Classics Book Club, The

[fairanna]

 
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Now reading:

March 28---Book VIII: 
At the court of Alcinoös  

Odysseus on the island of the Phaiacians
Peter Paul Rubens (1577 - 1640)

Odysseus and Nausicaa
Salvator Rosa (1615 - 1673)
The Hermitage, St. Petersburg

 

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny 

Odysseus weeps at the singing of Demodocos
John Flaxman
1805

Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
Map of the  Voyages of Odysseus
Map of Voyages in order
Map of Stops Numbered
Our Map Showing Place Names in the Odyssey

Nausicaa
Frederic, Lord Leighton (1830 - 1896)

hurrah with the help my wonderful daughter and as soon as possible I will join EVERTHING HURRAH

[PatH]

Hurrah, Anna, it's good to have you back.

[kidsal]

Imagine O is saddened by recalling the war and loss of his friends.  Read somewhere and now I can't find it but there is a question about the song of the fight between Achilles and Odyssey - don't know where this was referred to previously by Homer.  Odyssey didn't cry when the song about Ares and Aphrodite was sung.  They all seemed to find this quite amusing.

No my family isn't Greek.  My father was born in 1904 and my uncle about the same time.  Perhaps everyone was reading Homer in school then

Food -- in many cultures it is considered essential to feed your guest even if your enemy and a little poison might be tossed in.  Remember the story of Gertrude Bell in the book Desert Queen.  She was always offered a meal at each oasis and she learned quickly not to refuse.

[Babi]

 

48 percent of men thought it was OK to cry at work versus 41 percent of women.
43 percent of women considered people who cry at work unstable, versus 32 percent of men.

Actually, I can understand this. Working women were frequently passed over for pay
raises and promotion, as you all know. One of the reasons often cited was that they were
'too emotional'. It's no wonder they've come to believe crying at work is unacceptable.

"..the blind bard Democodus and IS he in fact Homer put into the play?"

GINNY, it did seem to me that the bit about the poet/singer greatly enjoying the meat
that O sent over to him...that sounded like a very personal note. It is a kind of sidebar,
and I can well believe that 'Homer' had such an experience. Makes a good  hint to those
hearing him sing his saga, too, doesn't it? 
  So right about the prophecy Alcinous quotes. I dread the thought of all those fine
young men on the ship coming to grief. I do hope it doesn't happen, but I'm afraid it
will.

     I note Odysseus words, “All men owe honor to the poets--honor and awe, for they are dearest to the Muse who puts upon their lips the ways of life.”
    Poetry does that, and preserves the memories of a particular way of life as Homer has done for us. 
  That said, I am amazed at the richness of the gifts that are given to a stranger about whom they know nothing whatsoever.  What if Odysseus were a shipwrecked pirate, a spy, or any other type of man that they would be more likely to jail than feed?  Must be those auras
Athena keeps putting over him; everyone knows he is a high-class gent. 

[sandyrose]

I agree with this by Dana...

I have to say it--none of the pictures of any of the characters by any of these middle ages artists do anything for me. But neither do Taylor and Burton or any of the latest stars playing Romans or Greeks. They're just so of their time. (Whatever that means, how could they not be?) Anyway I have a vague fuzzy idea in my head,or no idea, and that's better to me.

 

I also find them too clean.  The actors often look freshly showered and squeaky clean instead of oiled.

Also, thank you PatH for why you like Lombardo.  I agree, but was not able to put my thoughts into words.

Dana, thank you for finding that about Calpyso and O-- "for she compelled him."  I tend to forget these are gods.

And Alcinous is the only one to notice O's weeping?? I thought perhaps the others attending these feasts are there only for the food and drink so do not care what O is doing.

Ginny, I thought this scarey also,

But I remember hearing
My father, Nausithous, say how Poseidon
was angry with us because we always give
Safe passage to men. He said that one day
Poseidon would smite a Phaecian ship
As it sailed back home over the misty sea,
And would encircle our city within a mountain.

--and now the Phaecian's will be giving safe passage to the man that killed Poseidon's son.

[PatH]

Greek ships: the oar terminology can be confusing.  The steering oar is the equivalent of a rudder--it's a wide oar at the back of the boat whose angle is changed to keep the ship going in the desired direction.  Viking ships had steering oars too; I don't know when rudders came in.  Even if the magical Phaeacian ships sailed themselves, they would need a steering oar to keep them pointed right.

In addition, the ships had a number of rowing oars.  These were used whenever there was no wind, or the wind was in the wrong direction.  Those old square sails would only work when the wind was coming from somewhere behind.

That's a pretty big ship Alcinous is giving Odysseus; it's got 52 oarsmen.  The ship Telemachus took had 20.

Here are some good pictures of ancient Greek ships, with an interesting article.  If you scroll down to the Phoenecian coin and the Greek warship from the Persian wars just beneath it, they show the steering oar clearly.

http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/Ancient_Ships/09_epic_poems.html

[PatH]

--and now the Phaecian's will be giving safe passage to the man that killed Poseidon's son.

Yes--I wonder if we'll see them punished for it.

[Dana]

How about a red headed  Russell Crowe for Odysseus? (he often looks a bit scruffy too, which wd fit, Sandyrose). Odysseus is supposed to be barrel chested, short legged, red haired, looks more dignified sitting down than standing up......

[Frybabe]

It has been so long since I have seen a Ulysses movie, I didn't remember who played the part. Lo and behold, it was Kirk Douglas. Really? It is the only one I remember seeing unless there was something earlier.

[JudeS]

I have never seen an Odysseus movie. What are the titles?
Physically Arnold Shwarzenegger might look a bit like our Odysseus. But the personality doesn't match.
How about Roger Moore-he of James Bond fame?

This is an aberrant thought. Why does Athena spruce up Odysseus for the Princess?. I did imagine that scene like a movie set and the actor playing Odysseus spending two or three hours with the make up lady.

[Frybabe]

The Kirk Douglas movie was called Ulysses (circa 1954).
Armand Assante did a TV mini series back around 1996 or so. I did not see it.
Sean Bean played Odysseus in Troy.
Warner Brothers apparently is going to make Odysseus. Last date I saw was 2012. There doesn't appear to be any info on whether or not anyone was signed for it yet. Ann Peacock (Chronicles of Narnia) wrote the screenplay. The director is Johnathan Liebesman whose latest release is the scifi, Battle: Los Angeles and is also listed for an upcoming remake of Clash of the Titans.

[JoanK]

HI, ANNA! great to see you here.

DANA: Russel Crowe did a good job as a sailor in Master and Commander as Jack Aubrey. I'm not sure I could see him in the Nausicaa scene, though.

Pat: I love that article about the ships. The author seemed as taken with O's raft as we are. And I'm glad to understand the steering oar. I don't quite see why you wouldn't need one even if you knew the way.

And the square sails were a handicap to all early sailing. We take for granted that sailing ships can go in any direction by tacking. But then, they had to go where the wind took them. And the wind DO take them.

I hadn't quite realized til I read that article that there was noplace to sleep on the large boats. if the rowers wanted to rest, they had to pull the boat ashore. This makes sense in an area of many islands: wouldn't do for exploration far from shore. Were the Viking ships like that too?

[JoanK]

I'll bet there are more cultures where it is considered perfectly ok for men to cry than ours. I don't know, but I'll bet we're the minority. Even cultures who have stronger ideas that men must be "macho", don't consider crying over tragedy a loss of macho-ness.

Having worked for years as a woman in a man's fielfd, I agree with BABI. There was a time when women, to be taken seriously, had to be as "macho" as the men. you wouldn't dare cry at work! I see that's not completely over.

[PatH]

This is an aberrant thought. Why does Athena spruce up Odysseus for the Princess?. I did imagine that scene like a movie set and the actor playing Odysseus spending two or three hours with the make up lady.

Tee hee, Jude, I like it for a spoof movie.  I don't think Athena was sprucing him up just for Nausicaa, though.  He had to impress the Phaeacians, especially Alcinous and Arete, enough so they would give him the help he needed.  Nausicaa was impressed though, leading to a touching moment.  After the games, Odysseus has been bathed and clothed, and is striding to the banquet.

                                             "Nausicaa,
Beautiful as only the gods could make her,
Stood by the doorpost of the great hall.
Her eyes went wide when she saw Odysseus,
And her words beat their way to him on wings:

'Farewell, stranger, and remember me
In your own native land.  I saved your life.'"

Odysseus promises that he will pray to her as to a god.

The painting by Lord Leighton Hunt in the heading captures this very well (even if it's totally of its own time), the beautiful young woman looking wistfully at something more splendid than anything she can have.

[roshanarose]

PatH - Thank you for that link about Ancient Greek ships.  It was quite fascinating.

The quote Ginny gave describing the Phaecian ships has set me to thinking.  (ooooh it hurts).  If the ship had no need to be steered (rowed) why did Alcinous send 52 oarsmen who would be obsolete.  Knowing of Poseidon's threat would he risk so many good men?  
 
Part of Ginny's quote:

so that our ships
May take you there, finding their way by their wits.
For Phaecian ships do not have pilots,
Nor steering oars, as other ships have.
They know on their own their passenger's thoughts,

Another interesting item in PatH's link was regarding the "Argo", Jason and the Argonauts' ship.  Athena must have liked Jason too.  The way the "Argo" is fitted out bears a resemblance to the Phaecian ship.

At the prow of the ship Athena fitted in a "speaking" timber from the oak of Dodona, which would advise the Argonauts on the right course. In fact, that "speaking " timber ("Koraki" in the Hellenic nautical terminology) operated like a compass, and it corresponded to the North while the steering oar ("Diaki" in the Hellenic nautical terminology) to the South. The imaginary line between the steering oar and the "speaking" timber extended towards a certain point of the horizon-which was determined by the positions of stars (I.E. the Pole Star)- enabled the Captain to trace the course of the ship approximately

The Phaecians are not like other people as Nausicaa points out.  Could Odysseus be hallucinating?  He sleeps the entire journey home and wakes up in Ithaca.  There is no doubt that the Phaecians are "different".  Maybe their home is some sort of Utopia.  It could possibly be Atlantis with that type of advanced technology, such as the ship and the dogs.  The Phaecians originally inhabited Amorgos, but left there because of their close proximity to Cyclops.  Many historians have placed Phaecia on Corfu (ancient Corcya) but because this island is so close to Ithaca it is unlikely that the Phaecians would not have heard of Odysseus.

 

[JudeS]

Fascinated by the drawings by Flaxman I went to his Google Site and from there to another and another site. Finally found something I must share with you.  This poem by Robert Graves:

Odysseus
His wiles were witty and his fame far known,
Every king's daughter sought him for her own.
   Yet he was nothing to be won or lost.
   All lands to him were Ithaca:loved tossed
He loathed the fraud,yet would not bed alone.

And now from a man named G.E.Dimock Jr:who says that the best single word translation of the Greek verb odyssasthai is"trouble".Odysseus is the recipient of trouble and its cause. Is this a necessary part of the human condition?

[kidsal]

From www.imdb.com
Proposed release date 2012
Clash of the Titans 2: Warner Bros. Announces Start of Production
23 March 2011 8:00 AM, PDT
Just last week, we told you about Warner Bros. Pictures and their apparent fear of putting their Gods in the forthcoming sequel to Clash of the Titans up against Lionsgate’s big-screen adaptation of The Hunger Games and moving the release date for Wrath of the Titans, directed by Jonathan Liebesman (Battle: Los Angeles, Odysseus) from March 23rd to March 30th, 2012.

Now, we have the official press release announcing the start of principal photography, and something interesting I noticed is the fact that the press release is still calling it Clash of the Titans 2, rather than the Wrath of the Titans, which was confirmed as the title by actor Liam Neeson back in December. Has the studio changed their mind on the title, or do they still think it’s a secret?

  
IN PRODUCTION

  
Status: Filming  
Start Date: March 2011
Release Date:  30 March 2012
Locations: London, England, UK  more »

 
Summary:  A decade after his heroic defeat of the monstrous Kraken, Perseus-the demigod son of Zeus-is attempting to live a quieter life as a village fisherman and the sole parent to his 10-year old son, Helius. Meanwhile, a struggle for supremacy rages between the gods and the Titans. Dangerously weakened by humanity's lack of devotion, the gods are losing control of the imprisoned Titans and their ferocious leader, Kronos, father of the long-ruling brothers Zeus, Hades and Poseidon. The triumvirate had overthrown their powerful father long ago, leaving him to rot in the gloomy abyss of Tartarus, a dungeon that lies deep within the cavernous underworld. Perseus cannot ignore his true calling when Hades, along with Zeus' godly son, Ares (Edgar Ramírez), switch loyalty and make a deal with Kronos to capture Zeus. The Titans' strength grows stronger as Zeus' remaining godly powers are siphoned, and hell is unleashed on earth. Enlisting the help of the warrior Queen Andromeda (Rosamund Pike), Poseidon's demigod son, Argenor (Toby Kebbell), and fallen god Hephaestus (Bill Nighy), Perseus bravely embarks on a treacherous quest into the underworld to rescue Zeus, overthrow the Titans and save mankind.
Summary written by Warner Bros. Pictures

 Liam Neeson ... Zeus
 Gemma Arterton ... Io  
 Ralph Fiennes ... Hades  
 Sam Worthington ... Perseus  
 Bill Nighy ... Hephaestus  
 Rosamund Pike ... Andromeda  
 Danny Huston ... Poseidon  
 Édgar Ramírez ... Ares  
 Toby Kebbell ... Agenor


 
 

[Babi]

JUDE, I assumed Athena cleaned up Odysseus for the princess because she didn't want
him to frighten the poor girl. Not only for the girl's sake, but also because she was
needed as Odysseus entree to the royal court.
 
  Actually, I think Russell Crowe is a good idea, JOANK. I have always found him to be
very versatile, able to successfully take on a number of very different roles.

 I don't know whether trouble is necessary, Jude, (tho' I believe it is), but it is
certainly unavoidable!

  For those who enjoyed Bettany Hughes biography of Helen of Troy,  you may be interested
to know she has a new book, this one on Socrates.  The title is "The Hemlock Cup: Socrates,
Athens and the Search for the Good Life."  The Smithsonian interviewed her for their April
issue.  Even in the interview I learned things about Socrates I had never known before.  Did
you know that for most of his life Socrates was a soldier?!  Sounds like the book is going to
be a good one.

[roshanarose]

babi - Thanks for the info about Bettany Hughes' new book about Socrates.

I can't see Russell Crowe as Odysseus.  He is neither quick or cunning.  Daniel Craig perhaps?

kidsal - Thanks for the news regarding Clash of the Titans Part 2.  I personally think the movie would be better with another actor playing Perseus.  Although a fellow countryman, I didn't like Sam Worthington in the role of Perseus.

[PatH]

Was the 2010 "Clash of the Titans" any good?  I've only seen the 1981 version, which was extremely bad, to the point of being funny.

[JoanK]

JUDE: love the poem.

" Is this [trouble] a necessary part of the human condition?"

Apparently the greeks thought so. "man is born to trouble as the sparks fly upward" Aeschulus.

The Buddists thing so to. When you escape trouble, you escape the wheel of life.

What do you all think?

[JudeS]

Frybabe
Thanks for the name and date of the movie. Its going onto my Netflix Quo.

Joan K re: trouble
The more you want , the more trouble you get. Even people who want very little have troubles. Odyssseus is so ambitous and has such adventures that his pile of troubles is large if not gigantic.  The whole epic idea is how this fellow beats all the
troubles and comes out on top . Like all good adventure stories the reader has to wonder "How is he gonna get out of this one?" When he does beat the next foe or monster or sneaky villain we say Thank goodness! He sure is clever or strong or talented. He is our HERO !!
Part of the greatness of this Odyssey is that the Hero not only overcomes  impossible odds but in doing so understands himself and the world around him a lot better. Every Hero after this was patterned on this brilliant plot. From Gulliver to Robinson Crusoe to Captain Kirk all are Odysseus in different garb.

[ginny]

Man o man, what great posts here. It's a pleasure and joy to read. I have been  slogging in the underworld of computer problems, email problems, 4 days straight of storms and satellite malfunctions, am beginning to feel like Odysseus myself hahahaa (without the tears), but there does appear to be a light at the end of the tunnel without a train whistle.

I love my new I Phone App Quiz Quiz Quiz. Last night when I just gave up on gmail for good, I played a few Trivia Games to get my mind off it. (If O had had an I Phone I suspect he'd have been a lot happier and more engaged). There were categories like Latin, and Epics and Ancient Greece, and under the latter was the following question: In which book of the Odyssey does Odysseus meet Nausicaa?

Would you believe that? They gave as answers 4, 6, 8, and 9. I felt particularly smart, especially after missing how many works by Sophocles are extant?

So this  is doing us good!


I have also been floating  in the throes of academe with the scholarly article by Bruce Heiden on the book divisions of the Odyssey which proves several points: as we are an educational group here in quest of learning I'll poorly dare to  paraphrase some of  his points:

(1) Absolute tons of scholars, all footnoted and quoted, almost all of whom are well known and respected,  are totally and unequivocally at variance with each  other, and almost all of them disagree on the reason the Odyssey is in books and who put them in. Occasionally 2 or 3 will agree on one facet. This article was written in 2000.

(2) The Odyssey or Iliad may in fact NOT have been performed at one sitting. There may have not only been intermissions, they may have lasted until the next day.

This, to me,  is a bombshell.   What have I been thinking all this time, that they sat there for days upon days (how long would it take to read this?) while the poor bard carried on with no potty breaks or food? Apparently this is well known, it's thrown in at the end almost in passing (but with tons of citation). In fact he says that recitation  of several "stages" without pauses is unlikely and cites another scholarly piece.

So it's probable apparently that there were pauses.


Did you realize this?

Here's a poor summary of what he explains on the divisions into books, with many charts proving his points and a million citations and explanations. I love reading this stuff.

(1)The book divisions make comprehension of the plot easier.  They mark important junctures of plot.
(2) The Odyssey has "stages" which mark the routes upon which the characters proceed to their goals.
(3) The scenes preceded by "segment markers" are those which begin a stage.
(4) The scenes followed by segment markers usually anticipate a stage. It may not be the next stage but it's coming. I assume (we do know what that makes of you and me) the "segment markers" are book beginnings or so it appears in the chart.

There appear lots of reasons why those Alexandrians credited by dividing the Odyssey  could not have done it.

He says, dismissing all the objections one by one, that there's no reason Homer himself could not have done the book divisions.

And then he lists them all and proves his point. He did lose me with Zenodotus "since he athetized the 'Shield of Achilles' in the Iliad,"  but he's way over my head anyway.

I thought this was fascinating. I wondered why the Odyssey was divided into  books and who put them there and this seems to be an intelligent and actually overwhelming presentation of the facts, as remarkable for the exhaustive research and scholars  it cites as anything else.

I thought you'd like to know these findings, anyway. I for one did NOT know there were intermissions! Duh!

[ginny]

Had to get that down before I forgot it, now to the best stuff, your thoughts.

Welcome back, Anna, we are delighted to see you, and since poetry is your field, do join us asap!

PatH, that is the most fabulous site I ever saw. I absolutely love those boats. I can't stop looking at them. I put them in my bookmark toolbar,  and a little red heart gleams out as their symbol. I love it love it love it. THANK you! So it's rudder not oars. They don't need a pilot they don't need a rudder but...RoshanaRose says: If the ship had no need to be steered (rowed) why did Alcinous send 52 oarsmen who would be obsolete.  Knowing of Poseidon's threat would he risk so many good men?  

That is an excellent question.  What do you all say to it?

Would the boat have gone without them? I mean if Alcinous wanted to speed the honored godlike guest on his way, or so he said to the gathering he called, would the guest have been speeded if nobody rowed?

This is a fascinating topic, with all kinds of ramifications, what do you all think?

I am sort of seeing Alcinous as...ingenuous. I don't think he's a plotter. He seems to ME to be a nice man who spots this impressive  guy and has a marriageable daughter and thinks oh HERE we go, stay a while, stranger, but if you must go we'll help you. He seems confident but then he has told (foreshadowing)  the strange tale, that his father told him, that one day Poseidon  (as mentioned before) would turn a ship into stone.

Maybe Alcinous is like me. Maybe he thinks it may happen someday but it can't happen to us because look we're doing all the right things.  That's the way I think, that may in fact not be the world is. And one does have to wonder why it should ever happen to them? Sandy Rose  mentioned that O had killed Poseidon's son but does Alcinous know this?

He doesn't evenh know who O IS till book 9 and the only reason he does know is he finally asks him his name. After two spells of crying (both times at the bard's reciting of Trojan/ Greek war stuff).

I'm not seeing Alcinous or the Phaecians, as strange as they are, in any guilt here whatsoever, are you all?

Alcinous told him in Chapter 7 they would row him out, a royal send off wherever on earth he wants to go. He distinctly mentions rowers in 7. Maybe you can have rowers and no pilot or rudder if you have a magic ship?

I don't know!

What do the rest of you think about Alcinous and the rowers?

____________________________________

Babi this is an interesting point:   That said, I am amazed at the richness of the gifts that are given to a stranger about whom they know nothing whatsoever.  What if Odysseus were a shipwrecked pirate, a spy, or any other type of man that they would be more likely to jail than feed?

Now Sally talked about hospitality but suddenly I'm realizing what happened at the end, so we need to watch I guess for those who don't offer hospitality (the Phaecians almost didn't!) or don't seem to abide by the rules of xenia, the  Greek concept of hospitality to one away from home.  And I'm not sure in this one where he's challenged by Laodamas (does that name have any particular significance?) if that counts as lack of hospitality. I don't think Poseidon cares about hospitality much.

Too long too long,. why can't I be succinct?!

[ginny]

A lot of contrasts in this chapter.

Odysseus has said what he thinks is the most important thing for a man, now Laodamus somewhere around 160 or so says:

For there is no greater glory a man can win in life
Than the glory he wins with his hands and feet.

That's somewhat different from what O said. O is a major war hero, already proven.

Even O asks him, "Laodamas, why do you provoke me like this?"

Why DO you think he has?

And then here comes Euryalus.  He says, "no, you're no athlete."

O says to him somewhere around 182:

"That's a reckless thing to say, stranger,
And it makes you look like a reckless fool."

..and later in this same speech:

"Your looks
Are outstanding. Not even a god
Could improve them. But your mind is crippled."

What's going on here? Why have these two come out and challenged O,  and most importantly, why has Alcinous not stepped in here? Is this hospitality?

[sandyrose]

Pat, I loved the boat article, thanks for the link.

Ginny, thanks for the list of reasons for the book divisions.

[ginny]

 Sandy, we were posting together, but I did finally manage to credit you with your own quote! You  are so funny on the "clean" thing,   squeaky clean instead of oil. I had not thought what somebody who was oiled might look like. (Kind of like some people who tan with baby oil I expect, shiny)? That used to be a very popular look.

Jude, that was a beautiful post. We should put it in the heading. You've captured beautifully the whole thing:. Like all good adventure stories the reader has to wonder "How is he gonna get out of this one?" When he does beat the next foe or monster or sneaky villain we say Thank goodness! He sure is clever or strong or talented. He is our HERO !!
Part of the greatness of this Odyssey is that the Hero not only overcomes  impossible odds but in doing so understands himself and the world around him a lot better. Every Hero after this was patterned on this brilliant plot. From Gulliver to Robinson Crusoe to Captain Kirk all are Odysseus in different garb.

My mother used to recite a poem about Poor Pauline. I can do it to this day. It was about the cliff hangers, what did they used to call them of the early movies? They'd get the hero hanging off a cliff or something and then stop till the next week? There's a name for it but I can't recall it. (Could it be cliff hangers? hahaha) At any rate this is a type of plot well appreciated by the ages.

Joan K: The Buddhists think so too. When you escape trouble, you escape the wheel of life. Does that mean you die or you are not fully alive? (Lombardo is a Buddhist).

Babi where is the article about Bettany Hughes in the April Smithsonian? When I saw your post I snatched the magazine  up because I had been so engrossed in the Capri article I missed it initially and I still don't see it?

Frybabe and Sally, thank you for the movie information, the ancients are HOT HOT HOT. I'd like now to SEE a movie on Odysseus just out of curiosity. Robert Harris' Pompeii is supposedly still in production too.

Talking about other media, don't forget  The Lost Books of the Odyssey by Zachary Mason. It's new and has had tons of exciting  reviews. It's small and short.

 JoanR here read it and really enjoyed it.  It's fiction and Mason has invented "alternative episodes, fragments and revisions of Homer's original that taken together, open up this classic Greek myth to endless reverberating interpretations....great wit, beauty and playfulness." (From the book jacket).

RoshanaRose asked could O be hallucinating?  I think that's another excellent question and apparently Mason has offered three more\ possible interpretations also.  I think it sounds like a super clever read.   (I am thinking you'd want to know the real thing first, so you may want to wait to read it.)

Jude you went to the Flaxman site? I didn't know he had one. I must investigate.  That's a great poem.

Why is the Ares/ Aphrodite/ Hephaestus story here, O does not cry at this, you all are  right,  he enjoys it. What's the point of it?

 Hephaestus is the cuckolded husband. He comes home to find Ares in bed with his wife.  He had set a trap ("as fine as cobwebs") of unbreakable chains and caught them.  And all the gods are laughing. And H says he'll get back his wedding gifts from her father and Ares talks him into letting them go.

? huh? Is this just light entertainment? O likes it, because....?

Knowing that somebody could outline this book by book makes me want to look more at the plot and figure out which elements are meaningful and which are not. Why is this scene in here?

[roshanarose]

PatH - asked was the latest "Clash of the Titans" any good?  It took itself much more seriously than the first "Clash" which I adored.  Sam Worthington is great until he opens his mouth in the last movie.  Even I, who am used to the Australian accent, felt it grated in that setting.  So this spoilt the role of the hero, Perseus, for me.  I suppose he looks the part, but....

Perseus and his followers do have some excellent adventures, and it needs to be said that the movie is worth seeing for the scenes with Medusa alone.

I have to 'fess up and say the highlight for me in the last "Clash" was Mads Mikkelsen, who plays Perseus' 2IC. His face is quite extraordinary, and although he is Danish, he is one of those actors who "fits" well in any movie role, and seemed perfect as the baddie in Casino Royale (the one who plays high stakes poker with our James and nearly kills him).  I do attempt to watch every movie he makes, he is just so magnetic.  I don't remember him saying much in "Clash" and he only smiles once:  he tells you when he will have something to smile about.  As a piece of trivia he also learned ballet for some time.  His body and movement bear witness to this.

Despite my likes and dislikes I enjoyed the movie.  The effects are quite extraordinary and if you love Greek mythology you should enjoy it for the telling alone.

Ginny - Your posts included some very interesting aspects.  It will take me some time to "digest" all of it.  I have been looking for a book that analyses "The Odyssey".  I will probably have to go to the University library to find one and read it in situ.

Sam aka Perseus www.imdb.com/name/nm0941777
Mads Mikkelsen www.yahoo.com/movie/contributor/1800360188/bio

[PatH]

I'm sure the Phaeacian ships had to be rowed, whether or not they needed the steering oar (which wasn't used for rowing).    At the start of book 8, Alcinous is ordering a ship to be made ready for Odysseus so he can leave quickly, and says:

"When you have lashed the oars well at the benches,
Disembark, and hurry to my house...."

A few lines later, they

"Fit the oars into the leather thole-straps"

So they expected to row.

[PatH]

OK, Roshanarose, "Clash 2010" goes on my Netflix list.

[PatH]

Jude, that was a particularly brilliant summing up of the universal adventure story plot.

[roshanarose]

PatH - I have added two links to my post about "Clash".  One for Sam and one for Mads.  Hope you enjoy the movie 

[PatH]

Your Mads link didn't work, but I worked through the stuff on IMDB.  That's the kind of good looks I particularly like.  I see he's also in an about to be released version of the "Three Musketeers" that looks pretty strange, and he played Igor Stravinsky in the recent movie about S. and Coco Chanel.  He sure doesn't look much like Stravinsky, but I can just imagine how he could morph his expression and pull it off.

I agree with you about Perseus.

[roshanarose]

PatH - Stravinsky and Chanel movie not so good.  Mads is great in "The Wedding Party", if you like his looks mmmmm you will like him in The Wedding Party.  It has a good storyline and his costars are good as well.  It is a Danish movie.

[ginny]

While we're all mulling over the latest questions, etc., in Book 8 (or ordering washboards, which ever suits, I really want one, isn't that stupid? I wonder if our fabrics today can stand up to the stress or if, as Sandyrose said, we'll rub holes in them), I'd like to make a point about the field of Classics scholarship in general.

In post 1102 I posted  a poorly paraphrased  article by Heiden on the origin of Books in the Odyssey. In it he must reference and not only by name but by position 28 other scholars who cordially differ in opinion. I haven't counted them but there are literally tons of them. Now his voice is added to the others, some of whom go a long way back.

This is what it is in Classics. This is normal. There are always opposing viewpoints with renowned scholars, this IS what it is.

It's good to hear the opinions of X. But he's not Moses and the tablets. That's his opinion.  Y may have the same credentials and think completely the opposite. Z may have  come to a completely different conclusion. Just because we take the time to read one, that does not make HIS opinion written in the clouds, he's one of many which add to our overall understanding. We NEED to have as many as we can.

Almost every museum of Roman antiquity has little labels on things which go something like "it was once thought that ... but now..."

that does not mean, however, that in every instance  what's thought NOW is better, either.

In  Classics  you get used to opposing viewpoints. It's the norm. It has nothing to do with us reading it or reporting it here, it IS what it IS. Not to know some of them is a shame, but we need more than one voice on a subject.

I've put Heidens. There are at least 27 more from equally erudite scholars, which say something else. Neither he nor any of the rest of them are The Second Coming.

So we  must, if we're going to READ something this old, get used to different submissions of different opposing viewpoints. If opposing viewpoints do not upset scholars  writing in the field, if the Lombardos of the world are not upset by the differences in the Fagles translations and vice versa, then we also need to be open to different ideas which may differ diametrically from scholar to scholar.

If we can't do that, we can't read the ancients. This is standard operating procedure. It is what it is. And it makes it SO rich to get more than one view.

[Babi]

 ROSHANA, having seen Russell Crowe in many different roles, I am persuaded he could
play 'quick and cunning' with the best of them.

  JOANK, I can't tell you how intrigued I was when I first learned that the writer of
Job had quoted Aeschylus! I have always been persuaded that Job..though the story was
very old...had not actually been written until after the captivity and followed the
Greek format for presentation.

If the ship had no need to be steered (rowed) why did Alcinous send 52 oarsmen who would be obsolete.  Knowing of Poseidon's threat would he risk so many good men?

 
 I will venture a reply. The steering oar was to give the ship it's direction. It did
not propel the ship. You still need the oarsmen for that, even it the ship supposedly
knew where to go on its own.

 The questions about the challenges of Laodamas and Euryalus are certainly valid. I
find myself wondering if possibly the atmosphere of competition in the games permitted
such challenges, without violating hospitality?

  On another issue, of the cleaning with oil, I was always under the impression that the
oil, along with any deep grime it loosened, was scraped away. And certainly the oil was
important in keeping the skin hydrated in those hot southern climes.

 GINNY, The article is early on, one page, about pg. 16 or thereabouts. It's listed in
table of contents.

[Dana]

Perhaps Odysseus is being challenged because he hasn't told them who he is--he drags it out thru the whole chapter, Alkinoos asks several times but does not press as that would not be polite, but he ought to have told them after he was first fed, he's dragging it out to make an impact I think (an example of his deviousness?), and I think maybe the son and Eurylaus just get a bit miffed with this mysterious stranger....

[ginny]

Dana,  this is good! but he ought to have told them after he was first fed, he's dragging it out to make an impact I think (an example of his deviousness?), and I think maybe the son and Eurylaus just get a bit miffed with this mysterious stranger....

I got the miffed impression also, I thought it was because he was sighing and crying but apparently not,  or so the text keeps saying nobody noticed by Alcinous.

Of course it's normal to not give his name until he's wined and dined and bathed, I had missed Alcinous's asking him more than once!!!  Was there anything that caused him, an interruption or something not to answer when he was first asked? I must reread!

Still he must have had somewhat of a hang dog expression. Or maybe they were so busy feasting as we've said, nobody noticed.

Babi, what are you referring to here?
GINNY, The article is early on, one page, about pg. 16 or thereabouts. It's listed in
table of contents.

[JoanR]

Thanks for the "nudge", Ginny!  I've been horribly remiss about posting mostly because I am so enthralled with all the wonderful discussion here and, since I already know what I think, I am more interested in that which others are thinking.  There's also the fact that I'm a hunt & peck typist, thus am rather slow.

Re: Lost Books of the Odyssey by Mason - it was some time ago that I read it & I had not yet read Homer.  Now I really must go right back to the library and check it out again - it will be much more meaningful the second time around.

Why in the Odyssey are there 24 books?  My thought is that the earliest written version was on papyrus scrolls.  These are more brittle than vellum and if too much was on a scroll the repeated rolling & unrolling of it would damage the scroll. Therefor the epic was divided into 24 parts.  Just guessing!

I love the way it is written in flashbacks.  The structure is so sophisticated that it's hard to believe in its age!  Very effective.

Crying:  Isn't it only in our Anglo-American tradition that we have the "stiff upper lip"?  We're more likely to find both sexes weeping in other cultures.
 It was heartbreaking to visualize O. weeping on the shore of Calypso's island having been rendered captive and helpless by her spell.  He was only human whereas she was at least partly if not wholly one of the Olympians.

There is a film by Miyazaki, "Nausicaa", about the princess of the last habitable little valley on earth, which is the only place I've ever seen that name other than in the Odyssey.  Her realm and that of the Phaeacians (sp?) are both isolated and different from the rest of the world. Homer must surely be studied in Japan.

[JudeS]

Joan R
I very much agree with the idea of the Vellum scrolls. I picture the audience sitting around the raised platform where Homer is reading and watching him unfold the scroll until its end. Then its time to eat and drink and do whatever they did at these feasts.
They are awaiting the next scroll. Perhaps he will read it in an hour or perhaps tomorrow. We want to know what happens to our hero.
The  idea that this is so came to me because of our expression-THE STORY UNFOLDS.  It is the scroll that unfolds.