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Now reading:

March 14---Book V:  Odysseus, Calypso, and Hermes  

A Fantastic Cave Landscape with Odysseus & Calypso
Jan Breughel the Elder (painted with Hendrick de Clerck)
c. 1612

Calypso offers Odysseus a chest
Lucanian red figure hydria
c. 450 BC
Museo Nazionale, Naples

  

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  

Hermes' message to Calypso
Engraving and etching on paper
John Flaxman
1805
Tate Gallery

Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
Map of the  Voyages of Odysseus
Map of Voyages in order
Map of Stops Numbered
Our Map Showing Place Names in the Odyssey

Hermes visits Calypso and Odysseus
Etching
Hubert Maurer (1738-1818)

A modern Calypso:
Tia Dalma aka Calypso, goddess of the sea
The Pirates of the Caribbean, At World's End
2007

 
Lattimore--in the introduction he says

there is sometimes an odd note of inconsistency

which might explain confusions cropping up here and there
--------------------------
 
E. V. Rieu

Doubts and fears chased through her mind as they do through a lion's when he finds himself surrounded by the beaters and stands in terror as they stealthily close in

Lattimore

But in the upper chamber, circumspect Penelope,lay there fasting, she had tasted no food nor drink, only pondering whether her stately son would escape from dying or have to go down under the hands of the insolent suitors; and as much as a lion  caught in a crowd of men turns about in fear, when they have made a treacherous circle about him, so she was pondering....

I see this as comparing Penelope to the behaviour of a cornered lion, pacing and scared; those traits of a lion in that situation
going in circles, not sure whichway to go with her problems( but not the traits of a lion generally when in command of his environment,) and all the worries do not solve anything...... generally just making it worse...till fortunately the goddess Athene steps in with the dream of her sister...taking some of the pressure off....

Deb

[JudeS]

There are many things weird about the marriage of Helen and Menelaus. The table in Fagles ,page 500, shows she had children with Deucalion and Aeolusenelaus.The children are Salmoneus and Cretheus, who fathered Tyros , wife of Poseidon.So Helen is the Grandmother of Poseidon. How strange!

If we look at one of Fagels geneology charts "The Geneology of Tyro" we see that Helen could be from an older generation than Menelaus. The  articles on Helen list (by name) close to 70 different suitors for Helens hand. It is not just Paris who wants her for his own.  The articles seem to indicate that Paris was too weak and unmanly to  catch her as a real lover.
She plays with many men and she doesn't seem to age. Some sources say she was abducted and raped when she was seven. Other sources claim she was ten. They all agree she was gorgeous.

What really caught my imagination was the fact that the word Hellenistic describes a whole civilization. In researching this I found that there are two words and they mean different things. First Hellenistic civilization, 323-146 BC, represents a fusion
of the ancient Greece, the Near East, Middle East and Southwest Asia. The Hellenistic period was characterized by a wave of Greek Colonization. The mixture of cultures gave birth to a common dialect known as Hellenistic Greek.
 Hellenistic itself is derived from Helen. It was the Greeks traditional name for themselves. Some still claim that it came from the nale of the moon...but I don't want to go into all the theories.Greek culture before Alexander the Great is known as Hellenic.
So

[JudeS]

The whole board froze up on me-why?why?why?
Anyhow I will finish here what I wanted to continue in the previous post.
So is Helen a symbol for Greece? Why would they become a "Hellenistic civilization with a Hellenistic language? Why were they Helleniv before Alexander and hellenistic afterwards?
I'm sure there is a Doctoral thesis there somewhere but perhaps you studiers of Greece and its History and Language can explain why the nation would have this women's name, or, does she have the name of the Nation?

[Babi]

I see my posts are breaking up into uneven lines again. I have no idea why that happens.
  Let's just say Helen is grandmother to Poseidon's wife, JUDE.  The
mind boggles at calling her Poseidon's grandmother.  Apparently being a
demigod is a great preservative of life and beauty.

[Gumtree]

perhaps you studiers of Greece and its History and Language can explain why the nation would have this women's name, or, does she have the name of the Nation?

Jude:  What a perfectly magnificent question you've asked - it's been rolling round my mind all evening - Does Helen have the name of the Nation? - of course I've no idea in this world as to the answer but why wouldn't Helen - the idea of Helen - be simply a symbol - the attributes of the nation itself applied to the symbolic form of a woman. Perhaps the nation was worth the ten years of war.

[Gumtree]

 

good points on why T refused the gifts. I am wondering tho what this does to the notion of hospitality? 

[/b]

Ginny: The refusal of gifts may be par for the course. In Book I as she takes her leave of Telemachus, Athene refuses his offer to wait while he finds her a gift -

Bk I:314 Cook
Then the bright-eyed goddess Athene answered him,
"Do not hold me back now, longing as I am for the journey,
Whatever gift your own heart bids to you give me,
Give it to me to carry home when I return again.
And pick a lovely one. It will be worth the exchange to you."
Having spoken so, bright-eyed Athene went off.

I guess if it's good enough for Athene to decline the offer then its Ok for Telemachus to do likewise.

Lombardo sets it off with no mention of Penelope:

Surrounded by men, a lion broods and then panics
When they begin to tighten their crafty ring.

This is set off in italics and even indented.  He did this in the Iliad too.

What do the other translations say?[/quote][/b]

My Cook translation Line 792:

As much as a lion deliberates in a crowd of men,
Fearing when they draw the stealthy circle about him...

This is called something, anybody remember what? These extended similes?

[/b]


The only thing I can think of is that it's the epic simile -

From Cuddens Dictionary of Literary Terms :

epic simile: an extended simile in some cases running from fifteen to twenty lines, in which the comparisons made are elaborated in considerable detail. It is a common feature of epic poetry, but is found in other kinds as well...

Cudden cites Milton as the reference but of course, it originates with Homer.

M.H Abrams says:

Epic Similes are formal, sustained similes in which the secondary subject, or vehicle, is elaborated far beyond its specific points or close parallel to the primary subject or tenor, to which it is compared. This figure  (of speech) was imitated from Homer by Virgil, Milton, and other writers of literary epics, who employed it to enhance the ceremonial quality and wide-ranging reference of the narrative style.

Abrams also cites Milton.

[ginny]

Gosh what great posts here!!  Thank you  Gum for that great info on the Epic simile.

This is also a great question from JudeS: So is Helen a symbol for Greece? Why would they become a "Hellenistic civilization with a Hellenistic language? Why were they Helleniv before Alexander and hellenistic afterwards?

The OCCL says Hellas and Hellene are names used by the Greeks in classical times to denote Greece and the Greeks. Homer (who did not have a comprehensive name of the Greeks, calling them Achaeans, Argives or Danaans) used these names to denote a small regions of south Thessaly and its inhabitants; by Penhellenes he seems to mean the northern, as opposed to the southern, Greeks. Hesiod, however, uses Hellas in the general sense of Greece, and from about the seventh century BC onwards the Greeks called themselves and their country by these names, deriving them from a mythical ancestor Hellen. (note the two l's),  and it does go on and on throughout history.... if anybody wants to hear more.

Hellen in Greek myth (that last e is long), was the eponymous ancestor ( a man) of the Hellenes, usually described as the son of Pyrrha and Deucalion. He was the father of Dorus, Aeolus and Xuthus, whose sons were Ion and Achaeus, thus he engendered  the ancestors of the main ethnic divisions of the Greeks in historical times.

Hellenism is the national character and culture of the ancient Greeks.

Hellenistic is the term used to denote the civilization,  language, art, and literature of the Greek world from the late 4th to the late 2nd centuries BC.

There was a Hellenistic Age, starting from the death of Alexander the Great of Macedon in 323 BC and ending with Rome's absorption of Greece and the Greek East in the latter part of the 1st century BC.

So the term doesn't seem to be associated with Helen of Troy, but that makes one wonder if she is, in fact, a symbol herself.

Great questions!  

[rosemarykaye]

This morning Lynn Truss (who wrote Eats, Shoots and Leaves - she's a good writer and speaker) was doing a radio programme about language and science.  She was asking why scientists can't seem to put things into plain English.  She mentioned that in Ancient Greece things like maths and physics were taught through poetry (ie sung), and she said that Lucretius called poetry "the honeyed cup", because it sweetened the learning of all this difficult stuff.

Sorry, I know this isn't very relevant but I thought it was interesting!

Rosemary

[JudeS]

I hit a wrong key.  The Greek culture in its original form, before Alexander conquered all those lands was called HelleniC, not HelleniV.Thanks Ginny for your answer.
It's sort of a chicken or an egg question.  The name and persona Hellen or the Hellenic, or later Hellenistic, culture?Which came first?

Perhaps Helen is a symbol of all that is beautiful and all that is wiley, and all that is worth fighting for in the society of the time.  It sure shows that women were quite important in the Greek culture.

[BarbStAubrey]

It sure shows that women were quite important in the Greek culture.

As symbols!

Sorry, don't mean to offend it is just the issue of women's lack of freedom or expressing power unless it is bound by the opinions of men get me going real fast...

I do like the idea of Helen as more than a character but as a symbol for Greece - it makes this Epic like many Epics that explain the creation of their culture and people...

[JoanK]

"This figure  (of speech) was imitated from Homer by Virgil, Milton, and other writers of literary epics,"

So again, we see Homer as the beginning: this time  of a literary form. How much, in our culture, we owe to him.

[roshanarose]

Even today the Greeks don't call themselves Greeks.  The name of the country is still 'Ellas  (Hellas) as far as they are concerned.  The name of the language is "ta 'ellinika"; the word for a man of Greek nationality is "o 'Ellen/as"; a woman of Greek nationality is "ee 'Ellenida"; and the name Helen (which is very common still) is "ee 'Elenee".  All of these look so weird to me in English letters, but I think you get the idea.  The word "Greek" is not really used by the Greeks, as gamma (the Greek g) doesn't translate well.  If the word Greek is used it has to take on a rather awkward spelling, ie gkreka.  The words "Greek" and "Greeks" were given by the Romans. Ginny knows more about this topic than I.

The Ancient Greek words are either the same or similar,  some have slightly different morphology.

ginny - Good stuff about Hellen.  My Liddell and Scott has this to say about him: 

Hellen, son of Deucalion ; his descendants were the Hellenes, at first, dwellers in the Thessalian Hellas ; later the common name for the Greeks, opp. to Barbaroi.
Unfortunately, there is no entry for Helen.

Much earlier in these posts I set out some of the "posers" (as in questions) that Bettany Hughes concentrates on in her marvellous book "Helen of Troy".  She points out that there may have been two Helens - not referring to the phantom.  Hughes believes that one Helen was a goddess of an older cult; and secondly, one may have been the nemesis of Troy that Homer writes about.  Hughes also believes that Helen is "symbolic".   The way Homer writes about Helen is that she certainly is a real person?  "I am shameless" and "I want to go home" she says.  Or was it all just a fairy story using the original goddess as some sort of template? Schliemann was one individual who set out to prove that Agamemnon, Priam et al were actually real.  There is no real way to know if they existed or not.  Just makes studying it all the more fascinating.

[Gumtree]

Roshanarose:

Even today the Greeks don't call themselves Greeks

Hellenic appears to be the nomenclature preferred by those of Greek heritage even here in the wilds of the Antipodes. Only yesterday when speaking to my grocer who is of Greek extraction he mentioned his father had been moved to a care facility. When I enquired as to which he replied the "Hellenic Aged-Care Village."  -That village is situated on Hellenic Drive - and then there's the Hellenic Club etc etc. 

[Babi]

ROSEMARY, I would have been delighted to have a 'sweetened
cup' when I had to tackle high school physics. And think what
a challenge to the poet!

  I seem to have gotten ahead in my reading. I'll lie in wait...like that
lion.   

[roshanarose]

Barb - Bettany Hughes is at pains to point out that the women of the Bronze Age, particularly Sparta, had a great deal more freedom and say in matters of state than the women of Athens had in later times.  If any of you get a chance it is worthwhile to read "Lysistrata" by Aristophanes, Athen's leading satirist, which is about the Athenian women going on a "sex strike" in order to stop their menfolk from going to war (in this case the Peloponnesian War) at every opportunity.

[roshanarose]

Gumtree - Your account of the Greek grocer reminded me of when I was studying Greek at Uni.  I made the mistake of telling the Greek man at my favourite fish and chip shop that I was learning Greek.  Whenever I went to pick up my order of fish and chips he made me count from one to ten in Greek before he gave me my order.  As time went by and I continued ordering fish and chips from him he would test me on what I had learned in class.  He finished up teaching me from one to a hundred.  He was tougher than my lecturer.... Greeks can't help but teach !

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, I've read that Sparta was a place of more freedom for woman - and yes, the Amazons were warrior women however, even in Sparta women's occupation was at the loom. Granted I do not have first  hand knowledge of living in a monarchy, however, most monarchies of the western world today incorporate representation however, it is not governments alone that keep the 'power over' model going when it comes to women. Knowing how and that Greek philosophers determined men were superior to women chaffs - no wounds -

Yes, woman have always been important to every society - that fact is in various degrees easily set aside when power is bandied about. Just as today, women have more opportunity and freedom that could be similar to Spartan women but, we are still paid seventy seven cents to the dollar - when during war a women's body is violated - during the guerrilla warfare that exists in too many homes she is violated. And so, I do think it is patronizing of  us as women to suggest that the small freedoms for some women are cause to sit back and say - look there...we made it...or in the past some women were in better circumstances than others. Better is not good enough, especially when it is based on the silent gender one-up-men-ship

[JoanK]

ROSE:" The name of the country is still 'Ellas  (Hellas) as far as they are concerned."

Thank you. That was one of the words in the Sunday New York Times Crossword puzzle ("Greece to the Greeks").

In "A room of My Own", Virginia Woolf talks about societies ( the ancient Greeks, Shakespeare's England) where women had subserviant rolews, yet the literature is full of strong women. I forget her conclusion.

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh I know how easy it is to digress - and yes, there were strong women who flaunted the traditions of the day - but then do we say there are some strong men who flaunted the traditions to make their mark - and also, upon reading I find more often than not these strong women were from the upper class.

We also find many women today trying to show evidence of a society where women were the ruling class - there is talk of the society before the one Homer is telling us about - Crete - that because of paintings on the wall of women jumping over the bulls as the young men jump therefore, they were equal - well maybe but there is nothing else so far other than the paintings and then the tale goes - well look at Egypt - well just look at the life of the average Egyptian women - a few female rulers does not make society free from Misogyny, the World's oldest Prejudice

There are all sorts of statues and paintings of woman as symbols for a nation or freedom or justice but then a Dove is a symbol of peace - when there is a release of Doves for a national or community event that does not magically make peace and so the same with symbols of figures of women.

Most of us are already behind Penelope - she is weak and is being the 'good' women but our understanding and appreciation for Helen is straining our concept of what a 'good' girl/woman should be. We do not hear of Agamemnon offering one of his sons to the gods - no, it is his granddaughter - the sons can fight and if they perish so be it but they are actors in their own death.

Been reading like crazy Margaret George's Helen of Troy and it appears I must read the entire book to get to the end to  understand from this author's point of view why Helen was back in Sparta with Menelaus - the book is 639 pages and filled with one gripping event after the other - each chapter has me on the edge of my chair - she is some page turner of a writer - you can almost see how she gathered facts, little known facts and weaved them into this story based on what Greek [ or is it Hellas   ] writers have told us about Helen.

So far Margaret George has both Helen and Paris acting because of the interference of Aphrodite - seems that the night of Helen's marriage to Menelaus she called on two other goddesses and forgot Aphrodite and so her punishment was her bedroom life with Menelaus was without satisfaction - then he is not a passionate man although, she finds him with a slave girl he impregnated the day before he leaves for Crete for the funeral of his father. He protests with the usual - 'it was nothing' - but does sound sincere as if he reveres Helen more than he feels passion for her and please forgive him - Helen is numb - says nothing one way or the other and reminds him the ships are waiting for him - Paris is 9 years younger and she was immediately aroused when she saw him -  9 days of 'Hospitality' to Paris and his cousin took precedence over the trip to Crete and in that time sparks flashed - now she goes to the alter built for a pet snake and lo and behold who comes - you guessed it..

Then it turns out later, after their mock up marriage in the forest on the way to Troy and after they learn that Agamemnon is planning to attack and lots of other events that include skirmishes with an angry, then feisty King Priam and Hecuba, his parents, we learn Paris had an experience before he was accepted back in the folds of his family, while still living in the forest, three goddesses, Hera, Athena, and Aphrodite approach him along with Hermes and Paris had to choose the prettiest - each goddess promises him a power and Aphrodite promises him Helen.

And so this whole story is supposed to be because Aphrodite set the wheels in motion. Taking the goddess aspect away and looking at this from today's point of view - again, it sounds like desire and emotion took over - but then to look at this story as an allegory or myth and reading how Helen means the Sun ray or shining light, torch or shining one she could be, as Jude suggested, the symbol and name sake for the Greeks.and although, many Greek gods, they could be similar to the God of Abraham who holds the power of the universe. But back to women, even the goddesses are shown as manipulative that we take sides based on our learned concept of place. Helpful is OK - making things happen - ah maybe, according to who is benefiting but not the best of characteristic's.

Well the war is unfolding so back to my book, Helen of Troy and then I can get back to the Epic of Homer.

[PatH]

I agree, we don't have many clues to what Penelope is really like.  She has had to keep her own counsel for a long time now, and she is not giving anything away.

[roshanarose]

Barb - Hughes was not crowing about how well off women in Sparta were.  She was comparing how well off they were compared to Athenian women.  In fact they weren't "well-off" at all by our standards.  Spartan boys were taken from their mothers and homes when they were just eight for martial training.  Babies were exposed on hillsides if they had any deformity.  Young girls had their heads shaved, dressed as boys and sent to prospective husbands' tents.  The hub to be would come in, rape the girl, and then leave her and repeat the "act" until she got pregnant.  Never any affection.  The women grew up tough.  Perhaps that what Hughes meant, that they were better off because they were tougher.  Who knows?  Methinks, however, you would be hard-pressed to find many here who did not agree with you, and who had not experienced the "power" of men in some way in their everyday lives.

The reason that women, in general, think we are better off today is that in so many ways we are.  But the glass ceiling is still impenetrable for the majority of women in the workplace.  Many workplaces sack women first and casualisation is rife.  Have you ever heard of a casual Manager or CEO?  Man's hold through the centuries on women has always been about "power" martial or otherwise.  Ousting men from that lofty position is well-nigh impossible. 

Some women look back somewhat wistfully on Minoan/Spartan women and point out how free they were then.  Knossos didn't have any walls of defence and was a Thalassocracy, and looking at the beautiful frescoes discovered on Santorini and at Knossos, there is a joyous spirit.  These places have the mark of a peaceful society.  I have to look up my history books again and check if Knossos and Santorini were influenced by the earth goddess.  Personally, I think that when any woman, in whatever society, today finds it necessary to compare the role of women now and then, it is a bloody good indicator that things are not well in the world for us right now, and haven't been for a very very long time.  How often do you hear men comparing themselves to men in past cultures.  They don't because they have no need to. I know a lot of women who like the idea of the Amazons: ie kidnapping a man, keeping him imprisoned and breeding from him.  I don't like the idea at all.  I don't think role reversals are ever straight-forward.  We are not perfect either.  

Having said all that, Barb, I agree with most of what you say

[roshanarose]

This an excerpt from an article posted in Hazara News Pakistan.  It follows the theme of the previous discussion.

" I remember her exuberant face, the confidence with which she would walk up to the front of the class and express herself. I remember like it was yesterday. While the rest of us plagiarised content or came up with the laziest commentary for a class topic, she would tell the class of her genuine aspirations, her dreams, dreams about the great things she wanted to do with her life. Then. Then her life was cut short. She went home one day, tied the one end of a rope around the off-white ceiling fan and tearfully put on the noose of disappointment. She died and took to grave her aspirations, her dreams. dreams about the great things she had wanted to do with her life.

As a 10 year old kid, I cared more for the afternoon football match in the maidani than for the death of a classmate from the Language center where I learned English, as per the wishes of my parents. Friends told me that she had been sold of to someone fat-cat rich guy living in Saudi Arabia. They told that she had refused to be wed off to some fat-cat rich guy living in Saudi Arabia. They told me that she had been subject to torture and unspeakable physical punishment at the hands of her dear brother and her respectable father. They told me that there wasn’t going to be a police inquiry. And they told me that since she had committed suicide she didn’t qualify for a proper fatiha and proper burial. She was a woman, a daughter, a sister, a friend and she was dead."

I can direct you to the source if you are interested.

[BarbStAubrey]

I had to laugh - to get so worked up - but the problem, it really isn't funny and I cannot understand so many who go along or cannot see or pay no attention - ah so - we go on - however this Epic, for so much of continued history, is the beginning defining the role of/for women and the philosophy of the Greeks is still used to justify these concepts –

A bright spot this week – hearing some of the guests featured on TV marking the day of 'Women in the World'. suggest that awareness is creeping in with several suggesting the next forward movement in society, economics, science etc. will happen by using the talents and brainpower of 44% of the population which are the disengage women.

Thanks for clarifying Hughes - her book sounds like she is looking into Helen in a scholarly way where as Margaret George has created a bio that reads like an adventure story, a novel. Reading her book I have come to realize there are many conflicting stories and ideas about Helen as well as, other characters in this story, where and why the acted as they did –

To the question if it is all a myth, or did the characters live and if so, did they live at the time in history Homer is suggesting and did they carry out the experiences he outlines in his story - I'm on the fence, true or not I am very comfortable with the concept this is a myth that explains Greece. All this with gods and prophecy makes it for me more like a fantasy story.

What is confusing me is the number of examples in art and pottery design that are used to show how it must have been when most of what we have from archaeological digs are from a time period 400 and 500 years later. I know time moved very slowly as compared to how quickly change surrounds us - but 400 years ago Henry Hudson was last seen, the telescope was invented and the official version of the King James Bible was first printed. For that matter, Shakespeare was alive, writing and presenting his plays. I cannot imagine that we would use examples of dress and culture from today or even from 1811 to bring to life 1611 - do we know - was life in Sparta or Troy or Ithaca anything like the examples of figures on the ancient pottery held in museums...are there wall paintings depicting people from the time in history that this Epic is telling us about...

Also, the ships used to transport the soldiers is the same kind of ship I have to assume Paris and Helen used to made their escape - there are many pictures of these ships with large sails and rows of rowers - one thing I do not see is any privacy - I do know that the old sailing ships of the sixteenth century it was over the side or off the bow since the ships captain's quarters were usually at the stern but these ships of ancient Greece show no cabins at all - I am thinking our viewpoint of modesty and proper deportment may be more colored than we realize by Victorian values that were not the view folks held earlier than the eighteenth century.

[JoanK]

BARB: I don't blame you for getting worked up -- we need women to get worked up, and not just except things as they are. So good for you.

I realize that I haven't realized (how's that for a sentance) how unique Homer is -- I almost want to say isolated. We are used to there being a ton of books written in any period. But (correct me if I'm wrong) Homer is IT, as far as the century in which he wrote. The other Greek writings were later, and heavily influenced by Homer.

Suppose only ONE book survived to represent the 20th century!! What would you want it to be to give an accurate picture of life then (now)? Suppose it was a Sci-Fi thriller? What would historians millenia from now think of us? Should we assume that Homer accurately portrays life when he wrote/orated?

[roshanarose]

I know we should be discussing the next book of the Odyssey (sigh) but Bronze Age Greece is so fascinating I can't leave it alone!  I also feel as though I am dominating the board, that is in no way my aim.  Maybe the next items will help people actually "see" and "feel" how it was in the Bronze Age for women and men as far as gender roles were concerned.  

We have established (although not fully) that there could have been a matrilineal system in place in the Bronze Age.  This would seem to be particularly the case in Crete.  Once again it is hard to prove that this system did exist, but there are some clues in an a very good article I just found.

NOTE: Much of the following discussion is drawn from Kenneth Atchity and Elizabeth Wayland Barber (see BIBLIOGRAPHY) from link below.

"....However, for the "myth" of matriarchy to have had some validity, and in order for a Classical Greek theatre audience to accept the fact that women such as Helen, Clytemnestra, Antigone, Iphigenia, Hecuba, Andromache, Penelope, Medea, Alcestis, and Elektra (fully half of all extant 5th century plays have powerful women in leading roles) could indeed threaten patriarchal social order or alter the course of history, it must have had some basis in historical reality. The "historical" situation of the majority of the myths and legends is the Bronze Age, during or near the end of the Minoan civilization, and the "reality" may have been not matriarchy per se but rather matriliny.

A common feature of patriarchal and patrilineal cultures is "virilocality" (or patrilocality), which means that when a man and woman marry, the wife goes to live at her husband's family's residence. A distinguishing feature of matrilineal cultures is "uxorilocality" (or matrilocality), which means that the husband goes to live at his wife's family's residence.

Evidence of uxorilocality can be found in various myths and legends which are "historically" situated in the Bronze Age. For example, in the well-known story of Helen, when Menelaos first marries her, he travels to live with her in Sparta where he rules as king, even though Helen has two worthy brothers, Kastor and Polydeukes (Castor and Pollux). Menelaos attains the kingship of Sparta through his marriage to Helen who carries the bloodline of the Lakedaimonian throne.

When Helen is abducted by Paris and taken off to Troy, Menelaos, his position as king thereby made insecure, makes every effort to get her back, enlisting the help of all Greece. When during the course of the siege of Troy Paris and Menelaos agree to fight in single combat, the prize is not only Helen but "all her possessions." Later, after Helen's death, it is her daughter, Hermione, and not one of Menelaos' sons, who becomes the next ruler of Sparta.

Helen was the daughter of Leda who was ostensibly married to Tyndareus. Tyndareus, however, was not the father of Helen. Later tellers of the story, no doubt uncomfortable with Leda's evident promiscuousness and lack of adherence to patriarchal laws of male inheritance, interpolated the myth of Leda's seduction by Zeus as a more satisfactory explanation of her behaviour.

Leda's case is by no means unique. Bronze Age myths and legends are filled with important children whose mother is named but not their father. These children obviously had a human father, and one who wasn't necessarily the husband of their mother, but when the stories were retold this affront to patriarchal sensibilities was softened with the explanation that each child was in fact fathered by a god......"

If you do decide to visit this site there are several pix of frescoes from Crete and Santorini.  They probably pre-date Helen though, so it is still difficult to say what type of clothing she wore.  However, I did read somewhere (I have read so much on this subject that I have lost track)that women's fashions in the Bronze Age remained the same for generations.  A lot different to today

http://witcombe.sbc.edu/snakegoddess/minoanwomen.html

Ginny : Maybe this helps explain why Helen went back to Menelaus.  She didn't go back to him so much, as she went back to her inheritance.  Menelaus may have just been her consort while she was absent from Sparta.  He could never become king while Helen, Hermione and the twins' progeny lived.

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, that could be part of what happened if we can use Margaret George's bio/novel to help light our path - when Helen learns of the plan to attack she learns her mother had killed herself because of her running off with Paris and, since Helen was no longer in Sparta Menelaus is no longer the king. - Her father is the active King again.

roshanarose - I know, it is easy to think that what we post is the cause for folks to take a break therefore we feel we are dominating - all I can say it is exciting to read the many thoughts and ideas - For as many readers that have posted there are as many ideas to mull over and get our heads wrapped around the points they post - I can hear your excitement as you share what you love where as, I gravitate to discovering and sorting out what I believe while I read any book. The big plus is having others who are looking at the story from a different point of view share which just makes it more exciting with that many more ideas to sift through and adjust what we value. With this story there is much to keep different opinions alive and so, I doubt we will have a consensus on some issues.

To your post - my head scratcher is, if women were equal to men in Crete it would be neat to know what happened that prompted the kind of protection of progeny that had women isolated, leaving the quarters of their father's house to the women's quarters of the chosen husband's house -

My reading suggests that the purity of women was important to each tribe during this time when families stayed with their own kind. That seems to be the common explanation for this protection of women and later, her seeds so to speak were the honor of the family and tribe. I read all this within the first week of our reading the Odyssey and it never dawned on me to save the links - the information from several sites was trying to say, it was not to cage women as it was to keep them pure and protect the birth of future children since it was important children's progeny was traceable to the tribe through the husband.

Since then I've read a site that makes a very good point - that men had children with many women - slaves, concubines, goddesses, you name it - so what was this all about that a woman, called wife had to be proven pure so that her life and opportunities were curtailed including her education. Those who expected women to remain sexually pure effectively gained control over them and are vilifying one-half of the population for following our very nature.

Men marrying young girls is a way to keep inexperienced girls from an equal exchange so there is no expectation by the girl/women. The question becomes; how did sexual purity tie into women's morality, is sexual purity her most important measurement of her worth as a human being...why - what happened that all of a sudden tribes of people expected women to measure their worth as a wife by her protected closeted existence for the purpose of proving her purity.  

I guess I am thinking that why would Crete be that different during that time in history - there were most likely bands of families that were tribes of people - And for one, or a couple of tribes living on Crete to have such a different concept of the progeny of their off springs - unless, because Crete was a small enough Island there was a belief that only men from Crete could be the fathers so that it was  un-necessary to keep the women separate and, to include women as equal owners of property since the wealth of every family regardless of gender birth order was required for the continuation of the community.

If it was a matriarchal society that progeny was accountable to the women that why and how was there such a reversal among not only the Greeks but other tribes and people from other parts of the known world.

I wonder if the concept of war and having warriors is when all this started - warriors trained and were separated from family so that during separation they may have thought more security to assure them their women were faithful suggested the concept of cloistered protection.

Surmise is all we can do and share the information we find written by scholars who have been knee deep in Ancient Greek History. I do not know how the Bible compares in time line to Homer however, reading the Red Tent that book also waxed poetic about a respect for women and her physical nature that was supposed to have existed before the time of Ruth.

This all sounds good except why the big switch - Most change we hear took hundreds of years - how many hundreds of years before Homer are we talking about that women were free and as equal as Helen represents – so that while the story was an oral Epic men listening would be shaking their heads back and forth murmuring, – ‘No, we do not want that - we do not approve of Helen – story teller, be sure she is the disgraceful one in this story and Penelope is rescued for being so faithful battling to stay pure to Odysseus'.

As the fun piece in the New York Times suggested new names for the classics - the suggestion for Odyssey was something like, Don' t Mess with the Vet's Wife. Penelope, the Vet's wife cannot protect herself and Odysseus' wealth, her only act of self-protection to remain in her home and to live as she chooses is to fain an exercise in weaving a shroud - even her son keeps her in the dark as he matures and goes about his father's business - hmmm is this a 100th monkey coincidence to Mary's experience when her son matures...

Well it looks like we go around and around on this point and maybe there will be more clarity as the story unfolds, but my guess is that those [interesting they are all men] who translated the story were not necessarily looking at it from the women's prospective and those women who have taken on ancient Greece scholarship, few are in the mainstream with their findings - and the findings that do break the surface I feel are for the most part still 'trying' to prove women are worthy...

[Babi]

  I am greatly surprised to learn that Menelaos was not the king in his
own right, but purely because of his marriage to Helen.  I've never come
across this before.  It certainly answers all those questions as to why
he 'accepts' Helen back home, quite aside from the fact that she was
the daughter of Zeus.

[ginny]

I think it's great to have all these interesting side bits revealed and I think it's legitimate to look at the role of women in the Odyssey and specifically how Homer portrayed them. I've been off with major computer problems in the storm still not resolved and am typing on a 9 inch laptop with great difficulty.

It was Agamemnon's daughter that he sacrificed, I think?

I really think Menelaus's pride was wounded and he wanted her back. After all look what Achilles did when Menelaus took his own prize, Briseis. I think it was nothing but male hubris, to which the others could relate. .

On this one:


A common feature of patriarchal and patrilineal cultures is "virilocality" (or patrilocality), which means that when a man and woman marry, the wife goes to live at her husband's family's residence. A distinguishing feature of matrilineal cultures is "uxorilocality" (or matrilocality), which means that the husband goes to live at his wife's family's residence.

Penelope certainly breaks this mold, doesn't she? She's not living with her powerful father in his household, she's living with the King Odysseus, the  Man of Sorrow and Pain (Lombardo says this a million times) and nobody seems to think it odd. They think it odd when she wants to turn to Laertes, which I would think would be normal. If she needs somebody to give her away again, she can return to her own father and he will, but the kingdom is not going with her, it's not his to distribute and it's the kingdom they want.

If she were the Queen and the male were not important she could say get out, and not resort to subterfuge, the reaction of Nestor shows they would support her, she doesn't. She thinks about it, she thinks about going to Laertes when T may be in danger, (note, not her own father) and is talked out of it.

I think also that historical fiction (this is my own and admittedly prejudiced point of view) is often inaccurate. If it were not, it would  be non fiction. I personally never take anything historical fiction, (even tho it brings great moments to life splendidly and makes one feel one is there) as fact. I don't care how well it's researched and that, unfortunately, includes McCullough and Harris.

I know it was a man's world and that the fate of women was much improved in the Roman era. The only reference to Greek monarchies I can find is that after the dark ages there is documentation in the Hellenistic Age.

I am not seeing anything in my sources  other than kingdoms ruled by kings. That doesn't mean new theories abound about the line of women, but the world of the ancients was a man's world, and for sure our Epic here is about Odysseus, Ulysses. All three big epics, the Iliad, the Odyssey and the Aeneid are about men. The women are incidental.

The OCCL says  "Despite the appearance of democracy the fact remains that the cities were contained within kingdoms that were absolute monarchies, their independence ultimately  depended on the will of the King. Cities often called on the help of the king in an attempt  to avoid war, or indeed a king might interfere to help prevent one....." and on and on, but nothing about women or a matriarchal society.

I don't know enough  about the history of ancient Greece. It appears nobody knows much till the age of Alexander. What we have is Homer. A very ancient Greek civilization, the Mycenean, for instance, is only known thru myth and legend. But the figures mentioned were male. The pottery is pretty much male oriented,  but Helen appears in countless pottery causing men to go to war.  Mycenae was "founded by Perseus."  I don't think anybody knows. There may be tons of theories, but if Helen were all so powerful, all she had to do was walk away, and she didn't. And note in Troy there was a patriarchal dynasty with Priam and Hector.  Maybe this is the half god thing  in Helen's case, but then so was Achilles. And so was Aeneas.

It's a myth, going back to the first Greek Bronze Age, called  Helladic, the  Mycenaean period beginning 1600 BC. We're lucky to have Julius Caesar's 54 BC remarks on the Britons painting themselves blue hunched over a fire, much less something from 800 BC.

So to ME the Odyssey is a time machine, an incredible look back into history, a time nobody really knows about , shrouded in mist and fantasy, and  Homer is one of our few windows. Penelope is not at her father's home she's at the King, Odysseus's home,  and  some things we may never know. The nice thing is that through our reading and adjunct reading  we can form our own opinions.  And we're entitled to them. Even tho the Odyssey itself is  fiction (is it?) it shines a light on something nobody else has or does.

So now we're moving on to 5, and it appears T is going to scarper. We're not going to see him again for a long time. Where is HE going? Home?

And NOW we get to the MAN, Odysseus, and he's living up to his name the man of constant sorrow, man o man has he got problems. hahaha  



He's stuck with Calpyso, another woman, but he's getting to leave! However Poseidon is back from  Ethiopia, and he sees the man almost to Phaeacia...can't have that.

Have we determined why Poseidon hates him so? I am sorry if we have and I forgot.  And now it's getting good, with the "help" of the gods? he ends up in 6 at the Cyclops.

What do you think while we're reading 5 about the end of Book IV? Here T has been off hearing about other sons avenging their fathers, and the difficulty of leaving his home (HIS home) unprotected for a long time, and he's got news, I say he's going back, but look what awaits him there!

Noeman starts it out, he's loaned T his ship. He needs it.  Boy Antinous is right on it, he reminds me of some of these Top Chefs, are you sure you wanted him to have it?

Oh yes, I gave it freely. So he leaves, having said Mentor went too. So Antinous is filled "with rage was his black heart wholly filled, and his eyes were like blazing fire." (Murray)

(I've gotten to where I like Murray, for some reason his measured literal translation appeals to me.)

What's Antinous' s beef? What's his real beef? Why now is he planning to eliminate the male heir?

[Gumtree]

Have we determined why Poseidon hates him so?

Here it is Ginny -It's early on in Book I - Poseidon hates Odysseus because O had blinded the Cyclops, Polyphemus who was the son of Thoosa who in turn was the daughter of Poseidon by Phorcys (she was a lesser sea divinity).  So it appears that Polyphemus was Poseidon's grandson so no wonder he's feeling a little aggro toward O for blinding him and

For that, to be sure, earth-shaking Poseidon has not
Killed Odysseus but does make him wander far from his homeland
(Cook Bk I : 74/5)

Must say I agree with your take on historical fiction - I never take it all as fact but as you say the fiction can bring the people and the period to life in a way that straight history does not. When I want to learn about history, I read the historians.


I must say I'm not enamoured of the Fagles rendering which I bought on impulse a week or so ago. Much prefer the more restrained and perhaps more elegant Cook translation.  Cook dates from 1967 so the language isn't really old, old and to me it reads fluently whereas sometimes a word or phrase in Fagles will really jar on my mind.

Now on to read Book V


....

[rosemarykaye]

I am only just catching up at the end of the week.

I think it was Barb who said that kings, etc had to keep their much younger wives "pure" and cloistered.  It struck me that until very recently indeed things were still the same in the monarchy here.  Diana was chosen to marry Charles because all of his other girlfriends were not virgins - Diana was very young and naive, so was seen as prime consort material; not only was she "pure", she was also unlikely to have any opinions of her own, and - as she subsequently discovered - she was supposed to accept that her husband would continue his longstanding relationship with his mistress.

As we all know, this marriage was the one that blew the old school royals apart.  Diana rebelled and strayed, Charles was found out, and it all ended in disaster.  It changed the way the royals do things - Camilla was eventually accepted and is now quite popular, and now we are about to see the wedding of William and Kate, who have been openly cohabiting for some time.

Barb, I think you also mentioned that the few women who "broke the mould", as they say, were almost invariably upper class.  This is of course still frequently the case today - only upper class women had/have the money, freedom, etc to do as they like.  Virginia Woolf was wealthy, and also came from the sort of Bohemian family where "non-conformist" behaviour would have been accepted.  Most women were until recently kept in a continuous state of pregnancy/nursing until they were so worn down that they would never have had the energy to fight back - only the wealthy had childcare and domestic help enough to allow them to do something else.  It is not only about money but attitudes - even if my grandmothers and my mother had had money, they would still have been totally constrained by what society expected them to do.  My mother still thinks a woman should be grateful that her husband has a job and doesn't drink/abuse her.

Sorry, I digress.  Will stagger down from my soapbox and make the tea   

Rosemary

[JudeS]

I think we have to look at these works of Homer in context. In my opinion , if he were alive today, he would be making blockbuster, acton filled movies.. In one book I read "Homer is always complaining that people are always askimg me for something new.") He is a superb entertainer and story teller.
But others of the 6th cent.BC were had different ideas of the Gods and of their society.  Theognis (or Xenophanes) writes about the Gods:
"The Aethiop's gods are black,snub-nosed.
Blue-eyed,red haired the Thracians"
and in another verse:
Could horses, oxen,lions hold
The tools to paint and carve like men,
They'd make the gods in their own mould
Gods would be oxen and horses then.
Another poet,Theognis, complains in bitter elegiacs that cross breeding between rich and poor is ruining the community and the lower orders no longer know their place. He writes of his OWN FEELINGS. He is not telling someone elses story as Homer  is:

[JudeS]

The post site froze up again. Anyhow here is Theognis's poem (partial of course)
I heard the crane cry unto the men his greeting,
To tell them it was time to drive the plough;
Ah,friend! he set my sorry-heart a-beating,
For others have my fertile acres now.

I got the idea for this post from reading the two books I bought for fifty cents each.
"Ancient Greek Literature in its Living Context" and "Greek and Roman Writers"
The ideas about Homer are my own..

[roshanarose]

I don't recall saying anywhere that the men and women of Crete were equal, or that it was a matriarchy

What the article and site suggested (with Ancient Histiory one can only ever, suggest), was that the women played a major part in the religion.  imho this ties in with Knossos having no need for a wall of defense.  If Knossos did have women playing a major role in their religion, it is possible that they are still worshipping the Earth Mother, Gaia or at least some remnants of the Mother Goddess.  The figurines of the snake goddesses according to Bettany Hughes are imports from Egypt, the women have well-developed bare breasts suggesting lactation, and some have a snake wrapped around their thighs or stomachs.   The snake can be a symbol of sexuality.  Maybe they are representative of fertility?  As I said Knossos has a very peaceable air.   The people around the palace were farmers and as far as I can tell had never gone to war.  Things changed when the Mycenaeans arrived on the scene.   Please read again my comments and check out the site I gave to clear up any misunderstandings.

Barb:   "I wonder if the concept of war and having warriors is when all this started - warriors trained and were separated from family so that during separation they may have thought more security to assure them their women were faithful suggested the concept of cloistered protection."  This is a good point.  Earlier on I gave support to the notion of the Earth Goddess (pre territorial wars) and The Sky God (advent of war and warriors).  

The "concept" of war maybe only have been introduced into Crete after the Mycenaeans arrived.  I am talking about war on land here.  Also, please note, what I have quoted only refers to the palace of Knossos of Crete and not other parts.  Someone else pointed out that this dominance of women in religion would only apply to women of a certain class, ie the aristocracy.  The word aristocracy in Greek means the "power of the best/bravest". Hoi Polloi literally means "The Many".


There is something in the Iliad I am confused about.  Is there a part that mentions Helen and Paris after leaving Sparta going on a long cruise, (6-7 years) including Egypt, before they arrive in Troy?    

[JoanK]

Jude: very interesting. What are the date3s of the poets you cite?

Yes, as I said above, we get all our ideas of early Greece (as opposed to the later period rich in writing) from one source. This has to bias them.

I love the use of the crane in the poem above. Clearly, the cranes return in the Spring, and humans react to them as people do to the Spring return of birds everywhere. It  makes me feel very close to the Greeks.

[JoanK]

Let's dip our toes into Chapter 5 tomorrow, and meet Odysseus at last. But first, we have Hermes, who has GOLDEN sandals (compared to Athena's silver ones. Hmmmph.

[JoanK]

And here he is: hermes (Mercury) himself, in everyones favorite statue:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TZ4zYEBSw1I/SosZlc2e5UI/AAAAAAAAKkU/r638Oj2HxDw/s400/caduceus.jpg&imgrefurl=http://publicdomainclip-art.blogspot.com/2009/08/winged-mercury-caduceus.html&h=400&w=232&sz=15&tbnid=xZ3trBP55jPc-M:&tbnh=124&tbnw=72&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwinged%2Bmercury&zoom=1&q=winged+mercury&hl=en&usg=__7R1oifS7sIu1YFG536AHSPrGs6E=&sa=X&ei=ktt6Td7DGI2QsAOsyZ0i&sqi=2&ved=0CCgQ9QEwAw

[PatH]

Jude, I love your notion that Homer would now be making blockbuster action flics.  Maybe he could have made something good of "Troy".

Cranes: you and JoanK mention them, which gives me a flimsy excuse (illustration that cranes were a common figure)  to plug in a favorite bit from Lombardo's translation of Iliad, beginning of chapter 3:

Two armies,
The troops in divisions
Under their commanders,

The Trojans advancing across the plain

Like cranes beating their metallic wings
In the stormy sky at winter's onset,
Unspeakable rain at their backs, their necks stretched
Toward Oceanic streams and down to strafe the brown Pygmy race,
Bringing strife and bloodshed from the sky at dawn,

While the Greeks moved forward in silence,
Their breath curling in angry plumes
That acknowledged their pledges to die for each other.

[JoanK]

OK, let's start Book 5 on Monday. bring your binoculars: I have some bird identification for you.

[Mippy]

    to you JoanK  on birdwatching!   Right on!   
Away for a couple of days, but will look in Monday.

[ginny]

Oh man that's good writing and a good translation too, thank you for that JoanK!

While the Greeks moved forward in silence,
Their breath curling in angry plumes
That acknowledged their pledges to die for each other.

Gum, thank you so much. I don't know why I can't recall that, I must have a Poseidon block or something!  

I found your thoughts on Cook very interesting, as we go let's compare Murray and Cook, both doing the literal thing. You find Cook more elegant than Fagles,  I must look up Cook, especially now that I have reread your post and find that he's not 1600 (unless 1967 was 1600, it seems like it sometimes aghhahaa)

Yeah that would do it, I think. I love that he's been off in Ethiopia and returns to see something he does not want to see. I love the idea here of gods constantly interfering with  or influencing the lives of man. Seems to be a yin and yang, one god opposes, the other supports. So it ends up being a battle between them with man as the pawn.

Roshanarose: I get it!  Loved the hoi polloi thing! On this one: There is something in the Iliad I am confused about.  Is there a part that mentions Helen and Paris after leaving Sparta going on a long cruise, (6-7 years) including Egypt, before they arrive in Troy?

I thought that was in the Odyssey, I'm not remembering it in the Iliad, but since I seem to keep forgetting why Poseidon was such an antagonist, hahaha, I'm not the best source. Isn't it funny what you remember and what you don't? I wonder when we get through here if we might each say what we think we'll remember from the Odyssey.

I came in to say how amazing it is when you read something, that it seems  references to it pop up everywhere.

I'm reading a bunch of new books and I must somehow remember to keep some sort of marker handy because right in the middle of one of them came the phrase "protean" and I did not understand what was meant. I know OUR Proteus but the reference was in a decidedly 2010 book and time. Turns out protean means "of or resembling Proteus in having a varied nature or ability to assume different forms. 2. : displaying great diversity or variety : versatile ..."

I did not know that. I suspect it was Annie Prolux's Bird Cloud  but am not sure, it's not indexed, but she's got a lot of Latin and references to the classics in it, including the Gracchi, so it's probably her. If you can index and search in an e book that would be a marvelous tool for a book discussion, but in paper unless you've marked it, you're sunk.

Jude, that Ancient Greek Literature in its Living Context is a treasure, isn't it? I can't get over the art. I am so glad you found it and mentioned it here. I  hope my computer ability to do art comes back before this is over because he's got so many pieces I've never seen.  I also really like the chapter The Scholar Poets of Alexandria, and the stuff about Orestes. I did not realize so much had been written on him and his journey to avenge his father, he's huge. Aeschylus, Euripides, it's amazing. We don't hear much about him today, or I don't, I can't recall the last time anybody mentioned Orestes to me.

I've been looking forward to meeting our hero Odysseus at last. Can we think of any modern book  which delays the appearance of the hero till the 5th chapter? Would the modern reader stand for it? I have read several times that modern editors give a new book about a page and a half, if the reader is not totally caught in that time, they throw it out. Would Homer have made it in 2011, do you think?

Actually in the Murray, his introduction is pretty powerful. When you add to all that plot outlined the fact that the people hearing about it would have been totally interested, as much as we may be interested in the wedding of Prince William or his mother) you can see why it was a hit.

We've not addressed this question from the Temple U site:

144-152 T is persuaded to stay in Sparta. The scene changes to Ithaca where the suitors plot to ambush T. en route home. Penelope is upset, but Athena cheers her with a dream. The ambush is laid. How many days are we into the story at this point? Try to keep track of this. We won't be seeing T again for a while.

Anybody have any idea of the time frame here? I'm still trying to figure out why the inclusion of Proteus occurred. For the predictions? OR?

Anybody have any thoughts on that one? In glancing back over the questions at Temple, however, it does look as if we've done a great job so far, and to me, at least, they looked totally daunting initially, so I say hooray! And on to Calypso. Unlike Aeneas, it appears Odysseus has not particularly enjoyed his stay with this femme fatale.

Have no illustrations whatsoever on Calypso, so am off to see what I can find. What a wonderful prospect for this 2011 spring day: Book V of the Odyssey! Better than Harry Potter!