Classics Book Club, The

[ginny]

Welcome to

The Classics Book Club,  a forum for reading in translation  those timeless classics written by ancient authors you always meant to get around to but never have. We've done the Iliad, and the Odyssey.....but what of the Aeneid?  Aeschylus? Euripides?  Plutarch?

Cleopatra is all the rage currently, with two new books and a claim her palace in Alexandria has just been found, she's hot. Why? Do what Shakespeare did and read the original sources, a world of incredible fascination and insights awaits.

We'll begin discussing and nominating the contenders January 1, we'll vote January 15 for one week and we'll begin discussing part of the book (which you'll determine first) February 15.

 Bring all your background materials, we'll desperately need them,  and join us on an unforgettable enriching adventure! Dust off those old moldy books you always intended to read and join our merry band of adventurers in our new venture: The Classics Book Club, coming January 1!

Everyone is welcome! 

 

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny 

[ginny]

Gosh, that IS a story, so much better than I remembered, and what handwriting!!!! I thought  mine was bad. You'd need a course in handwriting analysis just to read it, but the story there would make a great book, where is Dan Brown when you need him? hahahaa Thank you PatH and JoanK! Our own classical mystery here, love it.

I thought when I looked at it,  it would be like trying to decipher hieroglyphics and that reminded me of the new Schiff on Cleopatra, in which, I hate to say it, I AM learning a lot.

Her statements are fiercely attributed but without footnotes for the most part (which is good since just about every word is attributed), but then the ones that are not, her own ? conclusions, are thrown in too. This makes for slow and quizzical reading.

For instance: Greek was not favored among the early Roman Republic. Of Cleopatra's Latin, nothing is known, it's thought she and Julius  Caesar spoke Greek, as they were educated in a similar manner.

(page 34ff):  "A generation earlier, a good Roman had avoided Greek wherever possible, going to far even as to feign ignorance.. 'The better one gets to know Greek,' went the wisdom, 'the more a scoundrel  one becomes.' It was the tongue  of high art and low morals, the dialect of sex manuals, a language 'with fingers of its own,.' The Greeks covered all bases, noted a later scholar, 'including some I should not care to explain in class.' Caesar's generation, which perfected its education in Greece or  or under Greek -speaking  tutors, handled both languages  with equal  finesse.... " (this is all attributed in footnotes by a dizzying amount of names,  and now we have)..."with Greek--by far the richer, the more nuanced, the more subtle,  sweet, and obliging tongue--forever supplying  the mot juste." From the time of Cleopatra's birth, an educated Roman was a master of both."

Ok here the bolded part is not attributed. Whose opinion is it? Hers? She actually throws in a parallel of French in the US.

You can't help but learn something you did not know from it; however,  you need something to take notes with, too. I even see the B.L. Ullman referenced as a source, who wrote the text book we use in some of our Latin classes.

It's pretty impressive, actually, for the sheer amount of scholarship quoted.  I bet it took her a long time to write.
 HO ho ho, everyone is welcome, grab a seat and hang ON! The ancients are HOT HOT HOT!

[roshanarose]

Ginny - No doubt you know that the name Cleopatra is actually Greek.  She was the last of the Ptolemy line.  Ptolemy was Greek and one of the generals that Alexander the Great left in Alexandria after his death.  Cleopatra, I am guessing, would have been learned in Egyptian, Latin and most certainly Greek.

[ginny]

Well I can say now (but could not have before this book),  that she was well versed in 9 languages, but among them Latin is not listed, Schiff  says "Plutarch is silent" on this issue,  nor is her grasp of it  known. She did apply herself to Egyptian, however. "She was allegedly the first and only Ptolemy to bother to learn the language of the 7 million people over whom she ruled." (page 34)

Her lineage is exhaustively chronicled as well: interesting trivia bits: she was not the first  Cleopatra, nor was she the 7th as noted. Actually I am somewhat astounded, thus far, in what I DO know,  thanks only  to this book. Our Cambridge Latin series II does take up a lot about Alexandria, too.

 My goodness such inbreeding among the Ptolemies.  I must see Alexandria!  I am going to REALLY recommend this book, if for no other reason (and this is probably why it's getting so much buzz: the exhaustive references, the good writing, and the fact that you seem to know something when you've only read a few pages hhahaa). It truly IS  pretty amazing what you seem to know after spending a little time with it.

[pedln]

Reflecting on the deaths of Richard Holbrook and Mark Madoff,NYT columnists David Brooks and Gail Collins talk about a modern-day Greek drama.

A Modern-Day Greek Drama

[JoanR]

Well, I am convinced!
  I just ordered "Cleopatra" from Amazon!  I will be surrounded by good things to read since I received "The Classic Tradition" last week for my birthday and had acquired  vol.1 of the Mark Twain bio. the week before.  "The Classic Tradition" is a wonderful book - you could spend many hours with it just looking various things up and the sections of illustrations are lovely.  On top of all that, I have the Chagall iluustrated "Daphnis and Chloe" right in front of me covering up a huge section of the desk!  Needless to say, I haven't written one single Christmas card nor baked a cookie  -  SO, off to get out the cards!!!!!!
 But thanks for persuading me to order "Cleopatra"!

I read the Brooks-Collins talk, Pedln - very good - thanks for the link.

[Mippy]

Hi, and a big Thanks  to Ginny and JoanK  for setting up this new Book Adventure!

I'll try to join in if I am able, but I'll certainly read these posts with interest!

I'm in the middle of the new Cleopatra book, and I hope this is not our choice.   There are flaws in this best seller.
        
Stacey Schiff is not my idea of a true historian, with all her digressions to
               ...  sunset  of a ...  color   or   Cleopatra dressed in ...                                                    
In other words, she sometimes strays into writing historical fiction, not history.   I do think the book is fun to read!
                                                                                                                    
I cannot help thinking that she was striving for a best seller.   Well, she did it, but we ought to read Plutarch (is that possible, Ginny?)  rather than read what she said Plutarch wrote.

Sorry for going on and on ...   caveat emptor on Schiff's Cleopatra.

[ginny]

Welcome, Mippy!  Oh sure we can read anything and anybody, we'll start taking nominations and discussing potential reads January 1, and anything and anybody is eligible.  Whatever we read most of us including me will be reading in translation, but WHOSE translation is the key.  Perhaps some of us will be able to study the original and bring that to the table, I hope we can have 20 different translators per whatever we read.

Golly that makes three of us reading (or about to read Joan Cleopatra. Don't you find it amazing, Mippy, how much you seem to know about her (but are they all valid conclusions or not?) after reading it?  I think we'd have to compare Plutarch's (Dryden translation?)  and Goldsworth's Cleopatra first. And there are others, too.

 It does make you think, Mippy, about historians (which Schiff is not, she's  a biographer) but if you look at the back references, say, on even something like page 34, you'll see she is actually pretty much doing the work of an historian, summarizing  in every sentence what others have said. Juvenal, Quintilian, Plutarch, the names roll on and on, she would have to footnote almost every word (and I'm glad she hasn't).  She's done the research for us,  but she DOES add her own take on things. The business about Greek by far the most...is apparently hers. At least it's unattributed.   For comparison we need to try to penetrate Goldsworthy who hasn't her way with words.

But this brings up the issue of translators and their interpretations. I finally found this comparison I did a couple of years ago when we were contemplating the Aeneid, and I think it's still valid, on how different writers have seen the Aeneid for instance.

You'd think the  Aeneid would be pretty straightforward, wouldn't you? It's Latin and arma virumque  cano seems  pretty clear, but just LOOK at the different takes on the beginning of it:

AENEID 1-12:


arma virumque cano, Troiae qui primus ab oris
Italiam fato profugus Laviniaque venit
litora, multum ille et terris iactatus et alto
vi superum, saevae memorem Iunonis ob iram,
multa quoque et bello passus, dum conderet urbem
inferretque deos Latio; genus unde
Albanique patres atque altae moenia Romae.
Musa, mihi causas memora, quo numine laeso
quidve dolens regina deum tot volvere
insignem pietate virum, tot adire labores
impulerit. tantaene animis caelestibus irae?

Here's what it looked like to the  Romans:

 (If an ancient Greek or Roman could read eight pages an hour, he knew those eight pages intimately, perfectly. There was no skim-reading, no tricks of speed-reading. They were free to hear and enjoy their poetry):

ARMAVIRUMQUECANOTROIAEQUIPRIMUSABORIS
ITALIAMFATOPROFUGUSLAVINIAQUEVENIT
LITORA,MULTUMILLEETTERRISIACTATUSETALTO
VISUPERUMSAEVAEMEMOREMIUNONISOBIRAM
MULTAQUOQUEETBELLOPASSUSDUMCONDERETURBEM
INFERRETQUEDEOSLATIOGENUSUNDE
ALBANIQUEPATRESATQUEALTAEMOENIAROMAE
MUSAMIHICAUSASMEMORAQUONUMINELAESO
QUIDVEDOLENSREGINADEUMTOTVOLVERE
INSIGNEMPIETATEVIRUMTOTADIRELABORES
IMPULERITTANTAENEANIMISCAELESTIBUSIRAE




A person's translation is unique, like his signature. A translator brings to his translation who he is, his background and his way of seeing things.  Even a literal translation in chunks may differ among readers.

Here is John Dryden's translation:

Arms, and the man I sing, who, forc'd by fate,
And haughty Juno's unrelenting hate,
Expell'd and exil'd, left the Trojan shore.
Long labors, both by sea and land, he bore,
And in the doubtful war, before he won
The Latian realm, and built the destin'd town;
His banish'd gods restor'd to rites divine,
And settled sure succession in his line,
From whence the race of Alban fathers come,
And the long glories of majestic Rome.
O Muse! the causes and the crimes relate;
What goddess was provok'd, and whence her hate;
For what offense the Queen of Heav'n began
To persecute so brave, so just a man;
Involv'd his anxious life in endless cares,
Expos'd to wants, and hurried into wars!
Can heav'nly minds such high resentment show,
Or exercise their spite in human woe?

Robert Fitzgerald:



Robert Fagles:



Stanley Lombardo:



Theodore C. Williams:

Arms and the man I sing, who first made way,
predestined exile, from the Trojan shore
to Italy, the blest Lavinian strand.
Smitten of storms he was on land and sea
by violence of Heaven, to satisfy
stern Juno's sleepless wrath; and much in war
he suffered, seeking at the last to found
the city, and bring o'er his fathers' gods
to safe abode in Latium; whence arose
the Latin race, old Alba's reverend lords,
and from her hills wide-walled, imperial Rome.


Allen Mandelbaum:




Here's  a  list of translators of the Aeneid.  Like the Odyssey, Vergil's (or Virgil's) Aeneid has been translated many times into English, from the era of the English Renaissance until today. The translators have been the following (with form as V = verse, BV = blank verse, P = prose, along with the date of the translation; asterisk indicates particularly important translation):

Thomas May;
Gavin Douglas (V, 1553)
Robert Singleton (V, 1855)
H. Rushton Fairclough* (P, 1916, 1932)
Thomas Phaer and Thomas Twyne (V, 1573)
John Miller (BV, 1863)
John Jackson (1921)
John Vicars (V, 1632)
John Rose (1867)
Frank Richards (1928)
John Ogilby (1649)
John Conington* (V, 1867)
Rolfe Humphries* (BV, 1951)
John Dryden* (V, 1693-1700)
Christopher Cranch (BV, 1872, 1886)   
C. Day Lewis* (BV, 1952)
Richard Lauderdale (1700)   
W. Lucas Collins (1874)   
Kevin Guinagh* (P, 1953)
Nicholas Brady (BV, 1716)   
Henry Pierce (P, 1879, 1883)   
W.F. Jackson Knight* (P, 1956, 1958)
Joseph Trapp (BV, 1720, 1731)   
Thomas Burt (BV, 1883)   
Patric Dickinson* (BV, 1961)
Christopher Pitt (1731, 1753)
John Wilstach (V, 1884)
 L.R. Lind* (BV, 1962)
Joseph Davidson (P, 1743)
J[ohn] W[illiam] Mackail* (1885)
James H. Mantinband (1964)
Robert Andrews (1766)   
William Thornhill (BV, 1886)
Frank Copley* (BV, 1965, 1975)
Alexander Strahan (BV, 1767)\A. Hamilton Bryce (1894)   
Allen Mandelbaum* (BV, 1971)
William Melmoth (1790)    
John Conington and J.A. Symonds* (V, 18uu)
Robert Fitzgerald* (BV, 1983)
James Beresford (BV, 1794)
John Long (1900)
C.H. Sisson* (BV, 1986)
 Caleb Alexander (P, 1796)
Charles Billson* (BV, 1906)   
David West* (P, 1991)
Charles Symmons (1817)   
Michael Oakley* (1907)   
Edward McCrorie* (BV, 1995)
Levi Hart and V.R. Osborn (P, 1833)   
James Rhoades (V, 1907, 1921)
Richard S. Caldwell (BV, 2004)
J.M. King (1847)   Edward Taylor (1907)   
 G.B. Cobbold (P, 2005)
Joseph Owgan (P, 1853)   
Theodore Williams (V, 1908)   
 Stanley Lombardo (BV, 2005)
George Wheeler (P, 1853)
Arthur S. Way * (V, 1916)
 Robert Fagles (BV, 2006)

In a perfect world in a perfect discussion of any ancient work in translation,  we'd have, say, for the Aeneid all these copies, and we could say, well I have the ship sailed and somebody else could say no, it says  in my copy the ship stalled and whoever might be able to read the original might say no it says XXX which means XXX and in that we could see the translator's art before deciding which we think expressed it best.

I mean the possibilities are endless really.

Welcome, Everybody!! Grab a seat by the fire, dust off that old copy on your shelves, it may be an old translation we're dying to hear, and join us!

[Frybabe]

After reading reviews about Schiff's Cleopatra and Goldsworthy's Antony and Cleopatra, I think I would rather read Goldsworthy. I have one or two of his other books.

[ginny]

I wonder if they are that different?  We can't know unless we read them.

Maybe we should read all three, Plutarch, Schiff and Goldsworthy, (I have his Antony and Cleopatra), and compare. I'm pretty sure  Goldsworthy and Schiff include other authors, I know Schiff does.  Plutarch is often not the same as others.

[Gumtree]

Wow! so many translations of Aeneid - it's amazing.  I knew there were plenty but so many? - it boggles the mind to think of comparing them all.

I can see I'm going to have to  hunt around for these Cleopatra titles. I have a copy of Ernle Bradford's Cleopatra from the 1970s which is a rather lovely presentation - lots of glossy colour photos etc. It's a quite readable biography - aimed at the general reader. Bradford saw Cleo as an intellectual and a brilliant linguist as well as an astute politician. It's years since I looked inside the covers but now I've taken it off the shelf again... h'mmm

Ginny, much and all as I love this new discussion there is no way I am going to grab a seat by any fire ... today it was around 95 F here and temperatures are rising. I'm hoping the 25th won't be 105+ but it often is. Son has managed to get halfway home without being stranded by the floods -they're idling away a day or two in South Australia's Barossa Valley -grape  country and wine making area -  before crossing the desert and should be home by 22nd or 23rd - Can't wait! 

[JoanK]

PEDLIN: interesting article. The two characteristics of the ancient greeks were ones I had noticed in my (slight) readings of them:

First that --"Being ambitions was selfish, but yearning for immortal glory was noble." This was so striking to me in the Iliad, where it motivated so much of what happened. And Homer carefully gave to each man his moment of glory.

How different is it today? Do we know people who yearn for immortal glory? Presumably our leaders and movie idols do. Do we see this as noble? Where is the line?

[JoanK]

"The suicide of Mark Madoff is like a Greek tragedy where the pain would course through families, and the sons would pay for the sins of their fathers."

Medea kills her (and his) children to get back at Jason. Does this make any sense to us today? Not only in Greek tragedies, in the old testament as well the children pay on through the generations. Does this fit our sense of justice today? What has changed?

[rosemarykaye]

Well, in this country at least many young people feel that they are paying for the financial sins of their parents - the greed and extravagance that for some people characterised the 80s is now leading to the cuts in student funding, lack of affordable housing, cuts in benefits, etc etc.

Rosemary

[roshanarose]

Joan K I have been dictionary gazing into my Liddell and Scott (Ancient Greek) and my J.T. Pring (Modern Greek)in order to find the correct translation of προγυμνασματα.  I thought that it was spelled with an eta, but was wrong.  It is spelt with an eepsilon.  Different letter, same pronunciation.  A big problem for Greek learners, as there are three "ee" sounds in Greek.  Also my PC has decided that it hates inserting Greek accents.  The ending -ματα indicates that it is a neuter plural noun, of the same noun group as stigma/stigmata.

I couldn't find the word in the Liddell and Scott, but did find it in the J.T.Pring.  Which leads me to think that it may have been Koine Greek or New Testament Greek that your father had to translate.  I don't have a Koine dictionary, but I know that Modern Greek is more similar to Koine than it is to Ancient Greek.  Anyway, back to the word - it means "before the exercises", "prior to the exercises".  

Thanks for that.  I enjoy such challenges.

[JoanK]

Ahha! So preliminary exercises gets tthe spirit. It makes sense that Descartes would have known Old testament Greek. Thank YOU for taking the time.

[roshanarose]

Παρακαλώ JoanK.  Meaning "a pleasure" or a very polite "please", depending upon context, of course.

[Babi]

 Well, since I have a dusty old copy of Plutarch on my shelf, that
would be my first choice. I'm sure I could find at least one more
when we start nominating.
  DANA, I trust 'Daphnis and Chloe' also comes in a good translation.
I confess I really can't read (or write, or speak) Greek and that
recommendation really caught me.
 

In many US universities, beginning math classes are used to weed out students. My husband taught them when he was a graduate student, and was ordered to fail a high percentage of the student

 
   JOANK, I was shocked to read that. I don't understand the purpose
of failing a high percentage of the students. Aren't they cutting
their own income? Or is it simply that they don't have the staff, etc.
to handle large numbers of upper classmen?

 So true, GUM. I have been reading 'Selections from the Classic
Historians' a bit at a time. So often I find observations that could
easily apply people, events, etc. of modern times.
  gasp  I thought I'd never catch up!  So many posts already.

[Gumtree]

gasp  I thought I'd never catch up!  So many posts already.

As I said before Babi - this discussion is going to be HOT - HOT - HOT

And it already is 

[kidsal]

Roshanarose:  Thanks for the advice.  Ordered the Reading Greek series.  Found that I can remember a little of it!  Still have the font on my desktop.

[JoanK]

BABI: "JOANK, I was shocked to read that. I don't understand the purpose
of failing a high percentage of the students. Aren't they cutting
their own income? Or is it simply that they don't have the staff, etc.
to handle large numbers of upper classmen?"

The university where he taught (I won't name it) indeed admitted more students than they had the capacity to handle, and used the math classes to "weed them out". I've heard stories that lead me to believe that other universities do this too. It is a State university -- perhaps they feel they should be open to any student in he state with a halfway decent record, but are not given enough resources to reeally handle that many.

[roshanarose]

kidsal - Good on you for buying those books.  We can soon converse in Greek here.  On some sites you are able to get an idea of what Greek letter agrees with the English letter with a keyboard guide that you can print out.  I lost mine long ago.  However, one soon learns where the Greek letters are that have no equivalent in English.  The font I use is in the language bar at the absolute bottom of the screen.

Wyoming is a part of the States I have always wanted to visit.  Please tell me a bit about where you live.

[Frybabe]

Kidsal, I had'nt noticed you are from Wyoming. My BF was stationed at several of the AF bases out there years ago. The stories he tells. He really enjoyed the area.

[roshanarose]

I wasn't quite sure upon which board to post this - but www.about.com (ancient history) has a very interesting article about Jesus' birth.  It wouldn't let me post a link, but is worth a look.  

When you get into about.com - ancient history put the following in the search box

The Star of Bethlehem and the Dating of the Birth of Jesus

[kidsal]

I have both a Greek and an Arabic font for my Rosetta Stone -- fun to watch it print from right to left.  
I live in SW Wyoming (Rock Springs).  It is in high desert -- few trees, sand dunes, wild horses, etc.  Lots of coal and trona mining, oil and gas drilling.

[roshanarose]

kidsal - Do you see Clint Eastwood often?  Pray tell - what is trona?

[Babi]

I suppose it makes sense of a sort, JOANK. And math is probably the easiest
course to set a pass/fail line.  It would be a waste of the student's time and
money also to continue where the school is unable to provide the necessary space
and attention.

[rosemarykaye]

Indeed Roshanarose - I see it as some kind of mining troll.....

R

[Gumtree]

Trona - it's a sodium compound - sodium carbonate .... heaps of it in the States - also found in Aus - NSW

[roshanarose]

Laughing at Rosemary's idea of a trona. A mining troll as the word would suggest.

Thanks Gum for explanation.

[JoanR]

It would have been a female troll, the male would be tronus!!  Too much holiday prep ! gone to my head!!!

[Gumtree]

trona / tronus    love it JoanR  - I've been neglecting the Latin this past week - better get started again - and soon!

[bookad]

hi there

its Deb here, (been mostly in the Durant book site) presently in Rockport, Texas temperature this a.m. --temperature was 47 F this morning
-interested in your 'classics group'-where does one begin when, in my situation have no previous that I am aware of readings from this area

(might find I have overlapped in my reading & been unaware)--anyway am following your threads & find it quite interesting....

I remember on our local radio station at home  --it may have been a CBC station (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation)--the broadcaster was reading 'The Iliad' and seeing if he could complete the poem/prose?? ...
Am always willing  to try a new reading endeavour

Would any of the books be available on the 'Gutenberg' site?

-meanwhile I'll just keep lurking in the shadows....

cheers

[ginny]

Bookad!! Welcome welcome welcome! What a joyful thing to see here on our Second Day of Christmas, you AND Babi, and some great repartee, I am loving all the conversations here and half afraid to post and ruin the spell! WELCOME, Everyone!

Oh I would be shocked if anything we picked was not on Project Gutenberg They say "Project Gutenberg is  the place where you can download over 33,000 free ebooks to read on your PC, iPad, Kindle, Sony Reader, iPhone, Android or other portable device." 

What a service, that  is, amazing, really, and free on Ipad and Nook and everywhere else, and what a fun prospect to fill our 2010 minds with 2010+ year old thoughts, maybe we're not as au courant and "modern" as we think we are,  OR do the ancients have nothing to offer US? We'll find out! Maybe you disagree with Horace this morning in the Newsline? IS he right? "He is not poor who has enough of things to use. If it is well with your belly, chest and feet, the wealth of kings can give you nothing more."

We don't have to agree with him even if he IS 2000 years old. On the other hand, Hammertoe City here thinks he may have a point. What do YOU think, that's what this discussion will be about!

AND we have snow here, glorious beautiful snow, a White Christmas for the first time in 47 years or so they say here in the South, and it's just absolutely gorgeous. It held off here till everybody could come and go safely and then let loose, so we had the best of all worlds, joy joy joy!
Welcome, Welcome Welcome,  Bookad, Babi, and ALL!

Welcome in, grab a chair next to the fire or sit with Gumtree and the Australians before the open fridge hahahaa and join right IN!  The weather here is fine for wherever you are!

[Frybabe]

Greetings Ginny,

Glad you are enjoying your snow. I was expecting to see some flurries by now, here, but nothing but WIND so far. We should still get an inch or three by morning.

I haven't decided on what to nominate yet. I'll probably just sit back and see what the others nominate.

[JoanK]

BOOKAD: GREAT TO SEE YOU HERE! We will learn together.

"If it is well with your belly, chest and feet," ahhh, Horace was clearly our age when he wrote that (but he forgot knees).

[PatH]

ahhh, Horace was clearly our age when he wrote that (but he forgot knees).

But Homer didn't forget knees.  A favorite line from Iliad:

Nestor, old sir!
If only your knees
Were as strong as your spirit!

[roshanarose]

I have just downloaded "The Odyssey".  Kind of nice having the impression that I am back at Uni.  I hope that warm and fuzzy feeling remains.

Gum lives on one side of the continent and I on the other, so our weather patterns often vary considerably.  Looking at the weather map I know that Gum in Perth is experiencing very hot and perhaps windy weather.  On my side of the continent in Brisbane, it has been raining for about 3 weeks non stop. Bad luck for the main school holidays which occur in December, our summer.  The rain is due to a cyclone in the Coral Sea which fortunately petered out as it crossed the coast.  We are now experiencing the tail of the cyclone down the Queensland coast, and it is very soggy indeed.  A "sticky wicket" as the cricket followers say.

[Gumtree]

Yes, Roshanarose is right about our weather here in Western Australia - it's HOT - Xmas Day was 40 Celsius which translates as about 104F - the same on Boxing Day and today is expected to be about the same. Very strong hot winds as well and our fire alert  remains high - despite the heat we had a great Christmas (thanks to air con) - all the family together for first time in a few years and all as happy as could be, everyone with new books to read and DH well enough to enjoy -  - couldn't be better.

Hi Bookad - good to see you here - I sometimes lurk on the Durant board - love it.

PatH - did you just dredge that Iliad quote on knees out of your head? If so, I dips me lid to you.

Suddenly it's almost time to think seriously about nominating titles - what to single out from the ancient riches? One of my sons disciplines himself to wake an hour early each morning to read one or other of the ancients before he faces today's world - He's done so for years and is currently reading Livy. Great way to start the day - but don't worry - I'm not going to nominate Livy - at least not for our first foray 

[rosemarykaye]

Gumtree - I believe that Joyce Grenfell set her alarm clock for an hour earlier than she needed to get up so that she could read.  I do not need to do that as I am a poor sleeper, but of recent years when i wake up far too early, instead of lying there fretting about it I now just put the light on and read - it's amazing how much more alert I am then than late at night - I get through far more books this way.

Brunetti, Donna Leon's Venetian detective, reads the classics, doesn't he?  He seems to find them very calming after a day with the Italian underworld (although Italian - or at least Venetian - days seem a bit different from ours; he spends a large part of his time popping into bars and cafes or going home for lunch).

Roshanarose - I think the Odyssey is a great idea, all the more so because I have a copy!

Rosemary