Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C. Gwynne ~ February Book Club Online

[Ella Gibbons]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

Empire of the Summer Moon  by S.C.Gwynne

February Book Club Online  

It's an AMERICAN STORY.  THE U.S. ARMY, TEXAS RANGERS - SETTLERS- ALL AGAINST THE INDIANS The year was 1871 and the final destruction of the last of the hostile tribes was just beginning after 250 years of bloody combat.  The end of the Civil War had brought many new people to the west searching for land, adventure, glory. By this time the Indians had seen the buffalo depart, they were cadging food, stealing horses and other useful artifacts or ornamental things from the white man.   Some learned to speak Spanish or English.  All loved clothing and blankets made of cotton or wool, and the  accumulation of white man's artifacts.  It was a sort of cultural pollution that could not be stopped. And then there were the white captives; particularly a white squaw who had lived with the Indians, married, had a son named Quanah who became the last great Comanche War Chief.  An epic saga!  A fascinating  book! Come join us as we discuss the integration of the Indians into a civilized world.

Map of Great Plains - shaded in red

Discussion Schedule Feb. 8 - 14    Chapters 8 - 13 Feb. 15 - 21  Chapters 14-18 Feb  22 - 28  Chapters 19 -22

Great Plains near Nebraska

       

   

Talking Points
Feb. 8-14 ~ Chapters 8-13

1. Discuss Cynthia Ann’s life among the Comanche.  Does it appear that she was worse-treated than other Comanche women?   Contrast Cynthia Ann’s treatment with the treatment with other Anglo Women held by the Comanche: Matilda Lockhart, Banca Banc Babbs, & Malinda Ann Caudell.  

2. What did our book tell of the early life of Quanah and his younger brother, Peanuts?  

3. Discuss some of the early instances in which Anglo or Mexican men visited Cynthia’s Ann’s Comanche Village.  What attempt if any did they make that might have obtained her release?

4. Who were Charles Goodnight, John Coffee Hays, and Rip Ford?  What role did they play in the long war with the Comanche and the effort to find Cynthia Ann and obtain her release?

5. Who was James W. Parker?  What are some of his efforts to rescue his niece Cynthia Ann Parker.  What major 1950’s movie did his efforts inspire?

6. Describe the circumstances of Cynthia Ann’s “rescue.”  What was her mental state and what effort was made to help her reprogram for living in 19th century Texas?  What was the attitude of her Parker family, having Cynthia Ann back among them.

7. What effect did the Civil War have on the Texas Frontier particularly the continuing Texas war with the Comanche?  


Related Links: Interview with author, S.C. Gwynne ; Listen to C-SPAN Interview HERE ;
MAP of Texas; Historical Maps of Texas ; Tribal Map of Oklahoma ;
All about the Red River (Mississippi River) ;
The Die is Cast ;

 

Discussion Leaders:  Ella & Harold

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Ella Gibbons Post

What a mean looking gun that is, FRYBABE, but the items on display are very interesting.  Love that black pottery!

True, BABI, none of us like dull facts and figures in history lessons, but I doubt Gwynne wrote this book to teach history.  I never knew a history book to end up near the top of the NYT nonfiction reading list.  Hurray for history books, if this be so!

Now I loved history, in school.  It was never dull facts and figures.  My teacher divided us up as North and South and we had to debate the Civil War and you were graded on it!!!  You came prepared to be on either side.  True of the Revolutionary War and WWI.  Then I toook World History in college and again fell in love with the subject.  Lucky me, I was never bored with it.

Yes, James Parker was a character; I think Gwynne used every adjective he had in his vocabulary to describe the man.    Has anyone seen the movie THE SEARCHERS starring John Wayne in the role of James Parker and Natalie Wood as Cynthia?

If I were Cynthia Parker I would never have stayed with my white relatives either.   "People were under no illusions about what had happened to them (captured women).  They knew with great specificity what Plains Indians did to adult women, and thus repatriated captives were usually objects of pity.  If they were married, their husbands often would not take them back."  They would have been an embarrassment.

The story of Rachel Parker Plummer's return home from being captured is almost unbelievable!  When she finally arrived home in very bad health she prayed for her son and her own peaceful death.  

[Ella Gibbons]

Did you ever hear of the TREATY OF GUADALUPE HIDALGO?

Neither did I, but here is what it did for America - all I can say is this was pretty great stuff for the country.

Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (Tratado de Guadalupe Hidalgo in Spanish) is the peace treaty, largely dictated by the United States[1][2] to the interim government of a militarily occupied Mexico City, that ended the Mexican-American War (1846 – 48). With the defeat of its army and the fall of the capitol, Mexico in September 1847 the Mexican government surrendered to the United States and entered into negotiations to end the war.

Mexico ceded to the United States Upper California and New Mexico. This was known as the Mexican Cession and included present-day Arizona and New Mexico and parts of Utah, Nevada, and Colorado (see Article V of the treaty). Mexico relinquished all claims to Texas and recognized the Rio Grande as the southern boundary with the United States

the USA gained "an instant 66 percent increase in its total landmass; in terms of land gained, it was as though France had acquired Germany."

Facts and figures, yes, but those are tremendous facts and figures!   As Gwynne said this treaty created the 'PHYSICAL NATION" as opposed to Appomattox Courthouse creating a unified nation.

[Ella Gibbons]

THE INTERNET IS A MARVELOUS THING!  HERE IS THE WESTERN UNITED STATES IN 1848:  ISN'T THAT INTERESTING?

OR AM I ALONE IN THINKING SO?

http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/treaty_guadalupe_hidalgo_map.htm

[bookad]

Ella-about the boundaries of nations, it seems in the past they have always been changing, Mexico went from one group of Indian to another to those who were in Mexico city when the Spanish arrived to take their turn...after reading a history of Mexico I was surprised to find how few centuries separated  the Spanish from  the American holding of Texas   

I wish I could say I enjoyed history as a student, perhaps if I had gone to university, but high school history was very superficial and it has mainly been in the last 15 years reading on my own I have found books and become fascinated by what has gone on, what is going on, what is....and how confusing various perspectives are --even reading sadly in some countries ...a rewriting of history to enhance a countries image for their generation being schooled...

and how will that influence world history??

I wasn't able to renew the book last week but am keeping up with the discussions ....appreciate this author's work...what a book1

Deb

[CallieOK]

At an Elderhostel at the Witte Museum in San Antonio, I learned a way to help visualize the vastness of TX.  
All maps need to be the same scale - so use a United States Atlas.
Place the end of a string on El Paso TX.  Stretch the string to Texarkana and cut the piece.
Repeat for Amarillo to Corpus Christi or Padre Island.
Place one end of the string on the town/city where you live.   Stretch it in all directions and see where you'd end up if you traveled as far as it is across Texas.

High school history was "read the chapter and answer the questions at the end".   I only took the required history courses in college and, although I found them interesting, my focus was on subjects required for an Elementary Education degree.

I didn't really become interested until I began doing genealogy and became curious about the areas in which my ancestors lived - which led to an interest in the culture,  the westward migration, etc. etc. etc.

[Jonathan]

Everybody can learn to enjoy history if they can be made to see the narrative of the past, as Gwynne does with EMPIRE. And, Ella, you've posted a splendid answer to your own good question about writing history. Thanks for the most interesting map link. I've bookmarked it. Lots of interesting stuff there. It's certainly a very graphic picture of the physical growth of the U.S. It provides a good picture of the Louisiana Purchase marching across the West in step formation, as the book describes it. What an acquisition of territory came along with that Treaty of Guadaloupe Hidalgo!

Thanks to President Polk. I remember from the TEAM OF RIVALS book that Lincoln, trying to make political hay, was critical of Polk for taking the U.S. into the Mexican War. A bit of irony there. Called on, himself, some twenty years later, to save a Union, which had grown so monstrously under his predecessor.

Now back to that Emerson Kent website. It declares itself as History in a nutshell. Yup. Even vast Texas in that nutshell!

[Ella Gibbons]

How happy Texas must have been to get that treaty signed with Mexico, if they honored it!

Before then the republic was having a terrible time - raids from Mexico and Comanche raids from the north and west!  It was a wild wild west!  What hardy families would dare go there, well - those mean, s.ob. types.

But I have a question and haven't found an answer yet, maybe I haven't searched long enough.

How did Mexico get or believe they had all those lands in the modern states of Arizona, Colorado, Utah, New Mexico, California, Nevada???  Who gave them that land that the USA had to purchase for $15 million dollars.  A lot of land here  and there  we are dredging up and giving away to that country, that settler, that Indian tribe.  

My Gosh, it's all too much to take in unless you want to make a study of it.  Maybe I can find a timeline of land taken, purchased, settled and by whom in the 19th century.

Now, JONATHAN, do you have it clear what the Commonwealth of England looks like today or what it looked like in the 19th century?

I believe it , DEB, boundaries are always changing, but my stodgy old state of Ohio just plods enough electing a president now and then!

CALLIE, I bet an easier way would be to google Texas on the Internet to find out how big iTexas is; besides I have no Atlas and no string.  No string.  I have no string  I used to use string for all sorts of things, but I have no string anywhere in the house.  Do you have string?  What does one use it for?

[HaroldArnold]

Ella Asked

>How did Mexico get or believe they had all those lands in the modern states of Arizona, Colorado, Utah, New Mexico, California, Nevada???  Who gave them that land that the USA had to purchase for $15 million dollars.  A lot of land here  and there  we are dredging up and giving away to that country, that settler, that Indian tribe. 

Mexico inherited California, Arizona etc from Spain after its successful revolution ending in 1821.  It was never claimed by the U.S. as a part of the Louisiana Purchase.  The U.S. claim to Pacific Ocean frontage was the extreme N.W. the watershed of the Columbia River, the area now the states of Washington and Oregon.

[HaroldArnold]

Cynthia Ann’s Uncle, James B. Parker was in interesting character in this plot.  His career included politics, (often shady), business (likewise often on the shady side, and Family including several extended searches for his niece, Cynthia Ann and other Parker family missings.    Though many of his political and business activities were on the shady side, as Jonthan said above, he never was convicted of anything.  He made several long, difficult, but unsuccessful prairie searches for his lost Niece, Cynthia Ann. 

In the 1950’ his search for his niece was the subject of a Book entitled.  “The Searchers.”  A movie followed later in the 1950’s staring John Wayne .   http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049730/ .  I don’t remember seeing the movie but I remember reading the book in an issue of the Reader’s Digest Condensed Books Club.

The character James B Parker did play an interesting role in this plot.  There is a “Parker County in West Texas, and I had presumed it was named for James.  Fortunately I check and find it was not.  It was Named for an Isaac Parker who I don’t remember meeting in the book.   

[Aberlaine]

I disliked history as a subject in school.  But I love reading books that are based on history.  This book is classified as non-fiction, not fiction, so I guess we can take it as fact.

Is anyone else having problems with placing all the events in chronological order?  Each chapter seems to cover a part of the "history" and might jump back in time.  The writings about the Parker family I can keep in order since the fort attack happened first, captives taken, some captives ransomed and returned, James Parker looks for remaining captives.  But what I'm having trouble with is overlaying the history of the west's development and the Comanche rise and fall with the events of the Parker family.  Maybe it's not important to the story.

[JoanP]

Callie, I'm not at home this week, but when I get back, I'm going to get out my Atlas and some string...(I've got string at home, Harold.)

Thank you so much for all the information on  Indian assimilation in Oklahoma, Washington, Texas and elsewhere..  I have mixed feelings about this now after reading about assimilation through total immersion and the praciice of removing students entirely from their cultural surroundings.  - I can see why this would be resented, asking these children to forsake their ethnic heritage. What is the solution?  I don't want to believe there isn't one!

Nancy - I think it IS important...especially when you consider the success the Texas Rangers had fighting the Indians and then the huge step backwards when Washington decided it had had enough of the Rangers and sent those dragoons in to fight on foot - losing so many more lives.  We need to put up some sort of a timeline.  What do you think, Ella, Harold?  Can we find one, make one?

[JoanP]

Jonathan-I share your mixed feelings on James Parker's story...though Rachel Plummer's tragic account really touched me. Her life never got any better when she teturned home.

I look at my little nine year old granddaughter.  I have to emphasize  little.  She is  Cynthia Parker's age when kidnapped.  My Lindsay sees amazing things...like fairies hiding in flowers.  She lives in a world of partial fantasy.  I guess I'm trying to say, she lives in another world that we have forgotten.  Life in the Parker fort couldn't have been easy.  Cynthia had been uprooted from her home and brought  to the middle of nowhere, where she must have had to work hard for a little girl.  When the attack came, she saw unspeakable atrocities...from which her own father was unable to protect her..
 
She is taken away from this ghastly scene  on the back of a horse, belonging to the most powerful man she ever saw= He took her to the Comanche camp where she was treated with care, with love. To protect herself she could have surpressed those terrible memories...even forgotten them.  When you are nine, you have this ability.  She would marry the man who treated her so well, who had been her protector for as long as she could remember..and bear his childen.  He even let let her choose their names, contrary to Comanche custom.
I'm not really surprised that she did not want to return to the Parkers. 


Jonathan, I didn't see "The Searchers" - How did Natalie Wood portray Cynthia?  Was John Wayne really
James Parker?  He must have been the hero then... I'll have to look for that on Netflix when we get home.

[salan]

I'm here reading and absorbing.  I lost a couple of long posts(and my train of thought), most frustrating.  As soon as my train of thought returns, I'll try again.  Maybe post shorter ones from now on in case they go off into cyber-space.  We have been travelling in territory that I am familiar with (literally).  When I was in junior high, my parents took us on an historical vacation.  We went to the Alamo, then to Goliad and finally to San Jacinto.  I'm afraid most of the trip was wasted on me as  at that age, I was more concerned with how I looked and if I would run into any cute guys on the trip.  I have been back to the Alamo several times and to numerous forts around the state.
Will write more later.
Sally

[CallieOK]

Ella,   No string.  I have no string  I used to use string for all sorts of things, but I have no string anywhere in the house.  Do you have string?  What does one use it for?     To tie around one's finger as a reminder?  To play "Cat's Cradle"?  To awe the grandchildren with something from "the old days"?      
Occasionally, I find a use for it - but, usually, it just takes up space in the "clutter" drawer.
It was just a suggestion.   Actually, just a map of the USA would be better than a multi-page atlas.

Joan,  "The Searchers" is available as a VCR and a DVD through my metro area library.  I'm going to reserve it as soon as it looks as if we can go more than a week without a major snow storm!

[JeanClark]

The Searchers really romanticized the quest and Natalie played a beautiful young woman dressed like an Indian and was returned to the bosom of her very loving family. Such a distortion of the truth about what happend to her in reality. her family rejected her and kept her hidden for so many years,no wonder she didnt have much to say. She had no input in the decision to keep her away from her Indian family but in later years they were going to send hr back but it was too late for both her and the Indian clan. Her tribe was not ethnically pure as they accepted all races especially the runaway Negroes and the Hispanics. They were a polyglot of races made from desperate people, perhaps that is what mede them so fierce and agressive.These people were also able to utilize the horses so it couldnt have been a pure commanche trait,just learning and experience.

[serenesheila]

Thank you, ELLA, for both the map, and the website.  I had forgotten that California was a part ot the treaty.  Without that treaty, where I live would be part of Mexico! 

Yes, I saw "The Searchers", many moons ago.  However, my memory is so poor, that I do not remember any of it.  Sigh   
Today, I will read, and by tomorrow, won't remember much of what I read.

I have been told that an ancestor of mine, was an early governor of Texas.  The man's name was Allred.  I tried to find information about him, on Ella's website of history, but to no avail.  I have done some genealogy, but haven't gotten to him, yet.  HAROLD, do you know anything about him?  I have been told that his picture hangs in the State House, in Austin.  He was either the father, or grandfather, of my maternal, gg grandmother, Lillie Mae Allred.

Sheila

[serenesheila]

History has always been an interest of mine.  I grew up in Southern California.  We studied Southern California history in several grades of 1-6.  All I really remember is about the Spanish explorers and the building of the Missions.  Then in between the 7th and 8th grades we moved to Northern California.  I have gone to most of the Missions in the State.  Many have been restored.  Are there any Missions in Texas?

In reading our book, and our discussions, many family stories are being remembered.  My paternal, great grandmother, Cora Estelle Ramsdell, had two brothers.  Ralph Ramsdell was Indian Agent, near Kallispell, Montana in the late 1890s.  She lived with him, at times.  One of her stories was about baking bread in their kitchen, and turning around to find one, or more, Indians standing behind her, watching.  Both Cora and Ralph told me many stories of those days but most have been forgotten.  I wish that I had paid more attention!  My Uncle Ralph was still alive when I was a young girl, and he often visited my grandmother.  He was full of stories.

Their younger brother, Will Ramsdell, was a State Senator, for Montana.  He helped to write the State Constitution.  I do have a picture of him, and an invitation for him to attend an anniversary celebration of the Constitution.  Sure do wish I knew more about that side of my family.  But, reading our book is giving me a lot of senses of connection.


Sheila

[Babi]

  You know, the questions remind me so much of a history assignment or quiz from my school days. Ella and Harold, which one of you is the
history teacher?
 I loved history, too, ELLA. You had a great teacher in the one who
had the class debating the Civil War issues. I did see "The Searchers"
and remember being horrified by the attitude toward women captives.
 And I had never realized the importance of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, that  Mexico had given up what now amounts to over half the United States, until I read it in Gwynne's book.

  CALLIE, I can see why you found high school history boring. Your
teacher obviously wasn't very interested, either. Now, though, you
have a whole new interest to explore.

 SHEILA, the Alamo was a Spanish mission. There were, in all, 26
missions established by Jesuits, Dominicans or Franciscans. There
were five in the San Antonio area, but I don't know if any other
than the Alamo still survive.  You have a very interesting family history,
by the way.  How lucky that some of them were so long-lived and you
got to hear some of their stories.

[HaroldArnold]

Shelia:  Indeed I remember James Allred as the First Texas Governior that I became aware of when he was still in office This was in the mid 1930's  I was like 10 years old so I dont really remember any details concering his administration.  The political events I do remember at that time was the 1936 Roosevelt win for his  econd term and the Constitional crisis in the UK occasioned by the aAblication of King Edward VIII. 

There is much on the Web.concerning your relative's Administration I like the Handbook of Texas that is the Web Page of the Texas Historical society since it is the home page of the Texas Historical Society that monitors the authenticity of its pages. I recommend this site for information on all things Texas.

http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/fal42

[CallieOK]

Babi, I began "exploring" History in my late 20's (eons ago!!) when we moved to Leadville, Colorado. In my 30's, I inherited a box of family "stuff" that included correspondence, scrapbook pages, election certficates, etc. from the mid 1880's through the 1920's.  That led to beginning family genealogy...which led to...and to... (you know how that goes!).
In my 40's, we moved to Oklahoma (actually, I returned after 20 years away) and I've been "exploring" ever since!


As a result of being snowed in for most of the last week, I made a chart comparing the experiences of the four captives mentioned in this week's Discussion Questions.     
Banca and Melinda were ransomed within months of their captivity, Rachel and Matilda returned in two years.
Quoting from page 103:  "(Cynthia Ann) stayed out (of white society) for twenty four years, enough time to forget almost everything she had once known..., to marry and have three children and live the full, complex, and highly specialized life of a Plains Indian." End quote

Matilda Lockhart told her story to the "authorities" when she was taken to San Antonio for ransom.
Banca and Rachel wrote memoirs "after the fact".
Melinda Caudle gave one interview, which was published.
Almost all the information about Cynthia Ann's experiences came from speculation.

It's been interesting to see the differences listed side by side.

 

[serenesheila]

Thank you, soooo much, HAROLD, for the information about James Allred, and the Texas website.  He could not have been my Ggrandfather, or GGGrandfather.  I was born in 1934, when you say James Allred was governor.  Perhaps he was the decendent of the Governor I am thinking of.  I had the impression that my Allred was governor in the mid, to late 1840s, or 1850s.  My grandmother was born in 1890, and her mother was the Allred.

I look forward to exploring the website you have shareed with me.  I kno that my maternal grandmother was born in Bowie, Texas.  Can you tell me where that is in Texas?

BABI, boy so I feel dumb!  I had no idea that the Alamo was a Mission.  In fact, I was under the definite opinion that California was the only State where Missions were built!  No one teaching history in California ever mentioned any other States where there were Missions. 

Sheila

[HaroldArnold]

Shelia- Sorry, but that 1930's guy is the only Allred that became a Texas Governor.  The link below is a complete list with links to Presidents of the Republic and Mexican and Spanish Governors going back to the early 18th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Governors_of_Texas

For information on Bowie Texas just Google the town name.  

Regarding the San Antonio Missions. the 4 lower Missions, Conception. San Jose, San Juan , and San Francisco de la Espada are operated by the National Park Service as The San Antonio Missions  National Historical Park.  I am a Docent at Espada where I con be found in the visitor's center office most Sunday Afternoons.

The Alamo is preserved and operated by the State of Texas.  It is by far the most visited with a daily count of several thousands a day.   In contrast at Espada on a week end day we general have from 1 to 2 hundred.    I'll see if I can set up an internet blog with mission pictures and Information.



























san Jose.

[JoanP]

Well, this gets more and more exciting each day!  Sheila, it is so interesting to explore your family history along with you - in this context! Harold is on your case now!
 I have "collected" missions in CA too...but never visited any in Texas.  It makes sense that there would be some, given the proximity to Mexico.

For some reason I was surprised to hear there were large Mexican armies at the border (border?) as late as 1842.  With the Mexican armies to the south and the Comanches to the north and west, what would you say were the odds that the pioneer ranchers and farmers would succeed with their settlements?  I wouldn't have put my money on them.

Last night I finally caught up - read Chapters 12 and 13 - and now see that Cynthia Ann Parker did in fact remember her early life - did remember the "raid" - the slaughter and torture of her family members.  And yet, she was more upset at the loss of her husband than she was her own family.  It was sad that she was never reunited with her sons before she died, wasn't it?  I read what happened to Quanah in Chapter 13 - am waiting to hear what became of Peanuts.

After reading Callie's information about the boarding schools which were established to immerse the Indian children in American culture, I remember feeling some outrage at the cruelty of making them adapt to new names, religion, language.  I felt sorry for them and yet isn't that exactly what happened to Cynthis when she was nine - complete immersion into the  Comanche culture?
It worked, didn't it?  I thought it was interesting that she had totally forgotten English, but she COULD speak Spanish!
How do you suppose that happened?  The poor girl...she ending up NOT belonging anywhere.  Do you think that's how the Indians on reservations feel...?

[maryz]

There's also a town in Texas called Mission.  This is a link to the google map for it - it's near where I spent last weekend, in what's called The Valley - the strip of towns along the lower Rio Grande Valley in Texas.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

[CallieOK]

Joan, your use of the present tense when asking about Native Americans' feelings, living conditions, etc.  bothers me.  As an example of what the Comanche Nation is today, please browse through this link:

http://www.comanchenation.com/

You might Google other tribes for their Nation's website if you are interested.

[Jonathan]

The comanchenation link in CallieinOK's post is a good answer to Joan's question. The same question, in different forms, has been running through my mind. After all, the subtitle of our book is

The Rise and Fall of the Comanches, the Most Powerful Indian Tribe in American History

But what about today? Where are they? How are they doing? It's very interesting to be getting information from you who are close to the scene. And, really, all the events described in the book are still very close historically, aren't they?

From the link: The Comanches defended their land from all intruders.

Gwynne in one place tells his readers, and I'm paraphrasing: if the  Comanches had  recorded and left their version of events it might have been a different story. I think Gwynne is careful to give both sides of this unusual history.

[Babi]

 Don't feel dumb, SHEILA. Every State focuses on educating it's
students in the history of their own state. Most of what I learned
about California history was from historical novels. I still have vast
areas of ignorance about States that are not as popular with writers.
  It is very easy for a child to misunderstand family history. Hearing
about your 'grandfather' who was governor, he would have seemed very old indeed as young as you were. I was surprised when you wrote that he was still living and told you stories. The family history is right;
it's just the datelines and relationships that were misunderstood.

 Back to the Comanches,  I find   somewhat contradictory statements  by Mr. Gwynne.  At one point   he says that the Comanches had no word for surrender; that all fights were a fight to the death.  Yet he also writes that  the Comanche would also break off a fight and flee if the loses became too heavy, or if the loss of a key leader persuaded them that their ‘medicine’ was bad.
 Then, Ah, bureaucracy in action!   I understand that the brand new Republic of Texas had very little in the way of funds, but the business of the newly formed Rangers was really ridiculous. The government  made the group official, but provided no guns, no horses, no uniforms, provisions , or barracks.  No officers were appointed; they arose through personal merit and common acceptance..   Oh, yes!  The government did supply ammunition!  I can only suppose they had plenty of that on hand.

[ANNIE]

I noticed that someone thought it would help if they had a timeline for Texas so I searched and this is one of three that I found.  I will look for a real timeline and see what is on Google.

http://www.lsjunction.com/events/events.htm

[HaroldArnold]

Re: the Comanche  attitude toward Surrender:  I don’t see any great conflict between the absence of the word surrender in the Comanche language and the frequent examples off Comanche making sudden withdrawals from battle when they were outnumbered and out gunned in particular battles described in the book.  It was simply a case of running away to fight another day under conditions more favorable to them.  It was just a common sense maneuver necessary to win the continuing war.  If It was a surrender It had to wait until the end in 1775 when there were no more  than a few thousand Comanche left in the World that Quanah did the only thing left to do.  But now I am ahead off our 2nd week schedule on a subject that had best be left for later

[HaroldArnold]

Thank you AdoAnnie  for your Texas History Time Line link AdoAnnie.  I read it from the beginning to the end of the Civil War and Reconstruction.  I agree it gives an Interesting over view of Texas History from the beginning of the first European contact just after 1500.  I urge you all to read it. http://www.lsjunction.com/events/events.htm

Also thank you CallieinOK, for your link to the Comanche Nation Internet site.  A study of the pages comprising this site will provider information on the Comanche people today.  http://www.comanchenation.com/  

[ANNIE]

And here's a horizontal timeline where the Indians are covered along the yellow line.  Not too much info but some.  And its animated!

http://www.animatedatlas.com/timeline.html

[CallieOK]

I love Time Lines!   Thank you to all who are providing them.

[Ella Gibbons]

WELL, I'VE BEEN OUT FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS AND IT'S SO GREAT TO COME BACK INTO THE DISCUSSION AND READ ALL YOUR POSTS.  

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH!  

And thanks, ANN, for those timelines.  So much to read and absorb!  As BABI stated earlier, I have been so ignorant of states' histories and, particularly, Texas history.

We all know where it is, we all know it is a big and wealthy state where  the George H.W. and George W. Bush families live, where there is oil and border problems.  And Dallas happened.  

But I had no idea that the settlers were still fighting Indians after the Civil War!  No idea at all.

JONATHAN and JOANP, thanks to you both for your comments about the Comanches and Cynthia, in particular; don't you think Cynthia was as happy with her little family as one could be.  There she is working around the teepee, Daddy went hunting for their dinner, and her three children - Quanah, Peanuts and Prairie Flower - all playing or helping her.  Sounds peaceful.  Gwynne describes her life (pg.152) in a large Comanche camp, with about 500 other members; they had everything they needed.  

The camp was located near the present-day town of Quanah.  It was lovely country, hills and steep ridges surrounding it.  

And then Gwynne treats us to a story that is a bit familiar to many of us - the bureaucracy composed of "people in cravats and waistcoats who lunched at fancy hotels and lived two thousand miles from the border."

That was Washington in the 1850's; sound familiar?

Many blunders were made.  Chapter Eleven tells us all about it.  I just finished reading it and one understands why it took so long to settle the Indian Wars.

Could there have been better decisions other than to settle the Indians on reservations?  It was absurd to put them there, no Comanche could stay in one place long, how could they hunt, they never farmed, didn't know how.

What amazes me is why they didn't fish - what was wrong with eating fish?  Or game, such as wild turkey or pheasant?  I think that is strange.

But I have rattled on too long.  There is so much to talk about in these chapters.

What are your thoughts today?

[Ella Gibbons]

QUANAH, TEXAS:     -   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quanah,_Texas

[serenesheila]

HAROLD, I went back, today, and read the info about James Allred more carefully.  Then, read info on the website you gave me.  Very interesting!  Thank you for helping me.  I do not remember who told me that Allred was a g or gg grandfater, but obviously they were wrong.

I am surprised that my maternal grandmother never talked about James Allred.  She and my grandfather talke much of the time about Huey Long.  I got the timpression he was a relative, but he wasn't.  LOL 

BABI, my uncles are no longer alive.  But, they were when I was a youngster.  They were on my paternal side.  My paternal, great grandmother was alive until I was 30 years old.  Her mind was good until she died.

Thanks for the great Texas websites, and timeline.  I have added them to my favorites list.

For the past couple of days, I have been thinking a lot about the American Indian women.  I am very grateful I was not born female, in the 1700, or 1800s.  All of that work they had to do.  Reading about Cynthia Ann's appearance when she was returned to anglo life, made me shudder.  Covered with greese and blood.  Ughhh  Life has been so much easier for me.  I can understand though how she wanted to retunr to her Comanche family.  How sad that her little daugfhter died.  I wonder if she ever knew that Quanoh lived?

Sheila

[Aberlaine]

I haven't quite finished the reading for this week, but have a few comments.

Babi, I agree with you about students in certain states learning only the history of their state.  I was raised in Connecticut and mostly what I learned was about the colonies, the Revolutionary War and Connecticut's role in it.  We didn't learn in detail the growth of the United States other than when the rest of the states became part of it.  We did study the Civil War - from the perspective of the North.

I found it interesting that, at first, the Army was at a disadvantage in fighting the Comanche because they were taught to ride into battle, then dismount.  But when the Rangers took over, the disadvantage went to the Comanche since "They reacted to a given situation -- such as the killing of their war chief or medicine man -- in exactly the same way, every time.  They were easily spooked." (p143)  So the Rangers could predict the action of the Comanche and therefore attempted to kill the chief first.

[ANNIE]

 I mentioned that I have been reading two books here as I accidently came upon The Captured while looking for The Empire of the Summer Moon so I checked both out.  Very interesting books and both well written. Here's a link to The Captured, just in case you want some more info on the children and women who were captured.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ut13Z3yz0uEC&pg=RA4-PT6&lpg=RA4-PT6&dq=The+Captured+by+scott+zesch-photos+in+book&source=bl&ots=VL4W45C2mR&sig=KBtos_H3FWBLEkeO9b4zjmxOmws&hl=en&ei=_PVVTa38L8mr8Abi_LiqBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CFAQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q&f=false

  I was particularlyl impressed with the remark made by Michael Wallis, author of The Real Wild West.  He says about The Captured:
" Brings to light the start truth of the cultural clash between Native Americans and white settlers, told against a back drop of bigotry and fear on the Texas frontier. Reveals that both sides in the conflict were capable of alternating acts of compassion and brutality.  Helps readers realize how white youths taken captive by Comanche warriors would often struggle between returning to their homes and blood ties and clinging to the nomadic lifestyle that some of them came to love.

Harold
I did just finish reading your suggested timeline link and its very well done but I wish it went up to 1924 when three of the boys that were captured in the 1800's attended a Reunion in Texas where they came together with some of the Comanche and Apache indians whom they knew during their time with the indians.  Great pictures are included in the above mentioned book, of the year that the Comanches and white settlers held a truce meeting in 18---??  The pictures were actualally artistic renditions of the meetings.  One by an administer's daughter who was there.  I tried to locate copies of the pics but so far no luck.

[CallieOK]

Look what I found re: The Old Trail Drivers Association Reunion of 1924.  This is a 2005 issue with a long article and pictures of the Reunion.

http://www.texas-ec.org/texascooppower/issues_archive/2005/November/tcp1105.pdf

Click the little blue + button at the top to magnify the page.  Use the down arrow on the side bar to scroll down to the article - which includes a picture of Minnie Caudle (as a young girl) and Banc Babb (taken in 1945)

[ANNIE]

I saw those Callie but didn't link to them.  Aren't those stories incredible!  And I believe that those three men had also written books later about their lives with the Indians.

[CallieOK]

I have reserved "The Captured" and hope to have it from the library soon.