Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C. Gwynne ~ February Book Club Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

Empire of the Summer Moon  by S.C.Gwynne

February Book Club Online  

It's an AMERICAN STORY.  THE U.S. ARMY, TEXAS RANGERS - SETTLERS- ALL AGAINST THE INDIANS The year was 1871 and the final destruction of the last of the hostile tribes was just beginning after 250 years of bloody combat.  The end of the Civil War had brought many new people to the west searching for land, adventure, glory. By this time the Indians had seen the buffalo depart, they were cadging food, stealing horses and other useful artifacts or ornamental things from the white man.   Some learned to speak Spanish or English.  All loved clothing and blankets made of cotton or wool, and the  accumulation of white man's artifacts.  It was a sort of cultural pollution that could not be stopped. And then there were the white captives; particularly a white squaw who had lived with the Indians, married, had a son named Quanah who became the last great Comanche War Chief.  An epic saga!  A fascinating  book! Come join us as we discuss the integration of the Indians into a civilized world.

Map of Great Plains - shaded in red

Discussion Schedule Feb. 15 - 21  Chapters 14-18 Feb  22 - 28  Chapters 19 -22

Great Plains near Nebraska

         

   

Talking Points
Feb. 15-21 ~ Chapters 14-18

1.  WE ARE HALFWAY THROUGH THE BOOK AND HAVE NOT TALKED AT ALL ABOUT QUANAH, THE INDIAN CHIEF, CYNTHIA PARKER’S SON!
     What did you think about Quanah’s childhood?  Were you surprised at his elopement; the manner in which he stole his bride? 
     What qualities did he possess that made him a great war chief?  What tactics in battle?

2.  Were you surprised that in 1861, the start of the Civil War, there were still around 1000 Comanches roaming around the Plains, stealing horses, killing settlers?

3.  What effect did the Civil War have on the Plains Indians?

4. Explain the Indian Removal Act and its consequences.

5. What weapon did Kit Carson bring to the battles he fought and how did this weapon save his life. 

6. What was the battle which Gwynne states was one of the largest battles ever fought on the Great Plains?

7. “PEACE, AND OTHER HORRORS” -   What did Gwynne mean by this title to Chapter 15?

8. What was President Grant’s Peace Policy and was it effective? 

9. Quanah and Mackenzie, both excellent fighters and strategists, battled out on the plains.  Describe the weakneess and the strengths of both sides.

10. In what ways did the white man subdue the Indians besides killing them? What  efforts did the Comanche People make to erase the white people off their land?
 


Related Links: Interview with author, S.C. Gwynne ; Listen to C-SPAN Interview HERE ;
MAP of Texas; Historical Maps of Texas ; Tribal Map of Oklahoma ;
All about the Red River (Mississippi River) ;
The Die is Cast ;

 

Discussion Leaders:  Ella & Harold

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[Jonathan]

Ella, that's an interesting story in The Columbus Dispatch this morning. We've been so proud of our mutual border for so many years. The longest, undefended border in the world, etc. Something has to be done about the drug-running of course. Doesn't it remind us of the booze smuggling of the Prohibition years. Several giant Canadian fortunes were made in the whiskey trade. I don't know if it's still there, but for years an old scow loaded with booze was hung up on the rocks in the Niagara river, just above the falls. Me and my buddies used to sit on the bank and wonder how we could get at it. The churning waters at the foot of the falls were awash with the bodies of the fools who had tried it.

The border problems today are of mutual concern. Since 9/11 authorities in both countries have cooperated in matters of security. Terrorism affects us all. We'll lick the problem. Refugees and assylum seekers will always be with us. Let's be charitable.

[HaroldArnold]

Joan “When Comanche robbed houses they invariably took all the books they could find.”  Did that statement appear in the Book?.  I sure let that one slip by unnoticed.  In 1689 when the Spanish first found the French Fort St Louis several months after the final assault, they found the remains of bodies, and evidence of systematic looting of cloth and metal items and French books decaying where they fell.  What did the Comanche use them far --- Maybe fire starters.

Regarding the picture of Cynthia Ann.  It is an unusually good picture for an old tintype.  Her features sort of reminded me of my late aunt Alberta.  Also her face and large muscular hands appear quite unscarred, but they were large an muscular as they should have been considering her long tenure as a Comanche housewife.  The lack of face and hand scars might suggest it was not Cynthia Ann except the face and hands  do appear the same person as the picture of Cynthia Ann with her daughter, Prairie Flower that appears with the pictures at the end of my Digital Book.

[HaroldArnold]

Babi:  Regarding “Manifest Destiny” ---.  Of course, It was the ploy du jour of 19th century politicians , quite similar to ones of today coming out from contemporary State of the Union speeches, Inaugural addresses, and most every political speech from lesser occasions. 

Adooannie;  The big Galveston hurricane induced tidal flood came in 1900, not 1909.That was the worst natural disaster in U.S. history.  Half the population of Galveston was killed.   Was that the storm that killed your relative or was their some less well known flooding again  in 1909?   I have an Interesting 1908 picture made by Grandfather of the then brand new Sea wall   This Seawall has protected the City since then from tidal waves like the one in 1900 that killed so many of its people. 

Jonathan, I’m sorry to hear of friction on our Northern Border too.  Previously my only experience crossing there was in the 80’s when I Visited St Andrews New Brunswick to attend a professional meeting.   I flew to Bangor Maine and drove a rented car from Bangor to St Andrew.  I never had any trouble with Canadian customs inspections but in late Sept 1988 I had a lady passenger on the return trip from another attendant company.  Alas the U.S. Customs found the Cuban Cigars she had purchased in Canada in her luggage - definitely a no, no.  It came out alright., though the incident was definitely an embarrassment for her, we were allowed to pass through, but of course, without the Cuban Cigars. 

[CallieOK]

Re:  The Comanches stealing books:

Page 175:   "According to Goodnight, Comanche shields, made of two layers of the toughest rawhide from the neck of a buffalo and hardened in fire, were almost invulnerable to bullets when stuffed with paper.  When Comanches robbed houses, they invariably took all the books they could find."

Shame on Cynthia Ann's family for allowing her to be stared at and paraded in front of people like a side-show character!

What a poignant scene on Page 188 when Coho Smith spoke to her in Comanche and she finally had someone to talk to who would comprehend (I just deleted the word "understand"!!) what she said.

And such a sad statement on Page 189:  "Her tragedy was that (a woman who knew what she wanted and how to get it) was utterly helpless to change the destiny that her family, with the best of intentions, arranged for her."

[JeanClark]

Question? It was noted that Nacona took no other wives but later on it was written that one of his indian wives took care of quanah for a time after his mother left. She died and he was left without adult support. Was this wife acquired after Cynthia was returned to the white culture or did he actually have more wives as iwas the custom?

[JoanP]

haha, Callie, you answered my question about Comanches stealing books!  I was thinking they were actually trying to learn English - but no, they were stuffing shields in order to better protect themselves.  That is funny!

Jean, I think I read that Peta Nocona had one other wife besides Cynthia Ann- a full Comanche - with whom he had several other sons. 

[ANNIE]

Here's the 1909 tidal waves of Texas:
1909  JUN 25  LOWER
         -30  COAST
1909  JUL 13  VELASCO    3          41     Half of Velasco destroyed. Galves-
          22                               ton had 10' tides. Bay City damaged
                                           Pressure 958 mb. Tide 9.0' at
                                           Velasco.
1909  AUG 20  LOWER      2                 Major in Mexico over 1500 killed.
         -28  COAST                        Parts of Padre Island washed over
                                           by storm surge.

And here's the article about my great aunt and family.

http://trees.ancestry.com/tree/654013/person/-1988673720/media/2

[Frybabe]

I almost forgot to go watch NCIS because I was looking at pix and reading about the Llano Estacado and Caprock.

I think this pix is marvelous: http://gordondarrow.com/gallery/graphicart/llanoestacado.htm

Likewise these pix accompanying a blurb about the Sibley Nature Center at Midland, TX. Click the pix to enlarge.
http://www.sibleynaturecenter.org/photoessays/canyonlandtour/index.html

[ANNIE]

JoanP,
We used to say that the sun touched the earth every time it set.  Beautiful state!

[maryz]

And just wait until you get to the Palo Duro Canyon...

http://www.palodurocanyon.com/

[Frybabe]

Oh thank you Mary, I was looking for the link to the Palo Duro Canyon that I previously saw, but couldn't find it again. Yours is even better. It even has a little more about Mackenzie's operation there.  And, wasn't there something about Charlie Goodnight earlier in our book? Isn't that rock formation out of this world?

I am in the process of checking out if Clovis, NM is in the Llano. And, I want to learn more about the prehistoric fossils found in the area. Strange creatures.

[Frybabe]

Here is a list of Texas Natural Resources which includes the Llano Estacado as well as other Texas sites. I am excited because at least four of these links are PowerPoint presentations. That is one of the programs I just finished learning to use. For all the bird lovers there are links to birding info. http://www.llanoestacado.org/links.htm

[Babi]

The Texas plains were much better suited to ranching, provided
you had water on the property. Not surrising, considering that they
sustained those huge buffalo herds. Beef and oil, the mainstays of
Texas prosperity.
  Thanks, FRYBABE AND MARYZ, for those beautiful pictures.

 Quanah's childhood?  Finally, more than half way through the book, we have arrived at the subject of the title.  I was astonished to learn that Comanche boys had no ‘chores’ to do.   Of course, I learned later that they began herding horses at a very young age.  Apparently that was not considered a chore.  Still, the description of their carefree life was certainly attractive.
    And Lo and Behold!  Comanche children also had their bogeyman, the Big Cannibal Owl, who came at night to eat naughty children.  Children were much loved and seldom punished.  It becomes easier to see why 9-yr. old Cynthia Ann adapted so thoroughly be adopted into  Indian life.
   (In passing, I was surprised to hear of a bird called a ‘dirt dauber’.  The only dirt daubers I know of are wasps.  I couldn’t find any birds of that name on-line, either.)

[Ella Gibbons]

Beautiful, wondrous pictures.  THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR FINDING THEM![/b]

What photography -  those pics of the Sibleynature center that Frybabe put on are the most beautiful colors - you must enlarge them and marvel!

This is an education into the State of Texas as well as the history of the Comanches, but weren't you all surprised to find a love story in the middle of the book?  And why did Quanah's father-in-law object to  him?  How could he?  Could you find a better specimen, even though he was poor, and had a mixture of white blood! 

But to get to the UNCIVIL WARS AS Chapter 14 is called.  It's very interesting the effect our great civil war had on the Plains Indians.

Civil Wars, gosh, what a topic that is at the moment, with the Middle East in an uproar!

But we must stick to our Plains Indians, our Comanches.  How could they have obtained freedom from the white man's persecution?  What was this Indian Removal Act our book talks about?

Were you aware that some of the Indians tribes had slaves?

And that in Minnesota the Sioux Indians killed 800 white settlers  - and that prior to 9/11 it was "highest civilian wartime toll in U.S. history?

That's just for starters in this chapter.  What struck you as fascinating facts?

[JoanP]

Thanks all for the pictures...and the links.  So much to read - it makes the place that much more real as we read about it.

"Finally, more than half way through the book, we have arrived at the subject of the title."Babi

-

Babi - glad you brought up the title - Empire of the Summer Moon.  I've been thinking about its meaning since we started.  Do you think Gwynne will use those words in the book before we finish?  What do you think he meant by this?  The Empire is the Comanche lands, right?  Comancheria.  But summer moon?  I was just reading about how the Comanches roamed the Plains freely during the summer, but in winter, they would come in to the camps if not the reservations.  Your thoughts?

Ella - we were posting together...will be back after "gym class"  to consider the Indian Removal Act.  I'm sure Callie will have some input on this too.

[CallieOK]

Joan, you're beginning to know me tooooo well!  

Gwynne slips in a reference to the title now and then - but I don't remember seeing the exact words.

No time for research right now.   However, I'll be "the adult presence" for two teenage grandchildren over a long weekend and will be looking for things to keep me busy in between taxi service duties.   

[Frybabe]

I remember reading in one of the chapters that the Comanche often went on raiding forays on moonlit nights and that the settlers learned to fear moonlit nights because this.

[Jonathan]

You're right, Frybabe. In Chapter 11 we read:

'...most of Nocona's (Quanah's father) raids came at night, by the light of what already widely referred to in Texas as a Comanche moon....People on moonlit nights were in perfect dread...the beautiful nights of the full moon, instead of being a source of pleasure, were on the contrary, to be dreaded as the worst of evils. Whole families and settlements were wiped out...ceased to exist, leaving as monuments smoking, burned-out cabins,  and bodies mutilated beyond recognition. The raiders stole cattle and horses....Moving by night, they almost impossible to apprehend.'page 154

I watched The Searchers last night. A marvellous film, especially for someone reading this book. I believe it inspired the author, gave him a main theme.

[Jonathan]

Yes, two hundred pages into the book, we finally get to meet our hero. What a description. We are told:

'The most dramatic story of Quanah's early life involves his marriage.'

It's dramatic alright, but nothing like what he had already done. We are told in the previous pages, (200-2):

His first raid was a foray with thirty warriors from a camp in SW Kansas...through Oklahoma, all the way to San Antonio...They indulged themselves in what, for the Comanches, was routine mischief.

Quanah's second raid was more interesting. This time he rode out with sixty warriors from their camp in W Oklahoma. They swept west and south into New Mexico

At twenty, Quanah took part in an extended expedition into Mexico with nine warriors under the command of the Kiowa chief Tohausan, famous from the battle of Adobe Walls

Also in 1868 he took part in some of the Comanche raids into the Texas hill country, raids that history records as extremely , vengefully violent.

There's more. He comes out of it all a chief in his own right. Is it any wonder that Wechea wanted him, and not that boy with the rich father?

[Ella Gibbons]

JOANP, I do want to say THANK YOU for finidng and posting that picture of Cynthia Ann Parker, there she is all dolled up by the white folks, while inside her head and heart she is longing to escape.  

What picture of Cynthia do you all of you prefer - the one in the book or the one JOANP just posted?  Why?

The title of the book?  (page 110):

"Their world was thus suspended in what seemed to be perfect equilibrium, a balance of earth and wind and sun and sky that would endure forever.  An empire under the bright summer moon."

Reminds me of what ANN said about Texas and her love of the weather, the sun and sky.

And it seems that the Indian raids only worsened, JONATHAN,  during the years of the Civil War as most of militia, the rangers, the young men and soldiers went to war over east and there was no leash on the Indians.  It is awesome, terrible to read of these raids, the Indians killing each other, raids on the agrarian tribes:

"By late 1863 it had become clear to most of the free-ranging horse tribes on the southern plains that there were no soldiers to stop them.......Huge stretches of land that had been settled as far back as the 1850's became completely depopulated.  Comanche attacks virgually shut down the Santa Fe Trail."

And into all of this violence steps Kit Carson, one of the most storied men in American history.  Remember him when you were a kid?

[Ella Gibbons]

Right on, JONATHAN!  (We were posting together and you got that right!)

[Jonathan]

Many thanks for the pictures of the Llano Estacado. And the Palo Duro Canyon. Magnificent. The Canyon, we are told, was formed by water erosion from the Prairie Dog Town Fork of the Red River. I had read about prairie-dog towns, but could never picture them until I read about them at the beginning of the book, page 9:

...common in the Texas Panhandle and extremely dangerous to horses and mules. Think of enormous anthills populated by oversized rodents, stretching for miles.

Wow!

[Jonathan]

Ella: 'What picture of Cynthia do you all of you prefer - the one in the book or the one JOANP just posted?  Why?'

There's a third picture. Also in the book, which I find really admirable. Cynthia Ann in the frame, and her imposing son Quanah proudly showing her off.

[HaroldArnold]

Regarding CallieinOK’s comment on Comanche shields: that description essentially agrees with several accounts given by early writers who lived with plains tribes including George Catlin.  There might have been a third layer.  Also the skin use for shields would have been from an old thick skinned bull and the layers were glued together using a glue made from the core of the hoof of a buffalo.  It is said that such a shield would stop an arrow coming straight on and even deflect a musket ball coming at an angle.  I suppose a shield could be fabricated using books placed close together sewed between two skin of fabric covers, but I doubt they would have been as protective as the traditional  rawhide skin shield.
 
Regarding Nacona’s wives mentioned by Jean Clark I might add that there were 2 principal reasons for the multiplicity of wives among plains Indian tribes,  First there were always more women than men at any time because of battle causalities killing off men. And second the household work load required more than one person (four of five were common).  The Early writers often mention the inequity where the younger women were prone to leave the heavy drudgery to the older ones.    I suspect there were five or six women attached to Nacona’s household; a documented record showing how their duties were assigned has not survived.  Looking at the two pictures of Cynthia Ann that are available to us, aside from her rather muscular body particularly her large hands there is no real indication of a lifetime of hard physical labor.  Her face may show evidence  psychological trama.

And ADDOANNE that 1909 tidal wave is an interesting revelation.   The 1909 hurricane (Aug 20 -28,1909 seems to have come up the Texas coast from the south.  It seems to have been particularly strong as it passed the long 200 mile long Padre Island between Brownsville and Corpus Christi.  At that time the Galveston Seawall was complete and I did not see any internet record of a tidal inundation of the city as had occurred 9 years earlier.

I must break now and will not be back until late the evening.  Please continue adding your excellent thoughts and comments about your views and interpretations of this excellent book

[HaroldArnold]

If you all have three pictures of Cynthia Ann, you have one more than I have.  I do not have the hard copy book.  My digital copy has some 6 or 7 pictures at the end mostly of Quanah, only one of Cynthia Ann.  I have of course also seen the picture of her posted 2 days ago.  That is the larger framed tintype.  If there are more perhaps a copy could the posted?

[Frybabe]

There is only one picture of Cynthia Ann in my book as well, and it is a hardcopy.

[BarbStAubrey]

I do not have the book you are discussing however, I thought  y'all may be interested in reading Mrs. Birdsong's  understanding of how her grandmother was captured and the different story the Comanche have of events as compared to the army - her recollection of events was agreed to by Horace P. Jones who was an interpreter at Fort Sill in 1896 and who was interviewed by the author of this article written in 1934 in the Chronicles of Oklahoma.

Cynthia Ann Parker starved herself to death and in this article is her gravestone and a photo of the ranch house belonging to Quanah.

And here is a wonderful link to the Parker Family Annual Reunion that also features a link to Empire of the Summer Moon - and so it appears the family must approve of this book. But notice the headshot of Cynthia Ann the family chose for the banner.

[CallieOK]

In 1957, the bodies of Quanah, Cynthia Ann and Prairie Flower were moved to the Chief's Knoll in the Fort Sill cemetery, Lawton, Oklahoma.  (This came from a link in findagrave.com - but I can't get it to post as a link)

Barb, the link to The Parker Family Reunion is really interesting.   By clicking "more" in the June, 2011 notice, you'll see that this year's Reunion has been moved to Quanah, Texas.

[maryz]

There are two pictures in the book showing the picture of Cynthia Ann nursing the baby.  One is of the photo itself.  The other one is a picture of Quanah in later life with that photograph on the wall behind him. 

[Babi]

 From what I recall of the shields, HAROLD, the paper was placed
between the buffalo hide in the shield. It added to the strength of
the shield. I don't I've ever heard of fabric shields.  
 You're so right about the need for more women to handle the workload. One of the reason the Comanches sought adult women captives was to work more buffalo hides for trade.

BARB, that article was most interesting.  I raised my eyebrow at the
quote by Victor Rose,  attributed to Cynthia Parker: "I am happily wedded. I love my husband, who is good and kind, and my little ones, too, are his, and I cannot forsake them." That sounds very much
to me like something Rose would have liked her to say, but not at all
the way Parker would have spoken....if she spoke at all.

I can believe that the "village" captured by the Texas Rangers was not a regular Comanche village, but a hunting camp, occupied by women and Mexican slaves who were getting a meat supply. That fits in
perfectly with the description we have of a group of women, children and Mexicans packing up meat for transport.
  The reports of the ‘battle’ in which Pita Nocona died were grossly exaggerated.   Even Ross, who led this skirmish, declared the “great Comanche confederacy was forever broken.”   Either he was painting a glowing picture to gain votes, or he fell into the old mistake of thinking that the ‘war chief’ he killed was ‘the’  non-existent head war chief of all the Comanche.
 

[HaroldArnold]

Thank you Barbara for your post and the link to the Chronological of Oklahoma Paper on Cynthia Ann Parker.    I did a quick read and it appears to differ from some of the traditional versions of the story.  I will read it later with more detail and I urge others to do so also.   

[Ella Gibbons]

Hi BARBARA!  THANKS FOR YOUR POST!  That article by Jones in the CHRONICLES OF OKLAHOMA is referenced in our book (see Notes on pg. 334).  So our author has done his research, I think!  But there are details in that article that are a bit different in our book, I didn't catch all of them (BABI quoted one)  but Cynthia Parker's young daughter died of pneumonia, rather than "pining away" - but then who knows.

Cynthia did starve herself to death, according to our author.

An interesting note about the picture of Cynthia breast-feeding her baby in our book.  I thought it odd that such a picture would have been taken at the time and read more closely: (pg.190)

"There is probably no precedent for this sort of photography on the Texas frontier in 1862.  White women were not photographed with their breasts exposed.  And even if a photographer had taken such a photo, no newspaper would have published it.......This one was different.  It became the picture of Cynthia Ann that generations of schoolchildren knew; it is still in wide circulation.  The only explanation is that because Cynthia Ann was seen, and treated, as a savage, even though she was as white as any Scots-Irish settler in the south.  The double standard is similar to the one National Geographic Magazine famously applied in the mid-twentieth century to photographs of naked African women."

THANKS, MARZ, for bringing to our attention that picture on the wall behind Quanah's photo.  It was his most cherished possession.

[Ella Gibbons]

Massive displacement of human beings.

The Indian Removal Act (which most of us have heard about but need to renew our knowledge now and then)"

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4p2959.html  -  one provision:

"In 1823 the Supreme Court handed down a decision which stated that Indians could occupy lands within the United States, but could not hold title to those lands. This was because their "right of occupancy" was subordinate to the United States' "right of discovery." In response to the great threat this posed, the Creeks, Cherokee, and Chicasaw instituted policies of restricting land sales to the government. They wanted to protect what remained of their land before it was too late."

Another:

"In 1830, just a year after taking office, Jackson pushed a new piece of legislation called the "Indian Removal Act" through both houses of Congress. It gave the president power to negotiate removal treaties with Indian tribes living east of the Mississippi. Under these treaties, the Indians were to give up their lands east of the Mississippi in exchange for lands to the west. Those wishing to remain in the east would become citizens of their home state. This act affected not only the southeastern nations, but many others further north. The removal was supposed to be voluntary and peaceful, and it was that way for the tribes that agreed to the conditions. But the southeastern nations resisted, and Jackson forced them to leave.

Jackson's attitude toward Native Americans was paternalistic and patronizing -- he described them as children in need of guidance. and believed the removal policy was beneficial to the Indians. Most white Americans thought that the United States would never extend beyond the Mississippi. Removal would save Indian people from the depredations of whites, and would resettle them in an area where they could govern themselves in peace. But some Americans saw this as an excuse for a brutal and inhumane course of action, and protested loudly against removal."

[serenesheila]

I am feeling a bit overwhelmed with all of the violence, in the last two books I have read.  So, I am taking a break for a couple of days, with some light reading.  I did watch a western movies earlier today, which was supposed to be about the same period in history, as our book.  However, it was about many tribes, but not Comanches.  It was also the story of Custer's last stand.  The movie's name is:  "Son of the Morning Star".

Sheila

[Jonathan]

The violence on the frontier, as described in the book, was overwhelming. That's the way it was. So how should one read such a statement as this from the book (p207) about the young Quanah:

'this ambitious Comanche boy who rode free on the western plains, stealing horses and taking scalps'

It seems to me it reflects the author's feeling after reading in his sources that Quanah bragged about knowing  'a ranch where he could steal nineteen comparable horses in a few hours,' to replace the ones his bride had cost him. (p206)

Thanks, Barb, for the links to the Chronicles of Oklahoma, and the Parker Family Reunion. The 'family' picture certainly has a lot of faces that show a resemblence to Cynthia Ann.

But, what to make of the family picture in the book, taken in 1908? It says, under the picture, that Quanah had seven wives and twenty-three children during the reservation period. Not one looks like Cynthia.

The Chronicles have Cynthia leaving behind  'the humdrum life of the civilized world' when she was captured. Why would she want to retuern to that?

[Babi]

I admired Cynthia Ann Parker when, despite her years in the wilderness, she was able to put her skills to work in ‘civilization’.   She was an expert tanner and could make ropes and whips, all of which were valuable skills. An amazingly strong, capable, steadfast woman.

[JoanP]

Babi, do you think that all that hard work accounted for Cynthia's massive arms and hands - which made her look more like an Indian squaw?  She probably would have had to picth in had she survived at Fork Parker, but the Comanches had the women do most of the grunt work, while they rode, rustled and hunted.  

I had missed the fact that she had died from self-inflicted starvation, though I'm not surprised.  I see in our book that "she died of influenza, complicated by self-starvation."  Also read that "she was buried three times in three cemeteries" before her final resting place.  Wonder what that was about.

Here's an interesting line in same chapter...relationg to the title...

"A white woman by birth... a relic of old Comancheria, of the fading empire of high grass and fat summer moons."

[JoanP]

"5. What weapon did Kit Carson bring to the battles he fought and how did this weapon save his life." 

I meant to address the Indian Removal Act question first, but Ella found this site on Kit Carson and asked to post it, so first things first...she did say "please."

Christopher "Kit" Carson

Kit Carson was born in Kentucky on Christmas Eve, 1809 and died in Colorado in 1868. His birth place was built of hand hewed logs on a hill in a modest wooded area. His father's name was Linsay Carson and his mother's name was Rebecca Robinson. (Marion Estergreen, THE REAL KIT CARSON, EL CREPUSCULO, 1955, pp. 1-2.)

Kit Carson had many Scandinavian Traits: He was short, of solid stature with a steadfast character, undefeatable, resolute, and loyal. He weighed about 115 pounds; he he was 5'8" tall with gray blue eyes and light sandy hair. His voice was said to be "as soft and gentle as a women's."

In all things he was temperate even though he smoked, but he abstained from liquor. Kit Carson holds a unique place in history; yet, a fitting characterization of him is difficult. "He was not a great man, nor a brilliant man but a great character," says Sabin.

This plain, modest and unlettered man had native qualities which those who knew him equaled the best they found in other men.

Carson played a role in opening the West and making it safe for the settlers. Many historians say Kit was illiterate; some even say he couldn't write his own name.

Kit Carson showed his loyalty to his home and kindness to the Indians who called him "Father Kit."

Kit Carson aided in organizing the first New Mexico volunteer infantry of which he was commisioned Lieutenant-Colonel on July 25,1861 and then Colonel on September 20, 1861. He took part in the Battle of Valverde on February 21, 1862, which took place in New Mexico during the Civil War.

He fought against the Mescalero Apaches and the Navajos. In 1864, he fought against the Kiowas and Comanches. On March 13, 1865, he was promoted to Brigadier- General of the New Mexico Civil War volunteers "for gallantry in the Battle of Valverde and for distinguished services in New Mexico.   from this site:  http://www.nmcn.org/heritage/civil_war/links/index.html

[JoanP]

"5. What weapon did Kit Carson bring to the battles he fought and how did this weapon save his life."  

I remember his name, but not much else about Kit Carson.  I remember cowboys and soldiers fighting Indians.  I remember Kit Carson as one of the cowboys - in his buckskins - not a soldier.  From reading this chapter in the book, it seems he was a soldier under the command of BG James Carleton who ordered Carson to go on a "punitive expedition"  into the western part of Commancheria, Llano Estcadio, where white men had not ever dared to go.  Carson had been a successful Indian fighter, was not afraid.  (I think I read that he also had several Indian wives too.)  He made his way to huge camp where the Comanches were wintering...attacked, pulled back when he saw they were outnumbered.  They would not have survived but they  had these little howitzers with them that helped them to avoid being massacred.

How do you remember him - a soldier or an Indian fighting cowboy - with several Indian wives and children?  A simple man, from all accounts, and yet a complicated one.

I'm learning so much about the West during the Civil War.  Union Indians, Confederate Indians with slaves.  Did the Indians fight one another, or did they fight along side the Armies?

There's reference to Fort Murrah on p.213.  Is there an association with the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City...does anyone know?

This brings us back to Oklahoma...and the Indian Removal Act...