Author Topic: Classics Book Club, The  (Read 480335 times)

PatH

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #720 on: February 26, 2011, 06:37:14 PM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.



Now reading:


February 22- Books II and III: Telemachus goes on his own quest


Attic black figure kylix, 530BC
Attributed to Exekias
Antikensammlungen, Munich

In this scene from the Trojan War,  set between 'eyes', warriors fight over the body of Patroclus,
stripped of his armour. One attempts to drag the body away.


The Murder of Agamemnon
Pierre Narcisse Guerin (1774 - 1833)
Louvre, Paris

  
Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  



Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
http://www.seniorlearn.org/latin/ulysses_penelope/Odysseusmap.jpg
http://www.wesleyan.edu/~mkatz/Images/Voyages.jpg
http://www.seniorlearn.org/latin/ulysses_penelope/Odysseusmap2.jpg


Clytemnestra and the body of Agamemnon
Attic red figure kylix
attr. to the Byrgos Painter
c. 490 BC
Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York


Telemachos, accompanied by Athene disguised as Mentor, searches for his father
Engraving and etching on paper
John Flaxman
1805
Tate Gallery

   

PatH

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #721 on: February 26, 2011, 06:38:21 PM »
Oh, good, another reason to like Colin Firth.  I had the same inconclusive search everyone else had for Gerenian.

Reading the Iliad with Ginny was good preparation for this; I've already met a lot of the characters.  I'm particularly glad to meet Nestor again, as he was one of my favorites.  He is already old in Iliad, and very wise.  He mostly gives good advice to people and makes stirring speeches to the soldiers that inspire them to fight furiously.

Although he has already seen 3 generations (I'm guessing that that's about 50, given marriage ages) and is regarded as physically weak, he is still valiant and does fight well in battle once or twice.  But my favorite bit is Agamemnon's remark to him:

"Nestor, old sir! If only your knees
Were as strong as your spirit...."


I adopted that as my motto.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #722 on: February 26, 2011, 06:44:30 PM »
Wow - my hats off to all of you for taking on the Gerenian adjective - whew - and it sounds like you solved it Jude. Bravo - I was thinking a note to one of these translators was going to be the only solution.

As to Penelope and her choice.

I think that is the tension of this entire story - it is why the journalist with the NYTimes had an article that renamed 100 of the top books and for the Odyssey the rename was something like 'Don't Mess with the Wife of a Veteran'

Without her having a choice the tension is gone - it is an easy exchange of household leaders - not only is wealth at stake but for Penelope there is her son as the rightful heir to his father's wealth as well as, her role as the good women as compared to the gods who toss their kids around as if human services would save them.

Why would Telemachus seek his father except if as a teen, he did not like his mother's choice for his step-dad and then we have a very different story - but Telemachus says that he could not walk out on his mother in her efforts to hold off the suitors.

As to him being rough with her - that to me is typical of any child when they are becoming an adult - they usually pick the safest one - the parent they know will love them no matter how much they hurt them - in Telemachus' case he didn't have much choice - he couldn't very well sass back his father and he was not yet angry with his father - he wanted to know what happened - he had not yet felt abandoned - his mother's example of not making a choice helps him to not feel abandoned.

I remember my own children and I was so worried about my youngest who was not snapping back or trying to argue with me - I just knew that is part of taking the bold step to grow up in that it is very hard to have an opinion different than you parents and yet, to be their own person they must - kids usually try to  please the one they are dependent upon and to take the bold step of having your own opinion much less a plan of action - Holy Hannah that is revolution time - and funny - my youngest didn't rebel, announcing his own opinion till politics rolled around when he was in his 30s - I think he knew that up until then I needed support - which is what Telemachus offered Penelope, so  he was taking a risk to get them out of the mess they were in. He did have the family's faithful servant his nurse.

As to the leather on the door and Fagles says, also a silver bar or catch of some sort - I think both are said for their symbolic meaning - from   my trusty J.C.Cooper book, An Illustrated...

Leather - to wear leather is to take on the power or mana of the animal  and puts the wearer in touch with the animals and their instinctual knowledge - worn in initiation ceremonies,  assurance of immortality.

Silver - is symbolic of the moon, virginity, the feminine aspect with the virginal state of prima materia, which is the primitive formless base of all matter, given particular manifestation through the influence.

That to me says the nurse is acting almost like a Shaman or a priest blessing Telemachus after he told her of his daring and adult plan - a story is about showing, not telling - so the story shows her closing the door with a leather hinge or strap or whatever it was - just a bit of extra color to the story? I doubt it - any author gets rid of what is extra - and so I am content believing it is a blessing and then clasping the door with silver so that the strength of the animal is one of the influences she hopes to confer on Telemachus during his last night in the house as a child.  

When we look at the arc of this entire Epic it hinges on Penelope having a choice and in spite of Odysseus' choices or dilly dallying from the gods returning Odysseus to Ithaca, upon his return the story is of how he dispenses with those who tried to force Penelope into a choice and punishing them for the means they chose to press their case.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #723 on: February 26, 2011, 06:46:48 PM »
Oh perfect Pat - oh too perfect

"Nestor, old sir! If only your knees
Were as strong as your spirit...."
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #724 on: February 26, 2011, 08:15:07 PM »
The doorbolt:

Fagles: drawing the door shut with the silver hook,
sliding the doorbolt home with it's rawhide strap.

Lombardo: Pulled the door shut by its silver handle,
And drew the bolt home with the strap.

I took this to be the equivalent of the frontier latchstring.  Your door is held shut by a bolt--it has a string attached; if you want to get in from outside, or close the door after you, you poke the string through a hole.  then you can raise or lower the latch from outside.  "The latchstring is out" is an invitation--it means anyone is welcome to come in.

So what it means here is that Eurycleia is properly shutting the door after she goes out.  But, and I wouldn't have noticed this if Rosemary hadn't asked, there is kind of a final click to it:

"And drew the bolt home with the strap."  Snap.  Click.  Tomorrow is showdown time.

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #725 on: February 26, 2011, 10:23:58 PM »
There are some fabulous posts above.  I am about to look up Gerenian in my Liddell and Scott., but what Jude says makes sense.  My first impression was that Gerenian came from Gerousia, the name of the war council in Sparta.  They were called the Gerousia because they were all old, chiefs and leaders.  Nestor had ruled for three generations so certainly was no pup.  We get the word geriatric from the Greek root Ger (as applied, as mentioned) to the Gerousia.

I Checked my faithful L & S, which is all Greek, not English/Greek.  It is possible that if Gerenian is not a place name it could equate to elderly as I mentioned in the first para.  If I could see the word in Greek it would help a lot.  You have probably noticed that there are variations in transliterating Greek into English.  Anyway, my L&S has a couple iof interesting entries.  The adjective I have is "geraion" (masculine, singular) which means "old" and "venerable".  "Geraion" is in the same column as gerousia, so there is definitely a connection.  But without seeing the Greek writing, I cannot be sure that I am correct.

One of the most unfortunate mortals who suffered the wrath of an immortal was Medusa, who was once very beautiful.  She was turned into the snake haired monster by Athena when she was either raped by Poseidon; or "lay" with him on the floor of one of Athena's temples.  Another case of the woman copping the blame.  
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #726 on: February 26, 2011, 11:08:34 PM »
Oh Dear - I have just spotted an "anomaly".  The Captain will probably make me walk the plank for this, but it is not mine.

In an earlier post there was a section about "confusing terms".  One of those terms was Lacadaemonia.  The post entry defines this word as kingdom of Agamemnon in the Southern Peloponnese.  Actually Agamemnon's kingdom is Mycenae which is in the northern part of the Peloponnese.  The palace with The Lion Gate.  Mycenae was the stronghold of Agamemnon and Clytemnestra.  It was here that Schliemann found some wondrous gold items.

Lacadaemonia is actually southern Peloponnese and is another name for Sparta. If you have ever seen a picture of a Spartan soldier (think Thermopylae) he carries a large shield with what looks like an inverted V on it.  It is not a V, but actually an inverted capital Lamda= Λ.  That Λ actually is the first letter of Lacadaemonian, an alternative name for Spartan.  The KIA car company spells itself as KIΛ.  Because I have two brainσ, one Greek and the other - well I am not too sure - I always read that car's logo as KIL.

So when Telemachus goes to visit Helen and Menelaus he visits them in Sparta, not Mycenae.
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

Gumtree

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #727 on: February 26, 2011, 11:33:15 PM »
Interesting posts on the 'Generian' epithet. I'm still not convinced on any of them simply because if its meaning and/or origin was a clear cut case surely that would appear in one or other of the glossaries or annotations.

Jude's Fun Fact:  I'm wondering whether Colin Firth reads Odyssey in Greek  :D

PatH:  I wasn't around when you discussed Iliad - one of my true regrets.
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

rosemarykaye

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #728 on: February 27, 2011, 02:45:38 AM »
Does anyone else think that kylix at the top of the page looks a bit like Donald Duck? 

Rosemary

kidsal

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #729 on: February 27, 2011, 04:21:38 AM »
Wondering how much danger Telemachus was in?  Had there been threats from the suitors?  Did they take him seriously or would it be better if he was out of the way?  
Seems odd that no one in the palace would have told Penelope that Telemachus had left.  Not like the intrigue in the English palaces.
Why were Pylos and Sparta selected as the first stops?  Nestor's reputation for giving advice?

Νέστωρ Γερήνιος
Nestor Generian

Gumtree

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #730 on: February 27, 2011, 06:00:52 AM »
Have just finished Book III in the Cook version. and will read it this evening in the Fagles...

And yes, Barbara I do have 5 translations but must say they've been acquired one by one over my adult lifetime - say one translation every ten or twelve years.  :D


One question that's been rolling round in my mind all afternoon - why does everyone question Telemachus' paternity? I know that it's a wise son who knows his own father but those who question then go on to say T has the look of Odysseus etc.  I've probably missed discussion on this....

Interesting that the tragedy of the House of Atreus is reiterated and from different points of view - we hear it first from Zeus telling it from the gods' perspective and then Gerenian Nestor tells it from the perspective of a seasoned old man who amplifies the basic story told by Zeus. I see it as a warning to Telemachus to keep Penelope out of the suitors hands else the house of Odysseus should suffer the same fate.

Rosemary Donald Duck? - I do wish you hadn't said that  ;D
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #731 on: February 27, 2011, 06:52:45 AM »
Oh how interesting, I knew there was more than one reason I liked  Colin Firth. haahhaa

Pedln had a very interesting thing about the guy who founded Facebook and whom the new Oscar nominated movie is about... (have you all seen that?), maybe she will put it here, he's also interested in ... has a diploma in...Classics.

Roshannarose,  now I AM confused, for sure!  I rechecked my Fagles again and it does say Lacedaemon: city and kingdom of Menelaus, in the southern Peloponnese.

Then I read the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature and it says  Lacedaemon, the ancient Greek name of Sparta used by Homer both for the country (in the south east of the Peloponnese) and its capital.


Under the entry Menelaus, the Oxford says, "He reappears in the Odyssey living at Sparta, reconciled with Helen."  (You were right, Joan K, they DID get back together).

Am not sure now what to think?

Thank you all for Gerenian, I do think that one should be in SOME glossary, I mean after all! While looking thru the Pope to see what he had, I found, to my astonishment, the Flaxman Odyssey engravings, one of which (obviously from an old spattered book) is in the heading along with Donald Duck. ahahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

DONALD DUCK? haqhahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Anyway, here's a beauty: this is for Book III  and depicts Penelope Surprised by the Suitors as she tears out her weaving..isn't this something?


Pope has here as a verse:

We saw, as unperceived we took our stand,
the backward labours of her faithless hand.

Neat-O!

Also I found Pylos yesterday in Greece, here it is today, pretty place, am blown away by Frybabe's post on finding Netsor's PALACE, too!






May 13 is our last day of class for the 2023-2024 school year.  Ask about our Summer Reading Opportunities.

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #732 on: February 27, 2011, 07:40:27 AM »
Perhaps I should be spending more time with the Loeb. When I copied over this scan of the Greek for Roshannarose, which I see Sally (kidsal) has beaten me to the punch with, thank you  Sally!


I saw a small notation I had thought was a blot on the paper (go figure hahahaa) but it's a note.

First off Dr. Murray translates Gerenian as "Nestor of Gerenia."

Then there's a note after the word Nestor:

Apparently the original purpose of this rite, no longer understood in Homer's time, was to reconstitute the animal symbolically by burning representative bits of its several members together with the bones and fat." The reference given is Walter Burkert, Greek Religion, Cambridge and Oxford 14. 427-28.

So there you have it. hahahaa

I'll tell you, if this is the Dr. Murray I think it is, I wouldn't argue with anything he said. But I am beginning to think there are two of them, I'll research it. I have heard THE Dr. Murray spoken of with nothing but awe from a lot of renowned scholars. Of course Fagles (who says this is about a love story, that's what's at the bottom of it) and Lombardo are scholars, too.

Well  I have to say I'm with Homer unless somebody can find the Burkert and the chapter Odyssey as given, I have no earthly idea what they are saying.  Apparently there was a purpose in the ritual sacrifice, what has that to do with Telemachus's horses? It's a bag of? hmmm? Under the yoke? huh?


 Rosemary feels that the flashback technique is useful.
I think the flashbacks are essential to keep the story exciting.  We need to know what has led to all of this, but if Homer just rattled it all off in order, I don't think it would be as interesting.  I like this method.

What do the rest of you think? I had to get off early yesterday, my 4 year old grandson is staying over 4 days while his parents try to take a vacation, but I've been thinking this over.

Does this flashback thing keep your interest up? Or confuse things?


"Confused?  You won't be, after this week's episode of Soap"

Clearly things haven't changed for thousands of years.
  hahhasaa I loved that thing AND Mary Hartmann, Mary Hartmann. I like being confused (good thing) hahaa

I don't know WHY she didn't want to return home to her father. Apparently in this society like the Chinese once married you do leave the family home, is that what you all are getting? So to go back would be...a disgrace? Anybody know anything about this culture?


These are excellent questions from Sally to go with the ones from Rosemary:

Wondering how much danger Telemachus was in?  Had there been threats from the suitors?  Did they take him seriously or would it be better if he was out of the way? 

Seems odd that no one in the palace would have told Penelope that Telemachus had left.  Not like the intrigue in the English palaces.

Why were Pylos and Sparta selected as the first stops?  Nestor's reputation for giving advice?


These suitors seem not easy pushovers. I think T is in a lot of danger, he's already said they will kill him, I'm wondering if Penelope is of childbearing years and that's running out. An heir and a spare about to disappear? Whoever wins her will not want O's son claiming the throne.

But as Rosemary asks, how DID O get the throne? We really need to know this one, won by force? What can we find out?

I like PatH's explanation of the doorbolt. I wanted to look the same thing up in Butler,  but he does not use line numbers or anything so it's quite difficult.  Dr. Murray has the nurse "drawing the door to by its silver handle, and driving the bolt home with the thong."

What do make of that? Just something to keep the door shut? On the outside tho. But the next day he got up, got dressed and "went forth from his chamber like a god to look upon." (M) so apparently he was not locked in or this is not important.

It DOES remind one however of another closing and bolting of doors when O gets back, I'm glad we picked up on it.

Gum also has some great questions:

One question that's been rolling round in my mind all afternoon - why does everyone question Telemachus' paternity? I know that it's a wise son who knows his own father but those who question then go on to say T has the look of Odysseus etc.  I've probably missed discussion on this....

Interesting that the tragedy of the House of Atreus is reiterated and from different points of view - we hear it first from Zeus telling it from the gods' perspective and then Gerenian Nestor tells it from the perspective of a seasoned old man who amplifies the basic story told by Zeus. I see it as a warning to Telemachus to keep Penelope out of the suitors hands else the house of Odysseus should suffer the same fate.


I don't know why I think a question of his paternity might save his life, actually. If he's not the son of O, they don't have to kill him, which i think they probably would. But why, as  Rosemary asks, is it a line of inheritance?

I thought this was good by Barbara on the Choice of Penelope:

When we look at the arc of this entire Epic it hinges on Penelope having a choice and in spite of Odysseus' choices or dilly dallying from the gods returning Odysseus to Ithaca, upon his return the story is of how he dispenses with those who tried to force Penelope into a choice and punishing them for the means they chose to press their case.


Choice here might be another theme. Particularly in these epic poems where the hero...has a choice or does he?

Aeneas and Dido, how many operas have been made of that? He chooses to leave her...does he choose or do the gods make him? The gods literally made me do it, he says when he meets her in Hell because she killed herself. She won't even talk to him. "I had to go found Rome," he says.

Here's O, stuck off on an island with Calypso and he's been there a LOOONG time, (how long? I forget),  dilly dallying as Barbara says, because of the gods? Because of his own choice?

I dunno, why would telling this story in the order it happened change the interest? You could have flashbacks of Meanwhile Back in the Castle, for that matter, would it change things? I must admit to a desire to keep moving, that's clever story telling.

This is a nice point by Pedln which I missed completely:

.   .    .the gods have long since counseled his (Odysseus’) destruction.  .    .    However, I should like to ask Nestor, for he knows much more than anyone else does.  They say he has reigned for three generations, so it is like talking to an immortal.
  (Butler)

Telemachus is saying this to a goddess?  He does need to watch his tongue.  He maturing, but has Mentor’s presence made him a bit full of himself?



I do get the impression T is full of self. He's impotent, he can do nothing about his mother but order her upstairs and  then he leaves. He can do nothing about the suitors, he does try, they laugh him off and get serious when he doesn't. Apparently these men are nothing to fool around with. One boy against these hardened warriors apparently is no match at all. I note no fisticuffs have evolved yet. Would fisticuffs in this group lead inevitably to death? (Please don't give me the "noble Greeks," always killing each other, sheesh).  But I had a student in my face to face class point the difference between the Athenian Greeks and the Spartan. Maybe there is something important being said here by the constant references to where they come from? Apparently there was QUITE a difference?

Must have been a very big castle, as someone said here, that T's mother is not to know. Kind of like a Chinese palace. Why not? Would she try to stop him? Would she lament at losing her other man in the house?  Would she feel afraid to face the suitors alone? Didn't she WANT him to go, tell him to go somewhere and look for news of his father?

So many great questions to ponder and discuss and here's Frybabe with what may have BEEN Nestor's palace!! Wowza!  Thank you! I personally don't for one moment dispute that these people lived. Legends may have grown up around them but I think somewhere way underneath there's a kernel of truth.

Fantastic adventure we're on now!

Oh and in this one Rosemary mentions:

- line 239 of Book 3, which Fagles translates as;

 "Now that you mention it, dear boy"


Lombardo has, "Well then, my child, I will tell you all.) (280)

Murray has, "Since you ask, my child, I will tell you the truth. (254)

I'm interested to hear what the others have?


Fantastic adventure/odyssey we're on now!


May 13 is our last day of class for the 2023-2024 school year.  Ask about our Summer Reading Opportunities.

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #733 on: February 27, 2011, 07:48:54 AM »
Oh oh oh look look look, where IS my mind? Look what else I found yesterday, the complete Odyssey drawings of John Flaxman:

http://www.mccunecollection.org/Odyssey%20of%20Homer.html

Wooo hoo!
May 13 is our last day of class for the 2023-2024 school year.  Ask about our Summer Reading Opportunities.

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #734 on: February 27, 2011, 09:16:52 AM »
Hmmmm.  I am glad we have cleared up the Spartan question.  I am not perfect, but I doubt that I would debate this statement if it was correct.  Oh well - c'est la vie.

As for Gerenia, Jude is absolutely correct, but it is not an adjective, which misled me.  It is actually a Genitive, e.g. Nestor of Gerenia.  This makes absolute sense, backed up by my translation..
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #735 on: February 27, 2011, 09:28:10 AM »
RoshannaRose, thank you for the translation!

Help me out with this one?  I'm still confused. You said, In an earlier post there was a section about "confusing terms".  One of those terms was Lacadaemonia.  The post entry defines this word as kingdom of Agamemnon in the Southern Peloponnese.  Actually Agamemnon's kingdom is Mycenae which is in the northern part of the Peloponnese.  The palace with The Lion Gate.  Mycenae was the stronghold of Agamemnon and Clytemnestra.  It was here that Schliemann found some wondrous gold items.

Was this my post? I worried that I had misquoted Fagles, who didn't mention Agamemnon, you did, he says what I posted:

Roshannarose,  now I AM confused, for sure!  I rechecked my Fagles again and it does say Lacedaemon: city and kingdom of Menelaus, in the southern Peloponnese.

Then I read the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature and it says  Lacedaemon, the ancient Greek name of Sparta used by Homer both for the country (in the south east of the Peloponnese) and its capital.


Which one of those is wrong? Or both?
May 13 is our last day of class for the 2023-2024 school year.  Ask about our Summer Reading Opportunities.

Babi

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #736 on: February 27, 2011, 09:51:38 AM »
Quote
Everybody is a son of.
  Yes, indeed. It's the equivalent of a last name for us. It's more obvious in names like Ericson or Williamson.

 It occurs to me that the suitors' disrespect for their elders is
of a piece with their abuse of hospitality. This is a pretty shoddy
lot, by Greek or modern standards.

  Rosemary, my own take on wise men not lying, is simply that they
are wise enough to know that it doesn't pay in the long run. You get
caught in the lies and lose your credibility, at the very least.

  Does Telemachus know that this is Athena accompanying him? There
is a real 'Mentor', a known friend and guide. He knows that Athena
once appeared to him in that form, but does he really know that the
'Mentor' accompanying him day by day is Athena and not his friend?
Where is the real Mentor, by the way? Is this some sort of godly
'occupation' of a mortal?
 
  Interesting questions about modern sacrifices. I would suppose that
practices like the Lenten fasts are a modern form of sacrifice. And
many people still practice giving up something special for the season.
Congregations are frequently asked for a 'sacrificial'level of giving
for some church need.
  I suppose that originally the idea of sacrifice was to give back,
in some way, in gratitude for all that the gods gave men. Obviously,
they don't need those slaughtered oxen, etc., for food. It was the
idea that counted.
 The suicide bombers who give up their lives are doing so in hopes of
a great reward in paradise, and the assurance that the act is pleasing
to God. Just as terrible an injustice as Agamemnon's sacrifice of his
daughter. May that is why Athena hated the man. ??

 GUM, I took those references to Telemachus looking like his father
to be the normal, common, .."Oh, you look just like your Daddy! I'd
know you anywhere!"
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Gumtree

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #737 on: February 27, 2011, 10:52:21 AM »
 
Quote
line 239 of Book 3, which Fagles translates as;

 "Now that you mention it, dear boy"

Lombardo has, "Well then, my child, I will tell you all.) (280)

Murray has, "Since you ask, my child, I will tell you the truth. (254)

I'm interested to hear what the others have?

Albert Cook has - line 254

"All right, my child, I shall tell you all of the truth"

Rieu has  - no line No.

'My child,' Gerenian Nestor answered, 'I shall be glad to tell you the whole tale.'

Interesting that Cook and Murray have the same line number as Cook emphasizes that his translation tries to render the poem not only literally, but line by line, so that almost always the expressions in a given line of Greek are those in the corresponding English line.  Looks like Murray was doing the same. On the other hand Rieu's prose version is  more verbose overall.
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Gumtree

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #738 on: February 27, 2011, 11:54:44 AM »
Quote
I'll tell you, if this is the Dr. Murray I think it is, I wouldn't argue with anything he said. But I am beginning to think there are two of them, I'll research it. I have heard THE Dr. Murray spoken of with nothing but awe from a lot of renowned scholars

Ginny: I'm sure your Dr Murray is Gilbert Murray who was renown as a Greek scholar and his translations of Greek plays and of course Homer.
He was, in fact, born in Sydney, Australia (where else, I ask you) - studied at Oxford I think, certainly taught there. He was also very involved in firstly, the League of Nations and then the United Nations of which he was a founding member and its first President.

This is from the blurb on the cover of his Rise of the Greek Epic
 
Gilbert Murray, Regius Professor of Greek in the University of Oxford from 1908 to 1936, was the best-known interpreter of Greek literature in the present century. His writings include many verse translations of Greek plays. and studies of Euripides, Aristophanes and Aeschylus. He also edited Euripides and Aeschylus (Oxford Classical Texts), and was an editor of the Oxford Book of Greek Verse
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #739 on: February 27, 2011, 10:14:44 PM »
"So when Telemachus goes to visit Helen and Menelaus he visits them in Sparta, not Mycenae." Yes, Lombardo has Menelaus referring to it as Sparta.

I have a question for those of you who know greek. Is Mentor called mentor because of a greek word with the modern meaning of mentor, or do we get the modern word from the Odyssey character? Does anyone know?(Which came first, the chicken or the egg?)

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #740 on: February 27, 2011, 10:20:14 PM »
Ginny - As I said before there is no way I would contradict what I know to be true.  

In an earlier post there was a section about "confusing terms".  One of those terms was Lacadaemonia.  The post entry defines this word as kingdom of Agamemnon in the Southern Peloponnese.

Actually Agamemnon's kingdom is Mycenae which is in the northern part of the Peloponnese.  The palace with The Lion Gate.  Mycenae was the stronghold of Agamemnon and Clytemnestra.  It was here that Schliemann found some wondrous gold items.
Lacadaemonia is actually southern Peloponnese and is another name for Sparta. If you have ever seen a picture of a Spartan soldier (think Thermopylae) he carries a large shield with what looks like an inverted V on it.  It is not a V, but actually an inverted capital Lamda= Λ.  That Λ actually is the first letter of Lacadaemonian, an alternative name for Spartan.


You must have misquoted Fagles, otherwise why should I correct it?  This is no big deal, we all make mistakes. It would be an easy mistake to make to write Agamemnon, rather than Menelaus.  I make mistakes every day, e.g. my hunch about gerenia was wrong.  That's fine because I learned something from it.    However, because there had been some confusion in other posts earlier about Agamemnon and Menelaus, I thought it best to point out what I have quoted above.  I note now that your original post (re Fagles) has been changed from Agamemnon to Menelaus.

I hope this settles this matter.  We can agree to disagree.
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #741 on: February 27, 2011, 10:22:58 PM »
We'll be moving on to Book 4 soon. There Menelaus and Helen tell us some of the things that happened after the end of The Iliad. One of the stories refers to "the wooden horse." Did anyone forget to read the newspapers the day that happened, and need an update?

Babi

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #742 on: February 28, 2011, 08:59:25 AM »
Fitzgerald's translation is close to Lombardo's, GUM.  It reads,
 "Well, now, my son, I'll tell you the whole story". This is what
I like most about Fitzgerald; his people and the way they speak sound
real to me. 
  Something I found curious, but could find no good information about
it.  All I read about minstrels describes them as wandering bards, who
became regular fixtures in royal courts in the middle ages. However,
the minstrel Phemios seems to be a resident at Telemachus home , and we find that Agamamnon, on sailing for Troy, left his wife
under the 'companionship' (guardianship?) of a minstrel.  This
suggests that minstrels sometimes took on roles beyond singing and
telling stories.  Can anyone tell me more about this?
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #743 on: February 28, 2011, 02:08:25 PM »
T his is a nice  power point of the history of Minstrels - For awhile I was looking into the Jester which spills over into the Minstrel and it helped me sort it out to know in ancient times the Minstrel was not only adapt in poetry and music but also history and the healing arts - the Minstrel had to be proficient in one healing art.

Ancient Minstrels were considered Bards rather than the Troubadours we can picture from the Middle Ages - and as this power point shows even in early Europe, Bards were hired by a patron to commemorate their ancestors and praise the patron..  They were not the roving musicians from later times which was after they lost their prestige.

http://www.authorstream.com/Presentation/sancarnomad-325676-evolution-minstrels-nomads-epics-education-ppt-powerpoint/

And so with that it is easy to see that in Ancient Greece the Bard would be the most  intellectual member of his court or in service - the warrior was brave and wily but I see  no where that he was given Kudos for his scholarship or intelligence - plus the ancient Mistral would have some healing knowledge - what better person to leave responsible for your wife and children.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JudeS

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #744 on: February 28, 2011, 05:51:26 PM »
Barb
Thanks for the material on the minstrels.

Here are some facts I've gleaned from reading various sources.  We have not discussed who the poems were written for, so this is the material in relation to that thought.
The Greek poets wrote for an aristocratic audience and glorified leaders of the past.Neither the Illiad or the Odyssey is much concerned with democracy.That some men are born leaders and others just a faceless mob was accepted as fact. The few common people mentioned (like Telemachus's servant girl) are there because of their loyalty to their leaders or masters.
Before the audience heard the tale they were familiar with the stories and wanted to relish new insights offered by the poet.(Sort of like us comparing translators).
The Greeks believed that Homer took his divinities seriously and many revered the books as religous  as well as literary texts.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #745 on: February 28, 2011, 06:57:13 PM »
Quote
The Greek poets wrote for an aristocratic audience and glorified leaders of the past.Neither the Iliad or the Odyssey is much concerned with democracy.
Jude that is in keeping with earlier research that the city/states we associate with ancient Greece called "polis" that were political entities ruled by a body of citizens divided into types of citizenship did not develop till the Archaic period, which is after the Dark Age. The first city/states were ruled by a king or a small oligarchy. Sparta is considered my most scholars as the first city/state in the 9th century near or at the time of the Trojan War but it was not a polis. Ancient Greeks didn't refer to those who lived in Athens, Sparta, Thebes as citizens, as in a poleis, but rather, the inhabitants were, Athenians, Lacedaemonians, Thebans.

Some days the gods are with you -  :D found the link I read a week or so ago that I thought had a good explanation of the polis - when and why and how it occurred http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/GLOSSARY/POLIS.HTM

Interesting "religious as well as literary texts" - I guess to eek out the religion is to see some of the sacrifice included in the Epic as part of religion and not just as a further description of begging gods for assistance...??!~!?? What do you think - is that what is the religion? hmmm
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Dana

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #746 on: February 28, 2011, 10:27:07 PM »
"Why were Pylos and Sparta selected as first stops?"

They are both good examples of "intact families" so to speak, and serve as a contrast to Telemachus' lack of family without its head.  You've got old garrulous Nestor with his sons and wife waiting for him in bed,or whatever !, and weak Menelaus (at least I always think he is) and lovely still alluring Helen and the delightful one upmanship power play between her and him

I believe our use of "mentor" comes from the use of the name in The Odyssey.

Menelaus is king of Sparta/Lacedaemonia.  Agamemnon was king of Mycenae.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #747 on: March 01, 2011, 12:23:39 AM »
Is there a schedule of what chapters we are reading when - are we starting chapter 4 - and if not when do we start chapter 4...I am anxious to read what happens next and I like the feedback from everyone - makes the story rather than reading it alone.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #748 on: March 01, 2011, 01:29:36 AM »
We'll start chapter 4 on Friday. It's a longer one, so you might want to start reading now.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #749 on: March 01, 2011, 01:51:16 AM »
Thanks  :-*
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Babi

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #750 on: March 01, 2011, 08:28:38 AM »
 Thank you so much for that synopsis, BARB. I had found that site,
but being unable to listen to the video, I had only the brief written
descriptions below. This is exactly the information I wanted.

 With mind wandering a bit, I couldn't help but wonder what 'debt'
Athena wished to collect from the Kaukonians.  Couldn't find anything
helpful, but I suspect those folks are in serious trouble.  I did learn that
the Kaukonians are descended from Kaukon (Caucon?), a priest of
Demeter who spread her religion into what became the region of the
Kaukonians.  So far as I could find, tho', Athena had no quarrel with
Demeter, so that doesn't seem to have been the problem.

"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #751 on: March 01, 2011, 10:18:35 AM »
Gosh what wonderful background and links, thank you Barbara and Jude!! And Dana I loved your post,  I like your answer to the question why Pylos, it sure fits, doesn't it? I did not know we get the word mentor from the Odyssey, I'm not surprised.

I'm so glad to get here at last, we had tornado warnings last night and here in the beautiful sunny day the satellite would not work! I hope this posts, there's still quite the wind.

I also have my 4 year old grandson here for a "Jammy Partay," he's been here since Saturday while his parents try to take a well earned vacation. I have always seen people say here, I've got the grandkids here and disappear and I never understood. hahaah I do now. It's been quite the  4 days. :)

Babi,

So far as I could find, tho', Athena had no quarrel with
Demeter, so that doesn't seem to have been the problem.


Oh mercy, another feud,  there sure are a lot of them, woe betide the mortal who gets in the way of the gods and their wrath tho.

It's quite complicated, and I was very interested in Barb's Minstrel findings.

We said initially that we would do our schedule as it suited us, and I think 4 is a good idea for Friday, is everybody up to III at this point? Is there anything you are wondering about?

Roshannarose, oh! hahaha I honestly did not know what you were saying, I thought you were saying Fagles (or Knox) or the OCCL was wrong? Oh you're talking about me? I'm always wrong, it doesn't bother me a bit. Particularly about Greece, of which I know next to nothing.  I hope to remedy that with this,  and so far I've learned a lot. :)

Gum, it was Gilbert Murray of whom I have always heard, but this is not  Gilbert, it is another one!

Oh gosh I've lost all my notes previous to this morning on the computer as well, sigh sigh.

This is A.T. Murray Augustus Taber Murray (1866-1940), Professor of Greek at Stanford for 40 years. The editor of this Harvard Loeb says, "No more faithful translation of Homer was ever made......Translation today, however, has to satisfy different expectations." So "Homerist"  George Dimock of  Smith college did the editing of the English phraseology, only altering the Greek in 6 places. Where he differs from Murray's notes, he puts his own too. Precious few notes at all.

It is, as you note, almost line by line tho. I'm not familiar with Cook. I like literal translations, myself.

So it's not THE Dr. Murray, it's another one. I'm afraid to find out if they are related some way.  I wonder in passing what passes for a mind this morning how many Murrays in Classics there ARE? hahaha

Dana why do you think of Menelaus as weak? That's interesting!

I liked Rosemary's and Babi's  stabs at sacrifice, it's an interesting concept.

I'm sort  of confused about the nurse, too.  She seems to keep appearing, but why is she important? I'm struck by the constancy implied? Or is it? In the women in this piece. Yet it's a woman who undoes Penelope, right? A servant girl who lets them in on her unweaving it by night?

Why would she do that? Does anybody wonder but me? Did she hope to curry favor with whatever suitor was chosen? Surely as a woman servant she understood that she would be in disfavor with Penelope, tho? What do you think might have been the rationale here? Whatever it was it will seriously backfire for her.

Loyalty or lack of it appears here too as a theme.

Was it Sally with the Temple Study Guide for the Odyssey? I went to look and on this site: http://www.temple.edu/classics/odysseyho/index.html  I found some interesting summaries and questions, would you say we're up on these three books or....?


Quote
Book 1

77 Invocation to the Muse; survey of Odysseus' condition in the 10th year of his wanderings. "The whole of the action and most of the principal persons are introduced in the first few hundred lines." (D. Page) What is missing from the proem (the opening lines)? How does it define Odysseus? Why is Poseidon angry? As you read on, ask whether the action goes as the proem says it will.

Quote
78-80 Council of the gods on Olympus. What types of gods does Homer present? How do they match your expectations? Why is Aegisthus singled out by Zeus? What kind of system of morality does Zeus invoke? Why is Athena so concerned with Odysseus? Why is Zeus so surprised with her plea? In the line ending her speech, the words "dead set against," odusso, puns on the hero's name

Are the concerns and behavior of the gods any different here than in the Iliad?

81-86 Athena goes disguised to Ithaca to see Telemachus and persuade him to seek news of his father. What is happening in Ithaca? What kind of person is Telemachus? How old is he? What does he need? Why does Athena mention Orestes to him? Is her story about him complete? And why start in Ithaca, not with Odysseus? Note the concern with hospitality, which will be a key theme throughout the epic.

88-9 Penelope is upset at the song of a bard who tells of the sufferings of the heroes. Telemachus replies that Zeus, not the bard, is to blame. Zeus earlier blamed humans for their sufferings. As you read the rest of the epic, think about whether Zeus or Telemachus is correct.


Book 2



93-96 T. complains in the assembly of the suitors' bad behavior and smashes a scepter to the ground. Try to remember a similar scene of scepter-smashing in Homer and think about what point the poet might be trying to make with the comparison.

97-106 Athena, disguised as Mentor, appears to Telemachus and promises help. He sails off, after asking Eurycleia under oath of secrecy, to prepare provisions. Who is in charge in Ithaca? Where is O.'s father? Is T. just looking for O.? And why should Telemachus visit Nestor and Menelaus?

How has Penelope kept the suitors at bay for so long?

Book 3

The travels begin. At each place, act as an anthropologist, noting the customs, landscape and character of the people; start with Ithaca itself. T. arrives first at the palace of Nestor. Why go there first? What is happening at Pylos as T. arrives?What do we learn about O. here? Note the gracious hospitality he receives from Nestor; compare T.'s reception of Athena earlier. Keep your eyes open for other such encounters. One thing to watch: when does the guest reveal his name? What sign does Nestor see as indicating Athena's presence?

I like this one:

Quote
88-9 Penelope is upset at the song of a bard who tells of the sufferings of the heroes. Telemachus replies that Zeus, not the bard, is to blame. Zeus earlier blamed humans for their sufferings. As you read the rest of the epic, think about whether Zeus or Telemachus is correct.

Given the gods situation here what hope do the mortals actually HAVE? So how can anything be the mortal's fault?


And this is a great question:

Who is in charge in Ithaca?


I love that one, who would YOU say? Why?

(What does he mean, "proem?")

So we're about to start Week 4 on  Friday, who is in charge back home? I love that question. How do we define "in charge?"

And I've got another question just based on reading these. He says "81-86 Athena goes disguised to Ithaca to see Telemachus and persuade him to seek news of his father."

That makes me wonder why? Why appear in disguise and then fly off as a...vulture so he knows it's you? What's the point?

Let's hear from everybody, what are your thoughts on the first three books? Are you feeling pretty confident so far? Or what are you wondering? Or what  do we lack?














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Gumtree

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #752 on: March 01, 2011, 10:53:47 AM »
Quote
I wonder in passing what passes for a mind this morning how many Murrays in Classics there ARE? hahaha

Ginny, how amazing that there were two Murrays working at the same time and in the same field and both were born in the same year- Gilbert Murray 1866-1957 and Augustus T Murray 1866-1940 -

Another Murray, overlapping the same period a little but of the previous generation was our friend Sir James Augustus Murray, one time Prof of Greek at Glasgow but better known as the first editor of the OED. I know quite a bit about him because he was born in the same village, Denholm in Scotland as were some of our family.  :)
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #753 on: March 01, 2011, 03:18:24 PM »
GUM: the two Murrays were born in the same year. could they be twins? Both had long lives, didn't they. The gods must have looked favorably on their work.

Tell us about the first editor of the Oxford English Dictionary. Does he appear in "The Professor and the Madman", the book about the making of the OED? I read it years ago and, as usual, don't remember anyone's name.

Hmmm -- good questions. I can answer the easy ones, anyway.

I love the gods and the humans each blaming each other. Doesn't this sound familiar? "It's his fault!!" "No, it's his fault!!" There's a quote I love about that from someone named Smith:

" Whether the weak link or the heavy load is called the cause of the chain breaking always depends on which one you'd rather fix."

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #754 on: March 01, 2011, 03:24:01 PM »
Holy Hannah are we going to revisit Luther and try for the definitive decision on free will versus predestination as ordained this time by the gods rather than by "the" God of Abraham??!!??
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Roxania

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #755 on: March 01, 2011, 03:41:38 PM »
Oh, my goodness, I have house guests for a few days, and look how behind I get!

The whole question of sacrifices brings two things to mind:  

1.  Christianity in itself is based on the idea of Christ as a sacrifice.  I'm not an expert on this by any means, but apparently some scholars believe that this concept originated not in Judaism, which doesn't emphasize the afterlife or the messiah as a sacrifice, but in the Graeco-Roman religious practices that were widespread all around the Mediterranean at the time; the New Testament was, after all, written in Greek.  (And yes, I was kind of grossed out by the animal sacrifices in book III.  But as a child I was always REALLY grossed out when Pastor Ludwig got to the "Take, eat, this is my body. . ." part of the Communion in church!  Mom would always poke me and whisper, "Don't you dare say 'EWWWWW'!")

2.  I think there is still a ritual, sacrificial element in the very specific method of slaughter required for an animal to be considered kosher--the animal's throat must be slit so that it bleeds to death quickly.  It's probably similar to what the ancients did when they were slaughtering animals for religious sacrifice.  Modern sanitation experts may point out that kosher slaughterhouses are cleaner than their non-kosher counterparts, but the real reason it's done that way is because it says so in the Torah.  

how many Murrays in Classics there ARE?

Well, if you count me, there are at least three Murrays in Classics.  I'm just splashing around in the shallow end, but still...  

As to who's in charge back in Ithaca while Telemachus is gone, I really don't know.  I didn't know who was in charge when he was still home, either, come to think of it.  I suspect it must be Ginny's old friend Tension--this time among the suitors.  If any one of them tried to carry Penelope off by force, he'd presumably have all the others to answer to.  

 

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #756 on: March 01, 2011, 09:20:56 PM »
Why visit Pylos and Nestor first?[/b]  (In addition to Sal's and Dana's)  Two reasons I think:

1) Geographically, Pylos is closer to Ithaca than Sparta by ship.  Sparta is not a port and is quite a long way inland.  So visiting Pylos first would just be easier.

2) It is fair to say that Athena is "grooming" Telemachus.  She is aware of his youth (I think he is twenty) and wants to present him as the son of a King, Odysseus, who T is trying to find.   Athena wants Telemachus to prove his maturity by discussing his father with Nestor.  Telemachus baulks:

"Mentor, how shall I go up there and greet him?*
I've had no practice with such formal speech.
And then, when a young man seeks to question
an older one, that could bring him shame."


but true to Athena's faith in him, he presents himself admirably.  No doubt he learns a lot from Nestor.

Nestor is so impressed with the young Telemachus, that he offers him a chariot and his son, Pisistratus, as guard and companion in order to reach Sparta (and Menelaus) with all speed. 

In reality Sparta sits in very rugged terrain and it is doubtful that there was a road in the Bronze Age. 

This journey is an impossible one. Telemachus and Pisistratus would have been obliged to drive over the Taygetus range, over which there has never yet been a road for wheeled vehicles. It is plain therefore that the audience for whom the "Odyssey" was written was one that would be unlikely to know anything about the topography of the Peloponnese, so that the writer might take what liberties he chose.

Read more: Telemachus Visits Nestor at Pylos. http://www.infoplease.com/t/lit/odyssey/book3.html#ixzz1FP7fn7QK
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

Dana

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #757 on: March 01, 2011, 10:25:20 PM »
My bet is that the servant girl who gave Penelope's trick away was probably seduced by one of the suitors. We shall see.

I think Zeus is correct when he blames human beings for their own misfortunes. The gods may interfere but it seems humans still have freedom to make their choices. There is an ambiguity surrounding the actions of the gods.   Athena helps Telemachus but on the other hand he could be finally maturing himself with the help of the real humans Mentes and Mentor.  This is what is so absolutely brilliant about the story for me.

straudetwo

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #758 on: March 02, 2011, 12:26:27 AM »
Ginny,   reading the familiar story in English has been a wonderful experience so far.  I greatly enjoy the Lombardo translation. It is melodic and flows beautifully.

Early on someone question the mention of Minerva. That's what the Romans called Athena. They adopted the pantheon of Greek gods and gave them  all Roman names.

Until Odysseus sailed for Troy, he was king of Ithaca. His long absence has not changed the status. Laërtes, his  old grief- stricken father, has gone to his farm where his wife had died of a broken heart, as we would now call it. It would seem that nobody is in charge in Ithaca; the suitors have taken over the home and put Penelope under siege.

There are lists in the web, identifying the characters in the Odyssey. Here is what one of them says about
 Mentor - A faithful friend of Odysseus who was left behind on Ithaca  (when O. left for Troy) as Telemachus' tutor.
He is wise, sober and loyal.  According to another list he also was to be  also a sor of an 'overseer' in the palace.  I'm going to have to find my note on this one.
Obviously, Telemachus knew Mentor someone asked about that) and trusted his tutor.

More tomorrow.

Gumtree

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #759 on: March 02, 2011, 02:21:16 AM »
Quote
GUM: the two Murrays were born in the same year. could they be twins

JoanK:  :D No not twins - doubt if there was any relationship

1. . Gilbert Murray had an elder brother, Hubert, who was brilliant in the law and who became the Administrator of Papua New Guinea at a time when things there were going from bad to worse. He did much to improve the administration of law and order and vastly improved the lot of the Papuans and New Guineans.

A little trivia: Gilbert Murray, our distinguished Greek scholar married into the British aristocracy -his bride was one of the Howard family and the ceremony took place at Castle Howard which was used as the Flytes' family home in Bridehead Revisited .

2. I don't know anything much about Augustus T Murray who is Ginny's Dr. Murray.

Sir James Murray  - he of OED fame also has quite a history but not really connected with our Odyssey. His is a rags to riches story - at least from modest circumstances to that of scholastic fame. He was fundamentally a philologist and his reputation rests on his lexicography work which resulted in the OED. And yes, he does appear in Simon Winchester's story of the making of the OED. He is also referred to as 'the professor' in the Surgeon of Crawthorne aka The Professor and the Madman.

More Trivia: Sir James Murray received so much mail that anything addressed to ‘Mr Murray, Oxford’ would always find its way to him, and such was the volume of post sent by Murray and his team that the Post Office erected a special post box outside Murray’s house which is still there complete with a suitable commemorative plaque nearby.

4. And now we have a fourth 'Classics' Murray among us in the form of Roxania Murray who says she is cavorting around the edges.  :D








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