Classics Book Club, The

[Roxania]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

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February 22- Books II and III: Telemachus goes on his own quest

Attic black figure kylix, 530BC
Attributed to Exekias
Antikensammlungen, Munich

In this scene from the Trojan War,  set between 'eyes', warriors fight over the body of Patroclus,
stripped of his armour. One attempts to drag the body away.

The Murder of Agamemnon
Pierre Narcisse Guerin (1774 - 1833)
Louvre, Paris

  

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  

Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
http://www.seniorlearn.org/latin/ulysses_penelope/Odysseusmap.jpg
http://www.wesleyan.edu/~mkatz/Images/Voyages.jpg
http://www.seniorlearn.org/latin/ulysses_penelope/Odysseusmap2.jpg

Clytemnestra and the body of Agamemnon
Attic red figure kylix
attr. to the Byrgos Painter
c. 490 BC
Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

Telemachos, accompanied by Athene disguised as Mentor, searches for his father
Engraving and etching on paper
John Flaxman
1805
Tate Gallery

   

I keep holding forth here--one more, and I'll shut up!

Ginny mentioned how Antinous greeted Telemachus "with a laugh."  I remember in Fagles it was something like "he caressed his name," and that's exactly how McKellen reads it. "Te-LE-ma-chus!"  It's as though he's coaxing a child to come and sit by the fire and eat with them like he used to, and forget all about this traveling nonsense, and be a good boy.

Here's a link to the McKellen version in Audible, in case anyone else does MP3 downloads:

http://www.audible.com/pd/ref=sr_1_1?asin=B002UZMUZG&qid=1298331688&sr=1-1

[JoanK]

Roxania: thanks for gathering together the statements about sending her back to her mother. Taken together, they don't quite make sense. Could this be  a place where different versions of the story were woven together.

Yes, Telemachus is always saying how broke he is. But in the scene where the nurse gathers the wine and grain for his journey, she is in a storeroom piled with gold. Perhaps T wasn't allowed to touch that. Or perhaps he is a miser.

JUDE: flicr wants a password to get into the photos. Would this be my e-mail password?

[PatH]

When did the suitors invade the house?  In the meeting in Book two, Antinous, one of the suitors, tells Telemachos not to blame them:

.....It's not the suitors
Who are at fault, but your own mother,
Who knows more tricks than any woman alive.
It's been three years now, almost four,
Since she's been toying with our affections.  (Lombardo)

I wonder about the timing.  Odysseus has been away for 16 years or so, and all of a sudden the suitors all descend, like vultures gathering around a dying animal.  Why now?

I agree with Mippy, that so far we only have behavioral clues to Penelope's feelings about Odysseus--the weaving and unweaving, etc.  Antinous continues his speech:

She encourages each man....
...But her mind is set elsewhere.                                                                                                                                                                       

[JudeS]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28390194@N03/5465310583/
Hope this is now available for all to see.
Genealogy of the Royal House of Odysseus

[JoanK]

Got it! Thanks.

[PatH]

When I look at the geneaolgies of the characters in the Odyssey, I wonder, what fraction of them were NOT descended from Zeus.  Not many, I'm guessing.

[roshanarose]

As I am a member of Flickr, I had no troubles accessing that link.  Perhaps you need to join.  This is no hardship and there are fantastic pix of just about everything.  Sticking to the topic - there are many marvellous pix of Greece and all things Greek as well.  Thanks Jude - Good find.

[Dana]

Antinous means against the thought or mind...so he's always the oppositional one....

Penelope must be playing a game to keep all options open for hubby...otherwise she'd have chosen someone out of the suitors, but she thinks he's alive and is keeping the kingdom open for him with this cat and mouse game...I'll marry someone whe I've woven the shroud....she chose right, Klytemnestra must have thought Agamemnon wasn't coming back....and who can blame her (from a woman's perspective)...but she was wrong and got her comeuppance....

[BarbStAubrey]

OK I am getting a wily Penelope - the question someone threw in our pot was,  why now the suitors -

Her only value in life is as a pawn - her feelings as I can read the various Marriage rituals and life for Women has as much to do with playing a game that is supporting her virtue and if there are boy children raising them as winners, god like in statue and courage.

The wealth seems to  play into the arranged marriages - if Penelope were to go back to her father - even though that option is off the table - if she had her dowry would go with her - she is a favored daughter and would probably do well with the marriage he would arrange  - if she were to go back to her father there would be less wealth than the combined wealth accumulated by Odysseus with her dowry. And so a suitor would want the whole pie.

Her value is not only showing evidence she is loyal and virtuous only to Odysseus but is raising his son to be worthy of his father's name and the inheritor of his father's wealth that includes her dowry. She must be aware that an out and out fight with the suitors would show her weakness. Her skill to hold them off is to hold them off till Telemachus is capable of fighting them away.

Any of the suitors wants to control Odysseus wealth and pass it down within his family which means he must have a child with Penelope and probably get rid of Telemachus.

Let's say Penelope was only 14 when she married Odysseus - there are the 3 years they had before the Trojan war and now this is the 16th year since he is gone - and so she is 33  years old - how much longer can she still bare a child? That is what I think the suitors are thinking - because without a child with Penelope they cannot trust that she would support them after marriage.  They are assuming that a 'good' mother is loyal to her own child and that is the only way the suitors can assure themselves that Odysseus' wealth will be passed into their family by having a child with Penelope that splits her loyalty from Telemachus to their child.

I also see Penelope has goaded her son Telemachus into manhood - from everything I read she had no business in the men's quarters - here she set up her loom in the hall where the banquets and symposiums are held -  and for sure to make a comment on the music which is in the domain of the symposium that includes a naked women playing the double-aulos while they drink lots of wine - She is setting it up to push Telemachus to show who is the man - she 'played' the men as long as she could to give Telemachus time to grow up - to keep him from thinking he is dependent upon her wily games with the suitors she given him the impression she cannot make up her mind. In that way he will be annoyed with her which gives him backbone since for so long he was dependent upon her as all children are for sustenance.

Fagles has her say, "She took to heart the clear good sense in what her son had said." then she "falls weeping while watchful Athena sealed her eyes with welcome sleep - while the suitors broke into uproar through the shadowed halls, all of them lifting prayers to lie beside her, share her bed."

Reading about marriage, the only reason the guys go to bed with a wife is to produce a child - most articles go on to explain the use of Call Girls and the young boys back in their bed chamber - And so, I am thinking that Penelope put on a great act of enlisting their desire for what she represents so that Telemachus could slip in and take command.

Just in time does Athena show up - but then if the gods are really the thoughts and conscience within each of us - or some outside force that is like luck - rather than talking acting gods - or  maybe another dimension does exist and they  control our luck - whatever it seems to me that Penelope started the ball rolling so that her son would do what must be done and as the old saying;

The moment you definitely commit yourself, then Providence also moves. All sorts of things occur to help that would never otherwise have occurred. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in our favor all  manner of unforeseen incidents and meetings and material assistance, which no one could have dreamed would come our way. Our dreams will be fulfilled only through action. Success will  happen when we tell ourself there is no limit, that today we will surpass anything we did yesterday.

 Well Athena sure was the Providence and Telemachus received all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings, and material assistance. I would also suggest he received the support of men he had no idea were there waiting to support him as Halitherses read the meaning of the flying eagles.

[BarbStAubrey]

Interesting the symbolism of Music is of nature  in her transitory and ever-changing aspect - and so the scene where Penelope complains of the music is a tell tale sign in the story that change is about to occur.

And the Eagles - wow - that is a biggie symbolically - They symbolize the sky gods, the spiritual principle, ascension, inspiration, release from bondage, victory pride, contemplation, apotheosis, royalty, authority, strength , height, the element of air - In Greek culture they are an attribute of Zeus and the  lightening -bearer sometimes with a thunderbolt in their talons. An emblem of Ganymede depicted as watering an eagle in the overcoming of death. a symbol of victory according to Homer.

Athena closing her eyes - the Eye is the all-seeing divinity, the faculty of intuitive vision, The eye is s symbol of all sun gods and their life-giving power of fertilization by the sun; their power is incarnated in the god-king.

The single eye is symbolic of evil as with the Cyclops or the single eye of enlightenment, the eye of God and of eternity. the Greeks  suggest the eye symbolizes Apollo as 'viewer of the heaven's', the sun, which is also the eye of Zeus.

[kidsal]

Question?  Why does Telemachus blame the elder Achaean assembly for having allowed the suitors to live in his home?   These men appaently had no power and hadn't met since before Odysseus left home. 

I am mixed up as to who killed who in story of Aegisthus. 
1.  Aegisthus married wife of son (who) of Atreus.
2.  When son of Atreus comes home, Aegisthus kills him.
3.  Orestes, son of Atreus takes vengence when comes of age.
4.  Sons of Atreus -- Menelaus and Agamemnon

[Babi]

 Leocritus is an arrogant fellow, isn't he. He rather plainly
says that if Odysseus did return, he'd simply be murdered.
Penelope, instead of rejoicing, would have the grief of seeing
his 'ugly' death.
  I must confess I've wondered how Odysseus could handle this
many rivals if they chose not to budge.

 I thought there was just one meeting, JOANK. Telemachus told his
servant to announce the meeting and summon everyone, but it was
for the next day, as far as I can see.

 ROXANIA, thanks for that note about Antinous treatment of
Telemachus and the way the name was spoken by McKellen. That adds
so much to the entire scene. Makes it more realistic.
 
 I may be off base here, but I have the impression that these
early Greeks counted much of their wealth in herds and flocks.
With the suitors ravaging through these to feed themselves, I
can understand Telemachus claim that they are impoverishing him.

[PatH]

Question?  Why does Telemachus blame the elder Achaean assembly for having allowed the suitors to live in his home?   These men appaently had no power and hadn't met since before Odysseus left home.  

The fathers of the suitors are members of the assembly:

"Suitors have latched on to my mother,
against her will, and they are the sons
of the noblest men here."

The suitors are violating the rules of hospitality, which were very important, and their fathers should have controlled them.

[pedln]

Question?  Why does Telemachus blame the elder Achaean assembly for having allowed the suitors to live in his home?   These men appaently had no power and hadn't met since before Odysseus left home

I didn't realize they didn't have power, not the way someone like Antonius speaks to Telemachus  .    .   .   from Butler

"Telemachus,insolent braggart that you are,
How dare  you try to throw the blame upon us suitors?
It is your mother's fault, not ours,
For she is a very artful woman."

[BarbStAubrey]

hmmm I thought that Aegyptius and Halitherses were elders where as I thought Antinous is one of the suitors  ??

[BarbStAubrey]

I think Eurymachus response to Halitherses is what gives the impression the elders have no power.

"Stop, old man!"
Eurymachus, Polybus' son, rose up to take him on.
"Go home and babble your omens to your children -
save them from some catastrophe coming soon.
I 'm a better hand than you at reading portents.
Flocks of birds go fluttering under the sun's rays,
not all are fraught with meaning...."

Eurymachus is responding to

"Until the old warrior Halitherses,
Mastor's son, broke the silence for them -
the one who outperformed all men of his time
at reading bird-signs, sounding out the omens,
rose and spoke, distraught for each man there:"

Where it was Antinous that Telemachus responds to about how he, Telemachuis "can not drive his mother from our house against her will, the one who bore me, reared me too"

[JoanK]

KIDSAL: "I am mixed up as to who killed who in story of Aegisthus."

While Agamemnon, one of the leaders of the Greeks, was away, Aegisthus married Agamemnon's wife, Clytemnestra. When Agamemnon returned, Aegisthus killed him, with Clytemnestra's help. Agamemnon's son, Orestes, in turn killed Aegisthus, in order to revenge his father. I  don't remember the relationship of Menelaus to Agamemnon: were they brothers?

Everyone is blaming Clytemnestra for being unfaithful. but they don't tell you the background. Earliier, when Agamemnon first set off for the Trojan war, his ship was becalmed. An oracle told him that the only way he could get the winds to sail for troy was to sacrifice his daughter to the gods. Ag knew that Clytemnestra would never agree to that, so her sent her a message that he had arranged a marriage for their daughter, and to send her to him. She arrived, in her bridal clothes, expecting to be married, and instead is burned at the stake, a sacrifice to the gods. When Clytemnestra found out, she was furious: she probably spurred Aegisthus on to kill Ag. As I said earlier, I don't blame her: I would have done the same thing.

[JoanK]

This story goes on and on: Orestes has a sister, Electra, who is mad at Orestes for killing there mother, and the revenge cycle goes on. This is what happens when justice is brought about by revenge: A kills B, then B's relatives kill A, then A's relatives kill one of B's relatives, and on and on -- the Hatfields and the McCoys. It can last for hundreds of years. One historian (I forget who) points out that many societies start that way, but realize how destructive it is, and institute first a system of "blood money", later trial and punishment by the state. But we still see it going on in many parts of the world.

[JoanK]

" I  don't remember the relationship of Menelaus to Agamemnon: were they brothers?"

When I wrote that, I forgot that Jude had given us a family tree. They weren't brothers, but were connected somehow.

[JudeS]

BarbSt.A,
Your posts were so interesting that dozens of thoughts and questions went through my mind.
First -thanks for noting the fact that playing music signifies that change is about to occur.Just as in a modern movie script to exite us and up the tension.(Do you write movie scripts for a living?)
Second- the idea of combining the symbols of the eagle and the lightning bolt. I researched this and founfd it is the symbol of the 100th missile defense divisions of our armed forces.
Third Zeuses part in this story.  The articles I read delineate Zeuses personality and power to two different times. The first  before the Homeric Epics-When Zeus was a god of a portion of nature. After the Homeric epics the primitive character is erased and he appears as a political and national divinity, king and father of men and the founder and protector of all institutions hallowed by law and custom.
Some other facts that are attributed to the Homeric Zeus:He is the source of all prophetic power, he assigns good or evil to mankind, can produce storms and tempests at will, during the Trojan war favored the trojans until Agamemnon made good the wrong he had done to Achiles.
I could go on and on but best to stop before I bore you. (Music out).

[rosemarykaye]

Hello!

i got completely behind last week - partly because had no book, and partly because had no time. So on Saturday I decided I would read right through all the posts from page 1 to get up to speed - and I've just finished tonight, 4 days later!   So many thoughts and suggestions have emerged - who would have thought we (or I should say, you) could get so much out of the first few pages?

I'm sure when I did this book at school we were never asked what we thought - we were just told.  That was not entirely the teacher's fault, as we had to be drilled in what the examiners would be looking for, and I suppose that when they are marking hundreds of scripts, they don't have time to consider different ideas - they just have a list of points that each attract so many marks.  Depressing really - it's so much more interesting to do it this way, with everyone contributing their different ideas and impressions.

I loved the homely touches with the nurse making Telemachus's bed for him.  I am however still confused as to why all these suitors have been allowed to hang around.  I am quite sure they are after power/land/money rather than Penelope's body, though I expect they wouldn't mind if that came thrown in - after all, as has already been said, wives were only for producing heirs, whilst slaves, call girls, etc were for everything else.

I thought there were two meetings too.  Is the first one of the elders and the second one with the suitors?

Is everything coming to a head now because Telemachus has finally come of age?

Sorry if these are dim questions - still trailing behind, but doing my best!

Rosemary

[Roxania]

Thanks to Jude, for the genealogy, which I was finally able to see, and also to BarbStA for the thoughtful analysis.  I especially liked this bit:

but then if the gods are really the thoughts and conscience within each of us

In the book I mentioned before, "The Goddesses in Everywoman," the author treats the goddesses as patterns of human behavior, and patterns of how we see ourselves and relate to the world.  I'm not saying that Homer was a Jungian therapist or anything, but I've often wondered whether the gods concocted by early societies weren't some kind of externalization of human impulses.  Sure, they can create the earth, and they're lousy with superhuman powers, but at bottom they act like people--and not always like sane or admirable people, either!

[Dana]

Roxiana,
why should the gods"concocted by early societies" be any different from the gods concocted by us today??

[roshanarose]

Joan K - Agamemnon and Menelaus were brothers.  Agamemnon was married to Kytemnestra; Menelaus was married to Helen. Klytemnestra and Helen were half-sisters. Agamemnon ruled in Myceneae; Menelaus ruled in Lakedomonia (Sparta).  Menelaus and Helen had one daughter, Hermione.

[PatH]

Goodness, Rosemarykaye, your head must be rally spinning after reading all that so fast; I'm not sure I could do it.  Yes, sometimes we really manage to squeeze the last drop of juice out of a book in these discussions.  I think the pace will speed up in a few chapters though, as it turns into more of an action story.

Is everything coming to a head now because Telemachus has finally come of age?

I think you're right.  Up to now he has been to young even to try to figure out how to get rid of the suitors.  Now he is realizing he really has to do something.  At the same time, Athena, freed by the absence of Poseidon and the coming end of the prophesied 10 years of exile for Odysseus, comes to help him find a way.

[BarbStAubrey]

What happened to  Helen's daughter after her mom was kidnapped by Paris?

[roshanarose]

Hermione (hərmī'ənē), in Greek mythology, the only daughter of Helen and Menelaus. When Helen eloped with Paris, Hermione was abandoned to the care of Clytemnestra. She later married Neoptolemus, the son of Achilles. In Euripides' Andromache, she is carried off by Orestes who marries her after he has contrived the murder of Neoptolemus at Delphi.


Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/hermione#ixzz1Ek9OVfXN

[PatH]

Helen and Clytemnestra are of interest to twins.  Their mother was Leda, wife of Tyndareus.  On the same night, Leda was seduced by Zeus (who appeared as a swan), and slept with her husband.  This produced four children: Castor and Clytemnestra, children of Tyndareus, and Pollux and Helen, children of Zeus.  Castor and Pollux were also identical twins (OK, the ancient Greeks didn't know about genetics).  They don't appear in this story, but if it was less cloudy and I wasn't so close to a lot of light pollution, I could walk out my door right now and see them overhead as Gemini.

[Dana]

When you think about it, the gods concocted by the ancient Greeks were a lot less lethal that the ones that hold sway today.  I don't think the ancient Greeks went to war over their gods or believed they had the only true answer and all that.

I think its interesting that nothing seems to be done by them that couldn't be done by the humans themselves, at least in the Iliad and Odyssey so far.

[kidsal]

Thanks for replying to my question about Aegisthus.  In my prose translation it keeps calling Agamemnon "he." 
My translation states that the meeting of the elders was the first that had been called since Odysseus had left home.  When he hadn't come back after a few years you would have thought they would have called a meeting and asked what they should do?

[Babi]

 

"The son is rare who measures with his father, and one in a thousand is a better man."

 
What do you think of these words of Athena (as Mentor)?  If it held
true, the generations would decline with only a rare son being the equal
of his father.  There have surely been just as many occasions with a
rather ordinary man may have a remarkable son.
  The line sounds good, but I don't think it holds up.

[Roxania]

Dana--I don't think they are any different, really, in terms of the arbitrariness of their behavior.  (And thanks for your note about the meaning of Antinous's name--interesting.)

I recently read a comparative religion book called "God is Not One," by Somebody-or-other Prothero.  He makes the point that each god requires something different from his followers--the Hebrew god demands the keeping of his covenant, Allah demands submission to his will, and the Christian god demands belief--although keeping covenants and submission certainly imply belief, but belief isn't enough in and of itself for Judaism or Islam.  Confucianism and Buddhism, though they don't have "gods" in the same sense that the three big monotheisms do, demand that we get along with everybody and behave appropriately on earth, or seek enlightenment, respectively.  

I really don't know what the Olympians expected of their followers--other than to follow the rules of impeccable hospitality in case one of them turned up for dinner, apparently!  The Greeks had their household gods, and each city-state seemed to have a patron, but beyond that, people seem to have been able to pick and choose.  There was no demand that anybody worship one god exclusively, which must have made for more mellow religious discussions than people tend to have now.  Certainly the gods did not seem to expect that humanity would turn to them for any meaningful answers, which is a good thing, since they were often the ones causing the confusion in the first place.

And Babi--I had exactly the same thought.  Statistically, it's a recipe for disaster!

 

[BarbStAubrey]

Roxanina I was so surprised to receive for Christmas "God is Not One," - I left my Amazon page with the list of books I wanted open while I was fixing dinner while visiting for the holidays and my daughter came along - chose from my list and had it for under the tree Christmas morning - I did start to read and got waylaid by other books - but last year I must have read 20 or more books about all the goings on during the first 800 years of the Christian religions - whew - hard to tell if it is a political system or spiritual system...

I just get a kick out of how in order to claim a superior position in leadership you  align yourself with a god - wasn't that part of the Nazi's  claim to fame for Germany in the 1930s - looks like we are still at it... Thinking about all the unexplained horror and pain in the world that folks react to either by embracing or rejecting religion the explanation that it is because of the gods sounds as good as any explanation I have heard.

I've only read around the edges how romantic love became part of our thinking and the reason for marriage starting in the middle ages - I am thinking to better understand the dynamics among folks in these ancient tales it would be a good thing to know more about. And I also think having a better understanding of Honor killing among tribal societies today would be another understanding that would do us well reading these ancient epics. So much to learn and so little time - .

[Roxania]

having a better understanding of Honor killing among tribal societies today would be another understanding that would do us well reading these ancient epics.

It really shows how elemental that world was, with no legal or social infrastructure to think of--just whatever people can come up with, or get away with, themselves.  No wonder they were so fascinated with heroes.

[BarbStAubrey]

Roxania I think Honor killing is the legal way used to handle issues in a Tribal society - not only does Middle Eastern societies use this system of law but it is the basics of law for many others that are living side by side with common law since the Magna Carta.- there are many systems of law and we measure everything based on the a constitutional law utilizing a system of police/sheriff etc. - remember there is private law - the law of monarchy - religious law - on and on it goes...gotta go - late for an appointment...

[JoanK]

Barb: "I've only read around the edges how romantic love became part of our thinking and the reason for marriage starting in the middle ages."

God point. We react to these stories in terms of our ideas of romantic love, which don't necessarily fit.

Roxania: "It really shows how elemental that world was, with no legal or social infrastructure to think of--just whatever people can come up with, or get away with"

Yes: peoples all nover the world have come up with honor killing, and also (sometimes) have seen its fatal flaw -- that it goes on forever. Unfortunately, some still haven't realized that (the Middle East for example).

BARB: "in order to claim a superior position in leadership you  align yourself with a god"

That is why the separation of Church and State in our constitution is so important. When the civic leader can claim to speak for a god, it becomes absolute power, and individual liberties are lost.

[JoanK]

ROXANIA: fascinating point: " each god requires something different from his followers"

The greek gods seem to have demanded sacrifices. This hasn't come up here yet, but in the Iliad, gods were always getting mad because someone forgot to sacrifice to them, or the sacrifce wasn't large enough. In Book 3, we see them sacrificing to Neptune (How do they know which god needs a sacrifice?)

DANA: "I think its interesting that nothing seems to be done by them that couldn't be done by the humans themselves,"

Their imagination was limited to what they knew. But the gods did have better means of transportation (eg Athena's sandals -- as a kid I always wanted sandals like that!)

ROSE, PatH: I had no idea twinship was so complicated in Greek times. Pat, do you suppose one of us is really the child of a god?

[JoanK]

BARB: "The moment you definitely commit yourself, then Providence also moves."

A very interesting idea. Do you remember who the quote came from? Is this the Greek idea of fate, do you think?

[ALF43]

Am I just a softie for a young man who is trying to go from being a youthful lad into a great leader, guided by the gods?
Dana said:

Telemachus is a youth who needs to grow up.  A case of retarded development!

I don't see Telemachus as a problem child.  He is in the throes of his youth, exuberant, awkward and green but he can now be guided by Athena into the spring of his life.  He will blossom and surprise all of us.     (she hopes)
The lovely Polycaste, Nestor's youngest daughter hopes so as well.  With each chapter I feel him gaining strength, confidence and instinct.

[PatH]

Joan, Nestor's huge sacrifice to Neptune/Poseidon in Book Three has its bit of comedy.  Telemachus and Athena (looking like Mentor) arrive just as things are starting.  Nestor's son welcomes them and, as is proper, allows the older stranger to make the first libation and offer the first prayer.

You recall that Athena and Poseidon were bitter enemies; it must have stuck in her craw to pray to him, but she did so with a straight face, asking for renown for Nestor and his sons and a safe return for Telemachus.  But she takes care to grant the prayer herself.