Author Topic: Classics Book Club, The  (Read 493886 times)

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #920 on: March 14, 2011, 09:54:19 PM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.



Now reading:


March 14---Book V:  Odysseus, Calypso, and Hermes  



A Fantastic Cave Landscape with Odysseus & Calypso
Jan Breughel the Elder (painted with Hendrick de Clerck)
c. 1612



Calypso offers Odysseus a chest
Lucanian red figure hydria
c. 450 BC
Museo Nazionale, Naples


 
Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny 




Hermes' message to Calypso
Engraving and etching on paper
John Flaxman
1805
Tate Gallery


Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
Map of the  Voyages of Odysseus
Map of Voyages in order
Map of Stops Numbered
Our Map Showing Place Names in the Odyssey



Hermes visits Calypso and Odysseus
Etching
Hubert Maurer (1738-1818)




A modern Calypso:
Tia Dalma aka Calypso, goddess of the sea
The Pirates of the Caribbean, At World's End
2007

hi roshanarose - haven't found anything particular about the cormorants although it is a large bird and that may fit - I have another book of symbols in my library if I can find it - it is a thicker book and may have something to say - since this is a sea bird I wonder if it is a messenger of direction of something

I am seeing these birds give a message to those listening to the story that was probably common then and a struggle for  us now - like when we hear in a story the geese are honking overhead and the frogs are making sounds or flies are getting into our mouth we know that means Spring where as if the geese or high overhead that usually means fall  - we do not have to have the poet or author say more - we know what that means - and so I am thinking these birds and trees are saying more than the name of the bird or tree.

I even wonder if the translators got all the details that would be part of the message - for all of you who know this ancient Greek how about a look at the entire bit of one of the phrases and see if the birds are described with more than the proper Greek word.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #921 on: March 14, 2011, 10:20:55 PM »
Hahaha -we just have to make things difficult don't we - right on the internet are some of the answers about cormorants

Conmorant Symbolism

CORMORANT: At sea, or on the inland lakes, they make a terrible havoc. From the greatest height they drop down upon the object of pursuit, dive after it with the rapidity of a dart, and with an almost unerring certainty, seize the victim. Then emerging, with the fish across the bill, with a kind of twirl, throw it up into the air and dexterously catching it head foremost, swallow it whole.

From Cliff notes:
Quote
Popping up in mythical tales, cormorants are medium to large-sized black or predominantly dark seabirds. The long-necked birds live along coasts in trees or on cliffs and make their nests in colonies. Cormorants dive into the water to catch fish, eels, and sea snakes.

Many cultures consider cormorants a symbol of nobility and indulgence. In more recent history, the cormorant is considered a good luck charm for fishermen, or a talisman that will bring a fisherman a bountiful catch.

In China and Japan, humans once exploited the fishing skills of the cormorant by tying a snare to the bird's throat and sending it to sea. The snare prevented the bird from swallowing fish, and when the bird returned to the fisherman's boat, the fisherman removed the fish and kept it.

Some specific stories of cormorants in literature include

    * In the Greek tale of Ulysses, after a storm broke the mast of Ulysses' raft, a sea nymph disguised herself as a cormorant and handed Ulysses a girdle to keep him afloat while he swam to shore.
    * In Norwegian myths and folklore, three cormorants flying together are said to be carrying messages and warnings from the dead. In northern Norway, cormorants are considered to be good luck when they gather in a village. Norwegian myth also states that people who die at sea can visit their former homes in the form of a cormorant.
    * In Polynesian mythology, Maru-tuahu used feathers to make himself "as handsome as the crested cormorant" when both young daughters of Te Whatu declared their desires to marry him.
    * In Ireland and some other places, seeing a cormorant perched atop a church steeple is a warning of bad luck to come.
    * In England, the mythical "Liver Bird," the symbol of the city of Liverpool, is thought to be a cross between a cormorant and an eagle.

The cormorant is also a symbol of greed and deception in John Milton's epic poem, Paradise Lost, as the form Satan took to disguise himself to enter Eden before tempting Eve.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #922 on: March 14, 2011, 10:46:38 PM »
In Heraldry the TERN: Also known as the graceful gull, the Tern are harbingers of Spring and the hopes of a bountiful harvest, and have been used to represent one who is always optimistic. Also called the swallow of the sea

I used to have a curiosity about sea birds and I am remembering the Tern has a very long lifespan - like 20 years if I remember correctly.

Ok here is a photo and under it the information is the tern can live up to 30 years - wow
photo Tern
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #923 on: March 14, 2011, 11:12:08 PM »
 Jude yes, what a help to have some names and dates - I know I am hogging up this site but I missed this discussion and I love the research that y'all and this story suggests at every tern - yes, yes, yes - Sappho - found it - I knew I had a book with excerpts of her poetry - that is all that remains. It is said there were nine books of lyrics - none of the music survived and only one complete poem - all the rest are fragments. My book "If not, Winter" includes only fragments.

From the fragments the name of Troy is Ilios and Kalliope first of the nine Muses, whose name means "beautiful-voiced."

The book I have has the Greek on one side and the English translation on the other - I am sorry I do not have any knowledge of Greek nor do I know how to write it on the computer or I would share some of this in Greek for those of you who do know and read Greek. The translations is edited by Eva-Maria Voigt, Amsterdam, 1971  with further translations by  Anne Carson from Canada.

Here is one that includes the bird...

night

girls
all night long
might sing of the love between you and the bride
            with violets in her lap

wake! and go call
the young men so that
no more than the bird with piercing voice
            shall we sleep


Interesting here is a fragment that includes the swallow...

why does Pandion's daughter
                                        O Eirana
                                                    the swallow


aha - "Pandion, king of Athens, whose tragic daughters, Philomela and Procne were metamorphosized into a nightingale and a swallow, respectively. The story is that Philomela sister Procne was married to Tereus, King of Thrace, but Tereus wanted and was possessed with Philomela. Tereus told Pandion that Procne was dead (a lie) and Pandion offered him Philomela as his new wife.

Philomela in the mean time did not want Tereus, and Tereus resorted to rape. To hide what he had done, he hid Philomela and cut out her tongue. Philomela managed to tell her story by weaving it into a piece of embroidery and sent it to Procne. Procne killed her son, Itys, and served his flesh to Tereus. The sisters fled from the palace and Pandion pursued, but the gods intervened and the tragedy ended. The gods changed Procne into a nightingale and Philomela into a swallow. Tereus became a hoopoe."

EIRENE --- EIRHNH -  "The goddess of peace and of the season of spring (eiar, eiarinos). Late spring was the usual campaign season in Greece when peace was most at risk. Eirene was one of three Horai, goddesses of the seasons and the keepers of the gates of heaven.

The figure of Eirene or Pax occurs only on coins, and she is there represented as a youthful female, holding in her left arm a cornucopia and in her right hand an olive branch or the staff of Hermes. Sometimes also she appears in the act of burning a pile of arms, or carrying corn-ears in her hand or upon her head. A daughter of Poseidon and Melanthea, from whom the island of Calauria was, in early times, called Eirene"

And so does the swallow have something to do with Peace do you think?
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JudeS

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #924 on: March 14, 2011, 11:50:29 PM »
While in China in 2000 we went on a side trip, at night, to watch the Chinese fisherman using their cormorants for fishing.
Each man has two birds with a cord around its neck.  The bird dives, catches a fish and the ring around its neck is tightened.  The bird returns to the raft which is lit by lanterns, disgorges its fish and dives again. This continues till the fishermen has enough fish. He then lets the cormorants free fish:i.e. the bird gets to eat his catches until he or she is full.
The birds are considered members of the family and all have their own names to which they answer as a dog might. They are trained by the fishermen and his "older"birds  soon after they are hatched. It takes about five months to train each bird.  When they die (at about twenty-twenty five) they are given a serious funeral and buried , often with a bottle of wine or whiskey.
In relation to our story these facts might be interesting: The cormorant's scientific genus name is latinized from the Ancient Greek from "phelakus"(bald) and "korax" (raven). Cormorant is a contraction derived from Latin "corvus marinus" or sea raven. However these birds are not related to ravens but to Pelicans.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #925 on: March 14, 2011, 11:55:16 PM »
Jude I have heard of the fishing in China with these birds - amazing and oh to have seen them - oh Jude how absolutely magical - where in China were you when you saw the birds fishing - on what river where  you - were you with a group or just you and your travel companion... I know off the subject but oh Jude how magical - fill us in please with the wonder of it all.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

kidsal

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #926 on: March 15, 2011, 01:19:27 AM »
Ginny:  Now I see you are getting the Greek from Loeb.  I don't have it -- but just ordered the first few chapters from Amazon.

bookad

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #927 on: March 15, 2011, 04:14:58 AM »
Sandyrose--just finished reading your posts from you Rieutranslation, so interesting the subtle differences from my Rieu(father) translation...can just see the younger Rieu sitting among his family during the war while his father read to them from his translations of Homer; and this instilling him the interest to pursue the same and follow in his dad's footsteps
Deb
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #928 on: March 15, 2011, 08:49:57 AM »
Sally, thank you for getting our days straight, so we're in the 31st day of our adventure in their time! Now why is this important, I wonder? I love those Temple questions.

What a beautiful passage you've put in as well. Pope does write well but honestly to understand what's being said, you can't beat Lombardo. He was lyric on the raft, I'm going to find a quiet hour today and reread him and draw it.

SandyRose, thank you for the Rieu,  I didn't catch until Deb did there are two, father and son, I absolutely love that. I agree with Roshanarose, all tribute to anybody who can translate it! hahaha Love it, so glad to see you, too!

Roshanarose, thank you for that translation!  So, the word can mean cormorant, so maybe, JoanK, it was Homer himself who was misled, and his blindness did not help in  his description of the habit of this bird? Or maybe it was a bird,  since Greece kept no birding records,  which no longer exists? OR?

Thank you Barbara for those backgrounds. I think you are right and that the birds here are symbolic. I think the issue is the feeding habits of the cormorant, versus the other swooping sea birds. The cormorant,  as you and Jude have said,  floatson the water and dives rather than skims (? maybe, I'm not a birder),  over the water looking and then swooping (do I have that right JoanK and PatH?) which really (is it?) is how Homer described Hermes here. When you think about it, using a bird at all as a swooping symbol  is pretty cool. :) I love all this background information.  I liked RR's second meaning for the bird, it looks like he just meant sea gull but that the translators are not entirely wrong in using cormorant, maybe the wrong context? I don't know!

Babi I agree on the cave descriptions, how beautiful and that does explain the one by Breughel in the heading (they are holding hands he's not grabbing a body part). You mention the supreme power of Zeus, in Lombardo he uses the word aegis, and that's an important word, do your translations not use it? What word do they use for Zeus' supreme power?

I love the Temple questions:

What is O's first utterance in the epic and what does it say about his attitude to other humans and to the gods? Why is he like this? Why does he reject Calypso's offer of immortality? Does this situation remind you of any other myths? Can they guide your interpretation of this episode?

The first thing Lombardo has O saying to us, our first encounter with O, is:


Odysseus' eyes shone with weariness. He stiffened,
And shot back at her words fletched like arrows:

"I don't know what kind of send-off you have in mind,
Goddess, telling me to cross all that open sea on a raft,
Painful, hard sailing. Some well-rigged vessels
Never make it across with a stiff wind from Zeus.
You're not going to catch me setting foot on any raft
Unless you agree to swear a solemn oath
That you're not planing some new trouble for me." (Lombardo, 170ff)



Here  is our first introduction to Odysseus and he's miserable, crying on the beach, homesick, wanting to go home, he's been on the road for...how long at this point?  We know he fought for 10 years and Troy fell and we know he gets home 10 years later but how long has he been gone now? He's lost all his men and ships and now here she comes and says HOORAY,  I'm sending you home, here's a nice ax, make a raft, I'll stock it up with provisions, clothes and a nice wind, the gods decree it, they want you home, so off you go!

What a strange reaction from him!!

What do you make of it, and him?





Babi

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #929 on: March 15, 2011, 09:05:39 AM »
 When I read that description of Hermes, I immediately thought of that childhood myth, the
'sandman' who waves his wand and drifts sand into our eyes to make us sleepy. That is too
close to Hermes not to be a descendent.

  So, all these gods had trees, birds and animals associated with them. I wonder if that
is why all our States have associated trees/birds/animals...and mottos? Tradition!!

  There is no evidence of soap when the princess and her maids do the laundry, BARB. They
have some special place along the river where the rocks and rapid flow do the cleaning
while the girls 'scrub' them by trampling with the feet.

  After all that the gods and and demigods have done to Odysseus, I'm not at all surprised
that he is suspicious when Calypso suddenly tells him he is free and can go home. I'd want
that solemn oath, too.  Even so, Poseidon did manage to cause him some more grief before
he reached the next island.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #930 on: March 15, 2011, 10:56:11 AM »
Tales of Brave Ulysses
From the album "Disraeli Gears"
Band : Cream

You thought the leaden winter would bring you down forever

But you rode upon a steamer to the violence of the sun



And the colors of the sea blind your eyes with trembling mermaids

And you touch the distant beaches with tales of brave Ulysses

How his naked ears were tortured by the sirens sweetly singing

For the sparkling waves are calling you to kiss their white laced lips



And you see a girl's brown body dancing through the turquoise

And her footprints make you follow where the sky loves the sea
 

And when your fingers find her, she drowns you in her body

Carving deep blue ripples in the tissues of your mind



The tiny purple fishes run laughing through your fingers

And you want to take her with you to the hard land of the winter



Her name is Aphrodite and she rides a crimson shell

And you know you cannot leave her

For you touched the distant sands with tales of brave Ulysses

How his naked ears were tortured by the sirens sweetly singing



The tiny purple fishes run laughing through your fingers

And you want to take her with you to the hard land of the winter


How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

JudeS

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #931 on: March 15, 2011, 12:47:05 PM »
Barb St.
In answer to your questions.
In China we were on the Li river when we saw the fishing. It was part of a tour which, among other wonderful things, we spent seven days  sailing on the Yangtze.

Roshanarose
Thanks for the modern update on Brave Ulysses.  It only proves again that the story is such a great one that it will never die but will transmogrify into other venues.

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #932 on: March 15, 2011, 08:54:48 PM »
Jude - My pleasure.  As I read the words to that song I can plainly hear the music in my mind.  The lyrics were way ahead of their time.  A lot different to their contemporaries, Cream introduced Psychedelic style to a conservative world.  btw I love the word "transmogrify".  I first read it in Keats' wonderful poem "Lamia".


Odysseus spent about 6 (maybe 7) years with Kalypso.  
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #933 on: March 15, 2011, 10:41:27 PM »
Wow! I've been ill and haven't been on the computer for two days: so much to think about.

Thank you for your wonderful responses to my bird questions. Still too fuzzy-headed to take it all in, but I'll say more about it tomorrow.

For those who don't care about birds, I think this is good, because it reminds us what a difficult task those who attempt to translate this ancient document have. As ROSE says, after her wonderful translation:

"Let me say I stand in awe of the first person who translated Homer into English!  I think it was a medieval monk bent over his desk, sitting on one of those stools, his eyes completely ruined.  I am similar, only I bet the monk didn't have to do the housework, attend to emails, do the washing and then go shopping" .

I stand in awe of you all, who can do both!! 



JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #934 on: March 15, 2011, 10:47:26 PM »
Rose found that the word used in the first quote means gull or cormorant. Most translaters chose cormorant, but the description fits a gull exactly:

"Skimming the waves like a ????.
The bird that patrols the saltwater billows
Hunting for fish, seaspume on its plumage

Hermes flying low and planing the whitcaps"


JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #935 on: March 15, 2011, 10:55:20 PM »
And the SECOND quote fits cormorants:

""Around her cave the woodland was in bloom,
Alder and poplar and fragrant cypress
Long-winged birds neested in the leaves,
Horned owls and larks and slender-throated ?????
That screech like crows over the bright saltwater."

Especially when one translator called them "ravens of the sea".

A large black noisy bird. I thought of cormorants, but didn't know whether they nest in trees. They do! Here's proof.

http://freedigitalphotos.net/images/Birds_g52-Cormorant_Nest_p27175.html


JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #936 on: March 15, 2011, 11:08:00 PM »
BARB: great picture of a tern. here are some gulls:

http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/franklins


JudeS

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #937 on: March 16, 2011, 12:56:53 AM »
Joan K.
Look at my post #924 , last paragraph, for info on the name of the Cormorant  as derived from the Greek.
From my meandering on the subject I read there are 40, yes forty, types of cormorants (sometimes, in England, known as Shags).

As to Calypso-I sort of liked her.  She loved Odysseus and didn't want to let him go.  But when forced she did a good job of preparing him for the journey ahead. Perhaps its my translation but she seemed very modern in her personality and somehow accessible.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #938 on: March 16, 2011, 01:01:28 AM »
Off the subject a bit but oh how my grandmother hated gulls - she thought them so filthy since they hovered over and picked in the garbage heaps of towns - we lived on an Island where she saw them following barges of garbage as well as circling and picking in a garbage heap located up the shore from where we could see. Then she saw them picking up shell sea creatures and drop them from a great height to brake the shells and again, she thought they were too lazy to fish - she had no respect for a gull. She mumbled some long triste in German that always ended with head shaking from side to side saying, dreck - hersteller von dreck - dreck
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #939 on: March 16, 2011, 01:55:30 AM »
JUDE: " The cormorant's scientific genus name is latinized from the Ancient Greek from "phelakus"(bald) and "korax" (raven). Cormorant is a contraction derived from Latin "corvus marinus" or sea raven"

yes, I saw that, but when I went to post, couldn't find it again. That's why I think the "raven of the sea" is a cormorant.

Babi

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #940 on: March 16, 2011, 09:15:38 AM »
Ah, yes, JOANK, a picture is worth a thousand words.  I note they are definitely 'slender-
throated', too.

    This is the first time in my translation that I have noticed anyone speaking in verse.  Hermes speeches are in the form of a poem. It made an interesting diversion.   I considered whether I would have liked the entire saga to be  written that way, and decided not.   The story seems more real with the action and most of the dialogue in prose..  The poesy now becomes simply a quirk of Hermes speech; an identifier, perhaps, and pleasant to read.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #941 on: March 16, 2011, 09:51:10 AM »
Gee I love the posts here. So he stayed with Calypso 6-7 years, thank you RR.

Now we've met Odysseus and the first thing he does is take issue with a goddess,  Calypso, who offers him his freedom, and says I don't trust you, give me assurance.

(I guess I used to watch too much I Dream of Jeannie or something I was surprised when  she handed him an ax and said have at it. He seems a bit surprised, too. hahahaa)

  And then in the middle of all this, when he's blown WAY off course Ino appears, another goddess, sitting on his raft...this is better than The Ancient Mariner...and she says here's what to do....what is his reaction THEN? And what does it show about him? If you were in his shoes would you say the same thing?



Deb feels sorry for Calypso and Jude sort of likes her, she seems modern. I agree with both,  and Frybabe can feel her pain: how do you all feel about Calypso?

Babi asked a good question way back there about Calypso:

Calypso’s tirade, when told she must give up Odysseus, is interesting.  She makes a point I hadn’t recognized before.  As much as Zeus/Jupiter played around, fathering children all over the place,  there was little tolerance for the love affairs of other gods with mortals.  She points  to two  examples.  Were there others?   If so, why this hypocrisy?   Is Zeus the only one allowed to indulge himself?

What do you say to this one?


Hermes in Lombardo is not speaking in rhyme. Neither does Murray have him doing so. I would not take anything for us all reading different translations! What does YOURS have Hermes doing? Babi's is rhyme, whose translation  is that, again, Babi?

And then Odysseus sets out on this wonderful raft, keeping to the left hand, watching the stars, the Pleiades and the Bootes and the Bear (Ursa Major? Minor?) for 17 days and on the 18th he sees Phaecia! And this is not home, but it's the last stop, see maps, before he gets to Ithaca.


He can see it but that's about it because Poseidon is back from Ethiopia. He unleashes an horrific storm and Murray has O saying:

"Would that like them [the other Greeks]  I too had died and met my fate on that day when the throngs of the Trojans hurled upon me bronze-tipped spears, fighting around the body of the dead son of Peleus.

Then should I have got funeral rites, and the Achaeans would have spread my fame, but now it is by a miserable death that it was  my fate to be cut off."

And even "as he was saying this the great wave struck him from above, rushing upon him with terrible force, and spun his raft in  a circle."

(Murray)

This is such an important thing here.

The son of Peleus is Achilles.  The mention here of Achilles is not by accident. Achilles struggled with his kleos through the entire Iliad, it WAS his raison d'être.


Quote
 There are two very important words repeatedly used throughout the Homeric epics: honor (timé ) and virtue or greatness (areté ). The latter term is perhaps the most reiterated cultural and moral value in Ancient Greece and means something like achieving, morally and otherwise, your greatest potential as a human being. The reward for great honor and virtue is fame (kleos ), which is what guarantees meaning and value to one's life. Dying without fame (akleos ) is generally considered a disaster, and the warriors of the Homeric epics commit the most outrageous deeds to avoid dying in obscurity or infamy (witness Odysseus's absurd insistence on telling Polyphemos his name even though this will bring disaster on him and his men in the Polyphemos episode).

Polyphemos is the Cyclops, that's just coming up soon.

From:http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/MINOA/HOMER.HTM

This is beautiful work here, and something we want to watch out for: Odysseus has two quests here which he feels deeply: to return home, and to gain kleos.











kidsal

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #942 on: March 16, 2011, 10:51:29 AM »
Struck with amaze, yet still to doubt inclined,
He stands suspended, and explores his mind.
“What shall I do?  Unhappy me!  Who knows
But other gods intend me other woes?
Whoe’er thou art, I shall not blindly join
Thy pleaded reason, but consult with mine:
For scarce in ken appears that distant isle
Thy voice foretells me shall conclude my toil
Thus then I judge:  while yet the planks sustain
The wild waves fury, here I fix’d remain;
But when their texture to the tempests yields,
I launch adventurous on the liquid fields,
Join to the help of gods the strength of man,
And take this method, since the best I can.”

Odysseus decides to do what he thinks best rather than blindly follow the god's recommendations.  I would be inclined to believe the god's were out to get me and not put too much faith in their advice.

Frybabe

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #943 on: March 16, 2011, 01:18:52 PM »
Quote
the Pleiades and the Bootes and the Bear

Ginny, Pope says the Northern Team rather than Bootes. I thought it might be the Gemini Twins. I looked at a star chart. Polaris (the premier navigational star) is at the end of Ursa Minor's handle, so I expect Minor is what he meant. The Pleiades and Bootes (the Herdsman) are pretty much in a straight line, one on either side of Ursa Minor. If the Northern Team is Gemini, then Gemini, the Pleiades and Ursa Minor form a triangle. Do we have any sailor's who learned star navigation around?

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #944 on: March 16, 2011, 03:15:19 PM »
PatH is our sailor and star gazer. What do you think of that navigation, Pat?

Has anyone noticed in the bird quotes above that the trees are blooming and the birds nesting, so it is Spring. Maybe Ulysses' doldrums at the beginning are Spring Fever. When we got moody in Spring, our mother used to give us molassas.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #945 on: March 16, 2011, 04:04:46 PM »
The problem - stars were a navigation tool used after the time Homer is writing about - there was yet, no knowledge of navigation by stars and the star groups - constellations - were not yet, named and so it is either something that was added later or, as some suggest, the story that was used from which to translate or copy was told after 500BC. There is also the concern of known changes, additions and omissions in the hand copying of other ancient texts including the Bibles and therefore, it is easy to make the assumption that this Epic/Translation is not pure.

Here is a link to a site that explains the History of Navigation

Which is in keeping with what Mosses Finley, Cambridge professor of ancient History says in his book "The World of Odysseus" - He gives Hesiod, in Works and Days a great deal of credit for keeping the Homer's story alive - he suggests it was "Hesiod or some nameless predeccessor who converted this eastern myth of four ages into the Hellenic myth of five ages which captures a 'god-like race of hero-men' who are called demi-gods the race before our own, throughout the boundless earth. Grim war and dread battle destroyed a part of them...Unfortunately, neither Homer nor Hesiod had the slightest interest in History as we might understand the notion. The poets' concern was with certain "facts" of the past, not with their relationship to other facts, past or present, and, in the case of Homer, not even with the consequences of those facts."  

 To paraphrase he says, the Trojan War would have been "of prime importance to a  historian of the war. Yet the poet of the Iliad was indifferent to all that, the poet of the Odyssey less so." In this chapter he continues to point out the weakness is translations and why as a result, for a couple of centuries reading Virgil became the favorite. He says that when Greeks made up the chronology in detail, although there was not entire agreement, few departed dating the Trojan War to 1200 BC with Homer living 4 hundred years later and Hesiod was his contemporary and in one version his cousin.

Finley tells how Herodotus writing after the fifth century, found with hundreds of Greek communities having different political structures and separate sovereignties, there was no single national territory under one sovereign rule called Greece. "Such a world could not possibly have produced a unified consistent national mythology...Each new tribe, each new community, each shift in power relations within the aristocratic elite, meant some change in the genealogies of heroes, in the outcome of past family feuds, in the delicate balances among men and gods..."

Interesting to me is that Finley says, "Of course, Homer reflected the views and values of the aristocracy, from the opening line of the Iliad to the final sentence of the Odyssey." In his tome he gave many quotes from both books showing how in the poem the multitude remark at the orders commanded and accomplishments of mostly Odysseus. He goes on to explain that aristocrats and commoners held two completely contradictory sets of values and beliefs. He continues to further this explanation with who and how the scepter is passed and that it was a club -

Finley explains that Warrior and hero are synonyms - and then goes on to explain the profound differences between the "Bronze Age and the eighth century BC and importantly, the Dark Age separates the supposed Mycenaean world of Odysseus assisted by continuous archaeological excavation and study." This is where in the book he describes the pursuit of agriculture and pasturage, magical ships that he suggest came for the story as part of Homer's poem originated from the Phacacians. Trade, gifts, etc.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #946 on: March 16, 2011, 10:10:44 PM »
I don't think that Kalypso has too much to grumble about to Hermes re Gods having all the fun.  She did have Odysseus for 7 years all to herself, after all.  Zeus' dalliances were never long term affairs.  He was a proponent of the practice of "Wham.  Bang.  Thank You, Maam".  Perhaps Kalypso vented because she knew that Odysseus didn't love her and that he sat around all day pining for Penelope.  That situation could not have been much fun.  I have been wracking my shrinking cerebellum wondering about what other Goddesses had affairs with mortal men.  One young man spotted Artemis nude and she turned him into a deer, and then set her dogs onto him.  Helen was semi-divine, I know, but .....  any ideas??
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

JudeS

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #947 on: March 17, 2011, 12:57:00 AM »
Rosanarose
I have also been searching  in a number of places to find the answer to your question.
One site said Calypso was not a Goddess but a nymph.
The one example that was sited was Aphrodite and Adonis.Then it went on to all the mortals Zeus had affairs with and the progeny that arose from these affairs.
Another site said the following:In answer to liasons between mortals and gods there was mostly seductions and rapes of a mortal woman by a male god. These relationships rarely had happy endings. In one case a female, Aphrodite , mates with a mortal, Anchises to produce Aeneas.

A number of the sites were lead ins to "So you want to be a Goddess"! Let us help you." kind of ads.
After three of these I gave up.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #948 on: March 17, 2011, 01:16:54 AM »
She evidently  has a few sons - they do not seem to be fathered by Odysseus - is that right Roshanarose?

Found this -
Quote
"KALLIOPE (or Calliope) was the eldest of the Mousai (Muses), the goddesses of music, song and dance. She was also the goddess of eloquence, who bestowed her gift on kings and princes.

In Classical times--when the Muses were assigned specific artistic spheres--Kalliope was named Muse of epic poetry. In this guise she was portrayed holding a tablet and stylus or a scroll. In older art she holds a lyre.

Kalliope was the mother of the bard Orpheus. When her son was dismembered by the Bakkhantes, she recovered his head and enshrined on the island of Lesbos."
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #949 on: March 17, 2011, 06:57:31 AM »
Gosh the things that come up in here! Another super research topic. Thank you Jude, RR and Barbara. You'd have to take a list of the major and minor Greek goddesses (Charlie Sheen notwithstanding) and then look up each one for children. If somebody will provide a list, we can share the looking up, there are quite a few of them. Orpheus, for example, was said to be the son of a Muse. Do we consider a Muse a goddess? Let's get up a list of female goddesses and each one look one up. I keep thinking of Julius Caesar who enjoyed tracing his line back to Aeneas, due to the goddess connection.


Barbara, thank you for this:
Finley explains that Warrior and hero are synonyms - and then goes on to explain the profound differences between the "Bronze Age and the eighth century BC and importantly, the Dark Age separates the supposed Mycenaean world of Odysseus assisted by continuous archaeological excavation and study." That's interesting!

JoanK, good catch on the season we're in here, 31 days into it!


Sally: Odysseus decides to do what he thinks best rather than blindly follow the god's recommendations.  I would be inclined to believe the god's were out to get me and not put too much faith in their advice.

Good point!

Frybabe: I looked at a star chart. Polaris (the premier navigational star) is at the end of Ursa Minor's handle, so I expect Minor is what he meant. Thank you. I can't even find the Big Dipper in the sky so I'm no help on constellations, in fact, I'm confused on the whole  "constellations" issue here, too. Are  we saying in here  the ancients did not know any? Or they weren't named?

In our reading of Ovid, for instance, in our Latin classes we are constantly coming across this or that figure being placed in the heavens by this or that god, Callisto comes to mind. This is in keeping with the creation myths and the anthropomorphic nature of the need to explain every element the ancients saw. But certainly the stars were named by the ancients, and sometimes in connection with others:

For instance, this is from: http://stars.astro.illinois.edu/sow/const.html


Quote
A Brief Introduction

Constellations are named patterns of stars. All societies created them. The classical -- "ancient" -- constellations that populate our sky began in the lands of the middle east thousands of years ago, their origins largely lost to time. They passed through the hands of the ancient Greeks, who overlaid them with their legends and codified them in story and verse. During Roman times they were assigned Latin names.

The 48 ancient constellations single out only the bright patterns. From around 1600 to 1800, post-Copernican astronomers invented hosts of "modern" constellations from the faint stars that lie between the classical figures, from pieces of ancient constellations, and from the stars that occupy the part of the southern sky that could not be seen from classical lands. Later astronomers broke the ship Argo into three parts, yielding 50 ancient constellations.

In the early twentieth century, the International Astronomical Union (IAU) adopted 38 of the modern constellations and drew rectangular borders around all 88. Many of these contain informal constellations, or "asterisms," that are often the first to be learned, Ursa Major holding the "Big Dipper" and so on. Other asterisms, like the Winter Triangle, cut across constellation boundaries. Some constellations look like what they are supposed to represent, but most do not. Constellations, both ancient and modern, are generally meant to honor and represent, not to portray.


I don't know anything about astronomy but it's clear that Homer is referring to certain named stars. Here's another mystery for us to figure out together, why do we say in this discussion  there were no constellations in Homer's time and what is our definition of "constellations?" The 88 named in 1922? Or the ones the ancients talked about?



Love the discussion on Calypso (also a type of music), and in looking for a true Calypso piece (apparently there's a difference) I found these words yesterday "by Harry Belafonte (Calypso version). (Apparently if you saw Beetlejuice or are a fan of Belafonte, a true representation of Calypso is not this but rather Jump in the Line. Very bouncy.

Man Smart, Woman Smarter Lyrics:

I say let us put man and a woman together
To find out which one is smarter
Some say man but I say no
The woman got the man de day should know

(Chorus)
And not me but the people they say
That de man has always lead woman astray
But I say, please listen when I say
She's smarter than the man in every way
That's right de woman is uh smarter
That's right de woman is uh smarter
That's right de woman is uh smarter, that's right, that's right

So it occurred to me to ask, so far, in our narrative, which ones ARE the smarter, the men or the women? I find it interesting that in this ancient story the women seem to actually be out thinking our Epic heroes, on every turn, and the men around them, despite the men's reputation and propensity for "thinking."

What do you think? So far? Jump in the line! hahahaa Can't get that out of my head.

I would say based on what I've seen so far, the women are smarter AND more strong, not physically, but in steadfastness. Odysseus is always "thinking," and yet the women...I would say seem to have the upper hand, but do they?

Homer DID start with the besieged Penelope and the suitors but I am not sure we understand how difficult her situation really was. When O gets home we can see it clearly, for now she's holding an entire pack of them off. I'm so far voting with the women. I guess it depends on your definition of "smartness."

I think Helen is as dumb as a brick, sorry Helen fanciers.

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #950 on: March 17, 2011, 09:09:14 AM »
Ginny - Do your remember the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit"?  The lovely and much maligned and lusted after Jessica Rabbit says:  "I'm not bad.  I'm just drawn that way" always makes me think of Helen.  I love Helen because she is truly an enigma.

Barb - Not too sure whether you mean Kalliope or Kalypso.  I did read somewhere ? in my research on Kalypso that in yet another version of The Odyssey, Kalypso had borne Odysseus children in their 7 years together.
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

Babi

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #951 on: March 17, 2011, 09:20:17 AM »
 
 I have the Robert Fitzgerald copy, GINNY. I just noticed in the back of the book that a
number of lines from the Greek text were deleted as being questionable. The addendum does
identify which lines were deleted, if it ever becomes an issue.

 I did a quick search on demigods in Greek mythology, and was startled at how many I found.
I was thinking I'd check into their histories and see if there was evidence of unfair
treatment of god/mortal partners, but I simply don't have time enough to track down all of
them.

 I find it interesting that Arete (I can't make the markings) means virtue or greatness.
It can't be accident that the queen of this island where Odysseus is shipwrecked bears
that name.

(She may not have told you, JOANK, but there was probably sulphur in that molasses. It's
an 'old wives' rememdy for spring fever.)
 Ah, ROSHANA, your quote misses the poetic thythm. I think the phrase is "Wham, bam, thank  you, Ma'am".
  I did find out that Eos, Goddess of the Dawn, had a husband and a large number
of lovers, including a mortal. As far as I can tell, she did as she pleased.
 
 
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #952 on: March 17, 2011, 09:28:58 AM »
Babi : I stand corrected on that quote.  Here is the source:

Suffragette City
David Bowie


Chorus

Ohhh, Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am!

A Suffragette City, a Suffragette City
Quite all right
A Suffragette City
Too fine
A Suffragette City, ooh, a Sufragette City
Oh, my Sufragette City, oh my Suffragette City
Oh, Suffragette
Suffragette!
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

JudeS

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #953 on: March 17, 2011, 12:56:02 PM »
We may be confused a bit because various legends and stories abound about the more "exotic" Goddesses, Nymphs , Muses etc.
Here is the example Roshanarose alluded to.
Calypso was a nymph who loved Odysseus and wanted him to be her husband. In some later stories Calypso bore Odysseus a son,Latinus. In other accounts she bore him two children  Nausithus and Nausinos.In other accounts Nausithus is the son of Poseidon.

Fagles calls Calypso a goddess-nymph.

Many, like myself, found her a fascinating character. Jacque Cousteau named his ship "Calypso".

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #954 on: March 17, 2011, 03:22:02 PM »
Quote
KALYPSO (Latin spelling - Calypso) was the goddess nymph of the mythical island of Ogygia, (the navel of the sea), a daughter of the Titan Atlas. She detained the hero Odysseus for many years during his wanderings after the fall of Troy.
It appears we are reading a translation that uses the Latin spelling for the names of some of the characters.

We keep bumping into so many inconsistencies that all I can see is this is a wild adventure story offering us the ability to see it as a myth that explains a people - this 5th chapter taken as a whole seems to explain the birth of a people. Just reading the chapter for the symbolic meaning is like a birth of man story.

The Raft/Boat/Ship is built of trees that some say were Alder, Pine and Black Poplar - some say was Poplar, Cypress and Fig - some say Fir, Ash and Willow. Makes a huge difference in that each tree symbolizes a strength - like a talisman - often of one of the gods or goddesses.

Some say that Kalypso/Calyspso brought Odysseus an auger to help him build his raft - others say a Bronze ax and still others an Adze and others both an ax and an adze - they all agree she brought him linen for the sail.

Getting a handle and trying hard to figure out just what these people were like and what they knew is a trick and a half. I read how little the folks of the Mycenaean world knew of other cultures except, for Crete and that some were blown to Egypt. However, there does not seem to be anything that suggests there was a sea-path across to Egypt. Now the issue of stars - we have several web sites explaining, it was the Phoenicians in 1100BC who figured out the pole star. With the next group that benefited from their prowess at sea seems to be the Romans. Inventions and Discoveries - and then this one Phoenician Navigation

Here is a wonderful article about the Greeks and the Bear/pole star but no dates when it was part of their navigation. We know at the time of Odysseus there was not a unified Greece. Later dates are given for the inclusion of the pole star in Greek literature but this time Homer is not mentioned. Greeks and the Polaris

Then finally, on this confusing issue there were 5 separate stars considered at one time or other the pole star: Polaris - Al Deramin - Deneb - Vega - Thuban. They form a circle. This article, so far is the only one I can find showing the Greeks had information about a Pole Star. Prof. Emeritus of Astronomy, University of Illinois . He quotes Homer as his authority - that is where I throw up my hands. How can we be using Homer as a basis when there are so many inconsistencies - unless, he had access to an early copy written in the Greek  - so far we have seen translation after translation showing different wording with some information included and some excluded - it makes a difference. Example the silly trees –
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #955 on: March 17, 2011, 04:16:49 PM »
Why I am trying to nail this is that I can see this myth as a symbolic story more than an accurate account of life in 1100BC or even 800BC - I think there are tickling bits about the life of that time but I also think the translators did not always have access to the archaeological finds that helped nail the story and they also translated from their own knowledge and experience so that they may have in their minds eye an understanding for translation that shades the meaning or story.

So with that I do own two books that give us the symbolic meanings in literature and the Internet has many other sites that help with this knowledge. Just as we know what a red light means or a sea buoy or a flying horse on a gas station sign other signs that are no longer as popular in their use can give us the importance of a story - having spoken with several authors they readily admit they were not writing to achieve this symbolic meaning as a secondary message - however, each admits it was right on and there must be an instinctive force that has them choose the happenings or use of props in the story when they write.

And so with that - the 5th chapter of the Odyssey is filled with symbolism.

Raft/Boat/Ship: carry the sun and moon across the seas. The earth is a boat floating on the primordial waters.

The raft, as in our story is the sheltering aspect of the Great Mother, the womb, the cradle, the vessel of transformation; a saviour and protector on the sea of life. As bearer of the sun and moon boats represent fecundity and fertility of the waters; they signify adventure; exploration; setting out on the sea of life; also crossing the water of death; crossing from this world to the next. The ship of life, setting out on the waters of creation.

The mast has an axial symbolism - the mast is the axis mundi and shares the significance of the Tree of Life.

Water: is the source of all potential in existence; the source and the grave of all things in the universe; the unmanifest; the first form of matter. All waters are symbolic of the Great Mother and associated with birth, the universal womb, the prima materia, the waters of fertility and refreshment and the fountain of life.

Water is the liquid counterpart of light; the continual flux of the manifest world, with unconsciousness, they dissolve, abolish, purify, wash away and regenerate; they infuse new life; baptism by water or blood in initiatory religions, washes away the old life and sanctifies the new. Rebirth from the static condition of death, the waters of the spring or Fountain of life rise from the root of the Tree of life in the center of Paradise.

[There are issues of lower waters and higher waters - there is a whole bit on the relationship between fire and water -  there are pages and pages of symbolic meanings for water - with just about every culture having their special association with a symbolic meaning for water.]

Water Greek: Aphrodite rose from the waters, Poseidon controls the power of the waters. River Lethe is oblivion and river Styx is crossed at death.

Waves: as water in ceaseless movement, waves denote vicissitude, change, illusion, vanity , agitation.
Storm: the creative power, the bringer of fertilizing rain.
River: the flux of the world; the passage of life, the realm of the divinity, the macrocosm, The River of Death, the world of change, the return to the source. Symbolized by the river flowing is the return to the pristine, paradisaical state to find enlightenment.

The mouth of the river shares the symbolism of the door or gate, giving access to another realm, to the ocean of unity, in rites of passage, or journeys from one state to another, the journey is from one bank to another, across the river of life or death.

If the journey is taken to the mouth of the river the banks become dangerous and must be avoided and the symbolism becomes that of the dangerous passage. River Greek: Are depicted as virile men with horns and long, flowing beards.

Leaf:- [Odysseus covers himself with leaves] Fertility; growth; renewal, Dead leaves are sadness. Green leaves depict hope, revival, renewal.

Then all the numbers - four days to build the raft - two days in the storm at sea - 7 years on the Island - that is another whole post.

As to the various Trees: - this is a pretty good link of two pages of symbolism for plants and flowers that includes most of the trees
Plants and Flowers of Greek Myth the ability to go to page two is at the bottom of the page.

The tree cited most often is the Alder - this is a good paired down [would you believe] explanation:
Quote
Alder is a member of the Birch family...  both Birch (Beith) and Hazel (Coll), have flowers and seeds born in catkins. Usually found near streams - as is the case with Willow (Saille) it does not thrive well on dry ground.

The wood used for pumps, troughs, sluices and for bridge building. It resists water, the timber fends off underwater decay indefinitely, used in the underwater construction of the Celtic lake dwellings found in Switzerland. Although a poor fuel Tree, as Willow, Poplar and Chestnut, it yields the best charcoal, continuing the image as a Fire Tree.

Alder/Fearn is seen to fend off the destructive power of Winter, signifying the Spring's dew and the year's true start.
In The Odyssey, Alder is the first of the three Trees of Resurrection - along with White Poplar and Cypress - forming the protective wood around the cave of Calypso, the daughter of Atlas. The Greek word for Alder, clethera, is derived from cleio, meaning, "I close" or "I confine”. In legend, paradisaical Apple orchard islands are surrounded for protection by Alder Trees.


Alder renders three different dyes. Red from bark, green from flowers and brown from its twigs. The dyes represent three of the four Elements - Fire, Water and Earth. The red dye was used to dye the faces of Sacred Kings in ritual. The green dye was associated with the clothing of Faeries, who may be regarded as survivors of earlier, dispossessed tribes and coincides with the legend of the Green Man. The use of these dyes are very ancient.

It is identified with Phoroneus who was the inventor of fire (which Prometheus brought to Man); also symbolizes Mars due to its inherent Fire nature, in addition it is seen as the lord of birth, death, generation and destruction, of sexual and spiritual power that can both liberate and destroy. Its powers, are said to promote courage, boldness and vitality.

Of its magical uses, whistles to call up the North Wind are made of the wood and divining rods are of Alder, used by Witches to make rain.

Since its buds grow in spirals, it has become a symbol of resurrection and new life and is a harbinger of Spring, showing a hardy survival to the rigors of Winter, reinforcing the resurrection and protective power image.

Its keyword in divination is 'foundation'. When Alder appears, it gives great strength in contentious situations or competition, granting tenacity and determination. Fearn's spiritual protection in disputes, allows for oracular strength but asks you to be true to your principles - your foundation - and thus to remain steadfast in decisions based upon this quality.

The challenge of Fearn/Alder is to have the knowledge of when to act, to allow change and when to remain quiescent. It may also indicate that you fear defeat to such a degree that your courage is impaired and you may hesitate when action is necessary. Alder tells you that you must listen to your inner voice, be receptive to its message. Similarly, since resurrection is called for, maintaining a youthful approach and demeanor may be helpful.

 

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #956 on: March 17, 2011, 09:06:13 PM »
Yeah I think we have three different women going here:

Callisto: nymph changed into a bear whose son nearly killed her by mistake until they were both changed into the Great Bear and the Little Bear constellations (the Little Bear, Ursa Minor, was also known as Bootes).

Calypso: our goddess or nymph here with Odysseus.

Calliope: one of the Muses, representing the Muse of Epic poetry, sometimes said to be the mother of Orpheus.

Mythology is about as ephemeral sometimes as a flame,  and there are often many different versions of the same story, so it's not surprising that there are conflicts in the details of the  stories told.

Babi, if we come to (or have come upon) a passage that the Fitzgerald identifies as possibly deleted as being questionable, I sure would like to hear what they are, if you don't mind?

I came in to say I am delighted to have already received the Classics Illustrated Odyssey and it's just beautiful. It's nothing like I expected. It's small and compact, a little smaller than 5x7 and it's very bright, and on good paper, it's not a comic book as I remember them.  It's followed believe it or not by a study guide and a huge analysis of the Odyssey and it's got some great questions, or so I think. It's 1997 for a copyright date. Must be some kind of reprint or something, I love it.

Here's a bit from it:

The basic unit of Homeric composition is the dactylic foot. Each line of text consists  of six feet--mostly of dactyl units (with spondees mixed in for rhythmic  variation and various sound effects.).

It's interesting to realize, at least to me, that the original Greek which of course most of us are not reading, holds to this form, 6 feet, or stressed syllable patterns,  per line: It makes those who try to emulate it in their translations more understandable now.

This is a super site on  meter: http://myweb.stedwards.edu/georgek/poetics/scansion.html

They say of the dactyl:


Quote
Dactylic Foot

The dactylic foot consists of three syllables, the first of which is spoken louder than the second and third. The following words are all examples of dactylic feet:

              /    _     _
            mur mur ing

             /   _   _
            ru mi nate

              /    _     _
            Hen der son (name of a person called Henderson)

And here's a spondee or spondaic foot:

Quote
Spondaic Foot

The spondaic foot consists of two syllables, both hard. There is no unaccented syllable in a spondaic foot.

                  /        /
                  gum  drop

                  /        /
                  pen   guin


So just, to me, looking at that makes you, even tho we can't read it in the original, have more appreciation of what Homer or the ancient bards, or whoever,  did. It's amazing, to me.

Is anybody reading a translation which copies this meter exactly? Does Pope? I'd like to see those spondees in an English version of Homer, just out of curiosity: they are literally heart stoppers, aren't they? Bam Bam.  I'd like to see how they are done in an English translation of Homer.  If possible.

The book starts with a fabulous drawing of the raft. But it doesn't look like it was described, in Homer, to me. I'm really obsessing over this raft! I like the idea of a raft as symbol, thank you Barbara. If you look back at all the times a raft has been used in literature, it's interesting what it represents in that work. I still wonder why she just didn't whip one up but handed HIM the ax. haahaha

Also according to this little comic book, Books I-IV are, as we've said, the Telemachy, and  V-VII are The Homecoming. Since PatH says VI and VII are short, maybe we should read them next, together?

Since we're  not putting questions for discussion IN the heading but rather taking them from the posts or suggestions here of the participants, here are a few more. We were talking about women, the little book asks: Are there characteristics that the mortal women share (Penelope, Arete, Nausikaa)? What about the immortal women? (Kalypso, Hera, Athene, Aphrodite?)_

We haven't met all these women yet, so I'm not sure we can answer this one but it might be good to be thinking about. I notice they don't ask about Helen, interesting.

Here are all the questions from Temple U on Book V:

Book 5

152 Second council of the gods. Note the reference to Athena's plan. Hermes to order Calypso to send him home, and Hermes delivers the message. When was the first council? Are there any real differences from the first one? Why Hermes? Think about his functions.

What is the etymology of Calypso? Try to comment on the description of her domain. Is she a good hostess? Note her "feminist" complaint.

Why has Homer kept Odysseus from us for 4 books?

152-7 Calypso agrees, tells O to build a boat, and reassures him when he suspects treachery. The next day he departs. What is O's first utterance in the epic and what does it say about his attitude to other humans and to the gods? Why is he like this? Why does he reject Calypso's offer of immortality? Does this situation remind you of any other myths? Can they guide your interpretation of this episode?

161-7 As O sights the island of Scheria after 17 days, the home of the Phaeacians, Poseidon wrecks his boat. Why? The sea-goddess Leucothea (Ino) saves him, but in his near-paranoia, he almost rejects her help; again, as you read, think about how he has reached this point. Athena stills the storm, and he reaches the coast, finds shelter and falls asleep.

Note the similes in this book; are they different from the similes in the Iliad?. To what is O being compared?Why are these comparisons made?

In this book you read (at least) 2 indications of the seasons. What time of year do you think it is? (This is important for understanding some of the underlying mythic patterns).




Do any of these interest? I don't like to miss a trick, but I am not sure I know the answers here. Together I am sure we can figure them out.  I am wondering what is different about the Confab of the gods starting in Book V, versus the first one, do any of you see a difference, and if so what is it?

Why do you think Homer has kept Odysseus from us for 4 books?








 


roshanarose

  • Posts: 1344
Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #957 on: March 17, 2011, 11:18:07 PM »
ginny : Re: dactylic foot.  In MG and AG daktylo/ς means finger.  Daktylidi means ring, and other variations exist as well. The pronunciation in English for finger is dak til o and for ring is dak til idi.  In Greek they are written δάκτυλος (finger) and δακτύλιος (ring)  Just to confuse matters even more my Liddell & Scott - now an extension of my hand ;) tells me this about "dactyl".

"daktylos, o, plural daktyloi, poet. also daktyla - a finger ....... II the shortest Greek measure of length, a finger's breadth (seven-tenths) III a metrical foot, dactyl  _ ^  ^, e.g. axios."

I guess this illustrates that too much knowledge can prove to be very confusing. My first impression was why on Earth use finger and foot together, as they are obviously two different things, but I now realise that for "convenience" they decided to combine them in order to make it more understandable for English readers in regard to measure, not body parts?  Huh!   I am still wondering.  
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11350
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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #958 on: March 17, 2011, 11:35:55 PM »
huh - interesting - now I am wondering - when I was a kid folks did more measuring using hands and fingers and the length of the part of the thumb from knuckle to tip of nail - the thumb measured the width of liverwurst purchased - cloth was measured out in arm lengths - lace was measured out by the stretch of the hand from thumb to pinky finger - loose grain was sold by the hat full - the same for apples and onions - but nails were sold by the handful and boards were measured off by walking next to them - so now I wonder if those types of measurements were the actual feet and finger breadth that were interpreted into a beat for poetry...?
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Babi

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #959 on: March 18, 2011, 08:27:50 AM »
 I never did care for David Bowie, ROSHANA. That chorus reminds me why. What a welcome
relief Homer is!

 Yes, my translation uses the Greek spelling, BARB, but I decided it was easier to go with
the majority here. I didn't want to be the only one posting about 'Telemakhos'. What you
say about the Greeks having little knowledge of lands across the sea is reasonable; they
had to sail pretty close inland. With such poor navigational skills and tools, any sailing
far out to sea usually was due to a bad storm.

Quote
"..having spoken with several authors they readily admit they were not writing to achieve
this symbolic meaning as a secondary message.."
  I think we readers often do this, BARB; attach hidden or symbolic meanings that the author never intended. They're working hard
enough just to turn out a good story or poem. What we see as symbolism could have been
simply widely understood references in Homer's time. We can see symbolism in Odysseus
covering himself with leaves, or we can assume he was simply trying to get warm.
  I do notice that many of the symbols you identify also convey similar messages in the
study of dreams. Since we think in images, the subconscious also uses them in dreaming.

 GINNY, so far in our reading the only lines cut as being "thought spurious or out of
place in antiquity" are from Book I. These are lines 275-278 and 356-359.  Naturally, I
don't know what those lines said, as they are not in my translation. I'd be curious to
know what they are.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs