Author Topic: Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C. Gwynne ~ February Book Club Online (Read 141048 times)

maryz · « **Reply #40 on:** January 03, 2011, 06:21:36 PM »

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.

Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C.Gwynne

February Book Club Online

It's an AMERICAN STORY. THE U.S. ARMY, TEXAS RANGERS - SETTLERS- ALL AGAINST THE INDIANS

The year was 1871 and the final destruction of the last of the hostile tribes was just beginning after 250 years of bloody combat. The end of the Civil War had brought many new people to the west searching for land, adventure, glory.

By this time the Indians had seen the buffalo depart, they were cadging food, stealing horses and other useful artifacts or ornamental things from the white man. Some learned to speak Spanish or English. All loved clothing and blankets made of cotton or wool, and the accumulation of white man's artifacts. It was a sort of cultural pollution that could not be stopped.

And then there were the white captives; particularly a white squaw who had lived with the Indians, married, had a son named Quanah who became the last great Comanche War Chief. An epic saga! A fascinating book! Come join us as we discuss the integration of the Indians into a civilized world.

Map of Great Plains - shaded in red

Great Plains near Nebraska

Discussion Schedule:

Feb. 1 - 7 Chapters 1 - 7
Feb. 8 - 14 Chapters 8 - 13
Feb. 15 - 21 Chapters 14-18
Feb 22 - 28 Chapters 19 -22

Related Links:; Interview with author, S.C. Gwynne ; Listen to C-SPAN Interview HERE ;
MAP of Texas; Historical Maps of Texas ; Tribal Map of Oklahoma ;
All about the Red River (Mississippi River) ;
The Die is Cast ;

Discussion Leaders: Ella & Harold

maryz - Ella, Gwynne does mention that "location X" is i.e., 10 miles SW of present-day Lubbock, or someplace. You'd still need a regular map to go with it.

JoanP · « **Reply #41 on:** January 03, 2011, 10:00:52 PM »

Welcome, Kay! You won't find a more welcoming and caring group than the folks here on SeniorLearn. You've come to the right place!

Ella, this poor Jersey girl will have to read the book more than once. Just off the train from the EAST, I'm finding Texas to be a foreign country...the names of places AND people, all foreign to me. Those who mention the one map in the front of the book as insufficient, I agree, I've turned to it several times, only to be disappointed. Even the rivers mentioned in the book do not show on this map. I HAVE heard the name Quanah Parker - but not his tribe, the Quahadis. (I thought he was a Comanche...maybe they are one and the same?)

OK, I'll stop reading now, as you say! But you can see I am so far behind in my knowledge of the history of Texas, that I feel the need to learn something of the geography before we start. - I just know I'm going to learn a lot about Texas - it's about time!

kiwilady · « **Reply #42 on:** January 04, 2011, 03:08:47 AM »

I will be joining you. My library has the book and I am first on the list. However if I cannot renew it I will be without a copy for some of the discussion. If I don't reserve I could miss out! What a quandry. Hopefully I can renew or maybe get my daughter to take it out then I get it for another month. If there are no requests after mine she would be able to do this. (She is a librarian)

I will probably get quite emotional during this book as I have been so upset about lies told to us in our history books when I was a child and then finding out what really happened when I was an adult. I have a real empathy with all indigenous peoples. This despite me being of colonial settler stock.

Carolyn

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #43 on:** January 07, 2011, 10:18:49 AM »

JOANP, my knowledge of Texas is similarly poor. We'll both learn. The early days of Texas and statehood. I know very little.

Oh, good, Carolyn. We are always happy to have you in a discussion. And, yes, the truth! Your situation in your country was probaby similar in some ways to our own?

Have you had a lot of movies depicting the natives as savages?

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #44 on:** January 10, 2011, 11:56:35 PM »

Click the following for "The Handbook of Texas." http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online . This on line encyclopedia has been compiled by theTexas Historical Association and is generally a good source for information on all things 'Texas.

kiwilady · « **Reply #45 on:** January 11, 2011, 12:14:15 AM »

In the days when I was a child yes we did have movies like that. However we also had many American movies because our movie industry was very primitive in those days being such a tiny tiny country. The Westerns we watched here gave me nightmares. I wonder today why they showed these movies to small kids at Saturday matinees.

I am looking forward to reading this book and participating in the discussion. I have a great empathy for indigenous peoples despite being of settler stock. I am fifth generation on my mothers side. My great great grandparents were early settlers in Auckland. The big push was in the mid 1800s.

Carolyn

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #46 on:** January 11, 2011, 06:14:54 PM »

I don't know either, Carolyn, but all kids like cowboys and Indians, don't they? And the Indians were always the bad guys weren't they? They looked mean and they were savages and they always used bows and arrows. No, I think they had guns in some movies. I can't really remember.

Can't remember when I've seen a "western" movie, we always called them cowboy show. If they come on TV on a station they are gone in a click.

John Wayne sat tall in the saddle, guess in real life he was a big guy.

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #47 on:** January 11, 2011, 06:49:36 PM »

The truth is I have hardly ever watched western movies or TV at any time in my adult life. This includes the years of the late 50's and 60's when some 2 out of 3 TV shows were westerns. I guess I was watching Lucy or Dick Van Dike or the likes; or maybe I just didn't watch that much TV. In any case this present book is certainly a Western complete with a cast off thousands mostly Comanche Apache etc. and of course Texas Rangers and U.S. Calvary.

CallieOK · « **Reply #48 on:** January 11, 2011, 08:06:03 PM »

...and quite a bit of it takes place in what is now Oklahoma.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #49 on:** January 12, 2011, 01:25:14 PM »

CALLIE, are the reservations still there and have the Indians built houses on them? Done any farming? I know, I'm very ignorant of the current situation in regard to our native Indians.

CallieOK · « **Reply #50 on:** January 12, 2011, 04:12:27 PM »

Ella, there's really no way to generalize about the 39 Indian tribes that call Oklahoma home.

Basically, they live very much like everyone else and are quite integrated into the general culture - while, at the same time, retaining much of their tribal heritage and having individual tribal governments.
Some of the tribes have always owned mineral rights on their tribal lands with income from oil and gas prodution. In recent years, some tribes have built casinos on their lands and have become quite wealthy from them.

I'll furnish some links to web sites and provide some information as we read the book next month.

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #51 on:** January 12, 2011, 06:29:27 PM »

I am more familiar with the Indian tribal lifestyle in New Mexico than elsewhere, and the description give by Callie for the Oklahoma tribes certainly applies in New Mexico also. A few years back I spent Xmas and New Years at my Brothers house near Red River that is near Taos. There in their own two or three bedroom adobe houses Indian families live at the Indian Pueblo (the reservation). This Taos Pueblo holds three separate public ceremonies during the Xmas-New Year period; these are the Procession of the Virgin on Xmas Eve Night, The deer dance in mid-week and the corn dance on New Years day.

The Procession of the virgin in an interesting combination of Indian and European-Christian cultures in which the life sized image of the virgin Mary is paraded through the pueblo compound after dark on Xmas eve. It was a cold night with the temperature in the low 20's. The Compound was illuminated by some 50 large bonfires and orchestrated by rifle fire from several high caliper guns fired by Indian police at the procession's rear; visitors could feel the compression from a hundred feet away. The procession was led by a catholic priest and the Reservation political leaders with several hundred Indians, all men, following. It took the better part of an hour for the virgin to complete her tour of the 50 acre compound. The tour complete with the bonfires in decline, the virgin was returned to her place in the church, the indian men retired to their Kievas for their own special Indian ceremonies, the priest to his own Xmas celebration , and the several thousand tourists broke for their automobiles. My family hasted to a Taos restaurants where reservations had previously been made for a late evening dinner.

The deer dance came in mid week. It was a typical large group dance performed by men only. The Corn Dance came on New years day. It was performed by both men and women. Today life at the Taos Reservation appeared to me to encompass an interesting combination of Indian and Anglo-American culture.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #52 on:** January 13, 2011, 10:18:17 AM »

CALLIE, I'll be looking forward to it!

HAROLD, from your description of the Indians celebrating the holidays, I would comment that they have found another way to raise money or, at least, bring their culture to the public's attention. Was that a true celebration of the Indians, who were not Christians, celebrating the holidays?

While in New Mexico some years ago we took a walking trip with a local guide and he talked about the Indians (who are very apparent in Santa Fe and are allowed to present their wares on all the sidewalks). Gosh, was he cynical! He said that
by law the Indians are required to live 3 months on the reservation to establish their permanent residency; but many of them have homes in the city, are businessmen and well-to-do. However, if they want it, they are entitled to free health care and other benefits.

The guide talked of the four cultures in the state, the white man, the Hispanic, the native Indian, and the true Spanish. He said they must all be represented in their state government and, consequently, each is forever attempting to usurp the other.

HAROLD, is any of the above true?

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #53 on:** January 13, 2011, 10:57:53 AM »

There was a beautiful picture of buffalo in my local paper a few days ago and I cut it out and sent it to my sister in AZ, darn! And now I can't find it, but there are plenty on the web. We have a local restaurant that serves only bison meat (I think it is Ted Turner's restaurant, or, at least it is called Ted's). His autobiography is a good book incidentally.

Give me land, lots of land (and don't fence me in) - buffalo need it! We'll talk more about them later, but here's an article.

http://ourohio.org/index.php?page=oh-give-me-a-home-2

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #54 on:** January 14, 2011, 07:46:20 PM »

NOTE - ALERT - ALL INTERESTED IN THE BOOK!

Tomorrow on BOOKTV the author will be discussing the book. TUNE IN TOMORROW AT 9:15 p.m. EST

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #55 on:** January 15, 2011, 10:11:03 PM »

What an enthusiastic author and editor!

One of the questions from the audience at the Texas Book Festival was why did Gwynne not furnish maps in the book. As noted in one of the posts, we need maps. Hopefully, once we start the discussion we can find maps on Google. Our author said that was one of the complaints he heard the most.

Possibly, probably, Harold can provide us with information about the places referred to in the book; he has knowledge of Texas and the plains.

I'm a Yankee and I know very little about Texas, the plains (Amarillo and Lubbeck?) and I hope to learn a great deal from this book and our discussion.

serenesheila · « **Reply #56 on:** January 16, 2011, 12:50:12 AM »

I just watched C-Spans interview with this author. It will be shown again at 2:15 a.m.. on Monday. I was a bit disappointed with the interview. I am not sure what I expected, but whatever it was, it didn't happen for me. For one thing I feel the man doing the interview did too much talking. I was much more interested in what the author had to say.

However, I really enjoyed the Q and A section. The program did increase my interest for taking part in out discussion.

Sheila

kiwilady · « **Reply #57 on:** January 16, 2011, 02:50:57 AM »

My book arrived today. I have skimmed through the first couple of chapters and I know I am going to enjoy the discussion we will have.

Carolyn

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #58 on:** January 16, 2011, 12:18:19 PM »

Carolyn we are happy to have you join us. Perhaps you can offer some comment relative to your own early colonial history. I suspect you too had your problems but it was probably less violent than ours.

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #59 on:** January 16, 2011, 12:44:24 PM »

From Ella above: <HAROLD, from your description of the Indians celebrating the holidays, I would comment that they have found another way to raise money or, at least, bring their culture to the public's attention. Was that a true celebration of the Indians, who were not Christians, celebrating the holidays?>

My point was that to me the Indian culture today seems an interesting MIXTURE off the old Indian and new (for them) European –Christian. The Procession Of The Virgin was on its face typical European Catholic Christian. But the manner in which it was performed was certainly Indian, quite different from a church ceremony in Spain. Also the conclusion with the Indian Men participants retiring to their Indian Kivas stands out as a manifestation of their continued regard for their cultural past.

Regarding the dances they seem more Indian but again the manner in which they are performed again inserts a modern Anglo vector. Ella is right admission to all of these events was by admission ticket costing as I remember $10.00 plus another $10.00 if the entrant had a camera.

Aberlaine · « **Reply #60 on:** January 17, 2011, 08:43:07 AM »

Couldn't finish Little Bee, but this one sounds like a winner. I just hope the graphic descriptions aren't too graphic and Empire of the Summer Moon is more historical.

Nancy

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #61 on:** January 17, 2011, 09:44:13 AM »

Welcome Nancy!

Definitely historical, nonfiction, true! But Indians fight Indians, Indians fight the Texas Rangers, the Army and the white settlers. I hope you don't mind that historical truth. It's our history. We have fought our bloody battles, the Revolutionary War, the Civil War and that latter war was barely over when the ragtag armies of Sherman, et al. decided to get rid of the Indians once and forever.

There is much more to the book than that brief summary. It's a good book, I think you will enjoy the discussion, it's our history.

kiwilady · « **Reply #62 on:** January 17, 2011, 03:29:32 PM »

We had the Maori wars! Very bloody too but not as long lasting as your Indian conflicts.

Carolyn

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #63 on:** January 18, 2011, 10:04:47 AM »

When you stop by this discussion, look at the two pictures in the heading! Tthe plains where the buffalo roamed and the Indians lived. Beautiful pictures, aren't they? (from Wikipedia) The Comanches depended upon the plains, particularly, because they were nomadic in nature and went where the buffalo were. Amazing how one could live on buffalo alone.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #64 on:** January 18, 2011, 10:13:18 AM »

Carolyn, I started to look up the Maori tribes and came to this first. What an expressive face she has and how many of us can say we are natives, our ancestors have always lived here. She claims to be able to trace her ancestry back 200 generations. Wow.

http://www.globalonenessproject.org/videos/therighttobeme

kiwilady · « **Reply #65 on:** January 18, 2011, 01:44:44 PM »

They traced gene connections with Maori and the indigenous Taiwanese people some years ago so the Polynesian race may have orignated in China! There are many facial features common to both peoples. My SILs grandmother was Maori and Brooke has the genes while Grace has the Celtic genes from both sides of my late husband and my families. Brooke has almond shaped eyes and olive skin. She has really thick curly hair which she wears long or she would end up with an Afro. Maori have intermarried here in huge numbers. I don't think there are any full blooded Maori left. I think early Maori as in Goldies paintings are very majestic looking people. They do remind me of the American Indians as depicted in early art works. There are so many aspects of all indigenous cultures which are identical.

One of the unique aspects of NZ culture is that Maori language after a huge battle in the seventies has been fostered and it will not die now.Many Maori words such as Whanau (family) and Kia Ora ( greetings) Kai ( food) are in common usage now by both Maori and Pakeha ( white people).

While we do a lot of naval gazing here about race relations I think in comparison to many other countries we do very well.

kiwilady · « **Reply #66 on:** January 18, 2011, 01:57:41 PM »

I should add that as an adult I began to think about colonisation a lot. I cannot help feeling enormous empathy for indigenous peoples. I also feel abject shame at the greed and arrogance of my forbears. How would we feel if we were overun by a foreign power and all our lands taken from us,by force in many cases? How resentful would we feel even up to today if we seemed to be a forgotten and marginalised people, misunderstood and despised even.

I have in the last few years been to Maori funerals and at some of them I have been one of only a handful of white people. I feel privileged to have been invited and to experience a way of grieving which is so different to that of the European. I remember at one Tangi ( funeral) I was profusely thanked for attending over the three days of ceremonies. I thought to myself, why should I be thanked? I was attending the tangi of someone I had known for over three decades.

One of my ambitions is to learn the Maori language before the end of my days. There are classes in Te Reo all over the country I just have to find a daytime class in my city. I don't have good night vision.

CallieOK · « **Reply #67 on:** January 23, 2011, 12:21:15 AM »

How soon will we have the "reading schedule"? I now have my own copy - but the time between now and the beginning of the discussion will be very busy and I would like to start reading/making notes/etc. ASAP.

kiwilady · « **Reply #68 on:** January 23, 2011, 01:37:51 AM »

Personally I am going to begin reading the first couple of chapters next week.

Carolyn

ALF43 · « **Reply #69 on:** January 23, 2011, 12:02:24 PM »

While reading the first few chapters, I was reminded of Little Bee, a book we are now discussing for January. The young Parker girl here was captured by the Indians and forced into a barbaric, uncivilized culture. Whereas Little Bee was displaced by the British from Nigeria, a backward, brutal country and forced into a detention center in England, from which she then went on to meld into our "civilized" society. Which would be more difficult I wonder? Both girls lost their individual lives: their families and loved ones.

JoanP · « **Reply #70 on:** January 23, 2011, 12:04:56 PM »

Callie - the discussion schedule has just been added to the heading as Ella requested. I must confess to getting a head start on the reading. Was really interested to read that what is now Oklahoma was set up as Indian country in the early 1800's by the US government - to guarantee they would have land of their own to live "undisturbed." It will be interesting to learn what happened to this.

Living in the east all my life, I have seen very little indication that Indians ever lived here - EXCEPT, and I guess this is a big exception, the names of rivers, parks, streets, etc. As far as I know, there are no Indian families living in New Jersey - or Virginia today. Your experience, your environment is probably very different. Having "westerners" in this discussion is really going to be interesting...

Discussion Schedule:

Feb. 1 - 7 Chapters 1 - 7
Feb. 8 - 14 Chapters 8 - 13
Feb. 15 - 21 Chapters 14-18
Feb 22 - 28 Chapters 19 -22

Jonathan · « **Reply #71 on:** January 23, 2011, 02:03:50 PM »

It's good to hear that something of the vanished Indians has been preserved in the names given to rivers, parks, and streets on the eastern seaboard. What a calamity it must have been for them, to be pushed aside by the land-hungry Europeans. On a par, perhaps, with being thrown out of paradise. But I've never been to Oklahoma, so I may be mistaken. A guarantee to live 'undisturbed' must have sounded good to the Indians. Does the memory of a golden age, I wonder, live on among the descendants of those disposessed Native Americans.

CallieOK · « **Reply #72 on:** January 23, 2011, 02:49:44 PM »

JoanP, Thank you! I've read the book - but want to re-read concentrating on the chapters under discussion at the time.

I can - and will - provide links to pertinent Oklahoma information.

However, I'd like to suggest that, for the purposes of this discussion, we don't "throw in" too many facts about the Indian tribes in Oklahoma other than the Comanches and Apaches which are addressed in "Empire of the Summer Moon" - along with a few others mentioned in connection with them.

Otherwise, we'll be getting into Indian "removals" from eastern states - which don't apply to the Plains Indians who were already here.

Discussion Leaders - do you agree?

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #73 on:** January 23, 2011, 06:58:51 PM »

Yes, Callie, too many Indian tribes are confusing, and I see little relevance (actually none at all) to Eastern tribes being forced (as most of us know) onto the reservations of the West.

There is much to discuss in the book - in the first 7 seven chapters - our assigned chapters for the first week. We can thank Gwynne for making this history come alive for us; from his extensive reserach as noted by Notes and Bibliography in the back of the book. Personally, I think it is an astonishing book, one that has added greatly to my meager knowledge sof western Indians.

We will start our discussion on February lst - another week or so! Am looking forward to all your comments and the discussion. We will be putting some talking points up by then.

Aberlaine · « **Reply #74 on:** January 24, 2011, 05:39:56 PM »

I just got my book and will start reading it tonight.

Nancy

salan · « **Reply #75 on:** January 24, 2011, 06:03:44 PM »

I will pick up my book on Wednesday! Yeah!
Sally

Frybabe · « **Reply #76 on:** January 24, 2011, 07:32:19 PM »

Just started reading. I like it already.

Found some historical maps to reference. Click on the map you want to look at and use the selections below the map to navigate. It is amazing the number of towns listed in Texas by 1870, covering the eastern half at least.

http://alabamamaps.ua.edu/historicalmaps/us_states/texas/index.html

serenesheila · « **Reply #77 on:** January 25, 2011, 02:45:56 AM »

Yesterday, I began reading our book. I was born and raised in California. My ex mother in law was 1/4 Indiian. However, I cannot remember which tribe. During my teens, my paternal grandparents lived in Prescott, Arizona. I spent some time there, and attended an Indian Rodeo.

The summer of 1941, I traveled with my maternal grandparents to Elk City, Oklahoma. I remember Indians selling silver jewelry on the streets, and reservations. Then, after my husband died, in 1989, I attended a week long workshop in Taos, New Mexico. It included a tour of the Pubelo. I was amazed to learn that there were still people living in the Pubelo, with no running water, or electricity.

So, I have had some exposure to Indians of the West. This book is really teaching me new information. I am looking forward to our discussion. Now, back to our book.

Sheila

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #78 on:** January 25, 2011, 09:17:56 AM »

YEAH! We are gathering for our book discussion, and I think we now have two people who have Indian blood, is that correct? Natives! Wonderful, Sheila.

Look at those maps Frybabe found. Wait until Harold sees them. He has lived in Texas all his life and I think will be our authority on the state!

And Sally and Nancy, don't read more than just the first 7 chapters. That way we will all be discussing the same events.

Let's all take the train out west, gaze at the plains (are they still there or have they all been plowed under), those lovely plains such as in the picture in the heading.

"Oh, give me a home where the buffalo roam, where the deer and the antelope play!" I'm not sure that an antelope and a buffalo are the same thing?

But that's what "they" wrote!!!

JoanP · « **Reply #79 on:** January 25, 2011, 09:34:53 AM »

Ella, I just knew that this was going to be a rich discussion as soon as the westerners signed on! And now we have posters with first hand knowledge of Indians. (There's an indication where the name "Indians" came from in these early chapters.) It's difficult NOT to keep reading after Chapter VII - but will try not to.

Here's something else I've been meaning to look up - since you mention the antelope, Ella. The difference between a buffalo and a bison?

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Author Topic: Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C. Gwynne ~ February Book Club Online (Read 141048 times)