soon be the KING!

Good point. I had the same question. Fagles says she "would" not end it (the suiter's pestering).

But then I saw that Lombardo translates the same line as she "could" not end it. Big difference.

We will see in the next book how wily she is being.

[JoanK]

Fascinating information on the various forms of Greek, and on the study of Greek in Greece. And on the attempt to make ancient Greece the official language. I can only com,pare it to the movement in Israel (which DID succeed) to make Hebrew, a language spoken by no one, the official language. The difference is in Israel, there was no other commen language, as immigrants were coming from all over.

The story of Greek immigrants in Australia sounds just like immigrants here in the US. I'm reminded of a friend from Salvador who says her daughter won't speak Spanish because it's "boring". The cliche is that thefirst generation clings to the ways of the :"old country", the second generation is split: some remaining with the old ways and some becoming assimilated (I saw that with my second generation father and his siblings) and the third generation is assimilated.

[JoanK]

The "wine dark sea" fascinates me. Another place, Lombardo (I think it was) has someone sailing the "deep purple".

Perhaps there was an algea bloom in Homer's day, and the sea was actually purple (!?!)

[Frybabe]

Just popping in to say that I am switching from the Butcher and Lang to the Pope version. The B&L version did not hold my interest. In fact, I found it a bit hard to read the prose and make much sense of it. And, I didn't care for the "th" word endings they used. Maybe that's because I was tired when I started reading the first book.

[JoanK]

Good choice. And if you don't like Pope, there are other translations out there, free or almost free.

[BarbStAubrey]

Had to look up this nurse - Eurykleia - evidently she is more like the head of the household - like Mrs. Hughes, house-keeper in Downton Abbey. She was also Odysseus' nurse when he was a child and of all the servants the one they can trust, who is loyalty which evidently was a big deal in ancient Greece to have anyone in your household that you could trust. She also takes Telemachus to the hidden room with all of the wealth owned by Odysseus so he understands his father's wealth.

I am reading outside the book to get a handle on these characters - it appears that Odysseus has power in the community - I cannot figure out if he was a governor of the town - or, if his house like these old English Estates that I can wrap my head around - if the family estate was large and with all sorts of support farmers, wine makers, horse breeders etc. the head of the Estate so to speak is like a governor or mayor.

Regardless all the intrigue it would seem that if the governor or mayor disappeared after a great battle with no one knowing what happened for the sake of the Estate it is logical, regardless how the story exploited this fact, that a new leader was needed - and it looks like - why am I surprised but then am I really - women had no power, no rights to land or wealth and so Penelope could not simply fill her husband's place - although, in the ninth century BC there is Sammuramat; an Assyrian Queen, wife of Nimrod - from what I read she did accompany her husband into battle - the women's role seems to be tied to if she was still a feminine love partner and looks like Sammuramat's military genius resulted in a win so she used her success to calculate Nimrod's murder. Not exactly in keeping with the picture we're told of Penelope at the loom.

Than I thought, what happens to a widows in ancient Greece -  Turns out - If she is poor she went back to her family. If she were rich as our Penelope she got a new husband, usually a relative of the deceased husband. And then I remembered, years ago one of my friends in Kentucky was Jewish - back in the 50s and early 60s in Lexington that was like someone from Mars had landed. Anyhow, in the early stages of WWII living in Holland her father was taken - she was not much more than a baby, she and her mother were in hiding and within a week after the war her father's brother, who had not died in the camp, married her mother - When I looked quizzical she explained - that was how it was done regardless if the brother had another wife he married the wife of a deceased brother and had two wives. In this case there was no other wife. At the time I was only knowledgeable of marrying for love so it was all a new concept to me. Now I can see that is how windows were cared for and not tossed out with the garbage.

I think it is easy for us to imagine from our 'marrying for love' point of view that Penelope chose to wait because of love - but I wonder if there is some other message here - I read patience being banded around and loyalty - hmmm with how the loyalty was valued in servants I wonder if loyalty was the currency.

They got into this mess, as I again read - because of Odysseus' bright idea after a dozen suiters were after Helen and to keep those who lost from killing one another he suggests this pact - forget its name - I will see if I can find it again - Oh all you scholars of Greek probably know it on the tips of your fingers - anyhow, the pact was agreed to by all these guys that they would come to the aid of any of them that was  under attack. And so Agamemnon uses the pact as the way to hoodwink Odysseus into his war - now the bit that has the gods taking Odysseus on this journey I am going to be looking at with judicious eyes - these gods sound to me more like the conscience of the character - back to Flip Wilson's  comedy routine - "The devil made me do it."

To follow up on the rights of a women during ancient Greece - All houses belonged to men. Women were secluded into part of the house. The only houses that men did not own would have been the temples for the goddesses. The roles the women had in their separate portion of their house included spinning and weaving, cooking, carrying water, cleaning, and serving food. Some women also performed musical instruments and danced. Huh nothing here about raising the children - I bet that was a given.

After all that I have a new picture of "the nurse" who evidently was a slave and therefore never married because that would have shown to the master he could not trust her and her loyalty would be in question.

[JudeS]

Knox in his intro to the Fagles;  This is my synopsis but I feel an important point to remember throughout the Epic.

The Odyssey owes much to its power to enchant so many generations of readers to its elegant exploitation of something that war temporarily suppresses or corrupts--the infinite variety ofthe emotional traffic between male and female. Homer
displays an understanding of human psychology throughout.
A case in point is the first encounter between members of the opposite sex-Telemachus and Penelope in Book 1. She has just told Phemius to change his tune since the one about Odysseus pains her.  Telemachus intervenes to remind her that Phemius is not to blame for her sorrow, it is Zeus who allots to mortals whatever destiny he pleases. He concludeswith harsh words to her: ......"Mother go back to your quarters . Tend to your own tasks.....As for giving orders men will see to that.....'
At this point (and other), it is important to remember thatTelemachus has grown to manhood  without the correction and support of a father! He has been raised by women and so his normal adolescent rebellion wil come out strongly against women!As soon as his mother leaves he anounces he will call an asembly where he will give HIS orders to the suitors.
Like Shakespeare, Homer is an expert in Human Psychology, and perhaps, that of the Gods as well.
 

[BarbStAubrey]

Wow - no rights to even change the TV station 

[BarbStAubrey]

I bet quarters means the women's part of the house - I wonder when it was OK for the women to be out of their quarters?  I wonder if she would be in this part of the house if her husband Odysseus was there - I wonder if there was a natural area or, if the houses were divided into men's and women's quarters - if so, was Penelope in this section of the house only because it was where Telemachus should be now that he is no longer a small child - hmmm lots to understand here in just that one phrase isn't there...

[BarbStAubrey]

OH yes, I thought the phrase was familiar - my youngest grandboy reads Patrick O'Brian's series about the sea and one of the books is called:
The Wine-Dark Sea

Look another - Over the Wine Dark Sea by Turteltaub

Hmm  I wonder if it is not so much about purple or deep red but about that inky look that the sea can look like on a warm night - but in Homer's time there would be no ink and the closest thing to use as a metaphor or simile would be wine.

Joan I did not know Hebrew was a language not typically used - was there a part of the world that used Hebrew as compared to other parts of the Jewish population spread all over before WWII? What is the difference between Yiddish and Hebrew?

[Frybabe]

Love your post, Barb. This bit

within a week after the war her father's brother, who had not died in the camp, married her mother

I believe this is common in oriental families.

[Dana]

Well I agree of-course Jude.  (About Homer having psychology down pat)....just like Shakespeare and Sophocles....I think this is why they last...we can give any other type of explanation, but basically it boils down to if it rings true to our unconscious knowledge of what makes sense....this is why I love the description of Telemachus' final maturing....and he was a bit delayed...has to have been 20, as Ginny pointed out, and Alexander commanded an army at 16,  Augustus rose to prominence at 19 (or so).  (This is why I had high hopes for the untried Obama although of-course he was much older....not to be, unfortunately....)

[roshanarose]

JoanK and others interested in Homer's use of colour - This is a hotly debated issue among linguists and folks with an interest in the psychology of colour etc.  I found the article I alluded to earlier, but it is too long to post here.  The link follows :

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/61

And below is one of the comments on the article:

"I cannot believe that the whole theory of "under-developed eyes" of the ancient Greeks is still promulgated as well as the theory of linguistic relativity. As the ideas of the ancient Greeks existed even before Plato so too did the ideas of Emmanuel Kant in German before he coined new terms for his philosophies. But I digress, the point is, colour perception and colour naming are very different things (the two may not be mutually exclusive, but they are perceptually and qualitatively different between languages). The theory of the evolutionary development of the ancient Greek eye (as for colour perception) has been disproved on any number of accounts, particularly in light of a few points: 1.) the person who decided that the ancient Greeks were not as developed in sight was altogether an amateur philologist and the then Prime Minister of England in 1858, Gladstone, who posited that the paucity of colour terms in Homeric Greek must equate to them being colour blind. Right, so we have a NON-Scientific approach which is completely unfounded - bravo! I suppose he could find some retinae lying about from 800-500 BC and perform a rod and cone analysis of the retina, which would be the scientific approach. This smells of the same 19th Century approach that the Germans used, for denigrating the modern Greeks... positing that all Ancient Greeks were blonde and blue-eyed and so the moderns were no longer heirs, (apparantly the Germans were heirs-apparent)... smack of "Aryanism?" (SIC) by Fallmeyer?! Sorry this is just utter crap, And 2.) The ability to distinguish 7 colours in a rainbow (from Aristotle's De Anima in which he states the 7 colours of a rainbow reflect the 7 tones of musical notation and possibly the 7 heavenly spheres, and explanations on refractivity of light in Ptolemy's Optica, to name but a few). This point espouses the ability of the ancient Greeks to finitely determine the seven colours of the visible spectrum of light (Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo, and Violet).

It is however true in my personal opinion, that the sea is wine-coloured (as per Homer) whereby if you have ever seen the swirly waves of seas during storms, which appear dark/hazy and sometimes dark blue almost purpley. The wine-coloured aspect must be thought of as swirling wine in a cup (not distilled) that is more akin to a Ribena berry juice colour rather than a brilliant red. Don't think of the coast of the Mediterranean as being aquamarine, journey further into the sea under stormy weather and then see if it's brilliant blue!). C'mon these people were seafarers, not coastal amateurs!

A quick read through Liddle and Scott will show a plethora of colour terms or colour associated terms in ancient Greek, and just like chloros is yellow-green, there is prasinos = green from prason = leek (the vegetable). Even in English, green and grow are from the same root word (in accordance with J. Pokorny and his PIE linquistic theory) which imply a young growing plant or shoot/shrub, so too the ancient Greeks applied their colour terms. So language develops the need to describe colour as it applies to the situation and that is what Ancient Greeks did...FYI a few colour terms in Ancient Greek (Homeric to 5th C Attic)"

I cut this opinion without including the colour terms, but they may be viewed, along with other opinions on the link given above.  Enjoy - I did.

Μου αρέσει 

Re the language question (Katharevousa).  Joan I am sorry if I gave the impression that Katharevousa was JUST Attic Greek.  That would have been much easier to learn, but it wasn't, it was a polyglot of past varieties of Greek including Koine, Medieval.  It was however, predominantly Attic Greek, but also with smidgens of Demotic.  The Purists invented a whole new language, in fact it is called an "artificial language".  As I understand it, Katharevousa is still used in the legal professions and other bureaucratic organisations and also some churches. 

The language question in Greece was very similar to that of Israel in that it was (not so much now as Demotic takes over) a true Diglossia.  That is two varieties of the language being the standard.  Although I studied all this, it is quite difficult to explain without resorting to lengthy quotations.  May I be charitable and say that even though Katharevousa served its purpose for a certain part of Greek society, the majority of Greeks are happy to use Demotic, ie the language of the people.

[roshanarose]

Probably a good time now to quickly? note some differences between Attic Greek (AG) and Modern Greek (MG).  

1.  The pronunciation is different for several letters.

2.  The endings of words differ.

3.  AG is laden with what are called "particles", MG Greek uses only a small remnant of these.

4.  The accentuation system is different.  AG uses acutes, circumflexes and graves.  MG did too, up until 1982 when the accentuation became monotonic, ie only one accent per word.

5.  AG has "breathings", MG doesn't use them.  e.g. Hydra in AG is pronounced as Heedra, in MG it is pronounced as Eedra.  Helen is Eleni in MG.

6.  The good things about AG and MG is that many, many abstract nouns remain the same in both languages.  Over thousands of years of linguistic evolution this is kind of comforting to the MG learner.  Many verbs also reflect this sameness.  Some colour adjectives are the same, some not.  I put a quiz about AG and MG colours together if anyone is interested in taking it.  I would email it to you.  For masochists only, but fun.

7.  In general, having learned a little AG and a lot of MG, I would say that MG is much easier.  Amen to that.  

8.  Both AG and MG have three genders.  Feminine, Masculine and Neuter.  (I could go on about cases here too, but grammatical stuff is a bit too dry for most).

Please bear in mind that this list is not written from a scholarly point of view and is by no means exhaustive.  They are just points that I can think of now.

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh this is great - we have so many with different experiences that we are able to dig deep to get a better  picture of what we are reading other than simply taking the observations and scholarship from those who translated the work as 'the only' guidance to what we are reading -  the realization that folks who lived 11 thousand  years - wow 11 thousand years ago would have the knowledge and insight that we enjoy and yet, to realize how much of their morality and experiences we can relate to - what blew me away was to realize how the best laid plains of mice and men sorta thing that still plagues leadership is  with good intentions caused Odysseus to get himself involved in what became the direction for his life and seriously affected the life choices of his family.

roshanarose several of us would not know if the list of differences was exhaustive or not - but having an idea that there are differences helps to put into perspective what the translators over the centuries are dealing with. I can see the advantage now of having access to several translations and I am so pleased that we have that access here in our group - this is s dream experience.

Now I must say I have not ever seen a wine colored sea - even a raw wine colored sea but then I do not think I have ever seen raw wine - fresh grape juice yes, and that is pretty dark and if the sun is below the horizon but its glow is still in the sky I could imagine the reddish tinge to a dark grape juice sea - I just have not see it - inky dark yes, - wine dark no  but again I can imagine it.

Now for me the morning is NOT lovely, gentle, picturesque, rosy fingers - I've seen too many dawns from the edge of the mesa across from my house or from a dune on the Gulf Coast. The sun starts with a glow and then a sliver of a furnace hot flame of fire red that turns the window panes into ruby blood shot eyes - I am expecting any moment a god like size iron hammer to strike the earth where the sun is coming up as a blacksmith strikes an anvil - where as on the Gulf Coast it is as if a red ball of fire has engulfed the entire stretch of water and half the sky with the other sky half like half a bowl fading from indigo to navy to marine and finally settling into an orangey golden yellow reflection from a nearly white hot yellow sun against a light blue sky. The sky goes from trumpet's red glare to flutes.

But then 11 thousand years ago there were no trumpets - not for another seven centuries and bone flutes just do not wake the gods much less me in the morning. In spite of my annoyance with the sun-god's rude awakening I can still think that near Greece maybe some fairy pulled rosy fingers across the sky before he awoke. - or in this part of the world we just have a different sun-god who is not as mildly mannered as the sun-god in ancient Greece or Ethiopia or where ever he lived.

[ginny]

What an interesting article on color. If Homer were blind as has been believed, would he actually know what the colors were?

C'mon these people were seafarers, not coastal amateurs!   hahaha, well there you are.  I love these off the cuff  comments on posted articles.  I'm a coastal amateur and I saw no wine dark sea. It's true on the cruises we took that the sea takes on strange colors but it didn't look like wine. (Or anything I've ever seen in a bottle, and I DID look continually for the wine dark sea).

The wine-coloured aspect must be thought of as swirling wine in a cup (not distilled)

I am not an oenophile, (or an ophthalmologist) but having just had a thorough grounding in my face to face class on the properties of the proof of wine  and distillation of same  (of which I knew nothing) I wonder what kind of moonshine hahaa  this person is acquainted with?

 hahaha Have any of you ever swirled non distilled wine in a cup? I think the possibility among the readers here and of that article in general is probably nil? In the interest of accuracy and fully embracing the story,  does anybody want to try making their own?


What a fascinating seque, and POV, thank you for bringing it here, Roshannarose.

This was interesting, Barbara: OH yes, I thought the phrase was familiar - my youngest grandboy reads Patrick O'Brian's series about the sea and one of the books is called:
The Wine-Dark Sea

Look another - Over the Wine Dark Sea by Turteltaub

Do you think that these authors were referring TO Homer's descriptions as a nod to great literature, rather than indicating the seas ARE wine dark? Another example of the influence of Homer? Or not?

Psychology, well we've come to the right place, I keep forgetting Dana is a doctor in this field, so I will rely upon her help us not miss   the psychological implications of what we're reading, great point Jude S.  I think we're admirably suited for this voyage and I love the enthusiasm here and expertise.

Barbara, you radiate, I love it. Good point on the nurse, I sort of glossed over the nurse as he's got to be 20 at least, but I do think she's also an important character.


Now the would/ could thing on Penelope seems MOST important, thank you for bringing it up, Joan K.

What do your translations all say about Penelope's ability to get rid of these guys?  Let's get the lines for easy reference: are we talking about lines 266-267? Lombardo has T say (and T is the one saying it, we've not heard from Penelope) "She refuses to make a marriage she hates/ But can't stop it either."

"They are eating us/
Out of house and home, and will kill me someday."

That's his opinion. What's hers?

Either way,  there's a little bit of stress. They are eating US out of house and home and will kill me someday.  I'm thinking, Andrea, that any mother who sort of played along with this one is nuts, right?

So what is she doing here, she can't be enjoying this? Barbara asks if she can come out of her quarters, would YOU all want to come out with a house full of cigar smoking drunkards making merry and eating your food day and night? Demanding that you make a decision. Stress, stress, stress.

Joan K says To follow up on the rights of a women during ancient Greece - All houses belonged to men. Women were secluded into part of the house. The only houses that men did not own would have been the temples for the goddesses. The roles the women had in their separate portion of their house included spinning and weaving, cooking, carrying water, cleaning, and serving food. Some women also performed musical instruments and danced. Huh nothing here about raising the children - I bet that was a given.

So what do the suitors need her for?

I still think there's something missing here about how the Greeks ruled their kingdoms.

I think the most striking thing to me so far, the most serious tension or thread is the gods. You don't find too many books starting with a confab of gods deciding on the fate of the characters, nor do you find them taking on disguises and appearing amongst man? Do we? When's the last time you saw the gods all getting together and taking a part in the life of the protagonist?

Isn't there a TV show where that does happen tho? I am also thinking of the old movie with Cary Grant and Loretta Young, The Bishop's Wife where Cary Grant (was it?) appeared as an angel.

But it looks as if this first book has neatly summed up all of the state of being in a capsule. Odysseus (Ulysses) is  not dead, he's caught on the way home, the situation meanwhile back at the castle, and not incidentally,  the role the gods are going to play in this set out first. What odd gods they are, interfering in the life of man as they do, why is this so up front in the beginning?


Am I the only one with the Greek edition? We need to see, as Sally has put: Pope says Athene has celestial azure eyes. we need to see the Greek word and have our experts here tell us what it actually means?

SandyRose, I also liked the grey sided olive leaf allusion. I have always wanted an olive tree, but was put off by the time they take to bear, NOW last summer I just learned you can't eat them right off the tree at ALL! They HAVE to be processed, who knew?


Jude, those are excellent points, too, male/ female (that's thread #11) and T growing up without a father, good points. So he really has NOT had a male example, his grandfather is off in the mountains, the only males, the  suitors,  are rowdy and eating them out of house and home, it's a mess. I'm still trying to figure out which is the most predominant stressor, possibly the suitors? Brought on by the absence.

I tend to look at things like this: if the suitors were gone, what would be the stress? How would the story be different by removing this or that stressor?

O being gone might be a setback,  but they could (and  apparently are) have dealt with that? So it's the suitors, they want the kingdom and she, naturally, does not care for a forced marriage. They don't want to force the issue (why not?) and so things amble along 10 long years,  till the gods  in the form of (Athena) stir  T up.  As Book I ends,  he promises  in the morning (Lombardo has him calling them at the end of  Book I "arrogant pigs," he's going to tell them to get out.

Antinous, a suitor,  immediately recognizes that T has been prompted "by the gods, " but he's not deterred because he also has a prayer: "May the son of Cronus never make you king/ Here on Ithaca, even if it is your birthright." So it seems it's whoever has the most favor with the gods may win, the fact that T is obviously spoken to by the gods means nothing, as Antinous seems to feel the gods are an EOE.

When you start talking about Cronus you go way back. Cronus was the precursor of the Olympian gods, he was a Titan,  children of Uranus and Gaia, Heaven and Earth. These are the oldest creation myth gods.  Cronus and his sister Rhea had many children, which Cronus swallowed so as not to be supplanted, but Rhea hid Zeus on  Crete when he was born and handed Cronus a stone instead, which he ate. Possibly Cronus was not the brightest bulb in the firmament. I love these old creation stories.

When Zeus grew up he forced Cronus to throw up the stone (now traditionally displayed  at Delphi) and all his swallowed siblings.  Zeus et al., waged war on the Titans and won, the Titans  were consigned to Tartarus. This extraordinary narrative of succession is paralleled among the Phoneticians and the Hittites in the 2nd millennium BC,  and it's thought they may have brought it to Greece sometime.  Part of it shows the separation of Heaven and Earth.  A completely different set of myths has Cronus after he got the kingdom from Uranus ruling in the so called Golden Age on earth, this was almost an Eden.  Cronus is "mainly a figure of myth (rather than of religion) and rarely the object of a cult. The Romans identified him with Saturn." (Oxford Companion to Classical Literature).

Cronus is an old god, I love "the son of..." Everything in the Iliad is "the son of" half the time you don't know who you're talking about, also especially strong in Jason, everything is the "son of Aeson." So genealogy does seem to matter.

You really can't help comparing this to Milton's Paradise Lost and  another creation of heaven and earth.

We sure have covered a LOT in these opening pages, that's a heck of a lot of plot for 14 pages.


What will happen, one wonders?  Shall we read on now and find out?  Do we feel confident enough with Book I already?  Could we/ should we  do 2 and 3 for Monday? I want to see what happens at the meeting the next morning.

What other thoughts do you have on Book I?

Off to a great start!

[Frybabe]

"May the son of Cronus never make you king/ Here on Ithaca, even if it is your birthright."

Okay, so if Odysseus were history (which they are all assuming), then the one to inherit the property would be Telemachus. But at what age? I expect that the suitors want to marry Penelope before he comes of age thereby usurping his birthright. Was there a proper waiting period for missing husbands before they are declared dead? What happened to property if there wasn't a male heir?

[Babi]

 Well, we have a marked difference in translation of the scene between mother and son. In Fitzgerald, Penelope has come down to ask the minstrel to sing something else. [side note: it does seem to me that after 20 years she should be well past this point of grief. Could it be part of her campaign to keep the suitors at a distance?"]
 Anyway, Telemakhos tells her, as Jude posts, that the 'poets are not to blame, but Zeus who gives what fate he pleases to adventurous men". But then the translation changes markedly. Fitzgerald has:
"Men like best a song that rings like morning on the ear.
 But you must nerve yourself and try to listen. Odysseus was
 not the only one at Troy never to know the day of his
 homecoming."  Then, per Fitzgerald,
"the Lady gazed in wonder and withdrew, her son's
clear wisdom echoing in her mind."

[Gumtree]

Albert Cook treats that passage-

...Men acclaim the song the most
Which has come round newest of all to those who hear it,
Let your mind and spirit resign you to listening.
Odysseus is not alone to have lost his day of return
In Troy. Many other mortals perished there also.

Then Telemachus tells her to - get back in house etc.
ending up with-

For the power in the house is mine.

She was amazed at him and back into the house she went.
The sound minded speech of her son she took to heart.
She entered the upper chamber with her serving women,
And then wept for Odysseus, her dear husband, until
Bright-eyed Athene cast sweet sleep upon her eyelids.

[roshanarose]

Quote from Barbara : Than I thought, what happens to a widows in ancient Greece -  Turns out - If she is poor she went back to her family. If she were rich as our Penelope she got a new husband, usually a relative of the deceased husband. made me think of Catherine of Aragon "Humble and Loyal" who when 3, was betrothed to Arthur, son of Henry VII of England.  Arthur was not quite 2 at the time.  Arthur was a sickly youth, and after his death, Catherine was betrothed to the future Henry VIII, Arthur's brother. The primary reason for the betrothal was Henry VII's desire to keep Catherine's dowry.
Source : www.tudorhistory.org/aragon

I am not too sure if the notion of dowry existed in Ancient Greece, but it certainly would be a strong incentive to keep the bereaved daughter-in-law "in the family". I found this portion of an article in about.com ancient history, which may shed some light on Penelope's situation.  Of course, this can only be conjectural regarding Penelope in particular.

Types of Marriage:
There were two basic types of marriage that provided legitimate offspring. In one, the (male) legal guardian (kurios) who had charge of the woman arranged her marriage partner. This type of marriage is called enguesis 'betrothal'. If a woman was an heiress without a kurios, she was called an epiikleros, and might be (re-)married by the marriage form known as epidikasia.
It was unusual for a woman to own property, so the marriage of an epikleros was to the next closest available male in the family, who thereby gained control of the property. If the woman were not an heiress, the archon would find a close male relative to marry her and become her kurios. Women married in this way produced sons who were legal heirs to their fathers' property.
Dowry:
The dowry was an important provision for the woman, since she would not inherit her husband's property. It was established at the enguesis. The dowry would have to provide for the woman in case of either death or divorce, but it would be managed by her kurios.

This explanation raises the question:  Who was Penelope's guardian (kurios)?  Telemachos?  Or, is it possible that this "law" was post Bronze Age?