Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C. Gwynne ~ February Book Club Online

[HaroldArnold]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

Empire of the Summer Moon  by S.C.Gwynne

February Book Club Online  

It's an AMERICAN STORY.  THE U.S. ARMY, TEXAS RANGERS - SETTLERS- ALL AGAINST THE INDIANS The year was 1871 and the final destruction of the last of the hostile tribes was just beginning after 250 years of bloody combat.  The end of the Civil War had brought many new people to the west searching for land, adventure, glory. By this time the Indians had seen the buffalo depart, they were cadging food, stealing horses and other useful artifacts or ornamental things from the white man.   Some learned to speak Spanish or English.  All loved clothing and blankets made of cotton or wool, and the  accumulation of white man's artifacts.  It was a sort of cultural pollution that could not be stopped. And then there were the white captives; particularly a white squaw who had lived with the Indians, married, had a son named Quanah who became the last great Comanche War Chief.  An epic saga!  A fascinating  book! Come join us as we discuss the integration of the Indians into a civilized world.

Map of Great Plains - shaded in red

Discussion Schedule Feb. 15 - 21  Chapters 14-18 Feb  22 - 28  Chapters 19 -22

Great Plains near Nebraska

       

   

Talking Points
Feb. 15-21 ~ Chapters 14-18

1.  WE ARE HALFWAY THROUGH THE BOOK AND HAVE NOT TALKED AT ALL ABOUT QUANAH, THE INDIAN CHIEF, CYNTHIA PARKER’S SON!
     What did you think about Quanah’s childhood?  Were you surprised at his elopement; the manner in which he stole his bride?  
     What qualities did he possess that made him a great war chief?  What tactics in battle?

2.  Were you surprised that in 1861, the start of the Civil War, there were still around 1000 Comanches roaming around the Plains, stealing horses, killing settlers?

3.  What effect did the Civil War have on the Plains Indians?

4. Explain the Indian Removal Act and its consequences.

5. What weapon did Kit Carson bring to the battles he fought and how did this weapon save his life.  

6. What was the battle which Gwynne states was one of the largest battles ever fought on the Great Plains?

7. “PEACE, AND OTHER HORRORS” -   What did Gwynne mean by this title to Chapter 15?

8. What was President Grant’s Peace Policy and was it effective?  

9. Quanah and Mackenzie, both excellent fighters and strategists, battled out on the plains.  Describe the weakneess and the strengths of both sides.

10. In what ways did the white man subdue the Indians besides killing them? What  efforts did the Comanche People make to erase the white people off their land?
 


Related Links: Interview with author, S.C. Gwynne ; Listen to C-SPAN Interview HERE ;
MAP of Texas; Historical Maps of Texas ; Tribal Map of Oklahoma ;
All about the Red River (Mississippi River) ;
The Die is Cast ;

 

Discussion Leaders:  Ella & Harold

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Harold's post:

CallieinOK  and all, I too have the Book with all those personal histories of Trail drive experience that came out of  he Old Trail Drivers Association Reunion of 1924.  I know those trail drives were going full swing 1870-1875.  I know the accounts do mention trouble with the Indians, but the Comanche did not stop the trail drivers in those years when they were certainly active.  It would seem to me a trail heard with a thousand head might be easy to stampede.  If our Author was participating here in our discussion, I would ask him why he did not discuss the Trail Driver's Comanche experience.  

[CallieOK]

Harold, did you, Ella or anyone try to contact the author to see if he would come "talk" to us?

[Babi]

 Harold, my remark was due to Gwynne's statement that in any battle
with the Comanches, the whites had to fight to the death, as surrender
was not an option. It implied that all battles ended in victory or
death, whether immediate or by torture. Yet there were occasions when
the Indians simply abandoned a battle.
  Ahh, ANNIE's second link is color-coded. Follow the yellow 'road'
to trace the Indian history. From the white view of what was important, of course.

 ELLA, I wondered, too, why the Comanches didn't eat fish. As for
wild game, I don't imagine there was a great deal available out on
those plains. Rabbits and prairire dogs, maybe

 How fortunate you were, SHEILA, to have a great-grandmother that
lived that long and that alert. I well remember the stories my
grandmother told me, but I only had one g-grandfather survive to an
age where I could meet him.  He was still strong and active, raising
goats on a small farm.

  ABERLAINE, we did study American history, but information about
particular states only came up when it influenced the national history.
The rangers were a motley lot.  In appearance, they could  hardly have
been reassuring.  Some of the names are familiar to me, though.“Bigfoot” Wallace and “Allligator” Davis are figures of the local folklore.
 It is John Coffee Hays who truly captures the imagination, tho’. A
remarkable young man, and a most appealing character.  I would dearly love to see his story ,…an accurate, true-to-life version…on film.
Properly done, it would be a classic.
 
  That is a most intriguing link, CALLIE. I wish I had more time to
peruse it. Minnie Caudle was a very pretty girl, wasn't she?  And it's
good to see Banc Babb lived to an old age.

[HaroldArnold]

Regarding why plains Indians did not fish,  There is no real mystery here.  True the plains rivers had their share of fish, but catching them was a problem.  Even with properly baited hook, it took a lots of time to catch relatively few fish.  Buffalo hunting was much more productive.  A few hours on a properly organized horseback chase would yield 10,000 pounds of  fresh meat.  Fishing would have been a thousand times less productive.

The Farming Caddo Tribes in East Texas sometimes set trout lines.  Yet even there fishing played a relatively  minor role in their Food intake.


Again on the Comanche No Surrender tradition.  I don't see a necessary strategic withdrawal from a battle as a surrender.  In fact stubborn refusal to retreat would result in de facto surrender.  As the Comanche practiced it, it was running away to fight another day.  It in fact avoided surrender.  For me in the end, even Quanah's decision to limp into the reservation still don't seem surrender.  At least not in the WW II sense,  But more on that 2 weeks later.

[Jonathan]

Harold, I like your answers to the Comanches fishing and fighting habits. Somehow I can't imagine a Comanche sitting patiently hoping for a bite on his baited line. And I'm sure a Comanche would think it dumb to surrender if he saw a way to escape. Doesn't the author tell us somewhere that he would even try to avoid a fight? I believe I've read that the long line of forts that the Feds built in the fifties, north to south, were ignored by the Comanches. They never attacked forts. Stealth, surprise, hit and run, seemed the best battle tactics for him. They are still boasting: We were the Lords of the plains. (comanchenation.com) For a hundred years....

Nancy, I believe, drew our attention to the observation in the book that the Comanche was easily spooked. That does seem surprising. Or did, until I remembered reading that a big part of a Comanche boy's training were exercises in fighting his fears. That does make him human after all. And 'Indian Brave' has taken on a new meaning for me. A lot was expected of him in a lifetime of hunting and fighting with its many dangers. Killing a mean old buffalo was the least of them but still terrifying without courage.

[Ella Gibbons]

HAROLD, being our representative of the great state of Texas, had you heard of RIP FORD before reading this book (Rest in Peace, Ford), a most remarkable fellow!  Gwynne devotes several pages to Mr. Ford (pg.165-172), and the Battle of Antelope Hill, which underscored the incompetence of the army and proved that "the Comanches can be followed, overtaken, and beaten, provided the pursuers will be laborious, vigilant, and are willling to undergo privations.

And the Texas Rangers were willing!  Sounds like a good movie to me.

 And, Harold, while I am asking questions this statement - "The Battle of Antelope Hills also brought into focus the rather thorny political question of who was better qualified to patrol the borderlands, federals or Texans."  Is this still a thorny question today?  The border is still very much in the news, isn't it?

Thanks, ANN, for that interesting information.  On page 168 Gwynne states this:

"Women (Indian) were killed along with men......Women could ride as well as the men and were extremely adept with a bow.   They were often killed as combatants (as would be true a hundred years later in the Vietnam War), and in any case were always potential combatants.   Needless to say, the Tonkawas and Shawnees and other Indians had no such compunctions about killing women.  Plains warfare was a fight to the death, always."

But Gwynne does say several times in the book that the Comanches tried to protect their women and children in a fight.

[Ella Gibbons]

CALLIE, No, I have not attempted to contact our author.  Simon and Schuster is the publisher, huge, huge company, very difficult to get through to the author.  Try if you would like!!  Good luck.

[HaroldArnold]

Regarding the line of Federal Forts that were built across Texas in the post civil war years, this was not the first line of Forts built by governmental authority to protect settlers from Indians.  A hundred years earlier the Spanish had built an even more impressive line across their northern Boarder extending from the Gulf Coast through Southern Texas, Northern Mexico, New Mexico,  Arizona and California.  The purpose of these Forts were to defend Spanish settlements, principally from the Apache , but of course after the 1750’s the Comanche were certainly involved too.  For many years from the early 1700 to the 1760’s there was one even in modern Louisiana just east of the present East Texas Border.  The presidio at San Antonio was established in 1731 and about the same time a Presido at La Bahia was built.

Each of these forts was manned by a special frontier cavalry Corp (Dragons types that road horses to battle, but mostly dismounted to fight).  They were located some 200 miles apart, each manned by from 50 to150 men recruited locally in Northern Mexico, Texas or New Mexico.  They and their horses were burdened by some 50 pounds of armor, arms, and other gear.  The armor was not metal but quilted protecting both the horse and ridrer.  They also carried a spear and were trained in tactics involving a Calvary charge with spears.  I know of no occasion when such a charge occurred.  It seems they always dismounted to fight.   They were officially called in Spanish by words when translated into English meant “Flying Corp.”

The men were poorly paid and trained and they were generally illiterate.  A high proportion of enlisted ranks were married with children.  As a fighting force their record was maybe C minus.   They won a few but sure took their share of hardships and losses.  These were the men who defended the presidio at the San Saba Mission as told in our book.

[Babi]

"Plains warfare was a fight to the death, always."

(italics mine)

I’m not really surprised, but I was angered to read that some adventurers liked to ‘tag along’ with surveying parties “exploring the land, doing some hunting, and possibly shooting an Indian”.  A nice little safari, hoping to shoot an Indian like he was a prize hunting specimen.  Couldn’t mount him on the wall at home, of course, but no doubt a scalp made an appropriate trophy.  Bah!

  The settlers and the Comanche  …”Both coveted the same land, and both wanted the other side to stop contesting it, and neither was willing to give anything meaningful in exchange.”    And, of course, the  settlers steadfastly ignored the fact that the Comanche were there first.  From the Western point of view,  no one was using the land, it was empty and  unsettled, so why shouldn’t they farm it?   The needs of the nomadic way of life were wholly foreign to them.


   

[Ella Gibbons]

Yes, BABI, but what would you suggest be done?  Should the federal goverment, such as it was at the time, prohibit any land being settled west of the Mississippi, therefore giving the land to the Plains Indians?  No settlements?  No white man dare enter?  How could it have been done anyway, where could they have gotten the force to keep out the white man? 

And, of course, we are really stretching a dream!  You cannot stop people from wanting land, farmers wanting to settle, support their families.  They came with a dream of founding cities such as they had come from, a store, a courthouse, a church, etc.

We can debate the issue forever; most of us deplore what was done to the Indians but I have no ideas as to how to do otherwise.

[Ella Gibbons]

HAROLD, can you answer my questions in my previous post #285?  It's interesting to me.

[Jonathan]

Babi says in her post: 'I was angered to read that some adventurers liked to ‘tag along’ with surveying parties “exploring the land, doing some hunting, and possibly shooting an Indian”.  A nice little safari, hoping to shoot an Indian like he was a prize hunting specimen.'

Babi, your anger is understandable and justified. What they did to each other was savage and horrifying. But I can't help feeling that these 'adventurers' were invited to come along by the surveyors as protection. Were, perhaps, even paid by the surveyors. The same is said about some of the Rangers. They did it for the fun. And in the Indian camps, our author tells us, any young buck could oraganize a raiding party for the same adventure.

[HaroldArnold]

Ella: regarding your questions in post 285 above, If my memory sis correct the Battle of Antelope hill was between Texas Ranger and the Comanche just before the Civil war began.  It seems Comanche raids on the settlements had become increasingly persistent and the Federal presence in Texas was unresponsive so Texas took matters in their own hands with a $70,.000 War Chest appropriation.  The Ranger force was commanded by Rip Ford,  who met the Comanche a village at a place known as Antelope Hill.  The ranger force was supplemented by Tonkawa scouts.  The battle was a victory for the Rangers with many Comanche dead including Comanche women who actively participated in the fighting.  The battle also saw some hand to hand combat between the Tonkawa scouts and Comanche warriors. 

Rip Ford who commanded Texas Forces went on to distinguish himself militarily during the Civil War as a Confederate officer.   I thought I remember a West Texas College named after him but apparently not as Google did not find one.  He definitely served as a post reconstruction Texas Governor. He remained a distinguished citizen throughout his lifetime. 

So far as who was better qualified to protect the Texas frontier , the State of Federal Government, obviously it was the one with the military hardware and troops and the will to fight.  During the years just before the Civil war it was the state, The federal Government was unresponsive and Texans were being killed.  Later, After the War the situation was different.  Then there was a Federal presence with the military hardware and troop, and more importantly the will to get the job done.  I might add however that the Texas Ranges were still involved in the action.

Also you speak of American Women Army fighting during our Viet Nam War 100 years later.  Is that true. Were American Women army personnel being assigned to combat units that early, as they certainly are today?

[HaroldArnold]

Jonathan, comment on your Canadian Indian experience.  Back in the 16 and 16 hundreds,  I suspect some of your early experience in the east was a bit bloody too?  Also I suspect that later in the West you handled things a bit better than in the U.S.  I know that Sitting Bull and his band after the battle with Custer on the Little Bighorn sought safety in Canada. Give just a brief Commentary comparison.

[Ella Gibbons]

HAROLD, just one more question and then I will stop this "harassment."  We, in the midwest - well, everywhere in the states actually - hear about border problems.  Drugs coming in - immigrants coming in - a huge fence being built - more money for border patrols.  

What do Texans, or you, believe is the best approach.  Just a personal opinion.  What is the best solution or is there one?

(the women in Vietnam is a quote from Gwynne on page 165 - I questioned it also)

[ANNIE]

Article about women in war.
http://www.deanza.edu/faculty/swensson/bestresearch_womensoldiers.html

And another:
http://www.tourofdutyinfo.com/Notebook/Essay3-women.htm

[JoanP]

We're back from a winter respite in sunny Florida...I've been off the computer for the past two days and am overwhelmed with the posts and the links here.  Thanks so much for those time lines too.  As soon as I get the dinner on the table I should have some time to absorb everything here.  Well, maybe not "everything" - but at least some of the fascinating information you've been posting.

Here are some pictures Ella has asked to be posted - I'd love to find some of George Catlin's work too....he did a lot of illustrations of the Comanches.

Battle of Walker’s Creek Colt Paterson Revolvers

Battle of Walker's Creek

The battle of Walker's Creek really makes you feel you are there, doesn't it?  For those who live in these areas of the country where the Comanches once roamed free - do you sense their presence?  Do you find arrow heads in the ground?  Do you run into descendants of those times on the streets?  Are you always aware that this land was so different not all that long ago?

ps...this family needs dinner - am roasting a duck this afternoon - but I just had to find this George Catlin illustration of Comanche warfare that I had seen somewhere before...look at them using their horses as shields!

[Aberlaine]

I was shocked to learn (although I shouldn't have been) that after Quanah's father was killed and his mother kidnapped, he was no longer treated with respect.  His respect came from being the son of a chief.  Once the chief was gone, so was the respect.  I was sorry to learn that Peanut died at an early age.

Cynthia Ann never adjusted to the white man's life.  She was always trying to escape, until she realized that she had been taken so far east that she'd never find her way back.  And during that time she lost her daughter.  Why can't we leave well enough alone?  Does our opinion always have to be the only one and the right one?

P.S.  The Lone Ranger was a Texas Ranger.

[Jonathan]

Harold, I'm totally absorbed in this dramatic account of the Indian/White conflict down there in Texas, in the years before and after your Civil War. I'm resolved, as soon as we get through talking about this book, to learn more on the subject as it relates to the Canadian scene. There is so much one doesn't know. I'm also resolved to get in my car and find my way to Texas to see these places we're reading about.

[Ella Gibbons]

JoanP put the pictures up, Oh, Great!  Aren't they marvelous.

I wanted the Colts up as a symbol of what technology can bring.  Yesterday and today.

Gwynne tells us that guns - Colts, later better and better guns - were the defining moment in the west.  

Gwynne has a lot of "defining moments" in this wonderful tale, but certainly we can all agree that bringing the repeating pistols into a battle defined the moment!  The Indians now "faced the prospect of being blasted from horseback by guns that never emptied."

Early to bed for me, I'm very tired, early day tomorrow.  Will be back then.

[HaroldArnold]

HAROLD, just one more question and then I will stop this "harassment."  We, in the midwest - well, everywhere in the states actually - hear about border problems.  Drugs coming in - immigrants coming in - a huge fence being built - more money for border patrols.  What do Texans, or you, believe is the best approach.  Just a personal opinion.  What is the best solution or is there one?

The truth is I am not real familiar with the details of the immigration problem that appears to be more centered in Arizona and California than in Texas.  I suppose the problem is that the Federal Government is doing a poor job of enforcing and prosecution its own federal Laws relative to immigration and that as a result States are subject to the expense of prosecution of illegal aliens charged with violation of state laws, the cost of educating illegal children in public schools, and caring for them at local hospitals, etc.  As the result of this problem, Arizona has passed a state law allowing local police who hold anyone arrested for any minor violation who appears might be alien for investigation concerning his citizenship status.  This law is subject to charges concerning its Constitutional validity, an issue that is making its way through the Federal courts at this time.

I am inclined to agree with the charge that the Federal Government is doing a poor job with enforcement of its own Federal Laws relative to immigration and protection of the borders and the consequence of its failures have created a multitude of problems for State governments, not just border States but interior states as well where immigrants settle. It may be time for serious revision of federal immigration and interstate commerce laws and regulations.    

[HaroldArnold]

Regarding George Catlin and his Indian paintings I have five 11 X 14 pictures I made from a set of prints purchased from a book store in the 1950's.  Twenty  years later the color was fading so I copied them with my Nixon using Black & White film.  From the negatives I made 11 X 14 inch prints that I changed the black prints to sepia before hand coloring them with transparent oil colors.  Today they are framed and hanging on my bedroom walls.  There are several buffalo hunt scenes, one of a Comanche roping a wild horse and two of Indian dances.  

George Catlin made a visit to Texas in the early 1840.  His story is included in his North American Indians book, Vol 2 published in 1973 by Dover.  He accompanied a U.S. Calvary regiment on a mission through Indian Territory to return a Comanche woman who had been liberated by the army from another tribe.  They seem to have had no hesitation in violating the northern border of the Republic of Texas.  They were successful in delivering the woman to her tribe and continued negotiations on a possible Comanche peace treaty, a negotiation that went no where.  On the return the Regiment was struck with a disease styled Bilious Fever.  Whatever that was it was most deadly and something like 1/3 of the men died including its commanding officer.   Catlin was late in contracting the disease and was able to complete the last several days of the return Journey to Fort Smith Arkansas where he recovered in the Army post sickbay.

[CallieOK]

Joan, thank you for the pictures of the marvelous paintings.  They really bring the story to life, don't they?

I am in awe of the ability to cling to the side of a horse at full gallop while shooting arrows or a gun.
I could barely stay on a horse if I held on the the saddle horn and it was standing still!!! 

[Ella Gibbons]

NANCY, thanks for your post.  A sad story about Quanah's mother and little sister wasn't it?  But I think as Quanah grew up, he did become a great war chief; with his personality he was able to recruit warriors.  We'll learn more about his exploits and his life in the next chapters.

JONATHAN!  Let's plan a group trip to Texas to explore these sites.  We can fly into Amarillo, maybe, hire a driver and a van, go to Lubbock, follow the Red River down, plan our trip for next fall.  

HAROLD, can you find us a knowledgeable driver for five days - we will all divide up the costs - preferably someone from the Indian Museum - an Indian?  

We can even see if those SeniorLearn folks from over east want to join us?  I'm good for a few hours a day, but tire easily when walking, so I'll sit in the van and listen to the rest of you and look out the window at the lovely country.

Callie, I can't even get up on a horse, they frighten me. I love watching them though, they are magnificent animals.  We used to go a local racetrack where they had a fine restaurant and we would bet the favorites, make enough money to pay for our meal and parking.  Fun in those days!  I love to watch racehorses!  They are beautiful!

[Babi]

 So true, ELLA, and actually that's pretty much what happened. On the
occasions when the govenment did attempt to discourage or stop
settlers from going any further West, it didn't work at all. Land
hungry settlers saw all that supposedly empty land and just kept
going.

 JONATHAN, I do hope it's more a case of those young men looking for
adventure and glory, rather than 'fun'. If not, I imagine one trip
out into the plains, traveling as the Rangers did, would have ended
any notions of it being fun.
  There were men hired by the surveyers for protection. The 'big game'
hunters seemed to be going for the thrill, but I don't doubt the extra
guns were welcome.

 Speaking as a Texan, ELLA, I would have to say that opinions as to
how to deal with the illegal immigrant problem on the border are
divided. There is little agreement as to what exactly should be done
and no easy solution to the problem. I don't recall every seeing
a landscape like that one in the area. That outcropping of rock just
doesn't fit. I could be wrong.
  JOANP, that painting of the Battle of Walker's Creek is beautiful,
but rather fanciful. The second painting is also beautiful, and appears more realistic.

 A fine example of Gwynne’ s irony:   “Every so often  troops would be sent forth with the glorious task of breaking Comanche power forever.  Every so often  they would actually find Comanches and kill a significant number of them.”
  Now we have a really good example of a failure to communicate.  After years of successful  action against the Comanche by Hays  Rangers,  the government and the Army still hadn’t learned anything  from them.  As soon as Hays moved on and the Rangers were disbanded, the Army moved in with the same wholly useless tactics they had  gotten them killed before.

[HaroldArnold]

I want to say something about a noted Ranger Captain, John Coffee Hays.  In the early 1840’s he figured in several noted skirmishes with Comanche during which he seemed to learn from the Comanche how to fight them.  In June 1844 he became Captain of a Ranger company responding to a Comanche intrusion west of Austin, northwest of San Antonio.  His men had one new advantage.  They were armed with an early 5 shot repeating revolver.   It was the first early version of the Colt revolver.  To reload it required inserting a new cartage an operation that was possible on horseback, 

 In 1844Hay’s ranger company armed with these pistols met a Pentanka war party on Waller Creek .  Hays directed the operation correctly with his men mounted in a circle as the Indians charged around them.  The repeating fire power cut the Comanche down while Range causalities were few since the Comanche did not get close enough to use their spears and arrows effectively.  The Comanche seeing the effectiveness of the Range firepower hastily made one of their strategic withdrawals.  This battle of Plum Creed was a significant Texan victory.  It was an interesting herald of things to come, but the reality was that the Comanche problem would be around for another 3 decades.

John Coffee Hays did not stay long in Texas.  In1849 he came down with a case of the Gold Fever and left to seek his fortune in the California Gold fields.  I have no information of his success or failure there, though I am sure if any of you are interested Google is available to find the answer.  Later the Texas Legislature honored him by naming a county after him.  This is Hays County on I-35 between Austin and San Antonio.  Today it is a thriving University town with a population  of over 50,000. 

[HaroldArnold]

Regarding the organizing of a possible trip to Texas let me say that 5 years back we discussed a possible Trip lasting several days centered in San Antonio with a side Trip to Austin.  I would have conducted tours of the River Walk, the  Institute of Texan Cultures, and the San Antonio Missions National Historical Park.  It would have been in November and the day trip to Austin would have been to the Texas Book Festival that is held annually inside the Texas Capital .  This is a huge building after the pattern  of the U.S. Capital whose dome with the Goddess  Texana atop stands higher then the US capital.

I tried to put together a trip package but the uncertainty of the numbers who show up, coupled with the need for arranging Hotel accommodations and bus transportation for a firm number of attends made the project impossible for me to organize.  While I will, subject to health and previous committeemen, welcome any of you who might in the future be in San Antonio with a Tour of the local sites, I must decline the organizing of any tour involving Hotels and or bus transportation.  

[Frybabe]

Harold, I bought Mom the Catlin volumes you mentioned years ago. I don't recall that she read them,  but Dad did. He found them quite interesting. I just reaquired the volumes last year when when moved Mom to her present location. I have not yet read them, but am looking forward to it in the future.

[Ella Gibbons]

"After years of successful  action against the Comanche by Hays  Rangers,  the government and the Army still hadn’t learned anything  from them.  As soon as Hays moved on and the Rangers were disbanded, the Army moved in with the same wholly useless tactics they had  gotten them killed before." - BABI

Gwynne tells us that "Comanche raids in 1864, to take just one year, were the worst in history; 1871 and 1872 were bad years, too."

As much as everyone wanted peace, there seemed to be no way.

But I love the way Gwynne described the world of the Plains Indians:

 It was a world "of pure magic, of beaver ceremonies and eagle dances, of spirits that inhabited springs, trees, rocks, turtles, and crows; a place where people danced all night and sang bear medicine songs, where wolf medicine made a person invulnerable to bullets, dream visions dictated tribal policy, and ghosts were alive in the wind."
 
 
 
 

[Jonathan]

Babi, I think you're right. Those magnificent warriors in the pictures supplied by Joan, are certainly engaged in something more than just fun. They are out for glory, and, no doubt, anticipating the victory dance.

What is it about that part of the country, that makes it so attractive to people looking for a new home? Now they are illegal immigrants. During the Comanche Empire days the newcomers were looked on as invaders. And before that the Comanches pushed other tribes out of the way before enjoying the kingdom. Did they all think of it as Manifest Destiny?

Texas, here we come. As innocent tourists. Unarmed. Let's hope for a nice welcome, Ella.

[bookad]

hi there

its Deb lurking in the shadows since I needed to return my book to the library

I am wondering ....in Brownsville, there is a Coffeeport Rd, and if that is linked to Hays as his middle name was Coffee!!!!

Victoria, Texas is mentioned I believe in the book, and Glenn and I have travelled thru that region and San Antonio vicinity as well....I have amazing pictures in my mind from reading this book and being in this country area...I am determined to visit the other areas mentioned and must reread the book when we get home to determine a route line...Texas is supposed to have so many variations of climate and landscape...of course it is so big...I wonder why in the constitution the clause to 'have the ability to divide it in up to 5 states'...that information came from Texas by  Michener...and am hoping that is correct

[HaroldArnold]

The right of Texas to divide itself in to five separate states is not in any constitution.  It is in several of the Congressional Annexation Bills that brought Texas into the union.  As I said before their does not appear to be any urge at all to do it and I sure any attempt to do so would be meant with constitutional and other legal challenge. 

[HaroldArnold]

Frybabe:  True just before the Civil War began there was a significant Texas victory/Comanche defeat.  When the War began all the Ranges joined the Confederate army.  I think there were Texas Ranger units that participated as such in several of the major Civil War  battles.  This left the Texas Frontier defenseless against the Comanche.  It was not a happy time ifor Texas. 

[Babi]

 JONATHAN, I personally think 'manifest destiny' was a ploy of the
government and politicians, to justify their intention to 'take it all'.
The Comanche moved in to follow the buffalo. The settlers wanted land.
Todays illegal immigrant are looking a better life and income than they
have at home...which is basically what the early immigrants were looking for. It's simply that the native Indians didn't have immigration laws or the power to enforce them.

  We did have a really bad habit of giving away what wasn’t ours, didn’t we?  The words of Sanaco of the Penatekas  summed it up perfectly. “You come into our country and select a small patch of ground, around which you draw a line, and tell us the President will make us a present of  this to live on, when everybody knows that the whole of this entire country, from the Red River to the Colorado, is ours and always has been since time immemorial.”

  Side note: I was startled by the words,  “They crossed rivers in the tracks of the buffalo, to avoid quicksand.”    Somehow I never associated quicksand with the Plains rivers.   I suppose I assumed that quicksand could not form there; why, I don't know.

[Ella Gibbons]

NEW QUESTIONS IN THE HEADING, AND.....

THE FIRST ONE HAS TO DO WITH LOVE!!!   DID YOU MISS IT???

QUANAH WAS IN LOVE, SHE WAS IN LOVE, BUT HER FATHER WAS OPPOSED!

TOO BAD WE DIDN'T DISCUSS THIS ON VALENTINE'S DAY - THE PERFECT STORY!!!  

LET'S DISCUSS THE QUESTIONS IN THE HEADING!!!  CHAPTERS 14 THROUGH 18, OUR THIRD WEEK!

[ANNIE]

Speaking of Quanah and his love for Weckeah,  I was quite amazed at the 21 braves and Quanah traveling to the San Marcos area and remaining there for over a year as they stole horses to offer to Weckeah's father.  And the visits of the men's wives and sweethearts.  Now finally her father arrives and decides he would be beaten by Quanah's war party so he settles his gripes with Quanah's group.  What a solution! And a peaceful one too!
I had to laugh at the stories told by the elders to the children about Piamempita--The Big Cannibal Owl who ate naughty children.  Sometimes we all need a Big Cannibal Owl story for out children to fear!

Ella, I know this post probably doesn't fit in here but I wrote it on Valentine's Day and forgot to hit the post button until now.  I am reading the book, honestly.  I just got a little sentimental for a few minutes after consuming all those chocolates that Ralph always gives me and remembered that I did live in Texas at one time.
We lived  there while my husband served in the Air Force,( San Antonio and Austin), for three years.  It took me almost a year to recover from the home sickness that I felt after leaving wonderful friends and neighbors that we had gotten to know so well. Wonderful generous folks who were so kind to us.
And the weather will not to be forgotten. Northers' that forced one to remove just hung laundry from the line immediately, sleeping with sand in our bed as no matter what we did to prevent it, the dust and sand sifted through all fabric coverings.   Ice storms in January, picnicing in 75 degree weather in February,  the rains of September and Christmas, with open windows to let in warm breezes. Sounds as though I continue to miss it, doesn't it?
  
I still have relatives living in Texas and my great aunt (my grandfather's sister) died in the Galveston tidal wave of 1909, along with her 6 children and husband.  While searching for gravesites in and around Galveston for the family genealogy,  I found an interesting tidbit concerning the Galveston Old Catholic Cemetery.
Buried there is Galveston's first practicing physician, Dr Nicholas Labadie who treated Texan and Mexican wounded at San Jacinto and served as interpreter for surrender of General Santa Anna.  This is of no value here except that we are reading about these battles in this book and voila! a connection pops up out of nowhere!

JoanP,
Your pictures are beautiful.
Harold,
I truly enjoyed your story of the pictures that you have hanging in your home!
 

[Ella Gibbons]

JONATHAN - Before we all cast a stone south, hear this:

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/national_world/stories/2011/02/15/quiet-border-getting-noisy.html

AN NOW BACK TO OUR REGULARLY SCHEDLED PROGRAM:

QUANAH, BIG CHIEF, BIG INDIAN CHIEF

[ANNIE]

Ella,
Aware of the border that we never consider, I have seen several articles plus TV stories about Canada and its unprotected areas of the border.  Its a real problem that wasn't worrying anyone for a long time.
I did comment on Quanah earlier but you must have missed it!  Hahaha!

[JoanP]

Annie, don't ever apologize for posting descriptions such as you did...of life on the Plains.  I could sense the wind, the dust, the sand from your memories.  It occurred to me when reading of the attempts to turn these Plains Indians into farmers - that perhaps the land was not condusive to farming.  

I'm going to confess that I never thought of Texas at war with the Indians during the Civil War - and then I read the coming chapters and see that the troops forgot about the Plains too at this time, allowing the Comanches free rein over Comancheria...
I don't think I ever studied Texas and Oklahoma in a history class.  Glad to be catching up now!


In the opening pages of this book, I noted that the morning of Oct.3, 1871 marked the beginning of the end of the Indian Wars - that's when the order went out to the Fourth Cavalry and the Eleventh Infantry to kill all Comanches - the final solution.
We're getting nearer to that date now at the close of the Civil War.

There's so much here - in the book and in your posts!  Ella, I promise to get to the grown up Quanah, Quanah BIG ChIEF,  but first would like to put up some of these scribbled notes by my computer...

[JoanP]

Two more things noted in previous chapters - that got me thinking...

1. "When Comanches robbed houses they invariably took all the books they could find."  Dd that strike you at all?  What did you think when you read that?

2.  I loved the photos in the center of the book.  I had studied the photo of Cynthia Parker, but didn't pay particular notice of the fact that she is breast feeding little Prairie Flower in the photograph.  It wasn't until I read that this was unheard of at the time - for a white woman's breast to be exposed in a photograph.  The photographer really regarded Cynthia Ann as a savage.  Who knows, maybe she refused to be photographed otherwise.  I can remember those old National Geographics in the 70's...the boys always wanted to study them as the native women were often portrayed "topless."    Do they still do that?  I just asked my husband, who gets the magazine - and he said, "I don't know."  What does that say about him?

 That poor miserable woman.  You could feel her desperate wish to escape back to her old life as she knew it.  She doesn't even know that Quanah is still alive.  I thought it was funny that a neighbor of the Parkers' observed that Cynthia Ann was "stout" - at 140 lbs.  She was tall for a woman, wasn't she?  In my book, 140 lbs is just fine on a woman who is 5'7".

Gwynne described another photo of her - a tintype, the first picture taken of her when she was retaken.
This was taken in Austen - described in the book:
"The image shows a woman who has clearly been gussied up, though she looks deeply uncomfortable in her new clothes.  Her hair is pulled back in what looks like some sort of net.  She wears a patterned cotton blouse and a striped skirt  and what looks like a woolen robe clasped at the neck.  Her unusally large and work-scarred hands are crossed on her lap.
 Her gaze is direct, supplicating and utterly miserable."

I just had to search for that photograph and thought you might like to see it too -