Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C. Gwynne ~ February Book Club Online

[Ella Gibbons]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

Empire of the Summer Moon  by S.C.Gwynne

February Book Club Online  

It's an AMERICAN STORY.  THE U.S. ARMY, TEXAS RANGERS - SETTLERS- ALL AGAINST THE INDIANS The year was 1871 and the final destruction of the last of the hostile tribes was just beginning after 250 years of bloody combat.  The end of the Civil War had brought many new people to the west searching for land, adventure, glory. By this time the Indians had seen the buffalo depart, they were cadging food, stealing horses and other useful artifacts or ornamental things from the white man.   Some learned to speak Spanish or English.  All loved clothing and blankets made of cotton or wool, and the  accumulation of white man's artifacts.  It was a sort of cultural pollution that could not be stopped. And then there were the white captives; particularly a white squaw who had lived with the Indians, married, had a son named Quanah who became the last great Comanche War Chief.  An epic saga!  A fascinating  book! Come join us as we discuss the integration of the Indians into a civilized world.

Map of Great Plains - shaded in red

Discussion Schedule Feb. 1 - 7      Chapters   1 - 7 Feb. 8 - 14    Chapters 8 - 13 Feb. 15 - 21  Chapters 14-18 Feb  22 - 28  Chapters 19 -22

Great Plains near Nebraska

         

   

Talking Points
Feb. 1-7 ~ Chapters 1 - 7

1.  Why do you think the Indians captured Cynthia Ann Parker?  Of what use would she be in the tribe?   

2.  Why would the white settlers believe the westward lands belonged to them?

3.  Why did both Spain and then Mexico encourage Anglos from the U.S. to move to Texas by giving them large tracks of free land with the promise of no taxes for 10 years

4..  How did the Comanche tribe become the single dominant Indian force in the western states?

5.  Twenty thousand Comanches, divided into five bands of approximately 4000 members each, lived in harmony with each other and had little system of government.  How was this possible?

6.  How were the Apaches, and, subsequently, the Spanish, conquered by the Comanches?

7.  The Republic of Texas elected Mirabeau B. Lamar as its second president in 1838,  How did his Indian policy differ from those of the first President Sam Houston.  Were settlers on the frontier more or less safe as the result of Lamar's policy changes?   

8.  What were a few of the weaknesses or mistakes made by the Indians in their battles with the whites?  Mistakes and successes made by the Rangers and the Army?   


Related Links: Interview with author, S.C. Gwynne ; Listen to C-SPAN Interview HERE ;
MAP of Texas; Historical Maps of Texas ; Tribal Map of Oklahoma ;
All about the Red River (Mississippi River) ;
The Die is Cast ;

 

Discussion Leaders:  Ella & Harold

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------








Good explanation, Harold, of why the explorers believed the land was there for the taking.  Thank you.

HEEDLESS UNWARRANED OPTIMISM!  Thank you, Callie, I think that must be true.  On page 13 our author talks about  settlers who came in 1836 - in OXCARTS (were they like covered wagons that we have seen in the movies?) - families came because Mexico (Texas was still in their hands) promised them each 4600 acres of land.  IMAGINE THAT!  What a windfall!  

Wouldn't you have come?

Well, not me, I'm not the hardy type to venture west in a wagon or a cart and I would have been terrified of tales of Indians.

Now I looked up our author's source in his notes for that gift of land and he has verified the Parker land by a deed which is in the Center for American history at the University of Texas.

But as our author says, how ironic!  Mexico needed them as a buffer against the Comanches.  They were terrified of the Comanches also.  

And so the settlers came, the Parker family among them, to a LETHAL PARADISE!

more later....

How is the weather in your part of the country?  Ohio is better today and I managed to get out of the driveway which has been covered in ice!    (post from Ella)

[Ella Gibbons]

I was hoping that CRESCENTWITCH (Kay), who is new to our site, would join in our discussion. 

ARE YOU OUT THERe?  PLEASE POST IF YOU ARE FOLLOWING ALONG WITH US.

[Frybabe]

Gosh, away from my computer for one day and look at all the posts.

My meager comment is that I remember, years back, reading that advertisements by various groups, including our government, neglected to mention the dangers, but emphasized the advantages and promised all kinds of things to get people to settle the West. I think I will go see if I can find any of those ads.

[CallieOK]

Wouldn't you have come?
One of my friends quotes his wife as saying, "I would never have left England".   

 (Off subject)  The Oklahoma Land Runs (1889-1892) promised Homesteads of 160 acres.  They weren't exactly free because it cost $50.00 to file the claim and "improvements" had to be made within a certain time limit.
One of my favorite stories about this experience is the fellow who read the law stating "a structure measuring 12 x 12 must be built..."   He noticed that it didn't give the exact definition of 12 x 12 - so he built something that was 12 inches x 12 inches - and got away with it. 

Outside temperature at my house has risen from 2ºF to 9!   Traffic seems to be moving o.k. on the main east-west street that I can see and family has all gotten to work o.k.  Side streets are a different matter. 

[Ella Gibbons]

FRYBABE, you have such ads?  Oh, wonderful!!  What years are we talking about here?  I'm 82 years old and I do remember in 1961 when we bought out second home two of our neighbors were selling out and moving "west, where everything, including jobs, is happening."  And, of course, in later years California has been the seat of our computer tech in this country.

CALLIE, what a funny story,  Thank you for that!  Hahahaaaaa

You mentioned MIRABEAU BUONAPARTE LAMAR (pg. 73), fascinating fellow.  Our author calls him "a dangerous, mean, and uncompromising son of a bitch."  Read about him here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirabeau_B._Lamar

And then there is this:

Lamar was the unanimous choice to replace Houston as president in 1838, and was inaugurated on December 1, 1838.[2] It was said that when Houston was giving his farewell speech, Houston was dressed like George Washington. When he went on the stage he noticed that Lamar was eager to give his speech.[citation needed] Houston lengthened his farewell address to 3 hours, "which so unnerved Lamar that he was unable to read his inaugural speech." Instead, it was given by his aide, Algernon P. Thompson.[2] In his first formal address to the Texas Congress several weeks later, Lamar urged that the Cherokee and Comanche tribes be driven from their lands in Texas, even if the tribes must be destroyed. He also proposed to create a national bank and to secure a loan from either the United States or Europe. Finally, he opposed annexation to the United States and wished to entice European countries to recognize the Republic of Texas.[5]




Imagine a politician today urging the destruction of a tribe of Indians!  The times, they do change!  History!

[Frybabe]

Well, I am not having a lot of luck finding actual ads so far, except for this one selling Nebraska land. http://www.elderweb.com/book/export/html/2816

We had a lot of folks trying to pass through to the west coast because of the gold rush. I expect some of them decided to settle along the way, and some would have written friends and relatives about the lands they went through just ripe for the picking in their view. And, in the late 1800s the railroads were selling a lot of land cheaply to get people to settle and use their railways.

Here is an interesting article regarding squatters in Kansas.
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2004/aug/29/us_government_threw/

I also ran across an article regarding Virginia and the remaining reservations in Virginia. I know that isn't our focus, but it is an interesting article non-the-less.
http://www.dhr.virginia.gov/arch_NET/timeline/modern_indian.htm

[serenesheila]

My surprise, and shock about the Indian torture and killing, was over the desription of cutting off the victims genatalia.  I knew that scalping was done a lot.  But, never before reading this book, had I heard about the dismemberment.  I am not sorry to be reading this book, new information is often surprising.

ELLA, your comment about blankets being thrown over the horses in a storm, gave me quite a laugh.  After my family moved into a home on some acreage for our horses, we had a bad rain and wind storm.  I was quite upset to see our horses standing in the open during the storm.  My husband laughed at me.  He said that horses usually just turn their rear section to the wind. 

My dictionary defines the word INDIGENOUS as:  "having originated in, and being produced, growing, living, or occurring, naturally in a particular region or environment.  (the indigenous culture)"  IMO this applies to the American Indian tribes.

It seems to me that many of the settlers moved West, to seek land.  Also, many had a deep sense of adventure.  My own maternal, great grandparents moved to Oklahoma, to acquire land, when it opened up for settlement.  Several of my family then moved to California, during the Dust Bowl.

[maryz]

I had to laugh at the comments about Mirabeau B. Lamar.  I graduated from Mirabeau B. Lamar High School in Houston, TX, many, many years ago.  The school mascot was "The Redskins" - and still is.  Definitely ironic!

[HaroldArnold]

A few quick comments about the Lamar Administrations.

He had distinguished himself as commander of the Calvary at San Jacinto.  In 1838 as President he  was definitely a nationalist.  I'm not sure but by 1845 he may have come around to support the annexation.  During his administration he opposed ratification of the several treaties that Houston had negotiated with the Cherokee and other immigrant Tribes from the U.S.  In this case all failed to gain approval by the Senate except one with the Alabama-Coshatta who today occupy one of the three Reservations in Texas.   All the rest were rejected and the tribes later were removed from Texas  by the U.S.  Lamar also sent a military Company of Volunteers west to raise the Flag at Santa Fe.  After a difficult trip they were easily defeated by the Mexican force.  Many were shot and the rest imprisoned for years.  It was a complete military failure.    

[HaroldArnold]

Regarding the change in Spanish Policy permitting Anglo settlers to settle Texas:

Throughout the 18th Century the RULE ONE   governing Spanish immigration policy was no foreigners allowed.  Settlement was to be by Spanish only or by Mexican Indians who by the 18th century were largely Hispanicize.  The fact is that there was not much interest in moving to Texas in the Spanish world.  In 1731 they induced some 18 Canary Island families to come to Texas with promises of irrigated land and other perks including ennoblement.  Yet even by 1820 the total Hispanic population north of the Rio Grande was not much above 2,000.  

The principal force prompting the Spanish to change this policy to let Anglos immigrate was in fact the coming of the Comanche.  A hundred years earlier the principal Buffalo hunting tribe in Texas was the Lipan Apache.  Then the Comanche were almost unheard of, but by the 18-teens the Comanche’s warlike presence and the unavailability of resident defenders was a problem that could not be ignored.  This was certainly a principal motivating force leading to negotiations with Moses and Stephen F. Austin that led to a contract authorizing the Austin’s to recruit 300 immigrant families from the U.S. to settle in Texas.  This contract was ratified by the New Republic of Mexico created in 1821by the successful Mexican revolution.  Each family was to receive large tracts of land on which they must settle tax free for 10 years.  They were supposed to be Roman Catholic but as a practical matter this provision seems to have been generally ignored.  Mexico also awarded similar contracts to several other Anglos to import additional settlers from the U.S.  The result was that by 1836 the total population north of the Rio Grande was over 10,000 with the Anglo population outnumbering the Hispanic by about 4 to1.  

The Parker's appear to have been one of the beneficiaries of one of these contracts.  They seem to have built a walled defensive compound that if properly manned and if properly managed would have prevented the Parker deaths and kidnappings that day in June 1836 when the Comanche raiding party appeared.  As our book described the scene that day, the Parkers when the Comanche war party appeared failed to shut their stockade gate and man their walls.  Instead the Comanche entered through open gates killing and assaulting individual men.  Had the gates been closed and the walls defended it is unlikely that the Comanche would have lingered long to siege the defended position.  Instead true to their Comanche custom they would have killed or stolen any stray horses or cattle outside the defended compound and hurried away to find other less defended opportunities.   As it was with the gates open and the walls undefended the defenders were quickly over whelmed and subject to death rape, kidnapping and torture.

[Aberlaine]

The Comanche owned the Plains because they defeated the other tribes there.  They were small and not good looking - at least not like those Indians portrayed in our Hollywood versions of the wild west.  They didn't settle anywhere, so couldn't be attacked, didn't have religion or any skills other than warfare.  They became dominant over other tribes simply through luck - they were able to use the horse to a better advantage.

This is true for any other culture which has subdued another.  If they were stronger, wiser or had a technological advantage, they won.  The repeaters changed the course of American history.  Once the white settlers/army stopped dismounting to fight and once they had a gun that they didn't have to reload so often, the advantage was theirs.

[JeanClark]

Do you think that the Carters left their property unguarded because they were arrogant enough to think that their reputation of power would protect them? So many people have been done in by. their arrogance and idea that they are untouchable. I know that my ancestors came from Ireland because there was nothing for them there but the feudal system and starvation. That would tend to make one brutal and take whatever is up for grabs especially with the manifest destiny philosophy using whatever weapons necessary to get the job done.Is burning at the stake more humane than roasting over a fire? The Europeans also hanged children over the age of seven for  minor crimes so who are we to pass judgement on another culture? We should clean up our own act first.

[kiwilady]

Out ancestors also transported little children for stealing food because they were starving. They were shipped out to penal colonies.

Carolyn

[JeanClark]

The indians had a low fertility rate so any female that could survive their hardships was a prime candidate for motherhood.I dont knowif they had the concept of bringing new genes into the tribe to strenthen the populace but even some of the more iltelligent species dont intermarry. The orcas in the pacific wont mate with members of their own pod. Maybe there was some race memory for the actions that they tood. It makes sense that if a kidnappep child could survive the culture she must have some strong attributes to pass on. Children adapt more easily to a new culture than adults do and contaminate it less as in the case of the Parker child. She was able leave behind all of her civilized teachings and become a functioning member of the tribe and seemed happy tolive that life. Certainly a survivor.

[bookad]

could not the Comanches have learned their brutal retaliation from being initially the inferior race, picked on my other tribes (other tribes being the bullies so to speak, took full advantage of being top dog) so when the Comanches rose to that position, their anger knew no bounds....I knew there was honour in a man being killed being strong, and therefore it would be strengthening to people to eat his heart to gain his strength....but I didn't realize certain tribes were cannibals eating their victims

Deb

[Jonathan]

How interesting that we should have a graduate of Mirabeau B. Lamar High School participating in this discussion. How is he regarded now, Mary? Just look how he has been honored in Texas:

'Lamar County, in northeast Texas, and Lamar, a small unincorporated community in Aransas County on the Texas Gulf Coast, are both named for Mirabeau Lamar. Lamar Boulevard, a major thoroughfare in Austin, also carries his name, as do many streets around Texas.

Also named for him are Lamar University in Beaumont, Lamar State College - Port Arthur in Port Arthur, Lamar State College in Orange, and Lamar Institute of Technology in Beaumont, as well as Lamar High School in Houston, Lamar High School in Arlington, Lamar Consolidated High School in Rosenberg; also Lamar Middle School in Austin, Lamar Middle School in Dallas, Lamar Middle School in Irving; elementary schools in Amarillo, Corpus Christi, El Paso and San Antonio, and The Woodlands; as well as numerous other K-12 schools throughout Texas.' (from the link supplied by Ella, 164)

Not bad for a man who is described as, 'even by frontier standards, a dangerous, mean, and uncompromising son of a bitch. A truculent Indian-annihilator and would-be empire builder.

He seems to have been the man of the hour, with his get tough policy. After the raid at Parker's Fort, white men had been pouring into Texas by the thousands...the frontier had exploded in violence. Comanche attacks escalated...more than one hundred captives were carried off. Most, like little nine-year-old Cynthia Ann Porter, were, simply, heartbreakingly gone. And Lamar's rallying cry: extinction or expulsion.pages74-5

How heartbreaking a few pages later to read about the father calling for his daughter, after attacking and overruniing a Comanche camp, Matilda, if you are here, run to me. p81

How did Lamar ever come by his given names? Born on a Georgia plantation, in 1798, with a father and/or mother following French politics. Both Mirabeau and Buonaparte were both very prominent in French revolutionary times.

What an engrossing tale. Didn't Lamar begin by clearing eastern Texas of Indian tribes? Was that to make way for Southern plantation owners to expand into Texas?

[maryz]

Obviously, Lamar was considered one of the Texas heroes.  We moved from Texas in 1962, and that was a different time.  So I have no idea how he's regarded now.

[Babi]

 There was a lot of shifting around as tribes moved in search of
better hunting grounds, or because a bigger tribe was pushing them
out. A tribe could 'claim' whatever they could hold, and the
Comanches were the biggest, meanest claimants around.
  As to Rachel, JOAN, that was exactly my point. She had no way to
write all that down, so she was writing from memory. I'm sure those
memories were fresh and very strong, but the apparent detail of her
observations is impressive. I'm amazed she had the strength and
energy to even look around, considering what she was going through.

 MARYZ.. Three cheers for Lamar High Schools Redskins!!   

This observation really caught my attention; I’d never considered that aspect of the situation before. “Neither the Americans nor the  Indians they confronted along that raw frontier had the remotest idea of the other’s geographical size or the military power.”   At the time of the attack on Parker’s Fort in 1836, the Comanches controlled a “military and trade empire that covered some 240,000 square miles…”.    A pity we didn’t realize that.  Do you think the government would have taken a more respectful approach if they had realized what they were facing.?

[Ella Gibbons]

CAROLYN - tell us why you think this book is "terribly one-sided." 

Of course you laughed, MARY!  So the man, Lamar,  is still well thought in your parts of Texas obviously!  But you are still calling your teams "Redskins" - I thought there was an uproar about such names a few years ago - well, uproars die don't they?

Texas, around these parts (Ohio) is still rather awesome!  It's huge and takes forever to drive through and is the land where long movies, most about cowboys, are made.  People like guns there.  Songs are sung about the state.

GIVE ME LAND, LOTS OF LAND, DON'T FENCE ME IN!
YELLOW ROSE OF TEXAS

Many more I'm sure.  And Texas is always threatening to leave the Union when things don't go their way!  Spoiled, they are!  hahahaaaaa

But back to the book.  And the Indians.

One of you mentioned the Indians needed women and that's why they captured Cynthia Ann and Rachel.  I read about it somewhere but have no time this morning to look it up.  The battles were taking their toll of the young men who could beget other young men if they were around.  And they did need male babies.  How pleased Cynthia and her husband, Peta Nocona must have been to have a boy; being a mother (as perhaps most of us are) does it really surprise us that Cynthia wanted to go back to the Indian village where her children were?  Not me.

I am late for an appt. this morning and have no time for more comments.

WHAT DO ALL OF YOU HAVE TO SAY THIS BRIGHT MORNING.  It's nice in Ohio, cold, of course, but no snow, no rain, no ice.

[Ella Gibbons]

I see I have missed reading a few posts above.  No time this morning.  I'll read more when I get back.

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR POSTING.  IT'S WONDERFUL TO COME IN THE MORNING AND READ ABOUT THE BOOK AND TO KNOW YOU ARE ALL HERE AND INTERESTED IN HISTORY AND IN POSTING!

[maryz]

Ella, yes, I was surprised, too, that they were still The Redskins.

[Jonathan]

DON'T FENCE ME IN

I can hear the Comanches singing that. Hating the white settlers for bringing those fences in with them. The Comanches made many enemies in extending their 'rule' over 240,000 square miles of empire.

To their enemies, the Comanches were implacable killers, grim apostles of darkness and devastation. Inside their own camps... page47 a noisy, jolly, rollicking, mischief-loving braggadocio, brimful of practical jokes and rough fun of any kind...rousing the midnight echoes with song and dance, whoops and yells....He loved to sing. He often woke up singing and sang before he went to bed....He would dance for hours....He doted on his family...and he loved to talk...vaunting his exploits in love, war, on the chase, and will commit all  sorts of extravagances while telling.

I wonder if he was the knight on the fiery steed for some of his victims. This is no book for bleeding hearts. Terrible things happened on the frontier. What an epic.

[Ella Gibbons]

Oh, you are right,  JONATHAN.  Terrible things happened on the frontier, but as JEAN stated in her post the Europeans were hanging children at the age of 7  for minor crimes, and CAROLYN commented about transporting young children to penal colonies for stealing when starving.

It puts cruelty in perspective!  Yes, the Indians were very brutal but as you read further you will see that the white man could match them, they learned how to fight, how to protect their own, and they locked their gates!

(I did smile, Jonathan, at the image of the Comanches dancing to the tune of Don't Fence Me In, hahaaaa, one has to keep a sense of humor in this life or any life)

But I keep forgetting about Texas being a Republic, the state is unique, really.   The facts are:

Texas declared  independence from Mexico on March 2, 1836, to become the Republic of Texas.
Texas was admitted to the Union on December 29, 1845, as the 28th state.

For eight years it was a sovereign nation.  A year earlier it had a population of only 40,000 (pg.14)  That's not very many people, barely over the size of a village in Ohio.   And yet, they had a government.  It seems these people knew how to form one, - Samuel Houston was twice elected president of the Republic of Texas (the first time on September 5, 1836). He served from October 22, 1836, to December 10, 1838, and again from December 12, 1841, to December 9, 1844.

I think that is remarkable.  And we ought to pay a bit more attention to Sam Houston, a remarkable man (Texas has had many of them!)  What do you think of this one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Houston#Republic_of_Texas





 
  

[HaroldArnold]

Did you notice how the Santa Fe New Mexico Spanish first became aware of the Comanche?  Their previous principal Indian enemy, the Apache was acting strange by moving west away from their earlier Eastern New Mexico hunting ground.   In fact they were running away to the West.  The New Mexico settlement too was soon terrorized by the new enemy, the Comanche.  

In the mid 18th century the New Mexico administration came up with a novel solution to their problem.  They successfully negotiated a treaty with the Comanche that really amounted to the paying of annual tribute.  It was in the form of a trade treaty that included annual rather lavish gifts to the Comanche as well as trade of Santa Fe corn and Irion hatchets arrow points, knives and other military hardware in exchange for buffalo robes.  Our Author considered this treaty the only successful treaty made by the Europeans with the Comanche.  It kept the New Mexico settlements largely free from Comanche terror.

[HaroldArnold]

Our book also told how in Texas the Lipan Apache tricked the Spanish into providing them Spanish military protection by indicating their sudden desire for a mission and missionaries in their own country.  The Spanish took the bait and in 1754 sent three priests to build a mission on the San Saba River some 200 miles west of San Antonio.  The Mission complex included in addition to the mission a Presidio manned by 200 Spanish soldiers.  

When the Comanche heard of the mission supposing supporting their Apache enemy, they organized an unusually large war party numbering some 2,000 warriors.  Its composition was mostly Comanche from all Comanche tribes plus Kiowa, Wichita, and others, even Caddo from East Texas.  When the War Party arrived the soldiers with their dependents were secure in their stone fort.  The Comanche hit the mission just 2 ½ miles from the Presidio killing two of the three priests plus several soldiers and workers also at the mission.  The Presidio commander did not try to aid the mission because he felt it would endanger the several hundred woman and children dependents at the fort.  The Comanche true to their traditional reluctance to siege or attack well defended positions left for other devilment elsewhere.  The San Saba Mission was never operational after that and after a few years the Spanish moved the Presidio soldiers to San Antonio ending their hope of Christianizing the Apache. 

In 1990 I happened to be in Houston Texas visiting a large Museum of Art.  There I encountered a single large oil painting.  It was obvious Spanish Colonial showing two Franciscan Priests one on each side with a background showing Indians ravishing a mission structure.  In the manner in which dialog is indicated in a modern comic strip, I read  in Spanish an  in memoriam tribute to the two Priests Killed at that 1755 Comanche attack at San Saba .  It seems this painting had been commissioned about 1760 by the family of one of the priests.  It had been illegally imported into the U.S. and the Mexican Government had filed Suit in Federal Court to force its return.  While the litigation was in progress It was being preserved at the museum I was visiting.

[JoanP]

Harold, I noticed that - the Comanches signed a bunch of treaties, which they never honored - but they did keep the trade treaty.  If only a lesson how been learned from that - maybe things would have been different - what do you think?  Or do you think the only solution was to rid the land of the Comanches, treaty or no.  Ella, I liked Sam Houston too...a peaceful man.  BUT I can understand the frustration of the Parkers when he refused to help the rescue operation to get Rachel and the children back.  Lamar was different - he was eager to comply - his goal - to "exterminate" the Comanche - no treaties, no ransom of prisoners, just exterminate them.  Period.  Don't know how this would help get Rachel back though.  
Did you notice that Houston was re-elected again just two years after Lamar had replaced him?  

Maryz...too too funny  - ironic, that the man who wanted to exterminate the "redskins" has a high school named after him - with a football team called "redskins."  Did you study the history when you were in school?  Were there any real Indians in your school?  Did anyone realize who strange this was?  I just had to look up your alma mater to see if the team is still called "Redskins"....

Lamar High School

"Lamar High School's sports' mascot is the "Lamar Redskins." There were plans to phase out the "Redskins" into the "Rangers" as "Redskins" is considered derogatory to the Native American population. So far, the girls' dancing squad, the "Arrowettes", has been permanently given a new name (the "Rangerettes").

Were you  an "Arrowette"?  I'll bet you were!

I got thinking about the term - "Indians" after reading this -
"In 1520 Indians numbered 11 million after Cortes arrived - numbers plummeted to ONE million in 1650.  The indios played the role of serfs.  Is this where the term, "INDIANS" comes from?  Does anyone know?

[Frybabe]

What I was always told, JoanP, was that Columbus, originally thinking he as actually made it to the spice islands and the Indian subcontinent, called the native population Indians, and it stuck. Is indios the Spanish for Indian?

[bookad]

regarding Sam Houston; I remember reading somewhere how he joined a group of Indians (not sure which group & apparently of his own free will) and liked their lifestyle enough that he periodically went back to live with them, considering many his friends....has anyone read more about this, it is something I would be interested in learning more about....!!!!!

[Babi]

I keep wondering where those population figures came from, JOANP.
No one was taking a census then. As to the term "Indians", I always
supposed it was because it was originally thought Columbus had
discovered his way to the Indies. That was what he was looking for.

  I am having trouble keeping up; there is so much information!  Now I
have another favorite misconception shot down….the notion that the Indians only killed buffalo to meet their needs for food and hides for tents and clothing.   It seems the Comanche also killed buffalo just for the hides, for trading.  Where they might kill 6 for personal use, they would kill an average of 44 per year for the value of their hides. That,
by the way, was the reason they wanted older women captives. They
needed extra hands to work those buffalo hides.
  No conventional system of law, no police.  I note that adultery was considered a crime, tho’ it doesn’t say whether that  applies to husband as well as wife.  If someone was wronged it was up to the individual to bring a complaint before the council.
   The Comanches carried individual freedom to a level rare in that day.  There was no hereditary leadership and even the clan ‘chiefs’  could not force members of the band to do anything.  Any warrior who felt like it could call for a raid and those who felt like joining him could do so. A
Comanche warrior did exactly what he felt like doing, whenever he felt
like doing it.  Extraordinary!
 At least I had the pleasure of meeting Don Juan Bautista de Anza.
Brilliant, an experienced Indian fighter, yet also able to establish a lasting
treaty with the Comanche.  We could use a few like him today.

[Frybabe]

As to the term "Indians", I always
supposed it was because it was originally thought Columbus had
discovered his way to the Indies. That was what he was looking for.

You are right, Babi. I got slightly off course there. Of course, the EAST Indies. Well, maybe not so off course. I just looked it up East Indies was a term used to pretty much cover the whole of South and South East Asia, covering India, Pakistan, etc. and all the islands from Ceylon out to the Phillipines, Singapore and the western half of New Guinea.

[HaroldArnold]

Pardon me, but I have had to laugh at some of the posts revarding our Texas image by people from other states and other countries.  How can anyone say Texas is always threatening to leave the Union.  The last time that happened was April, 1861 and there was a lot of opposition even them.  Regarding The names of Lamar, and Houston and other Texas Heroes, I doubt that one in three men on the street if asked had ever heard of them.  True most Texas school children including old alumni would know some of them.  Through the 1930's we tended to name schools after them.  I am sure there are a lot more than one Lamar High Schools scattered over the state.  More recently some new school do carry their name, but most are now named after later War heroes, Literary personalities Astronauts, etc.

Constitutionally we are one of 50 states.  I suppose there is one rather unique Constitutional difference.  That would be the provisions in several 1840's Congressional Bill giving Texas the right to split itself into 5 separate States. Ugh that would get  National attention quick for how it might upset the balance of power in the Senate.   But that to is unlikely to happen.

[Ella Gibbons]

Oh, HAROLD, you got a laugh, good!  Texas has always been a subject to tell tall tales about, true or false!  Glad you thought to set the record straight.  And isn't it wonderful that each of us defend our states, our cities.  I mean my city, Columbus,  is called "that cowtown" and we haven't had cows around for several generations.

But back to our story.  BABI, yes, a lot of information!  The Comanches needed more women - captives -  not only to work, but to produce children as miscarriages were common due to horseback riding and at times they could collect ransom from those they captured.  

We've talked about Rachel Plummer's narrative that our author quotes and the only reference I can find online to James Parker's Narrrative, referenced in the Bibliography, is the following:  (I found it rather amazing that there is this much, the Internet is a constant wonder to me)

" In 1844 James published Narrative of the Perilous Adventures, Miraculous Escapes and Sufferings of Rev. James W. Parker (Morning Courier Office, Louisville, Kentucky, 1844), later republished (missing several pages) in 1926 by family members in Anderson County and entitled Rachel Plummer's Narrative. Both publications include an appended second edition of the Narrative plus a geographical description of Texas for settlers and include a description of James's efforts to return his family from captivity."

And this:   http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/fpa23

  

[Ella Gibbons]

I opened my Columbus Dispatch paper this morning and look what I saw - bison coming to our metro parks:

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/02/04/Bison_arrive_at_Metro_Parks.html?sid=101

I hope you can see that.  Shaggy, big beasts!  Our book tells us that they were dangerous animals to hunt; a challenge to the Indians, they could run as fast an an ordinary horse for two miles.  

I was just as surprised in watching the news about Egypt to see some camels being used to disperse the crowds in the square where the protestors are.  Did you see the camels?  Amazing beasts also!

_______________________________________________________________________________________

BABI, I understand there is a lot of information in the book, at times overwhelming, how could we better digest it

Maybe take just two chapters at a time?

So many raids, battles, heros, so dramatic!  Our author writes well, it sometimes seems as though I'm watching a motion picture in my mind as I read along.

[JeanClark]

What I have seen about treaties is that they are just so much words and paper,made in the expediency of the situation and no onereally expects them to be kept. We have broken almost all the treaties that we havemade with the indians with flimsy excuses just as they have broken their treaties with us. People without honor but lots of greed. There is not much about Cynthia Parker and her feelings. Was she ever  able to be interviewed to get her version of her life. She may not have been married according to the Christian community but was certainly considered married in the Indian tribe. I would have like more information about her but there is so little out there or has it just been bypassed because of the unhappy way she was treated after being recovered.Why didnt they just leave her with her Indian family since it was obvious that she wasnt able to be reintroduced back into the white culture. Of course the Indians were considered a sub human group and as such could be killed with impunity. The book is interesting but I dont see a lot of depth in it.

[ALF43]

I changed the font size on my Nook reader now so I have forgotten where the heck this is in our book but wasn't there "gold in them thar hills?"
Wouldn't that have been enough reason to "go west, young man?"

It amazes me how tribal we continue to be in today's world:  Many associate with only their our "own" ethnic groups/ race; class divisions still remain- wealthy/poor; i.e. indians vs. the white man; American vs. Chinese etc. The problem with that is different kindred beings in society believe in "an eye for an eye."  It is much like our story,  you fence in our land and kill our animals and we will hunt you down, ravage your farms and steal your young.  In today's society it is the drug population that is doing just that- from one gang to another.
Lord, we haven't learned much have we?
 

[Jonathan]

There's a lot of interesting information about Sam Houston in the link provided by Ella in post #182. Houston spent several years with a Cherokee band, was adopted and married a Cherokee. That would explain his endeavours on behalf of all Indians. Treaty-making must have been a serious attempt to reach some kind of agreement with the indigenous people. Enforcement would have been a problem. Aren't some of these treaties now showing up in the courts, as Native Americans seek some kind of justice?

The buffalo is making a comeback. Can the Comanches be far behind? Keep the doors locked, Ella.

[HaroldArnold]

Yesterday there were a couple of comments regarding Anglo Fencing as a factor in changing the character of Comanche lifestyle.  I don't think so.  In fact I doubt a Comanche ever saw a barbed wire fence until the 1880's by which time they were already on the reservation.  The fencing of the Western range had to await the invention and production of cheap barbed wire.  This was made possible by a series of U.S. patents issued during the Mid 1870.  It was several years after that before Texas ranchers began serious fencing of their pasture.s. I suspect that by 1900 privatization of land and increasing use of barbed wire fences had effectively cut off public access with large herds of Cattle   http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/barbwire.htm

The 1870's and 1880's were the years of the Texas trail drives.  These involved driving thousand head herds from South Texas up the Chisholm Trail  ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chisholm_Trail ).  I Know during these years there were large thousand head herds of longhorn cattle being driven from South Texas up to the rail head in Nebraska.  The Trail was the 19th century version of I-35 extended from South Texas to the rail head cities in Nebraska.  A trail crew was generally composed of 12 to15 armed cowboy types.  There are stories of conflict with Comanche war parties that were usually resolved with gifts of several cattle to the Comanche.  Considering the warlike character of the Comanche I am surprised The Comanche were satisfied with several head when after a fight they might have the whole heard.   I wonder why Gwynee did not mention this in the book.  

[CallieOK]

A map of the Chisholm Trail:

http://www.thechisholmtrail.com/map2.htm

The center part of the Oklahoma section is about 20 miles west of where I live.  There are lots of historical markers - and an Annual Trail Ride through some parts of it.

[Frybabe]

Super map, Callie. I didn't realize the Trail had all those branches.

[serenesheila]

Now, I am surprised to know that there is a school, in Texas, which calls its sports teams "Redskins".  I believe it was the 1970s when there was an uprising, at least in California about teams using that term.  Stanford University in Northern California was called home of the "Redskins", up until that time.  Now it is called "The Cardinal".

At the same time, American Indians took over Alcatraz, in the San Francisco Bay.  It was occupied for a lengrthy period of time, and got a lot of publicity.  In addition, study programs began at many state colleges, and Universities.

Sheila