Author Topic: Classics Book Club, The (Read 493830 times)

Mippy · « **Reply #560 on:** February 17, 2011, 11:00:41 AM »

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.

Welcome to

The Classics Book Club, now discussing

Free SparkNotes background and analysis on the Odyssey

February 15-21: Book I: Meanwhile, Back in the Castle....
February 22-29: Books II and III: Telemachus, Nestor, and Agamemnon

Penelope at her Loom
John William Waterhouse
1912

Discussion Leaders: Joan K & ginny

Maps:

Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:

kidsal: Alexander Pope, George Palmer
Dana: Fitzgerald
Gumtree: Butler, T.E. Lawrence, Cook, Rieu
EvelynMC: S.H. Butcher and Andrew Lang
Mippy: Lombardo
Roxania: Lombardo
Pedln: Pope, Fagles, Butler
PatH: Lombardo,
JoanR: Fagles
Frybabe: Butcher and Lang
Deb (bookad): Lattimore, E.V. Rieu
roshanarose: T.E. Lawrence.
JudeS: Fagles
Babi: Robert Fitzgerald
Mippy: Pope, Lombardo
ALF43: Butler (corrected in edit)
Babi: Pope? Fagles
BarbStAubrey: Fagles
straudetwo: Lombardo
rosemarykaye: Fagles
caroljwl: Fagles
JoanK: Fagles.
sandyrose: Rieu,Lombardo
ginny: Lombardo, Fagles, Pope, Murray, Butler

Homer and the Epic Form:

By definition an epic is a long narrative poem, written in lofty style and dealing with the preternatural exploits of a national hero. Certain accepted conventions mark the epic. The most important are these:

A:The theme is a series of adventures befalling a national hero.

B:The poem begins with an invocation of the Muse (the goddess of epic poetry, one of nine goddesses of poetry and of arts and sciences.)

C:The poem begins in 'media res'(in the middle of things) . What has happened before is told by flashbacks.

D:A classic ,dignified meter is used. In Greek & Latin dactyllic hexameter.

The Stock Epithet

Homer uses many stock epithets, the conventionalized adjective or descriptive phrase applied again and again to persons and things.Morn is usually rosy fingered;the sea is wine dark or loud resounding;Odysseus is brilliant Odysseus or Odysseus of many wiles. Scholars realized that the poet used set combinations , of noun and epithets as building blocks to fill out his six foot lines .Brilliant Odysseus for for a two foot space and for a three foot space he had Odysseus of many wiles.This became an accepted device for Greek epic style---(From
Greek & Roman Writers by McNiff)--- Submitted by JudeS

This is off-subject from the Odyssey, but does address ancient language, to answer a post above:

Barb St A. wrote: I did not know Hebrew was a language not typically used - was there a part of the world that used Hebrew as compared to other parts of the Jewish population spread all over before WWII? What is the difference between Yiddish and Hebrew?

Since the First Diaspora of the Jews, in the 8th-6th centuries, B.C., Hebrew had been used in prayers and, at some period in time, to write out the Five Books of the Old Testament, but no country in the world had a Hebrew-speaking population for centuries. At the founding in 1948 of the state of Israel, which had been called Palestine under the British Mandate (1923-48), there was considerable controversy about what the language of the new state would be, with some politicians suggesting Yiddish, some even suggesting English, but Hebrew won out. It's difficult to learn, but is wonderful!

Yiddish is a "mash-up" of Hebrew, German, and a little English. It was widely spoken in Eastern Europe, Poland, and the Pale in Russia, and widely used in theater, including vaudeville, and newspapers, and was the published language of many famous novelists and essayists.

I watched my grandparents reading Yiddish newspapers as a child and was puzzled by the Hebrew characters in which they were written. Yiddish theater has almost ceased to exist, although in New York City there have been many attempts to revive it. Yiddish is a rich and beautiful language, but has, likewise, no country to call home in the 21st century.

Dana · « **Reply #561 on:** February 17, 2011, 11:32:21 AM »

The word used to describe Athena is glaukopis Athene.
In the lexicon glaukos= "in Hom.,prob. without any notion of color, gleaming, silvery, of the sea. Later,certainly with a notion of colour, bluish green, gray, Lat. glaucus, of the olive. glaukopis as epith. of Athena, with gleaming eyes, bright-eyed."

glaux, glaukos is the word for owl, "so called from its glaring eyes" Athena is also called owl eyed I believe.

JudeS · « **Reply #562 on:** February 17, 2011, 01:33:12 PM »

Sorry to interrupt with a side issue but these are the facts about the revival of the Hebrew language.

Eliezer Ben Yehuda (1858-1922) was the driving spirit of the renewal of the Hebrew language. Born in Luzhi, Belarus he went to school to learn hebrew at the age of three (This was the custom among the Jews).Later he studied French, German and russian. There was , at that time a hebrew newspaper which he read. Thus he became acquainted with the new Zionists led by Theodore Herzl.
He studied the history of the Middle East at the Sorbonne in Paris and became convinced that without hebrew as a national languagethere could not be a jewish State.
Ben Yehuda emigrated to Israel in 1881 and raise is son entirely in Hebrew. He became part of the Hebrew Academy of languages whose task it is to bring Hebrew into the modern world. This group existseven now integrating new words like computer, to key in etc.etc. Ben Yehuda created the first Hebrew dictionary, wrote articles for newspapers and journals in hebrew and became the "Father of the Language".
He died in1922. 30,000 people came to his funeral. It is said that before Ben Yehuda people could speak Hebrew, after him, they did.

mabel1015j · « **Reply #563 on:** February 17, 2011, 02:06:06 PM »

Hi all, i'm lurking since i don't have time to re-read the book - in ANY translation,

. I've got two books i've borrowed from friends and must get them back in a reasonable time and a book from interlibrary loan that i must return in three wks.

But your discussion is so interesting that I'm peeking in each day to eavesdrop.

The last time i read Odys was in 1967 when i was the lead teacher in a group of five who developed a hi schl humanities program for the sophomores. The course was based on my world cultures course that Pennslyvania had just instituted. My main partner was the English teacher who choose all the literature to go w/ the culture i was teaching at rhe moment. We started w/ the creation story from the Bible and she paired that w/ Lord of the Flies as a beginning and an ending of societies. Then as i was teaching Egypt, Greece and Rome, she
taught The Odysessy. The rest of the team were an ex priest who taught the religion or
philosophy of the time or place, an art teacher and a music teacher who put in their expertise.
The art teacher conducted world tours in the summer and had slides of the architecture and
art. All of the literature was from the culture, not some westerner who had written abt the culture.......... What fun that was to develop and to teach.

I'm looking forward to reading all the little tidbits of info you all provide...... Jean

mabel1015j · « **Reply #564 on:** February 17, 2011, 02:12:44 PM »

P.S., i love the picture of Penelope at her loom w/ all the suitors. Thanks to whomever found it and placed it, Joan or Ginny....... Jean

ginny · « **Reply #565 on:** February 17, 2011, 02:15:24 PM »

Welcome, Jean!! That sounds like a great teaching experience! If you like that one, definitely don't go anywhere, we've got literally almost a million of Odyssey illustrations.

Do you have any insight on why Penelope couldn't get rid of the suitors? So glad to see you here!

mabel1015j · « **Reply #566 on:** February 17, 2011, 02:27:25 PM »

OMG Ginny, i don't think i can remember any details from 40 yrs ago. Unfortunately, i only got to teach the course for two yrs, i got married and moved to your town in 1968.

Barb mentioned
"I am thinking of how we know our own history - some, because we learned it in school but much, because many children visit local historical monuments, participate in parades and holiday celebrations that bring the story to our attention. Also, there are popular movies that bring the nation's history to our attention."

I always said to my students, particulary my college students, and other adults w/ whom i talk history, " as far as we know......." or "most historians believe........" bcs we are learning new history everyday and still historians have disagreements abt what is " truth" . Actually that's part of the fun of history for me. I just love continuing to learn new perspectives and new "facts"........ Jean

rosemarykaye · « **Reply #567 on:** February 17, 2011, 03:58:39 PM »

Jean - I so agree; what would life be like if we were not continually learning new things? Although I do think my appetite for this has increased far more in recent years - when I left university I felt like I never wanted to read a book again, and when my children were babies I didn't have time to read much - now it's such a pleasure to find out as much as we can.

I feel that my education was very narrow so far as history goes - at school we did small parts of history in great detail, whereas I would like to have more of an overview. It's a bit like my driving - I have certain routes around this not very large city, but it's taken me years to work out how even some of the areas link up. Similarly, I struggle to understand how things happening in the UK at any period relate to things going on in, say, China, India or even the USA at the same time. When something does slot into place, it's such a revelation. If anyone can recommend any books that would help, please do!

Thanks

Rosemary

JoanK · « **Reply #568 on:** February 17, 2011, 04:00:30 PM »

GINNY: Barbara made the interesting comment about women being seclude that you attributed to me above.

Also from BARBARA: "Joan I did not know Hebrew was a language not typically used - was there a part of the world that used Hebrew as compared to other parts of the Jewish population spread all over before WWII? What is the difference between Yiddish and Hebrew?

Hebrew was (and still is) ananogous to church Latin, used in religious services, but not actually the spoken or written language in nonreligious affairs anywhere, as far as I know (in fact less used than Latin, which was used by scholars).

However, there is a lot of Hebrew in Yiddish. Yiddish is a vernacular which started in Eastern Europe. It is a mixture of Hebrew and German words, and is written with the same alphabet as Hebrew. Most Eastern European Jews know andd speak it. And there was a movement to make it the Israeli language. However, Jews from other parts of the world don't know Yiddish, including the many Sephardi Jews, whose ancestors had been expelled from Spain. The argument was that the language should be one that represents the heritage of all Jews.

Of course, a religious Jew would know a fair bit of Hebrew from studying the Torah and other religious books. But even so, not know words for many everyday things and activities. Biblical Hebrew, written for shepherds, is incredibly rich in words for all kinds of livestock, but poor in words for many everyday activities, not to mention things like airplanes and computers. One man, named Ben Yahudah, took it upon himself to modernize it by adding words for things not covered (for example the word for pen, et, is the old word for feather), and simplifying the grammar.

JoanK · « **Reply #569 on:** February 17, 2011, 04:04:45 PM »

But two languages are enough for us: greek and the sometimes obscure English it's translated into. I downloaded Pope's translation onto my kindle (it's free) and I couldn't understand it, even though I'd just read Lombardo's and knew what he was trying to say. FRYBABE AND OTHER POPERS: are you having trouble?

JoanK · « **Reply #570 on:** February 17, 2011, 04:13:12 PM »

JUDE: when I wrote the post above, I had somehow missed your post. Yes, Ben Yahuda was amazing. His dictionary was still the one I used when I was in Israel in the 60s. I just spent some time looking for it -- it is hiding in the same placeas the two copies of The Odessey that I can't find.

Having used it as a housewife, I can tell you one weakness at least: very few food names are in it. When I went to the grocery store, I wouldhave to bring the empty bottle, or the last scrap of whatever it was, and say "I want this".

JudeS · « **Reply #571 on:** February 17, 2011, 07:11:27 PM »

Joan Hi,
Can you imagine how many new words have been invented since Binlical times?
Knowing the development of the Hebrew language gives me a greater understanding of the discussion here of ancient Greek vs. Modern Greek. Knowing the Bible (in Hebrew and English) gives me insight into the world of the Greeks.
The basic emotions and problems remain the same....now as then.
Here is a quote from Greek and Roman Writers in a text by a Catholic Professor:
"Western culture is a stream fed by two main tributaries-one rising in Palestine, the other in Greece. To the Hebrews we owe the power and development of a personal God and a divinely inspired moral code....To the Greeks and Romans we are
indebted for the humanist tradition which has given us so much great literature, philosophy and art and which lies behind scientific inquiry."

PatH · « **Reply #572 on:** February 17, 2011, 07:15:41 PM »

Someone said that if Penelope married before Telemachus reached his majority her new husband would get the property. If that's so, I think Penelope was doing a very delicate balancing act. If she sent all the suitors away, one of them might carry her off, but if she keeps them all dangling, she is safe while they all think they still have a chance.

JoanK · « **Reply #573 on:** February 17, 2011, 07:27:16 PM »

JUDE: I had never thought about our heritage in just those terms, but that is very true. How lucky we are to be able to go so far back in time, and follow both those tributaries.

PAT: That makes a lot of sense of Penelope's actions.

PatH · « **Reply #574 on:** February 17, 2011, 07:29:51 PM »

I can't think about the story of Cronos without thinking of Goya's ghastly painting Saturn Devouring his Son. (Saturn=Cronos) Warning it really is ghastly--don't look at it right before eating.

http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/goya/goya.saturn-son.jpg

JoanK · « **Reply #575 on:** February 17, 2011, 07:37:16 PM »

Good Grief!! How yucky!

ROMAN NAMES: I notice that POPE uses the Roman names, not only for Odysseus (Ulysses) but for the gods. Do other translators as well? Does anyone need help with these names? The main ones so far are Athena (Minerva or Diana) and Poisedon (Neptune).

PatH · « **Reply #576 on:** February 17, 2011, 07:48:41 PM »

JoanK, once seen, never forgotten. I saw it (a copy, not the original) 50 years ago and still remember. Goya had a skill for the horrific.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #577 on:** February 17, 2011, 09:14:37 PM »

I've missed not being on top of the posts and having time to read about Troy and Homer - just caught up with the posts and THANK YOU for all the effort to explain Hebrew and Yiddish and the history of how Hebrew became the language it is today - facinating -

You know the thing that strikes me is how much change that we are hardly aware is happening and yet it is with us all the time - I am always struck when a water line breaks or a new commercial building's foundation which does go at least 5 times deeper than a residential foundation and they find our past in the process - even here in the states where our buried past does not include a thousand years much less thousands of years of western civilization - more often it is the evidence of Native village or camp grounds that is found - and now added to that I never realized before just how much change is in language - amazing - what a gift to have people who love language so much they want to learn other languages and to think, we are fortunate enough to have several of these folks right here in this discussion - wow -

Well all day today I was in training - from 8: to 5: - and all day tomorrow as well - we need all these hours to renew our license every other year plus this was training on working with seniors when they want to sell their home - not only the legal ramifications, but tax issues and then the biggie that is more evident in this age range - the families - some that pull apart and some that help and some that hinder and still other's want to take over - legally we have a contract with the seller and oh oh oh - then on top the older seniors - many times only when the will is opened or probated we learn that daddy had a couple of kids that no one knew about [that was a long war in far away land or daddy was a beatnik and sprinkled fairy dust children all over the map] and so there can be no sale till they are found - on and on it goes -

Interesting there was a young very attractive agent in her early 30s among us - we had to divide up by age range to learn how the different age groups like to communicate and so everyone could see the thinking of the different age ranges working on a common issue - anyhow chit chatting she was complaining how boys or young men today do not seem to know how to tell a girl she is pretty and ask girls out on a date. Looking in from the outside it was easy for us to suggest that because boys and girls are brought up together today without emphasizing the differences and both learn and compete when they are young it is difficult for boys all of a sudden to think of a girl as much more than one of the texting guys - friend, fellow and equal and now they should be opening doors for her or telling her she looks cute or is pretty much less taking her out in a way that makes him feel he is in charge.

That is when my thoughts went to Penelope - and women in general - there does not seem to be a way that a women can be a seductress or love interest and one of the guys, an equal - someone said it earlier - she may have been holding in tact the wealth of Odysseus for her son the only way she could while maintaining her femininity by stringing these suiters along till Telemachus was of age and could stand up for his rights. And it appears here we are 11 thousand years later and women still cannot be powerful, intelligent successful career women while being feminine enough for the guys to pursue her as a love interest.

Anyhow on top of all the classes when I got home at 5:30 I turned around after grabbing some grapes and a cup of coffee to attend a large neighborhood meeting held at the school with city officials because some newer residents do not like all the deer and see them as a nascence - they are pitted against the long time residents who are used to them and only grow as landscaping what the deer will not eat where the ones that want everyone to stop feeding them so they will disappear and they can have roses and pansies etc. in their front yards. Oh me oh my... and so it has been a long long day and will be another long day tomorrow with having to take a test in order to get credit - so I am off to study and will not be sticking my nose in here till maybe tomorrow night but for sure Saturday.

roshanarose · « **Reply #578 on:** February 17, 2011, 10:37:20 PM »

Some fantastic reading here. I hate to say this but I had no idea how Hebrew came to be the language of Israel. As noted many times before, everyone has something to bring to this discussion.

JudeS - Somehow I missed what you had written about why "Homer uses many stock epithets, the conventionalized adjective or descriptive phrase applied again and again to persons and things.Morn is usually rosy fingered;the sea is wine dark or loud resounding;Odysseus is brilliant Odysseus or Odysseus of many wiles. Scholars realized that the poet used set combinations , of noun and epithets as building blocks to fill out his six foot lines .Brilliant Odysseus for for a two foot space and for a three foot space he had Odysseus of many wiles.This became an accepted device for Greek epic style---(From
Greek & Roman Writers by McNiff)--- Submitted by JudeS"

This makes so much sense and has come to me as something of a revelation. I remember writing in one of my posts "I wonder why Homer uses colourful adjectives so frequently?". And now it is clear. The veil has been lifted from my eyes, so to speak.

JudeS - Interesting also to see how the early Greek alphabet, borrowed originally from Phoenician, Proto-Canaanite, has so many similarities to early Hebrew. Alpha and Aleph are identical in Ancient Athenian script as resembling a Bull's /Oxen head laid on its side, and Beta (both were originally pictographs) morphed into our B. That B originally signified "house" - a two-storeyed house, so common in warm Mediterranean climes, written as a tall box with a line through its centre.

Source: Reading the Past - Ancient Writing from Cuneiform to the Alphabet Intro. by J.T. Hooker. ISBN 0-7141-8072-6

I will definitely be taking this book on our voyage. It is fascinating.

Frybabe · « **Reply #579 on:** February 17, 2011, 11:58:09 PM »

Quote

FRYBABE AND OTHER POPERS: are you having trouble?

Not as much as I did with the Butcher and Lang translation, JoanK.
So far, the Roman names for the Gods haven't bothered me too much, except for Minerva (Athena). That one always makes me stop just a sec.

kidsal · « **Reply #580 on:** February 18, 2011, 04:53:49 AM »

Some questions from: Temple Univ:

Why is Athena so concerned with Odysseus? Why is Zeus so surprised with her plea? In the line ending her speech, the words "dead set against," odusso, puns on the hero's name.

Why does Homer tell the story of Aegisthus? Why does Athena mention Orestes to Telemachus?

Babi · « **Reply #581 on:** February 18, 2011, 08:41:06 AM »

JEAN, I love that team approach to an entire program. It is bound
to give the student a much clearer and firmer grasp of a culture and
era. Kudos to the Pennsylvania school system.
Oh, I do wish I had a clearer overview of world history. I am still
surprised at times to discover that such-and-such events were taking
place in Asia while Europe was doing thus-and-so. I need a large
chart that plots what was going on throughout the world in a given
time.
Thanks for bringing up that point about Telemakhos inheritance vs.
losing it to a new husband, PatH. It emphasizes for me the importance
of his making it clear to the suitors that he was now master of the
house and it was his decision whom, or if, his Mother would marry.
(If they were simply after the property, maybe some of them would
now go home!)

ginny · « **Reply #582 on:** February 18, 2011, 09:17:43 AM »

Wow, you all dazzle, I must say, such interesting things here today.

PatH! I had completely forgotten about Goya's representation of Cronus eating his children, what a horror that thing is! Good thing we know he had to throw them up alive. The last Goya exhibit I attended at the Met was a sold out venue and believe it or not, (this was years and years ago) Katie Couric and her children were there, she is some kind of tiny. SRO at that thing, wore one out trying to get IN it.

I think you must be right on Penelope. The organization of the Greek kingdoms has become my own personal bone to pick, I've got several books on the history of Greece, so I am going to keep on but I liked your thought: it makes sense when nothing else does.

The new book The Classical Tradition traces the path of Penelope throughout the ages and you all would be shocked (I was, anyway), at what different people in different times made of her. She's a saint representing true marital fidelity to some and a harlot to others believe it or not. It's amazing what different people throughout the different ages have interpreted from the same lines (maybe they are reading Pope hahahaa)...but still it runs a 360 gamut, all based on WHAT she was doing leaving those suitors there. And it goes right through every mention of her through time.

But it's one woman against a crowd of men in a man's world, and let's face it, Telemachus has been in a state of boyhood, so she's really had little choice. And from the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature's description of the times involved, I think she was lucky to be able to do that, apparently one made one's own laws in this time period, kind of scary. I now see her holding on to some ideal that perhaps (the suitors) not all share. I'd think the first 14 or so years she HAD no choice, it's tie a yellow ribbon time, she misses him and she's keeping the light on for him, and her only heir is a very young boy. But as the book opens, the veil is falling from his eyes, he's growing up, thanks to some prodding from Athena.

I wonder, do you? I think she might actually have gotten used to running the kingdom, do you? Like some military wives? Yes or no?

And the former king Laertes (I still don't understand him, maybe we'll hear more later ) and her own father (is he alive?) seem passive and silent. But they MUST have had SOME influence sometime or other (Or O did, somebody did) or the suitors would kill each other and the winner take the prize.

Andrea said it first: she obviously is ALSO cunning and wily, she and the "wily" Odysseus are a good match; she's also using her wits to keep for him (and for her) her kingdom.

But I KNOW there is a reason, otherwise throughout the ages people, especially the ancients, would have questioned this. There may NOT be an answer, after all it was the ancient Dark Ages , maybe nobody knows. I'll keep looking, I mean you have thousands of people setting out to help Menelaus get his wife back, the Trojan War, they swore a pact to help each other? But they are all home, Odysseus is the only one who has not made it in the Odyssey, he's still wandering...so why aren't they helping HIS family? Has she not called them?

Here's what I've found so far:

Quote

By 800 BC the population of Greece was already structured much as it was going to be in the classical age, and in communities that were somewhat different in organization from those of Mycenaean Greece, being small independent cities, which owed no allegiance to a higher authority. During the following century the art of writing was rediscovered, and there was a resumption on a large scale of communication and trade with the East, and the start of exploration and colonization in the West. Greece was now about to enter the period for which documentation exists.

Despite the fact that Greece was made up of a large number of independent communities, the Greeks formed a single people, with one and the same civilization; they spoke the same language and were distinguished thereby from the "barbarians;" there was a broad similarity in the political institutions (government in city-states, normally under oligarchic or democratic constitutions); they had a common religion and respected the same oracular shrines; they had a common heritage of literature from Homer onwards, and their art, despite certain diversities, had unity; many of the Greek colonies were founded in common by emigrants from more than one state." (OCCL)

In reading this I actually got chills. "Greece was now about to enter the period for which documentation exists." Talk about your wild west, it appears anything goes. Isn't it fascinating how this presages the so called Dark Ages which occurred after the Fall of Rome? (One never knows any more if the "Dark Ages" when Rome fell is or is not back in fashion?) Is it? But here we have a former Dark Ages emerging and here's Penelope alone holding out against it. I myself have lived thru three sets of thoughts on the Dark Ages: there was a period of Dark Ages after the 476 Fall of Rome, there was not a period of Dark Ages , there was a period: I don't know what they think now. Anybody?

Wow.

I'm beginning to wonder who the actual protagonist IS in this story? So far our hero of the Epic Hero is MIA. So for whatever historic or cultural reason, she's holding on by herself.

Man o man!

Oh my word and here comes Sally with the $64,000 question: the nature of the NAME of Odysseus!

I had found on another university site a set of questions on the Odyssey and have temporarily (I hope) lost them but Sally has hit the nail on the head?

Some questions from: Temple Univ:

Why is Athena so concerned with Odysseus? Why is Zeus so surprised with her plea? In the line ending her speech, the words "dead set against," odusso, puns on the hero's name.

Why does Homer tell the story of Aegisthus? Why does Athena mention Orestes to Telemachus?

Apparently Odysseus's very name means more or has more allusion than what we think. It seems to have more than one implication. We need somehow to figure this out, too.

Why IS Athena (Minerva for those who have that version) so concerned with Odysseus, anyway? We tend to brush off these superfluous (to us) and silly (to us) gods. Should we? Super question and I'm thrilled to see it here, what do you all think?

JoaK, I'm sorry to attribute to you something somebody else said here. You all are so dazzling when I come in here it's like being bombarded with dazzling rays and that commercial where everybody is talking at once. hahaha I can't separate the dazzle from the rays.

For Monday we want to move on to Books II and III, but for now what do you think about Sally's Temple University Questions and the possible meanings of the word Odysseus?

Inquiring minds never HEARD of this and want to know? I knew nothing would escape this group!

mabel1015j · « **Reply #583 on:** February 18, 2011, 11:39:38 AM »

Babi - here are some sites that give a history timeline

http://www.hyperhistory.com/online_n2/History_n2/a.html

http://www.fincher.org/History/WorldBC.shtml

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001209.html

http://ehistory.osu.edu/world/TimeLineDisplay.cfm?Era_id=4

Also, check w/ your library to see if they have any high school or college world history, or western civ text books. They often have a time line in them.

Jude, those two elements from Jewish history and Greece and Rome are what every teacher of western civilization begins their course stating: monotheism, code of laws, the importance of the individual and democratic principles is the basis for western civilization.

Roxania · « **Reply #584 on:** February 18, 2011, 11:44:40 AM »

Hi, everyone! Sorry for being late to the party--I've just been trying to catch up with the posts!

Kidsal asks:
Why does Homer tell the story of Aegisthus? Why does Athena mention Orestes to Telemachus?

I think it's because the whole Agamemnon/Clytemnestra/Aegisthus story makes such a perfect foil for the Odyssey. Clytemnestra is the wife who doesn't hold off her suitors--she chooses Aegisthus out of revenge for Agamemnon's murder of Iphigenia, and as a result Agamemnon is murdered. It looks like this theme of comparing and contrasting what's going on in these two families is going to be recurring. When Athena is telling Telemachus to go out and search for Odysseus, she says, in Lombardo's translation:

Haven't you heard how Orestes won glory
Throughout the world when he killed Aegisthus,
The shrewd traitor who murdered his father?

Sheila Murnaghan, who wrote the intro to the Lombardo translation, points out:
The male heroes of the Odyssey view Clytemnestra's behavior as an expected norm and a reason to mistrust all women, as Agamemnon makes clear when he sees Odysseus in the Underworld and warns him not to fall into the same trap.

I think we can add this to Ginny's list of tensions! It could be an endless list.

As to the meaning of the name "Odysseus," I'm no Greek scholar, so I'm just going with what my intro tells me: that it's related to "odussomai," to suffer pain. Stay tuned--I expect that the pain of Odysseus will turn out to be a motif.

In the line ending her speech, the words "dead set against," odusso, puns on the hero's name.

In Lombardo, it's "Why is Odysseus so odius, Zeus?"

Roxania · « **Reply #585 on:** February 18, 2011, 01:52:23 PM »

Oh, wait, here's another one! In The White Goddess, Robert Graves says:

. . . Odysseus ('angry' according to Homer) was a title of Cronos and referred to his face artificially colored crimson with the dye of the sacred alder. The origin of the story that Odysseus stopped his ears with wax and refused the Sirens' summons is probably that in the late thirteenth century BC a sacred king of Ithaca, Cronos's representative, refused to die at the end of his term of office. This would explain why he killed all the suitors for his wife Penelope's hand, after disguising himself in dirt and rags during the usual temporary abdication.

In The Penelopiad, Margaret Atwood takes the idea that whatever original events inspired the Odyssey took place when the Mediterranean was shifting from worship of the Mother Goddess, with all of the sexual rituals surrounding kingship that went with it, to worship of the patriarchal Olympians and goes even further with it. She equates the twelve murdered maids--analogous to the twelve companions of Odysseus-- with the traditional priestesses of the Mother Goddesses, who had to be killed so that the patriarchy, as embodied by Odysseus, could take over. (Interestingly, Graves asserts that the Vestal Virgins also had their origins as priestesses of the Mother Goddess.)

mabel1015j · « **Reply #586 on:** February 18, 2011, 03:29:14 PM »

I haven't read this book, just came across it in my History Newsletter, but some you who are interested in the evolution of speech might like to look inside it. A History of Communications from Speech to the Internet by Marshall Poe.

http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/134250.html

Do you remember the PBS series on the development of English? That's probably now available as a video or disk set.

Roxania's post reminded me of the book When God Was a Woman. Have any of you read it? That was probably 30 yrs ago for me. I loaned it to a theological student and never got it back! Huuuummmm, should i be pleased it liked it si much he wanted to keep it, or shld i suppose he and his fellow theologians tho't it was blesphemous and destroyed it?!?

ginny · « **Reply #587 on:** February 18, 2011, 05:42:05 PM »

Welcome, Roxania, we're so glad you made it on board!!

Tension #12!! You're absolutely right, and it went right over my head.

I loved this: It looks like this theme of comparing and contrasting what's going on in these two families is going to be recurring.

I have a thing about themes. I always want to talk about themes/ threads/ and now you've mentioned motifs! hahaha

I need to get them all straight.

as Agamemnon makes clear when he sees Odysseus in the Underworld and warns him not to fall into the same trap. I can't wait to see him there. It's quite interesting that Murnaghan views Clytemnestra's behavior as an expected norm in a man's opinion of that age!

Hello? Agamemnon... well we'll see about Mr. Agamemnon.

Loved the bit about Graves and Atwood and the Mother Goddess and Mabel's When God Was a Woman, I haven't read it but I do think I've heard of it. The History of Communication sounds really good!

"odussomai," to suffer pain. Oh my goodness. Have you all seen O Brother Where Art Thou? With George Clooney? It's from the Coen brothers, and it's based on the Odyssey, and the theme song is The Man of Constant Sorrows. Take a look, this preview gives you a good idea of the movie, showing the Soggy Bottom Boys singing I Am a Man of Constant Sorrow. It's even got Sirens. hahahaaa Very very VERY cleverly done. I first heard about it in a class on the Odyssey believe it or not, I thought the professor was crazy, he wasn't. Maybe we could make it our theme song hahahaa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08e9k-c91E8

PS I wonder if you can figure out who the Cyclops is? There are two blind seee-rs, it's hard to tell with the second one in this clip, but he's the man with the hand cart on the railroad tracks. Really cleverly done.

PPS: Barbara, that KIA commercial with Poseidon is priceless!! I love the end: "An Epic Ride." hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Dana · « **Reply #588 on:** February 18, 2011, 07:56:55 PM »

I can't relate to that Man of constant sorrows Cohn brothers stuff . I guess I'm just not an American.

roshanarose · « **Reply #589 on:** February 18, 2011, 11:03:10 PM »

Mabel - Those history/timelines are great. Thank you.

Mippy · « **Reply #590 on:** February 19, 2011, 07:21:33 AM »

Mabel ~ Ditto! The timelines are great! Finally found a chance to look at them again!

Dana ~ The Coen brothers films are, IMHO, a mixed lot and an acquired taste. Despite the thumbs-up from our Ginny I didn't like that one, and my hubby hated it so much he wanted to walk out before the end.
You bring so much to this discussion, Dana, with your background, please forget the Hollywood stuff and bring more of your knowledge of Greek and Latin to this varied table, amica mea.

ginny · « **Reply #591 on:** February 19, 2011, 07:43:56 AM »

Dana, it's probably an acquired taste, I myself was a bit stuffy about it till I actually saw it. (And I huffed, and tut tutted half way thru it, it does have one questionable scene I think they could have left out). It's a joke. It's amazing how many ways the Odyssey lives in 2011. Imagine what the events of the original would look like in a teaser, it would make the Transformers look pale by comparison. hhahaa The score is brilliant, woven in with the modern movie. I didn't even realize what I was hearing.

We seem to have made the leap into the unknown beautifully. As we're here on the cusp (Monday) of Books II and III, are there any elements you all wonder about in Book I you'd like to discuss, or do you have questions you'd like to add, at this point?

How do you feel about the background so far? Have you made the transition into being comfortable with what we're reading or are you struggling with the references, the way the book is written, and the names? Aegisthus threw me for a momentary loop and now when I see it I think of Roxania's recurring contrast of homecomings and it makes sense.

I think that's a great idea, Frybabe, if your translation you find simply is not making sense or speaking to you, to get one which does. I like Pope, I like his words, but as somebody said here, he seems more Pope than Homer, and when you find your mind wandering as you read so that you need to read the same sentence over and over without really understanding what it says, it's time to check out somebody else's version.

My Greek version (the Loeb of course) has Dr. Murray saying "The flashing-eyed Athene," and we need a map. Penelope and Home are in Ithaca, and as the book opens, Odysseus is with Calypso, a prisoner. Now where, exactly, is she? I need to get the maps up today in the heading. I am so geogaphy76 challenged with a map in 2011, I am ashamed last night as the horrific events unfolded in Bahrain to having to look it up on the map. So let's get up a map so we can see Ithaca and possibly where HE is now. I'll put up the one Mippy found useful first.

Dr. Murray in his translation put in a note here for the "flawless Aegisthus," (1.30) saying "Used to the formulaic style as we are not, Homer's audience was more able than we to separate the generic description from the particular event."

OH and here's a footnote (I'm going to try to [put in all his footnotes since a footnote from Dr. Murray is like talking to...well...)

On Roxania's wonderful take on Odysseus's name and Sally's Temple U questions, Dr. Murray says:
(I'll copy it in here so those of you who can read the Greek can see the actual word): see how yellow it is!

As a personal aside, this old book means a lot to me, not only for the notes of Dr. Murray but those of Dr. Klein. Have any of you been in our Books & Lit sections long enough to remember LJ Klein? He was a retired physician who had opened clinics for the poor in Kentucky I think it was and led some of our book discussions before his untimely death. He read Latin and Greek and had mentioned to me how much he would enjoy reading Homer again, in passing, so as a surprise I sent him my copies of Dr. Murray, I wasn't using them, to keep but he wanted to be sure I had them back when he became seriously ill and they've got HIS notes in them too.

So when I pick this book up several voices of the past speak to me: our past here in the Books & Lit since 1996, Dr. Murray (1866-1940), and his Odyssey translation made in 1919, LJ's voice, and your voices here in 2011, casting light on these older things. Personally that makes this particular Odyssey of mine especially relevant, to me.

I must say the description of the golden bowls for washing hands before dinner and the sumptuous feast set before Athena in her disguise, the pitcher of gold with the water to wash and the silver basin for the water (is this the first finger bowl?), bread and "dainties," platters of all sorts of meat placed before them by the carver, golden goblets for the wine, and then after dinner entertainment, all sounds pretty sumptuous. For any age, actually. No veggies? hahahaa

Let me go find those maps!

ginny · « **Reply #592 on:** February 19, 2011, 07:54:56 AM »

Oh and here's Mippy posting at the same time with the same "acquired taste," hahaha

O Brother Where Art Thou is just a joke. hahaha A satire. Sort of a Monty Python type thing, a riff.

Husbands and movies: I tried to show my husband Monty Python's Holy Grail which I think I have memorized, and he lasted exactly to the point where the coconuts were shown as the horse hooves sound before he got up and said it was the "stupidest thing he ever saw," and left. If you've seen that one you know how many seconds into the movie it was. I actually could act it out, parts of it.hahahaa De gustibus.

NOT a requirement for enjoying the Odyssey! I'm beginning to wish I hadn't put it here, but in the interest of...knowing what other people talk about... on this topic... there it is, for better or worse.

At any rate here is your map 442, Mippy and the other two, now where are we actually putting Calypso and Odysseus?

I'm leaving off the nice last one as it seems to diverge more toward My Nice Trip in the footsteps of Odysseus and less from what's accepted as where he went.

ginny · « **Reply #593 on:** February 19, 2011, 08:00:32 AM »

Wait, does the Ohio Wesleyan have Calypso on Malta? Then the bottom one here is not so far off:

Ohio Wesleyan:

Somebody's Odysseus recreation travels:

OK so we have him leaving Troy, now in ...Malta with Calypso and going to Ithaca, right?

Babi · « **Reply #594 on:** February 19, 2011, 10:10:05 AM »

JEAN, thank you so much for taking the trouble to find those history timelines. The fourth
link was just the sort of thing I wanted. I've happily added it to my favorites for handy
reference.

Quote

so why aren't they helping HIS family? Has she not called them?

GINNY, maybe they did. It's been twenty years, so it's unlikely that kind of help would have
continued so long. Penelope is now what we might consider 'squared away' in her situation,
and most would probably consider her satisfactorily settled.
I did see "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou", and consider it a classic. The music was haunting
and some of the scenes magical. At the same time, it had characters who were all too human.
People have such different tastes. My son found 'Monty Python and The Holy Grail' hilarious.
He saw the film so many times he knew all the dialog and could recite whole sections of it,
in character. He has a quirky sense of humor.

Odysseus was almost home at Pylos. I'm curious to know what sent him off in the opposite
direction. The meddling of the gods, no doubt.

Dana · « **Reply #595 on:** February 19, 2011, 12:41:00 PM »

Now I do love Monty Python. Everyone used to watch the flying circus every week when I was a junior houseman back in the UK many moons ago. The common room was crowded out! I guess it was a cult thing at the time.

Re Penelope--I expect the norm would have been for her to remarry (like Klytaemnestra) so she had to connive hard and long not to, which she is still doing at the beginning. I don't think she is "squared away", she has to work at keeping the status quo. She seems to have expected Odysseus to return and never lost that faith. One does hear about people like that. Maybe we will find out more about why.

rosemarykaye · « **Reply #596 on:** February 19, 2011, 01:57:51 PM »

Coincidentally, Anna and I have just been discussing the Madeleine McCann case, and whether her parents can really still believe that they will find her. That has been 3 years, I think, but it's a long time for a 4 year old. People go on believing because what else can they do? But in Penelope's case it's maybe a bit different - it's not her child, and so many other men would have died in battle, etc, that it seems surprising that she still holds out any hope.

JoanK · « **Reply #597 on:** February 19, 2011, 02:55:47 PM »

I have to admit, I'm with Klytaemnestra. If my husband had sacrificed my daughter to the gods, I'd have killed him too!

ROXANIA: WELCOME, WELCOME! You're not late, you've come in just at the perfect time. We are just setting off, and haven't been blown off course yet, although I expect we will be.

Correction: I said Diana was a Roman name for Athena. Not true, PatH reminds me. Diana is the Roman name for another goddess.

On Athena's gray eyes: sometimes they are called "owl-gray". Sometimes bright or flashing. Of course, some owls are gray, but their eyes aren't. Owl's eyes ARE bright and flashing. I wonder, could the origilal have refered to "owl-like" and there be some confusion as to whether that refered to their plumage (gray) or their eyes (bright, flashing etc.)? Just a thought, from a birder.

JudeS · « **Reply #598 on:** February 19, 2011, 03:03:05 PM »

Have we forgotten someone?
If you went and questioned old Lord Laertes
He I gather, no longer ventures into town
but lives a life of hardship, all to himself,
off on his farmstead with an aged serving woman
who tends him well, who gives him food and drink
when weariness has takrn hold of his withered limbs
from hauling himself along his vineyard's steep slope .

Laertes son is missing in action. There is no word of when , where, how or if he has died. His wife is dead. His only Grandson is thinking of going to find his father (or his father's body).
Homer presents us with pain and tragedy along with the world of old age in Laertes. He is an important symbol. A father mourning a lost son. So many wars. So many dead sons So many fathers alone with their grief.

JoanK · « **Reply #599 on:** February 19, 2011, 03:03:33 PM »

I confess I couldn't answer any of the temple University questions. Hmmm, contrasting Ag's family and O's. Brilliant.

I'm not surprised that Clytemnestra was held to be more typical than Penelope. Cultures that hold women in low esteem, always seem to have an undercurrent of "the evil woman".

Perhaps Athena's interest in O goes back to the Iliad. I don't remember the Iliad well enough. Was she on the greek side there?

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