Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C. Gwynne ~ February Book Club Online

[CallieOK]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

Empire of the Summer Moon  by S.C.Gwynne

February Book Club Online  

It's an AMERICAN STORY.  THE U.S. ARMY, TEXAS RANGERS - SETTLERS- ALL AGAINST THE INDIANS The year was 1871 and the final destruction of the last of the hostile tribes was just beginning after 250 years of bloody combat.  The end of the Civil War had brought many new people to the west searching for land, adventure, glory. By this time the Indians had seen the buffalo depart, they were cadging food, stealing horses and other useful artifacts or ornamental things from the white man.   Some learned to speak Spanish or English.  All loved clothing and blankets made of cotton or wool, and the  accumulation of white man's artifacts.  It was a sort of cultural pollution that could not be stopped. And then there were the white captives; particularly a white squaw who had lived with the Indians, married, had a son named Quanah who became the last great Comanche War Chief.  An epic saga!  A fascinating  book! Come join us as we discuss the integration of the Indians into a civilized world.

Map of Great Plains - shaded in red

Discussion Schedule Feb. 8 - 14    Chapters 8 - 13 Feb. 15 - 21  Chapters 14-18 Feb  22 - 28  Chapters 19 -22

Great Plains near Nebraska

       

   

Talking Points
Feb. 8-14 ~ Chapters 8-13

1. Discuss Cynthia Ann’s life among the Comanche.  Does it appear that she was worse-treated than other Comanche women?   Contrast Cynthia Ann’s treatment with the treatment with other Anglo Women held by the Comanche: Matilda Lockhart, Banca Banc Babbs, & Malinda Ann Caudell.  

2. What did our book tell of the early life of Quanah and his younger brother, Peanuts?  

3. Discuss some of the early instances in which Anglo or Mexican men visited Cynthia’s Ann’s Comanche Village.  What attempt if any did they make that might have obtained her release?

4. Who were Charles Goodnight, John Coffee Hays, and Rip Ford?  What role did they play in the long war with the Comanche and the effort to find Cynthia Ann and obtain her release?

5. Who was James W. Parker?  What are some of his efforts to rescue his niece Cynthia Ann Parker.  What major 1950’s movie did his efforts inspire?

6. Describe the circumstances of Cynthia Ann’s “rescue.”  What was her mental state and what effort was made to help her reprogram for living in 19th century Texas?  What was the attitude of her Parker family, having Cynthia Ann back among them.

7. What effect did the Civil War have on the Texas Frontier particularly the continuing Texas war with the Comanche?  


Related Links: Interview with author, S.C. Gwynne ; Listen to C-SPAN Interview HERE ;
MAP of Texas; Historical Maps of Texas ; Tribal Map of Oklahoma ;
All about the Red River (Mississippi River) ;
The Die is Cast ;

 

Discussion Leaders:  Ella & Harold

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Frybabe, I didn't either - until I became a Volunteer at The Oklahoma History Center Museum and began going to some classes.  
I knew about the main one through central Oklahoma but was very surprised to learn about the branch that went up and through the eastern part.

Untile I began reading "Empire...", I didn't know there were ever Cherokees in East Texas.

[Frybabe]

I finally started Googling images of some of the land features talked about in the book. I am finding very interesting reading regarding the Balcones Escarpment which marks the end of the Coastal Plain. I thought the pictures would be more dramatic then they are (at least the ones I found so far), but the geology is fastinating to me. The Escarpment is a fault zone and is easy to spot on satellite pictures. It is a limestone/karst formation which is very permeable. The Edwards Aquifer runs for about 150 miles along the formation and is between 5 and 40 miles wide. As far a I can tell, they have not been using any artificial recharge to replenish the water in the aquifer (so far), but they must carefully monitor the stream flow, etc. that feeds the aquifer and adjust Austin's water usage accordingly.

Callie, I was also surprised to see that the author said the WHOLE of Oklahoma was at one time specifically designated by the US Gov. as Indian Territory at one time.

[CallieOK]

Except for an area in the middle, which remained with the government when the rest of it was "assigned" to various Indian tribes, it was.  

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Okterritory.png

The Unassigned Lands were opened for white settlement in the Land Run of 1889.

[Frybabe]

Interesting how they put the unassigned land right smack in the middle so that the whites would have to travel through Indian territories to get there. I wonder what was the rationale for dividing it up the way they did. They put the Apache in with the Kiowa and Comanchi? I thought they were natural enemies.

[HaroldArnold]

Regarding the Edwards aquifer San Antonio a city of over 1.5 million gets most of its public water supply from well drilled into this formation.  Austin is above this formation and historically has obtained its city water from the Colorado River.  This river is one of the largest in Texas.  I don’t think Austin gets much if any water from the Edwards. 

The Edwards recharge zone is just North and West of San Antonio.  In North San Antonio it runs from just a few hundred feet deep in the northern part of San Antonio to over 1,000 feet in the South.  There is a fault line across the southern part of the county running from the southwest  in a north east direction. South of this fault line the Edward suddenly drops something like another 1,000 feet.  North of this fault line the water is clean, cool, and sweet; south of this line the water is hot (120 degrees) and tastes terrible from  its high mineral and even hydro carbon content.  It runs continually deeper as it continues south east toward the coast.  In this area it sometime produce oil and gas in commercial quantities.  The existence of this aquifer has made possible the growth of a little 18th Century Spanish town into a large 21st century American city.   

[bookad]

Harold-Callie-regarding the Chisholm Trail-right at the border in Brownsville, looking across the Rio to Mexico is a lovely little parkette noting the 'beginning of the Chisholm trail', a very pretty little place

I saw a book at the Stillman museum in downtown Brownsville, all about women who drove the trail, and I tried to look for it in the library, but unfortunately the history of texas/mexico section of the library are all books that can't be taken out of the library, ...really unfortunate as there are a number of books I would love to read, but don't really want to spend a few days totally at the library to do so

Deb

[Babi]

  Don't worry about it, ELLA.  The next section is a chapter shorter, so
perhaps that will help.  The schedule divisions are perfectly logical to fit
into February.
  An eyebrow went up when I saw that the origin of the word Comanche may have been what the Ute called them, “Koh-mat”, meaning “anyone who is against me all the time”.  It does make the
Comanches sound like an extremely contrary people.

    I was unaware that the  Texas Rangers were originally Indian fighters, and only later became law men.  They were successful as Indian fighters precisely because they learned how to fight from the
Comanches themselves.  I well remember when my young grandson
visited the Rangers headquarters and was presented with a 'Texas Ranger' hat. He was so proud and pleased.

[Ella Gibbons]

The Parker family, Cynthia and others, plus Quanah, will be discussed in more detail in our next assignment starting Tuesday, the 8th. Incidentally, there is still a team called the WASHINGTON REDSKINS, a professional team, correct?   As SHEILA stated there was an uprising by the Indians about such names and I do remember Alcatraz being taken.  OH, MY, MY, how long ago it seems.

 All you football fans are going to be in front of the TV today to watch two teams that were named after local industries, a good thing, right?  A steeltown and a meatpacking town.  How American is that?  I may, I don't know yet!

I am still pondering over the Republic of Texas; those eight years when it had a government.  How did they vote?  40,000 people scattered over the ranges of Texas somehow elected Sam Houston as president; what other positions were in that government and did they have a constitution.  I must go look it all up.

[Ella Gibbons]

Taking time out from all the battles, I am intrigued by this young republic.  I never knew this about Texas.  Here is more information and you will see a replica of their first capital, Washington-on-the-Brazos.  Many of their decisions were based on  United States history, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_of_1836

Forty-one delegates arrived in Washington-on-the-Brazos on February 28. The convention was convened on March 1 with Richard Ellis as president.

Many of the delegates to the 1836 convention were young men who had only recently arrived in Texas, although many of them had participated in one of the battles in 1835. Most of the delegates were members of the War Party and were adamant that Texas must declare its independence from Mexico

I love to learn history.

[Ella Gibbons]

Many Texans favored immediate annexation by the United States. However, the proposals went nowhere, because of the risk of continued war with Mexico and Texas' shaky financial status. Even after San Jacinto, Mexico refused to recognize Texas's independence and continued to raid the Texas border. The new government had neither money nor credit, and no governmental structures were in place. Rebuffed by the United States, Texans went about the business of slowly forming a stable government and nation. Despite many difficulties and continued fighting both with Mexico and with Indian tribes, the Texas frontier continued to attract thousands of settlers each year.

http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/treasures/republic/index.html

[Ella Gibbons]

BUFFALO HUMP (Chapter 7) could hate.  He's even mentioned in the history of Texas:

"The Comanches were the main Native American opposition to the Texas Republic. In the late 1830s, Sam Houston negotiated a peace between Texas and the Comanches. Lamar replaced Houston as president in 1838, and reversed the Indian policies. He launched a genocidal war against the Comanches and invaded Comancheria itself. In retaliation, the Comanches attacked Texas in a series of raids. After peace talks in 1840 ended with the massacre of 34 Comanche leaders in San Antonio, the Comanches launched a major attack deep into Texas, known as the Great Raid of 1840. Under command of Potsanaquahip (Buffalo Hump), 500-700 Comanche cavalry warriors swept down the Guadalupe River valley, killing and plundering all the way to the shore of the Gulf of Mexico, where they sacked the towns of Victoria and Linnville. Houston became president again in 1841 and, with both Texans and Comanches exhausted by war, a new peace was established."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Texas#Statehood

[Frybabe]

Thanks for the correction Harold. I mis-typed without double checking my reading. My brain was starting to go into sleep mode. I had an interest in groundwater issues years ago, and have recently become reacquainted with artificial aquifer recharge. In Pennsylvania, most of our aquifer system is recharged naturally like the Edwards. Edwards interests me because of its structure. I hadn't read far enough in to see the information on the dissolved mineral content from one area to the next, but it doesn't surprise me. The Equus Aquifer system is also interesting. The city of Wichita, Kansas and the EPA have a very interesting site about their artificial aquifer recharge and storage project.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programing.

[Jonathan]

Is it really so, Harold? My newspaper reports that the new Cowboys Stadium has 'a vast, retractable roof that opens so - as they say in Texas - God can watch  the Super Bowl. How disappointing for God. Because of the weather the roof will be closed. That's understandable, after hearing about the terrible winter weather you've been getting in this early part of February.

What a coincidence. Here I am reading about Colonel John Moore going after the Comanches in the ongoing conflict between Native and American. Why is an American military action always referred to as an expedition, and a Comanche action referred to as a raid?

However. This action took place in February, 1839. Just listen to this:

When they (Colonel Moore and his men) reached the encampment, the Comanches had already departed, leaving a trail that headed upriver. Before they could follow, a prairie storm came howling in from the north. The men hunkered down in a grove of post oak in the fierce, penetrating cold, and waited out the driving snow and sleet. For three days.page 79

Those amazing Comanches. With their dazzling horsemanship. We're given a fine picture of that In the third chapter. So much in that chapter that catches ones imagination.

And there was the simple, fundamental, spirtual power of the animal itself, which had transformed these poor foot Indians into dazzling cavalrymen. And the new technology turned tribes who had lagged behind their peers in culture and social organization into newly dominant forces.page 31

They were so skilfull with horses. I wonder, did they ever try to engage the buffalo as a mount. It probably would have meant changing their battle tactics somewhat, but it seems to me that a buffalo could have made a great warhorse.

See y'all at the game. I watched TRUE GRIT last night. With John Wayne. How picturesque. Where was it filmed?

[maryz]

I'm out of town - in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas north of Brownsville - on a borrowed computer.  There was no such thing as a dance team when I was in HS in the early 1950s - and probably not when our girls were in HS in Tennessee in the 1970s.    I didn't know there was a possible change in the name to the Rangers.  I'll be back home on Tuesday.

[CallieOK]

Jonathan, the original True Grit was filmed in southern Colorado in the Fall, when the aspen trees are at their peak color.  However, the story takes place in eastern Oklahoma which is heavily timbered with hardwoods that have spectacular red, yellow and orange colors in the Fall.
Eastern Oklahoma also has "mountains" - but they are nothing like the peaks in the Rockies.

As an Oklahoman who grew up in the area where the True Grit story takes place, I was NOT happy with the setting of that movie!!!!  

(Also - one of the towns to which they go is NOT pronounced "Pot - oh" (as in a saucepan); it's Poe - toe (French)!)


I cannot imagine a buffalo "agreeing" to be a warhorse!!  

[Babi]

Why is an American military action always referred to as an
expedition, and a Comanche action referred to as a raid?

  Good question, JONATHAN.

  Good link on Texas history, ELLA.  If you look at the box to the right,
you can see where the phrase "Six flags over Texas" came from.

[HaroldArnold]

Jonathan, regarding your message #212.  I think you are referring to the February 1839 action under Col John Moore north of Austin on the Colorado River.  This was a typical action in which the Militia attacked the Comanche village on foot after dismounting, leaving their horses virtually unguarded.  The Comanche promptly stampeded the horse herd while the Militia attacked an empty village.  After the Comanche staged a vicious counterattack on the exposed Texans in the village, Moore's force had a long walk home carrying their wounded about 100 miles home.

This was the typical strategy pattern of the time The next year the Comanche penetrated all the way to the coast.  That time largely because of the large amount of their loot and stolen horses the Texans were able to mount a somewhat successful counter attack that deprived the Comanche at least of a portion of their loot.

Also Jonathan regarding the Cowboy’s stadiums, I remember back in the late 1980’s on a Sunday afternoon flying into Dallas on a Southwest Airlines flight to Love Field. At that time, the then new stadium had a permanent hole in the roof directly over the playing field.  The spectator seats were covered by the roof. Coming in as the plane banked for its landing approach I looked down, and there it was- Cowboy stadium with the holy Trinity clearly visible on the roof their feet dangling in the air below watching their team beat Washington.

  The new stadium has a closeable roof.  It seats something like 102,000.  The site of the old stadium was cleared last summer with a public display of the explosion that reduced it to a pile of rubble in seconds.

[HaroldArnold]

Babi asks good questions in her message 215:, Why is an American military action always referred to as an expedition, and a Comanche action referred to as a raid?

My only answer is that from the view point of the 19th century Texans the Comanche purpose was thievery and murderous devilry, hence the use of the word raid.  The purpose of the settlers was to punish the perpetrators of an atrocious act A punitive Expedition to punish for a grievous wrong.  Hence they used the word expedition.

Are we wrong in continuing to use this verbiage today?

[JeanClark]

Yes when they went into settlelments of the inocent indians and killed and burned without conscience. We seem to have aproblem separating our friends from our enemies in this country even  in these times. We have a very poor record with the supporting of abusive governments and need to wake up and see the light. The mexican government used the southern settlers to pave the way for them and to help get rid of the troublemaking indians and the american government footed the bill for the army. So the Mexicans got a free ride but it didnt work out as well for them as they had planned. I guess that I am a proponant of th Monroe Doctrine. Keep out of my affairs and I will keep out of yours,all this globalization has done nothing less than weakening our country.

[Frybabe]

all this globalization has done nothing less than weakening our country.

I agree, Jean.

[Aberlaine]

Babi asks good questions in her message 215:, Why is an American military action always referred to as an expedition, and a Comanche action referred to as a raid?

My tongue-in-cheek answer is, it depends on who's writing the history books.

Nancy

[HaroldArnold]

At today’s end we will complete the first week’s discussions relating to Chapters 1 througe7.  Tomorrow we will begin the 2nd week relative to chapters 8 through 13.  at which point the management will replace the current heading question with the following seven new questions relative to Chapters 8 through 13.  Please consider them beginning tomorrow in formulation your discussion posts.

Discuss Cynthia Ann’s life among the Comanche.  Does it appear that she was worst treated than other Comanche women?   Contrasts Cynthia Ann’s treatment with the treatment of other Anglo Women held by the Comanche, Matilda Lockhart, Banca Banc Babbs, & Malinda Ann Caudell.  

What did our book tell of the early life of Quanah and his younger brother Peanuts?  

Discuss some of the early instances in which Anglo or Mexican men visited Cynthia’s Ann’s Comanche Village.  What attempt if any did they make that might have obtained her release?

Who were Charles Goodnight, John Coffee Hays, and Rip Ford?  What role did they play in the long war with the Comanche and effort to find Cynthia Ann and obtain her release?

Who was James W. Parker?  What are some of his efforts to rescue his niece Cynthia Ann Parker.  What major 1950’s movie did his efforts inspire?

Describe the circumstances of Cynthia Ann’s “rescue.”  What was her mental state and what effort was made to help her reprogram for living in 19th century Texas?  What was the attitude of her Parker family a having Cynthia Ann back among them.

What effect did the Civil War have on the Texas Frontier particularly the continuing Texas war with the Comanche?  

[Ella Gibbons]

HAROLD, we will get those questions in the heading ASAP for consideration in tomorrow's assignment.

NANCY was very perspicacious when she commented on the author of history books.  Is this a history book?  I don't think so, do any of you?  Did Gwynne mean for it to be read as history - as history of the Comanche tribe?

I don't know, it reads more like fiction and, undoubtedly, he meant for it to be entertaining.  Is this how history should be written?

We've been told that our children are not getting taught history, so, perhaps, Gwynne knows how to write it?

What do you think?

[Ella Gibbons]

A few comments before we leave this first week's chapters.  Buffalo Hump!   What a name - what a battle he led - Wow!  What a movie the Battle of Plum Creek would make.

It seemed they were winning until they met up with a group of fearless young men who had come west looking for trouble, looking to fight Indians. 

This battle "signified the beginning of the shift in fighting style that would find its true form in the next few years in the Texas Rangers."

Perhaps it's just I'm not reading carefully, but it seems to me that it took a long time for the white man to learn how to fight Comanches; the battles went on and on up to 1870. 

We know the Indians loved their horses, they bred them well, they rode them fast, they stole them from their enemies.  Gwynne tells us this over and over, so why did not the white man just steal into their camps and stampede their horses.  So kill their horses, get rid of them, herd them over the cliffs.   It seems it would have ended it all more quickly.

[Jonathan]

"I looked down, and there it was."

Harold, I'm cracking up over what you saw. The famous Trio, perched on the edge of the stadium roof, watching the game. That's better than the original story. It was an entertaining game last night. Wasn't that a nice touch for the winning quarterback to say To God be all the glory. Said it twice, in fact. He knew he was being watched. Did you notice how often he raised his eyes to the roof?

Thanks, CallieinOK, for the info about filming True Grit. With those high mountains, I knew it couldn't be Texas, or Oklahoma, and yet they kept talking about being in Indian Territory, which was mostly OK, wasn't it? The plot concerns a killer being brought to justice. I got the impression that the federal government had exclusive jurisdiction in the Territory, Was that so? Our book mentions Indian Agents and Indian Commissioners which suggests there was considerable government policy and activity in Indian affairs. Were the Comanches in our story beyond the reach of that long arm of the law?

The killer was also wanted in Texas. What gave me a laugh was the info that the reward for his apprehension was much greater in Texas than it was in OK. We all know there's a lot of money down there. Even then? Is it any wonder that the Comanches were kidnapping women and children for the ransom money? Like horse thievery wasn't enough?

[HaroldArnold]

Ella:  If this book isn't history, what is it?  For me it is a well researched,well documeted chapter of both the Comanche and Texas history.
  If it reads like a novel,  perhaps iit is because it is written in an interesting manner.

[CallieOK]

Jonathan,  comparing the area in which the True Grit story took place (far eastern/southeastern OK) and that of the book in this discussion (basically west of today's I-35 in both OK and TX) is like comparing apples and oranges.  Indians and Lawmen in both areas - but very different situations.

Harold, I agree that the book is a well researched history of the Comanches, Texas, part of Oklahoma - and the era.
Gwynne's background is in journalism and I think he did a good job writing more than "just the facts, ma'am" in that he personalized the stories to some extent.  However, he did not fictionalize by stating what this one or that one "thought" or "said" - unless he directly quoted a reference.  

[Frybabe]

Okay, it is officially the 8th here. I have a question. On p104 Gwynne writes about Bianca Banc, "Her written chronicle remains the only first-person narrative of a girl's captive time with a southern plains tribe." I thought Rachel Plummer's narrative was a first-person account. Did I read wrong?

[Babi]

HAROLD, that was Jonathan's question. I quoted it because I also
thought it was a good question, too.
  I think it was fairly plain that Cynthia Ann Parker was not 'worse-
treated'. On the contrary, she seems to have been adopted into a
tribe, treated no differently than the Comanche women, and made a
home and family there.

 

[JoanP]

Isn't it wonderful to have this group to talk with - about the book, of course, but also about personal

experience and knowledge of the west - today. I'm finding myself giving more thought to the Indians (is it PC to use "Indians"  - or better to use "Native Americans"? I read that when Mexicans refer to the "indios"  it is a deragatory
term.)  I am really interested to hear how the Native Americans have assimilated into today's society - in the west. Do they attend public schools - etc?

MaryZ, according to Mirabeau Lamar High School's web site, they considered changing the name of the football team to "Rangers"  but decided to continue with "Redskins."
Ella mentioned the "Washington Redskins" the other day.  Yesterday I opened the sports page of the Washington Post to Courtland Milloy's column - about the "Redskins" issue. I'll paste here a little of the article...

"Hurl that offensive "Redskins" name out of bounds the way a quarterback would to keep from being
sacked.
Bench the faux Indian mascot, while you're at it.
That's how you attack the use of disparaging images.

In an interview on WJFK (106.7 FM) the other day with Washington Post columnist and radio host Mike Wise, Dan Snyder, owner of the Redskins,  said, "The name [Redskins] is not meant to be offensive
whatsoever."

Suzan Harjo, a Muscogee and Cheyenne Indian who lives in the District, has been hoping for years that  you'd come to see it that way, too, Dan. Harjo was the lead plaintiff in a lawsuit against the team that was filed in 1992. A panel of three trademark judges ruled unanimously in her favor and canceled  the trademark licenses, but Snyder won on appeal(!?)

"We were happy when Snyder became the team owner in part because he was young and Jewish," Harjo told me recently. "We thought he would get the connection between the historic oppression of Jews and Native Americans and understand the role that stereotypes and caricatures played in it. We were stunned to learn that he had zero understanding."

I remember asking Floyd "Red Crow" Westerman, the late Sioux poet and human rights activist, back in 2003 why he thought Washington's football team had become unimaginably lousy since you took over.
He replied, "There is a karma that comes around when people are disrespectful and arrogant, and it develops discontent within the ranks."

[JoanP]

"In 1520 Indians numbered  11 million after Cortes arrived - numbers plummeted toONE million in 1650." Gwynne  

Babi, when you questioned these numbers, I went back to check Gwynne's footnote...was surprised to see

there wasn't one.  I wonder too where that number came from!

 Earlier I was wondering the same thing about the precise land measurements...acreage.  I guess it's

because I'm from the East...here, if you own one acre of land, you are rich!  Can you imagine each of the Parker  families being granted 4000 acres? I can't.

It wasn't until this week's chapters that question is answered - those surveyors were plentiful, weren't they?  The Indians feared them...they were capable of taking their land with their magical
instruments.
This week's question about the treatment of those kidnapped "little girls" - none of them complained of their treatment.  Rather they felt special and loved - though they returned home when ransomed.  They were valuable to the Comanches - for the ransom money.

Cynthia DID NOT WANT TO LEAVE HER husband. It seems the other little girls were returned within a year or two of their capture.  We aren't told why Cynthia was kept for so much longer than that.   I had been picturing her as a little blond girl for some reason.  Her  photograph in the midsection of this book dispelled that notion.  Did you see it? 

This is a photograph, not a drawing.  I was really surprised at her appearance...

[HaroldArnold]

Regarding Cynthia Ann's Ransom Price.:  One reason for Cynthia Ann's long tenure with the Comanche I think was due to the fact that after her abduction in 1836 it was near 10 years before a European actually saw her.  This was probably because during these years she was with one of the most isolate Comanche groups.  During this time her family had presumed she was dead.  It was in 1846 after the annexation when an Indian Agent Leonard H, Williams visited a Comanche group on the Washita river in Oklahoma where he met a blued white woman who turned out to be Cynthia Ann,  Williams tried to negotiate a ransom offering goods in princely proportions .  Though ransom  for release of Comanche captives was common, Williams offer was met with stern refusal.  Cynthia Ann's case was somehow different and the offer was dropped. It was five years before another Anglo again saw Cynthia Ann .  
  

[CallieOK]

Joan, I hope someone from Texas will address your question about Native American assimilation.

Here's a link to a Wikipedia article about Indian Boarding Schools

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_boarding_schools

and a quote from a Wikipedia article about Oklahoma schools in the 21st century: 

 Oklahoma had 631,337 students enrolled in 1,849 public primary, secondary, and vocational schools in 540 school districts as of 2006.[115] Oklahoma has the highest enrollment of Native American students in the nation with 120,122 students in the 2005-06 school year.

[JeanClark]

I lived on the Washington State Penninsula forseveral years. The reservaton was at the end of the  penninsula and I saw very little integration, they were a separate entity, had their own reservation with sub standard housing supplied by the government. Alcohoism and drugs are rampant. Rarely did anyone make it out to go to the Community College in Port Angeles and their rate of failurer was almost 100%. So much for assimilation. They wereandstill are regarded as second class citizens. AS far as Cynthia Parker was concerned she was certainly cared for and taught the Indian ways, just as she would have been taught the settlers ways. Would her life been any easier as a pioneer famers wife, I think not and she seemed to   have a lot more freedom than she would have had in the settlers community. There was probably some predjudices among the Indian women and repercussions on a small scale as she made a good union with Nacona as he took no other wives. Jealousy among women can be a vicious thing but he was probably powerful enout to keep it within reasonable limits.{Just speculation}. Now we have agroup of 007's who go into Texas with the freedom to kill withour answering to anyone with no gain to themselves. Never happen, there had to be  some rewards for them and some financing to get them started on their rampage. Who encouraged them?

[HaroldArnold]

Comments regarding estimates of Indian population and Integration of Indians into American society.

Regarding Population Estimates:  I think we should always be suspicious of estimates of Indian populations in Colonial times.  First and foremost we must remember that there were no censuses so they are all some ones guess or at best estimate based of very limited factual knowledge.  Often these were no more than guess since some times the educated guess of someone who lived with a particular tribe gave such a person the ability to make  reasonably accurate estimates of a local population.  Regarding larger areas like a total for North America a decent estimate is harder to come by and probably not of much value.  I remember just 20 years ago hearing guesses of 1 or 2 million for all the continent North of the Rio Grange.  I think Current guesses are significantly higher.   Also the population in Mexico and Central America in1 500 appears to have been much denser than in the north.

Regarding Integration of Indians into American Society:  There is a large group of ordinary American who claim Indian ancestors, living and working in our present society.  They often have no present tribal or reservation affiliation.   Their life is well integrated into our present social structure, yet just as Americans of other ethnic group tend to remember their root traditions and National holidays, so do these Indians  tend to remember theirs.

Reservation Indians are another matter since the Reservation created by Federal law recognizes a significant degree of Tribal Sovereignty.  I don’t want to get into details of this complex legal structure since I am not insufficiently informed to do so.  It is my observation from my past visitations to Taos and several reservations in the area that the Indians often live in small modern houses on the reservation.  They hold jobs on the reservation or off the reservation where they work for private firms and government agencies just like other Americans.. 
 

[kiwilady]

Just from an outsiders point of view my son who spent a year in North America felt that Native Americans ( ones with more Indian blood than European blood ) were second class citizens. We still have a divide here. However I do think we are making strides because the Maori culture is recognised and the culture is part of mainstream NZ. We are a country with two official languages NZ and Maori. Navel gazing is painful, divisive at times but I think in the end will be worth it. We are a nation of navel gazers and self critics and because we are small nothing much can be hidden. I hope in another three generations we will have completely merged. Reclaiming a culture can have huge benefits. Restoration of pride is the biggest gain and that leads to higher ambitions.

I am sure the Indian population was truly decimated as our native population was here when the white man came. Diseases never encountered by the Natives ( like measles for instance) would have killed many as they had absolutely no immunity to these new diseases.

As I read this book it does remind me so far of the books I read as a child about our history. A  glorification of colonialism. I see history in a hugely different light as I have grown older.


I agree with the other poster. Cynthia Parker would have had much more freedom as a Comanche tribal member than she would have had in White society.

[Ella Gibbons]

But such drama, HAROLD, for a history.  Fascinating to read, but like no history book I've ever read.

A whole chapter on Cynthia Parker, all it seems from a privately printed book or pamphlet by a James DeShields, 1886. (see NOTES)

Yes, JOANP, Cynthia looks very sad in her photograph, maybe I missed the place in the book that described how this photo came to be???s  She was with her Indian family throughout her life wasn't she?

As for how the ranks of the native Indians came to be so decimated, the book on pg. 110 tells of the horrible diseases that ravaged the "empire under the bright summer moon."

The band that Cynthia was with, particularly, was susceptible to the diseases of the white man.  And then the 49ers brought cholera with them which had broken out in Europe, crossed the ocean and spread rapidly.

For a year or two after my husband died I was at a retirement center before I bought my condo and there was a fellow there, a scientist, who had worked years in Argentina on a vaccination for malaria and was very disappointed they had not been successful.  We have come far, but will never conquer it all.

CAROLYN, I don't live anywhere around the reservations so I cannot speak about the assimilation of the Indians into our society, but from what I read from time to time our native people are still second class citizens.  How this can be altered I have no idea.

THANKS AGAIN, EVERYONE, FOR YOUR INTEREST AND YOUR POSTS!

[Frybabe]

Since I haven't figured out yet how to post a pix (aren't you all very,very lucky), I'll just give you a link to a pix of the 1838 Colt .36. Scroll down a bit to see it. http://www.rfostermuseum.com/artifact_archive.asp

[Jonathan]

That Texas Paterson is a mean-looking gun. Thanks for the pic, Frybabe. Wouldn't you like to figure out how that works?

Harold posts: It is a well researched, well documented chapter of both the Comanche and Texas history.

Thanks for the reassurance, Harold. I feel I'm getting an authentic picture of the clash between Indian and White in that area in those forty or so years. The author has put a lot of drama into his historical narrative, for which he supplies a suitable amount of researched accounts. He admits it wasn't alway easy to find the truth, even exclaiming at one point: Such are the legends of the West.

That had to do with the various accounts of the Parker side of the story. I get the feeling that the author was uncertain of the role played by various members of the Parker clan. What a strange character that James Parker, Cynthia Ann's uncle. A nasty description on page 119, including the curious statement: Though an odor of impropriety, untruth, and general malfeasance haunts his life, he was never convicted of anything.

I know it may seem wild to suggest this, but, perhaps, life wasn't that easy in the fort. Perhaps Lucy hoped that life for her daughter might be easier with the Comanches. She was, as we read, weeping, but she did place her terrified daughter on the rear flank of a Comanche mustang. (p110) I have to think that a mother would fight with her life to keep her child out of the hands of a savage, and I have to wonder about Cynthia Ann's reluctance to return to her family.

I use the word savage advisedly. There were occasions when it must have been difficult to distinguish between the Noble Savage of the New World, and the Civilized Savage from across the sea.

[Babi]

 JOANP, I might be willing to let an long-established 'Redskin'
pass, but a 'faux Indian mascot' is definitely offensive.
  Actually, I can easily imagine a 4000 acre land grant. The huge
King Ranch began with a Mexican land grant of 15,500 acres. Texas
was not only huge, it was mostly empty.

 Hasn't it often been said, ELLA, that truth is stranger than
fiction? History should be fascinating. A dry recitation of names
and dates doesn't begin to touch the reality, and unfortunately
history is too often taught that way.

James Parker was a complex character, wasn’t he?   Gwynne says he  was mainly known as the man who searched for the Parker captives.  I imagine he was driven to,  given his carelessness had been responsible for their capture and the death of other family members.  He also seems to have been a considerable scoundrel.  Hero?  Villain?  Both?