Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C. Gwynne ~ February Book Club Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

Empire of the Summer Moon  by S.C.Gwynne

February Book Club Online  

It's an AMERICAN STORY.  THE U.S. ARMY, TEXAS RANGERS - SETTLERS- ALL AGAINST THE INDIANS The year was 1871 and the final destruction of the last of the hostile tribes was just beginning after 250 years of bloody combat.  The end of the Civil War had brought many new people to the west searching for land, adventure, glory. By this time the Indians had seen the buffalo depart, they were cadging food, stealing horses and other useful artifacts or ornamental things from the white man.   Some learned to speak Spanish or English.  All loved clothing and blankets made of cotton or wool, and the  accumulation of white man's artifacts.  It was a sort of cultural pollution that could not be stopped. And then there were the white captives; particularly a white squaw who had lived with the Indians, married, had a son named Quanah who became the last great Comanche War Chief.  An epic saga!  A fascinating  book! Come join us as we discuss the integration of the Indians into a civilized world.

Map of Great Plains - shaded in red

Discussion Schedule Feb  22 - 28  Chapters 19 -22

Great Plains near Nebraska

       

   

Talking Points
Feb. 22-28 ~ Chapters 19-22

1.  What was the general military situation as it existed in the Texas Panhandle in the spring of 1875?   What was General Sheridan's plan for final victory on the Southern Plains?

2.  What popular 1960’s-70’s song came out of a tactical order from General Mackenzie at the end of the battle of Palo Duro Canyon?

3.  What was the Comanche situation in the spring of 1876?  What options did Quanah have left?   Were you surprised at his decision to surrender by leading his people into the reservation?  What reception did the band receive from General Mackenzie when they arrived at Fort Still?

4.  How did Quanah measure up as the primary Comanche leader in the protection of Comanche interests in negotiations with the United States,  particularly in  connection with the forced sale of Indian land under the Dawes   Act?

5.  How did Quanah react toward new technology coming into general use in the early years of the 20th Century?  What misuse of technology almost resulted in Quanah’s death?  Discuss some of the incidents growing out of Quanah’s relationship with Theodore Roosevelt
.
6.  Discuss Quanah’s  role in the establishment of the Native American Church.  In Quanah’s words, how did he describe the difference between main stream Christian and Native American worship?

7.  Contrast Quanah’s reservation career with that of Setting Bull,  who was also a Fort Still resident.  


Related Links: Interview with author, S.C. Gwynne ; Listen to C-SPAN Interview HERE ;
MAP of Texas; Historical Maps of Texas ; Tribal Map of Oklahoma ;
All about the Red River (Mississippi River) ;
The Die is Cast ;

 

Discussion Leaders:  Ella & Harold

[CallieOK]

The Murrah Building in Oklahoma City was named for Alfred P. Murrah, who was born in Oklahoma in 1904. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_P._Murrah 

[Ella Gibbons]

THERE YOU ARE, CALLIE!   

I was just going to "holler" for you!  Thanks for answering JOANP's question.

And a big THANK YOU  to Joan for putting on Carson's photo.  He looks like an Indians himself, a big hero, one of the "most storied figures in the American West."  I remember him from my youth.

He was responsible for the first howitzers in the battle for the west.

I don't have much time today to review the questions or the book, but remembering that JONATHAN mentioned this movie, THE SEARCHERS, enjoy this brief YOUTUBE remiscence of the way it was.  JOHN WAYNE, WARD BOND - remember all those guys?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI2AZb04HAc

[CallieOK]

Ella,    You would have had to "holler loud".  I'm looking after grandchildren this weekend - in their home.  They were in school and had after-school athletics today so I had some computer time.

I brought the non-fiction "The Captured" and the novel "Ride The Wind" with me.  
As soon as I read the blurb on the back cover of RTW, I put it right back in my tote bag.  (Quoting) "The astonishing, beautifully written epic story of a white woman who became a Comanche, of Indians free in spirit, at one with the land, driven by fate to (fancy title letters here) Ride The Wind."  (End quote)   It's just a "paperback romance" type of story - and I'm not interested in imaginary conversations between the captives and their captors!

However, "The Captured" is written by Scott Zesch, a relative of Adolph Korn who became a Comanche warrior after he was captured and fought against the "enroachers".  The author discovered Korn's grave in Mason, Texas, tracked down surviving relatives, talked with Comanche elders and expanded his search to include other child captives from the region.
The book has a big picture section which includes actual photos of a Comanche camp in the 1870's.
I will definitely read this one.

I won't have time to do any more research for links until I'm back at my own computer next Tuesday.

[HaroldArnold]

I've been sort of sidetracked trying to figure out the importance of the alternate story of the Battle of the Pease river where Sol Ross in Dec 1860 captured Cynthia Ann and killed Peta Nokona.  According to this Ranger account Quanah and Peanuts escaped at that time and Ranger Captain Sul Ross Killed Peta Nocona after a battle and chase. In the alternate (Indian) account described in the 1934 Chronicles of Oklahoma the engagement was much less than a battle, much more a massacre of women since in this account the camp under attack was not a regular Comanche village but a hunting camp occupied only by women and Mexican slaves. Peta Nokona, Quanah, Peanuts and no actual warriors were present.  The Battle causalities were woman plus a single Mexican man.  

The account does not tell what happened to Peta Nokona who certainly disappeared about this time as there is apparently no report of him after this event.   Curiously the Comanche don't seem to have actively supported this story either   either because  of their the timidity as a conquered people reluctant to annoy their jailers, or as Quanah put it to one of his daughters, "Out of respect to the family of General Ross, do not deny that he killed Peta Nokoni."  If he felt that it was any credit to him to have killed my father, let his people continue to believe that he did so.

I would note that the fact that the woman were prominently mentioned in the Ranger's account, and the fact of the loaded pack mules loaded with newly dried meat lends an iota of support to the alternate account.  But also the fact that Peta Nocona never appeared again in any later historical account supports the Ranger story.  We will never know more, but for me the main historical significance of this battle was that for better or the worst, Cynthia Ann was captured and returned to her estranged family.  An unhappy ending, yes  but any other likely ending would have been equally sad. 

[Babi]

 Oh, definitely, JOANP. Hard physical labor will do that. I've got large knuckles just from
lifting heavy medical record files for years.
   
 What struck me especially about Kit Carson that while the officers were writing all these
exaggerated..or false...reports about their battles, Carson was always wholly truthful about
them. He felt no need to lie to make himself look better. That speaks of a man self-confident
and at peace with his actions, to my mind.
  I thought McKenzie was resonsible for the howitzers, tho'. Carson was the scout/guide/Indian
fighter.

  Quanah Parker. Again, we find a remarkable person, even  as a boy of twelve.  With his flight with his brother, he accomplished what few Comanches could have done, and probably no  white man.  And he lied about the ’battle’ of Pease River,  just as the whites did, but for different reasons.   He wanted to protect his Father’s reputation as a great war chief.
  I noticed another subtle dig from Gwynne in reference to Quanah.   Describing the tall, husky, Quanah, he states that  he “could have served as a model of how white people thought a noble savage ought to look,  not the least because he looked a bit like them” I am impressed
at how well Gwynne makes clear the ignorance and greed of the white man, without in the least
downplaying the savagery of the Indians.  Good and bad, beauty and warts, on both sides.
 

[maryz]

Heroes to some are not always heroes to others.  Andrew Jackson was responsible for the Trail of Tears - the removal of the long-peaceful and settled Cherokees from the Appalachian regions of GA, TN, and NC to Oklahoma, with many dying along the way.  This was done so the white settlers could have the fertile land of the Cherokees, plus the fact that gold had been discovered in the north GA mountains.  Jackson is no hero to the Cherokees.

Kit Carson was responsible for the seige of the Navajo in Canyon de Chelly in AZ, their eventual defeat, and removal to Bosque del Apache in New Mexico - a barren, infertile area totally unsuited to their culture.  Carson is no hero to the Navajo.

[JoanP]

Callie, thank you for the article on  Alfred P. Murrah, a different Murrah...  (I understand the noise level when babysitting grandchildren.)

I find comments that there was a connection between Judge Alfred Murrah of Oklahoma and  the Murrahs of Texas but can't find factual information.  Pendleton Murrah was the Confederate governor of Texas...elected in 1863.   Illegitmate, kept the Murrah family name.  Here's his story - http://hubpages.com/hub/Governor-Pendleton-Murrah-of-Texas

From this article -
 "He [Murrah] believed in the Confederate cause (States Rights and de-centralized authority) and fought for those beliefs. Had the Confederate States of America maintianed its integrity, his policies would have been viewed as foundational in preserving the rights of the States in the State Courts and policies existing in Texas."

A bit of irony - Timothy McVeigh grew up in a small town named  Pendleton - but no, that's not the connection I'm looking for.

[JoanP]

Harold...I thought for sure that Peta Naconi had stayed behind with his wife at Pease River, as he usually did, knowing that there was great interest in retaking her.  Wasn't there a young boy who got away and reported this?  Was there something that made you think he got away?  Was his body ever reclaimed?  I thought Cunthia Ann was grieving because she knew he was dead.

Edit - I just found this -
"Despite Ross's claim that Nocona was killed at Pease River, his son insisted he was not present, and died several years later. This claim is supported by Texas historian John Henry Brown. Brown had already disputed the identity of the chief killed at Mule Creek, before Quanah came onto the reservation, stating he was told the name of the man killed at Pease River was Mo-he-ew, not Peta Nocona. Quanah then wrote an affidavit disputing his father's death: "….while I was too young to remember the chief it is likely that Brown was correct…." [1]Wikipedia



MaryZ - your post got me thinking about Kit Carson's Indian wives...and their tribes.  I found this:

"Carson's first wife, Waa-Nibe, an Arapaho, died in 1838, after the couple had been together only three years. His second wife, Making-Out-Road, was a formidable Cheyenne woman who divorced him after fourteen months. Three years later, in 1843, Carson married Josefa Jaramillo, the fourteen-year-old daughter of a prominent Taos family. Seven of their children survived, and the couple also adopted several Indian children in the course of their long marriage that ended when Josefa died after the birth of her seventh baby.

Viewing Kit Carson's career as a husband and father sheds new light on the life choices he made. The changing economy of the 1840s made it increasingly difficult for a trapper and scout to support a growing family. Carson's years as an Indian agent in the 1850s provided him stability although he was never able to spend as much time with his family as any of them would have liked and he was never able to bring in a comfortable income."

I find him difficult to understand, yet life on the Great Plains is also beyond my comprehension - or imagination.

[JoanP]

There's a question in the heading about the title of Chapter Fifteen - "Peace and Other Horrors."

This chapter refers to the "collapse of the Conferacy and the  chaos on the frontier a the end of the Civil War.  Peace meant demilitarizing the South - it also meant Congress was unable or at least not inclined to spend money on keeping order in the west.  The prevailing belief was that the Comanche problem would be solved if they were just "treated properly."

That meant more treaties.  We've seen how they worked.  This was the very saddest chapter in the book - the last treaty ever to be signed - in 1867.  Estimated 4000 Indians in attendance...peace pipes, promises made...and in exchange the Indians were to redide on the lands provided to them, no more hostility.
When the Indians got up to speak, my tears came...pgs. 226 - 228.  The Indians knew what this meant.  Why did they sign the treaty?  Was it because they had no choice?  Did you notice that Quanah and his tribe, the Quahadis were not in attendance? 

At this point, I'm resigned to the fact that nothing could have been done - exceptmaybe to grant the Indians more, much more land on the Great Plains in that Treaty.  What do you think?

[Ella Gibbons]

OH!  Thank you all for posting, so much fun, so gratifying that there are people who still enjoy reading history, reading good history and debating the issues.  Because I think that they need to be debated, the world is still (and will forever be I think) divided between those that have, those who do not; those who are fanatical about religion or money or race, and those who are passive and let lives alone.

But I don't think any of us can think of a good solution for the native Americans once the continent was discovered and explored!

It was the last frontier for the white man to settle!  He needed land and he was mightier than the Indian. 

JOANP, I will read those pages when I get back today from some errands, I wonder if I will so affected!  And I must review what effect the end of the Confederacy had on the Comanches.  As I remember from the first reading, all these young soldiers, who liked the adventure of war, came out west to fight the Indians, but must review

Thanks for more information about Kit Carson and his Indian wives, his life among the Indians. 

There are so many great stories in this book, so many men that deserve respect and many who do not.   MARYZ pointed this out to us in her post!  Thanks MARY, for those comments.  So true.   

Glad you heard me hollering, CALLLIE,  stay home and let us hear from you!

I'll be back later after I have run around, it is still cold outside in Ohio, when, Dear Lord, will you send us some sign of spring?



 

[Jonathan]

'There are so many great stories in this book.'You'r right, Ella. What a panoramic narrative of those stormy years in Texas. What a lot of incidents the author had to draw on for his history. What a lot of differing accounts to consider. Gwynne almost certainly read the Chronicles of Oklahoma.

'Good and bad, beauty and warts, on both sides...' well put, Babi.

I've been hoping someone would find an answer to the meaning in Peace, and Other Horrors. That's probably the most thought-provoking of all the chapter headings. They are all, no doubt, designed to provoke speculation about the chapter contents. This one is different. It seems to have some meaning hidden in it. I finally decided that 'peace' was intended to be seen as the first horror. For the Comanches. The thought of a 'peaceful' life on the Reservation horrified them.

Chief Satanta had this to say:

This building homes for us is all nonsense. We don't want you to build any for us. We would all die....I want all my land even from the Arkansas south to the Red River. My country is small enough already. If you build us houses, the land will be smaller. Why do you insist on this?

The aging chief, Ten Bears, was even more disconsolate:

You have said that you want to put us on a reservation, to build us houses and make us medicine lodges. I do not want them. I was born under the prairie, where the wind blew free and there was nothing to break the light of the sun. I was born where there were no enclosures and everything drew a free breath. I want to die there and not within walls. I know every stream and wood between the Rio Grande and the Arkansas. I have hunted and lived over that country. I live like my fathers before me and like them I lived happily.

Tragically, the other horrors include  some inflicted on other Indians and Whites by these same Comanches.

[Jonathan]

What are we to understand by 'medicine lodge' as spoken by the chief? A church? Was he being sarcastic?

[JoanP]

Jonathan, that Peace treaty certainly was a horror for the Indian Tribes, wasn't it?  And don't forget they were illiterate - did not understand the words of the document on which they put their marks of agreement.  But they did understand what they were giving up by signing it.   Surely the saddest chapter of the book.  Anything else will be anticlimactic.  

Medicine Lodge..pn p. 224 -
"The conference that spawned it [the treaty] took place in October 1867 at a compound where the Kiowas held medicine dances about sevety five miles southwest ofthe present site of Wichita, Kansas."

"The major religious ceremony, the Medicine Dance (Midewiwin in Ojibwa) was held only once or twice a year. The curative function of the Midewiwin was based primarily on the supernatural, but included traditional medical treatment and education in traditional medicines. It is an exceedingly complex series of rituals and-out of respect for its religious importance and intricacy-can only be sketched here."http://www.mpm.edu/wirp/ICW-45.html

Don't you wonder how this site of obvious spiritual signicance to the Indians was chosen to force the Indians into signing their life away?

Here's more on that Treaty...the answer seems to be that the Indians themselves chose the spot - Medicine Lodge Treaty of 1867

[maryz]

I made an error (imagine that?!?! )  The Navajo were driven to Bosque Redondo.

[ Bosque del Apache is a New Mexico state park and wildlife reserve. ]

[Ella Gibbons]

It is very sad!  What else is there to say?  Our history is full of such horrors, e.g. slavery.

Did you note that Quanah was at Medicine Lodge; and why he should have been there is not known (pg.229).  

"I went and heard it.  There were many soldiers there.  The council was an unusual one, a great many rows.  The soldier chief said 'Here are two propositions.  You can live on the Arkansas and fight - or move down to the Wichita Mountains and I will help you.  But you must remember one thing and hold fast to it and that is you must stop going on the warpath."

Gwynne tells us that Medicine Lodge and all the other betrayals of the Indians was due to the Office of Indian Affairs, one of the most "corrupt, venal and incompetent government agencies in American history."

Well, that is saying a lot isn't it?  Let's not try to top it!!

I attempted to find out more about the Office of Indian Affairs, but was not very successful.  Are we too ashamed of it?  Gwynne doesn't give much of a history of it, or else I can't find it, and the web doesn't have much about it either.

There is this:  http://www.bia.gov/WhoWeAre/BIA/index.htm

HOWEVER, TO GET BACK TO THE BOOK:

In 1869 Congress did away with it, and in its place put the INDIAN BUREAU composed of gentle, peace-loving Quakers."

And what success would the Quakers have to effect a peace between the Comanche warriors and the white warriors?

(P.S.  Kit Carson barely survivedthe Battle of Adobe Walls, one of the largest battles ever fought on the Great Plains.  What saved him was dragging the lethal little howitzers to the top of a sand hill, which badly frightened the Indians.) pg.219

See this explanation of a howitzer:  http://visual.merriam-webster.com/images/society/weapons/modern-howitzer.jpg

[serenesheila]

Our book is destroying many of my life long assumptions.   It says that following the Civil War, there was no militia in Texas. Texas was a Southern State, and there was some fear, of having a military presence there.  I am surprised to learn that decisions were made by people in the East, who knew nothing about the Indian situation.  I had always assumed that Indian Agents were experienced and knowledgeable about the different tribes.

I am also surprised at how many different tribes there were.  I knew there were Arapahoe, Nez Perz, Commanche, Apache, Navaho, etc.  But, I had no idea how many other tribes were a part of this country.  I find it interesting that some of the tribes adjusted to farming, and a non nomadic way of life. 

I often wonder why the Euro Americans believed that we were superior to the American Indian, and the African Americans?  Both had a culture, which we seem never to have put a value on.

Sheila

[Babi]

 I don't believe the chief was being sarcastic in his reference to a medicine lodge, JONATHAN.  The medicine lodge was a place for
teaching, healing, and various ceremonies.  I found this, which may
be how the Indians saw the events taking place.
  Wiikwandiwin ([Seasonal] Ceremonial Feast)—performed four times per year, once per season. The Wiikwandiwin is begun with a review of the past events, hope for a good future, a prayer and then the smoking of the pipe ..."  These ceremonies are held in mid-winter and mid-summer in order to bring together peoples various medicines and combine their healing powers for revitalization

I had always assumed that Indian Agents were experienced and
knowledgeable about the different tribes.

Unfortunately, SHEILA, I think the agents were often political
appointments, and were about as suited to the posts as such appoint-
ments generally are. Some Indian agents were quite sincere in their
desire to do a good job, but even so I believe most had little
understanding of the Indian culture and outlook.

[Jonathan]

At the 1867 peace talks Chief Ten Bears quite clearly said, I do not want the medicine lodges that you want to make for us. He must have been thinking of the missions that had been planted among them by zealous Christians.

It seems the term 'medicine' had been adopted by Indians. But it's a white man's concept, isn't it? It's use by the Indians seems like an attempt to understand or adapt something useful - to acquire additional power. Puha, they called it.

On the other hand, Whites have certainly recognized an alternative medicine in the Indian methods of diagnosis and prescription. Life is a struggle for all of us. It's traditional that we grade each others medicines. That's where the superiority factor comes in.

[Jonathan]

Joan, the Religious and Ceremonial Life link was very informative. I would like to learn more of that aspect of Indian life.

[HaroldArnold]

I often wonder why the Euro Americans believed that we were superior to the American Indian, and the African Americans.  Both had a culture, which we seem never to have put a value on: Sheila

I think just about every culture world wide have pretty well convinced themselves that their particular people were special.  Among the hundreds, probably thousands American Indian tribes, the meaning of the word they called themselves in their own language seems most always to convey idea that they were the very special people favored by the Gods.  Every tribe seemed to picture themselves as a very special people favored by god.  And isn’t this the same mentality of the European settlers that gave them their claim to all the Indian land?

Also regarding the discussion thread on the Medicine Lodge.  Among the plains buffalo tribes the ideal of the Medicine Lodge seems to me to have been as special hut or other structure that was a special place where men assembled particularly to prepare themselves mentally and spiritually for war. .The Caddo farmers in East Texas too built a special grass hut for this same purpose for each war sortie.  When the war party returned it was burned.  Also The Pueblo tribes in New Mexico prepared permanent circular underground excavations called Kivas.  They were some 20 feet deep where Men met for spiritual preparation for their daily life, war or whatever.  

[HaroldArnold]

Jonathan:  George Catlin gives the definition of Medicine as used by the Indians as “Magic.”  They do not know details about a thing or event it just happened or it exists; as if by magic

Joan P and all:  For me Peta Nokona either was killed at the Pease River engagement or else he died by some other cause about that time.  This could have been in some other unrecorded encounter or an accident or sudden fatal sickness.  For me this seems unlikely because for a man of Peta Nokona’s stature it would seem some account of the event would survive.  Yet he is never heard of again after Pease River.

[Ella Gibbons]

"I think just about every culture world wide have pretty well convinced themselves that their particular people were special". - Harold

I agree, we could talk about superiority forever couldn't we?  Does might make right?

---------------------
You must click upon this site and be sure to listen to the videos.  The modern Comanche is remembering their history, which is wonderful, really.  Hunting and wars is what they talk about.  But no farms, no art, not much else.  Now that they have no enemies, they are weak.  No buffalo, they depend upon the government.

http://www.comanchenation.com/

[Babi]

 Considering all that was said about the militia at home during the civil war, and how inferior they were to the Comanche fighters, I was amused to read that  “One regiment, embarking on an Indian pursuit,  decided instead to head for another fort and play poker.”   On the whole, I think that was very sensible of them.   
 
The description of the gathering at Medicine Creek is fascinating, and so vivid it is easy to picture it. How could anything be more impressive that the magnificent horsemanship of those thousands of Comanche, approaching  in the form of a  circling wheel in a spectacular feat of coordination.  It is  beyond my understanding how the officials there could witness so impressive a performance and still not grasp that these people were neither stupid nor childlike.  Then I read the excerpts from the speeches made there by  the Indian chiefs,  and it is all terribly beautiful and terribly sad.

  We're getting back to MacKenzie..and Custer...now. I already knew that Custer had more flare than sense, but  that didn’t begin to express it.  “Libidinous.” “Alcoholic”   Ranked 34th in a class of 34 at West Point, with a record of 726 demerits!  How does a man like this get to be an officer.  Oh, yes, I know…he was courageous in battle and was promoted in the field. But
the line between courageous and foolhardy is a narrow one, and is especially dangerous in a man who has the responsibility for other lives

[Jonathan]

'Hunting and wars is what they talk about.'

And isn't that what Gwynne's book is all about? About the most amazing warrior tribe, with a very simple culture. The first paragraph of Chapter 18 is a good description of its short history:

But something even worse than No-Finger Chief (Mackenzie) haunted the Comanche nation in the cruel spring of 1874. They were losing their identity. In the long years of their ascendancy they had always been a people apart, fiercely independent, arrogantly certain that their pragmatic, stripped-down spartan ethic was the best way to live. Unlike the Romans, who had borrowed everything from clothing to art, food, and religion from cultures aroung them, the Commanches were aggressively parochial. They were the world's best horsemen and the unchallenged military masters of the south plains. They did not elaborate religious rituals or complex social hierarchies. They kept their own counsel.

How piteful to hear about them at the end of the chapter, relying on Isa-tai's magic to win them a battle with the hide men. By then there wasn't much to choose between hide men and Comanches:

The hide men were on the whole, a nasty lot. They were violent, alcoholic, illiterate, unkempt men who wore their hair long and never bathed.

(the Comanches) are a lazy, dirty, lousy, deceitful, race. True manhood is unknown, and they hold their women in abject slavery.p 261

[HaroldArnold]

>(the Comanches) are a lazy, dirty, lousy, deceitful, race. True manhood is unknown, and they hold their women in abject slavery.p 261

I don't think I could ever characterize the Comanche as lazy but the words dirty and lousy are certainly applicable..Also their women certainly were subject of a lifetime of hard labor.  But practice of rape and pillager and torture in its vilest forms  cannot easily be over looked.  But further discussions on this point are best left til the end of next week as we conclude this discussion.

      

[BarbStAubrey]

Seems many cultures hold their women in abject slavery including the ancient Greeks - difference we have wrapped them up in the Golden foil of Myth, and god like heroism. Closer to our lifetime the filth and lice seem to be fresh in the collective memory.

A link to: Comanche Nation OK. official website.

Amazon.com sells a book on the Comanche written by Willard H. Rollings, who was also a spokesman for water rights in New Mexico. He died a couple of years ago.

And then nearly every child growing  up in Texas has this story read to them, The Legend Of The Bluebonnet a Comanche myth about our much loved State Flower.

A link to Youtube where a Grandmother reads to her two grand-daughters the  The Legend Of The Bluebonnet

And here is a link explaining how one small town in Texas handled the fears of children when they saw the Comanche fires on the hillsides while the leader of the community were negotiating a Peace Treaty with the Comanche Easter Fires

[HaroldArnold]

 I have two other  books on the Comanche.  The first is The Comanches- Lords of the South Plains. By Ernest Wallace & E. Adamson Hoebel Published by the University of Oklahoma Press Norman Ok, 1986.  The second is Los Comanches, The Horse People.1751 - 1845 .  By Stanley Noyes, 1993, apparently self published by the author.  I got both of them through my work at the I.T.C.

I remember reading the first book some 15 years ago.  As I remember it, it covered the general history from the 18th century when the Comanche first came to the attention of the Spanish in New Mexico and Texas.  I think our present book is written in a more interesting manner and therefore it is easier to understand.  I don't remember reading the second title but I remember wondering why the author terminated his account at such an early date.   I note today that the pristine new condition of the paperback seems to confirm the fact that I did not spend much time reading it.

[BarbStAubrey]

here you go - these books appear to still be available The Comanches- Lords of the South Plains

Los Comanches, The Horse People.1751 - 1845

[Aberlaine]

Our book is destroying many of my life long assumptions.   It says that following the Civil War, there was no militia in Texas. Texas was a Southern State, and there was some fear, of having a military presence there.  I am surprised to learn that decisions were made by people in the East, who knew nothing about the Indian situation.  I had always assumed that Indian Agents were experienced and knowledgeable about the different tribes.

I am also surprised at how many different tribes there were.  I knew there were Arapahoe, Nez Perz, Commanche, Apache, Navaho, etc.  But, I had no idea how many other tribes were a part of this country.  I find it interesting that some of the tribes adjusted to farming, and a non nomadic way of life. 

I often wonder why the Euro Americans believed that we were superior to the American Indian, and the African Americans?  Both had a culture, which we seem never to have put a value on.

Sheila

I feel the same way, Sheila.  Whites always assume they are superior.  Where does that come from?  Even now, as our "melting pot" becomes less and less Caucasian, we still treat minorities as inferior.  Is this a defense mechanism?

If the settlers never pushed into Comancheria, could the Comanche had lived peacefully in their own territory?  They were warriors - all they knew was war.  Could they have left the whites alone and become neighbors?  Manifest Destiny prevented that.  Just think, our United States could have had a western border at the plains and an Indian "country" would spread to the Pacific.

[Babi]

...  It hadn’t really struck me, until now, that by 1872  the Plains were no longer a trackless, unknown territory.  Besides wagon trains and  trail herds, the county was  now spanned by railroads and telegraph  lines.   Civilization has encroached.    Comancheria is greatly reduced, and the numbers of the Comanche are even more greatly reduced.  It’s only a matter of time, now.

 The  band and clan distinctions are disappearing.  “Most of the Arapahos had given up….  The Cheyennes were confused and leaderless….   The Kiowas were riven by political quarrels….Just a few thousand Comanche who were watching their old world die and losing their identity in the process.” 
 You know, that’s what I saw in the eyes of those braves in the photographs.  The hopeless look of people who had lost their identity.  I couldn’t quite put my finger on what I saw there, until now.

  “Cheating the Indians was always a good business.”   And when they weren’t being cheated out of greed, they were suffering due to stupidity.   (Oh, yeah, we’ve got a few thousand people coming.  We really do need  some food and supplies, don’t we?  Oops! )

 

 

[Ella Gibbons]

Thank you, BARBARA, for the recommendations, but I don't believe the Comanches are in danger of being lost to history.  This book was just published and will be read for some time in the future; history is never dead.

Chapter 18 was very sad to read, the end of an era, the buffalo gone, even the medicine man and the raids were not successful.  It all ended in humiliation; Quanah was wounded.

1874, President Grant gave Sherman permission to put the agencies and reservations under military rule.  The five years of Quaker authority, the hope for peace, was over. 

"to subdue all Indians who offered resistance to constituted authority." - President Grant

As SHEILA and ABERLAINE both said all decisions regarding Indians were made in the East; few knowledgeable agents of Indian culture were consulted.

We begin the last few chapters of the book today, beginning with Chapter Nineteen, THE RED RIVER WAR.

The first sentence says "by the late summer of 1874 there were only three thousand Comanches left in the world."

[ANNIE]

Here's a tidbit about Quanah Parker Burgess who is the great grandson of Quanah Parker.http://quanahburgess.tripod.com/

[Ella Gibbons]

"Today, the Comanche Nation consists of 14,105 members (2008 enrollment figures),[1] about half of whom live in Oklahoma (centered at Lawton). The remainder are concentrated in Texas, California, and New Mexico. The Comanche speak the Comanche language, a Numic language of the Uto-Aztecan family, sometimes classified as a Shoshone dialect." - Wikipedia

CALLIE - from Oklahoma - are you around?  Yoo-hoo!  Do you know where the reservation at Lawton is?

[ANNIE]

Did we know that the Comanches were the first Code Talkers??  Read on this page toward bottom.
http://www.comanchenation.com/CIVA/index.html

[Ella Gibbons]

No, I didn't Ann!  Thanks for that, I'll post a bit of it here:

"The Comanches also had the first military trained Code Talkers. Seventeen Nation members helped develop a Code for radio communications used in the European Theater of operations. Fourteen of the Code Talkers landed on Normandy Beach on D-Day, June 6, 1944, as members of the 4th Infantry Division, and earned five Battle Stars fighting the German Army - their code was never broken."

NEW QUESTIONS FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION IN THIS FINAL WEEK ARE IN THE HEADING!!!

[Ella Gibbons]

Over the years I have read a bit, quite a bit of history of the Civil War, and the names of Grant, Sherman and Sheridan are familiar in that context; but in this book I have had to place them in context with such names as Quanah, Shaking Hand, Wild Horse and Hears The Sunrise. 

Good for the mind, so to speak? 

Chapter Nineteen is almost as sad as the previous ones.  Can you imagine a pile of 1000 dead horses which marked the end of the Indian way of life -  the horse, their means of survivial.  The pile of bones became over the years a navigational landmark; how awful for the Indians to see that!

[BarbStAubrey]

 Wow thanks for the link Ann to the art of Quanah Parker Burgess

Ella I find when I read a book that grabs me that I follow it up with others to deepen my experience and so I am grateful that Harold shared the titles he read and with Spring happening here the Bluebonnet season is knocking on our door so that the Comanche children's tale is front and center in schools, libraries and bookstores - also, many of us are making plans to attend the annual Easter Fires in Fredericksburg - Ella they were not offered to take away from this wonderful book but to let folks know how much a part of our lives the influence is from the Comanche.

[Ella Gibbons]

More places to visit, BARBARA!  Click here for museums and other places to see.  Oh, I wish was in Texas, we are iced in today in Ohio.  

Be sure to scroll down on this site to see the Palo Duro Canyon - which was sthe Quahadis' sanctuary for years and is now a state park.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.forttumbleweed.net/lighthouse_paloDuroCanyon.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.forttumbleweed.net/amarillo.html&h=449&w=411&sz=174&tbnid=_3TtO6aqKM6dKM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3DPalo%2BDuro%2BCanyon&zoom=1&q=Palo+Duro+Canyon&hl=en&usg=__RC0ja-qqSDMXDRduKZieOAP3Ljc=&sa=X&ei=yNZjTYaOBojogQe28LmxAg&ved=0CEMQ9QEwBQ

[Jonathan]

' to let folks know how much a part of our lives the influence is from the Comanche.'

Thanks, Barb, for the information about the Easter Fires at Fredericksburg. It does suggest that the Comanches may have left a legacy that is more than the hunting and fighting that we are hearing about in the book.