Author Topic: Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C. Gwynne ~ February Book Club Online (Read 141054 times)

JoanP · « **Reply #400 on:** February 22, 2011, 12:55:21 PM »

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.

Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C.Gwynne

February Book Club Online

It's an AMERICAN STORY. THE U.S. ARMY, TEXAS RANGERS - SETTLERS- ALL AGAINST THE INDIANS

The year was 1871 and the final destruction of the last of the hostile tribes was just beginning after 250 years of bloody combat. The end of the Civil War had brought many new people to the west searching for land, adventure, glory.

By this time the Indians had seen the buffalo depart, they were cadging food, stealing horses and other useful artifacts or ornamental things from the white man. Some learned to speak Spanish or English. All loved clothing and blankets made of cotton or wool, and the accumulation of white man's artifacts. It was a sort of cultural pollution that could not be stopped.

And then there were the white captives; particularly a white squaw who had lived with the Indians, married, had a son named Quanah who became the last great Comanche War Chief. An epic saga! A fascinating book! Come join us as we discuss the integration of the Indians into a civilized world.

Map of Great Plains - shaded in red

Discussion Schedule

Feb 22 - 28 Chapters 19 -22

Great Plains near Nebraska

Talking Points
Feb. 22-28 ~ Chapters 19-22

1. What was the general military situation as it existed in the Texas Panhandle in the spring of 1875? What was General Sheridan's plan for final victory on the Southern Plains?

2. What popular 1960’s-70’s song came out of a tactical order from General Mackenzie at the end of the battle of Palo Duro Canyon?

3. What was the Comanche situation in the spring of 1876? What options did Quanah have left? Were you surprised at his decision to surrender by leading his people into the reservation? What reception did the band receive from General Mackenzie when they arrived at Fort Sill?

4. How did Quanah measure up as the primary Comanche leader in the protection of Comanche interests in negotiations with the United States, particularly in connection with the forced sale of Indian land under the Dawes Act?

5. How did Quanah react toward new technology coming into general use in the early years of the 20th Century? What misuse of technology almost resulted in Quanah’s death? Discuss some of the incidents growing out of Quanah’s relationship with Theodore Roosevelt
.
6. Discuss Quanah’s role in the establishment of the Native American Church. In Quanah’s words, how did he describe the difference between main stream Christian and Native American worship?

7. Contrast Quanah’s reservation career with that of Sitting Bull, who was also a Fort Sill resident.

Related Links: Interview with author, S.C. Gwynne ; Listen to C-SPAN Interview HERE ;
MAP of Texas; Historical Maps of Texas ; Tribal Map of Oklahoma ;
All about the Red River (Mississippi River) ;
The Die is Cast ;

Discussion Leaders: Ella & Harold

Frybabe · « **Reply #401 on:** February 22, 2011, 04:46:49 PM »

Harald, your comment about Stanley Noyes sent me searching. There is very little out there, but he did publish several books. Two are co-authored. Three of the books listed are poetry. Mr. Noyes must be a very private person. Wikipedia doesn't list him and information about his books are mimimal. Here is what Timberline Press says about him:

Quote

Stanley Noyes -- poet, novelist, and historian -- lives in Santa Fe, NM. His history of the Comanches, Los Comanches, The Horse People, 17512-1845, is a sensitive portrait of those people. He has written two novels and five collections of poetry. Timberline published his Annus Mirabilis: A Peripatetic Calendar and Alles Kaputt. The latter was selected one of the top ten books of 2007 by the Kansas City Star.

http://openlibrary.org/authors/OL226643A/Stanley_Noyes

I also found this. A picture of the elusive Mr. Noyes. Apparently he has an audio out of one of the poetry books.

http://theshop.free-jazz.net/stanley-noyes-reads-vox-audio/shop/audio-poetry/

CallieOK · « **Reply #402 on:** February 22, 2011, 06:35:13 PM »

Hi, Ella. I'm here - still getting things organized around my house.

I'm not sure there is such a thing as a Comanche Reservation any more. The Comanche Nation headquarters are in Lawton. You provided a link for that several messages back - as did I several pages back.

For more articles of interest, do a "Search All Articles" for Comanches and/or Quanah Parker in The Chronicles of Oklahoma http://digital.library.okstate.edu/chronicles/index.html

I'll be back with some specific suggestions as soon as I find that elusive Round Tuit. I haven't forgotten!

Quick correction to the Talking Point Questions: It's Fort Sill - not Still - located in Lawton and still a very active Army Base.
Also: It's Sitting Bull, not Setting.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #403 on:** February 22, 2011, 07:40:23 PM »

Thanks, CALLIE! Corrections made.

I don't know about the Comanche reservation or whatever. Something about a Comanche Complex somewhere.

I'll have to look for it again. One would think there would be something.....

CallieOK · « **Reply #404 on:** February 22, 2011, 08:14:09 PM »

Here's a link to a map of the Indian Nations/Reservations today. The Kiowa/Comanche/Ft. Sill Comanche Nations Tribal area is the green area in the bottom left-hand corner of the state. (Put your cursor over the colors to see the various Tribal Areas. Lawton is located within this Nation - about an hour and a half from Oklahoma City.

http://www.okatlas.org/okatlas/geopolitical/nations.htm

Here's a Wikipedia article that defines American Indian Reservations throughout the USA and how each is governed by a tribe. It also gives information on Life/Culture, Law Enforcement and Gaming (Casinos)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_reservation

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #405 on:** February 22, 2011, 08:56:24 PM »

Great Links - thanks Callie

CallieOK · « **Reply #406 on:** February 22, 2011, 09:22:03 PM »

Thank you, Barb.

Ella, I just finished reading Chapter 22. In Question #7, do you perhaps mean Geronimo?
He was an Apache chief who lived and died at Ft. Sill. He is buried there.
Geronimo's story is just as fascinating as Quanah Parker's - and the Apache tribe's experiences were very different from those of the Comanche.

CallieOK · « **Reply #407 on:** February 22, 2011, 09:56:58 PM »

The Big Pasture (page 310)
http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/B/BI003.html

Teddy Roosevelt's Wolf Hunt (page 312)

http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/R/RO026.html

A newspaper article about TR's visit to Texas and Oklahoma. Scroll down to the section on the right titled "Shows His Teeth" to read about the wolf hunt. Scroll on down to see pictures of the men on the hunt - including Quanah Parker.

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~txhousto/Books/History.of.Houston.County.Texas.by.Aldrich/Roosevelt.pdf

I think I've found all the links I think might be of interest in these last chapters.

O.K. - one more

Quanah Parker's house, Cache OK
http://www.preservationok.org/Quanah_Parker_Star_House.html

Babi · « **Reply #408 on:** February 23, 2011, 08:46:09 AM »

Isa-tai and Quanah, the prophet and the warrior. Always a powerful
combination in stirring up revolt. It was a humiliating outcome, ELLA,
and I was astonished that Isa-tai was able to talk his way out of it
and continue to be an influential part of the leadership.

After the final defeat and the agreement to bring in his tribe, Quanah
is described as “cheerful, helpful and cooperative”.
I can’t help wondering if these are not the qualities that made his Mother so successful among the Comanche. No one can say genes don’t matter. We also see him adapting quickly to the white man’s way of ‘doing business’. What one might call pragmatic. Definitely a persuasive man, a quality he had already developed to a fine art as a leader among the Comanche.

Something that puzzled me: .… During Roosevelt’s visit in Oklahoma, Quanah was riding as part of an honor guard. Fearful that someone might try to shoot Roosevelt, as McKinley had been, Quanah carried a six-shooter. Gwynee writes, “The idea is unimaginable today.” What was unimaginable? I can’t figure out if fear of a possible assassination was unimaginable, or that Quanah would carry a six-shooter as a precaution. Neither seems strange to me. Am I missing something here? Certainly the idea that an attempt might be made to
assassinate a President governs all his security arrangements 'today'.

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #409 on:** February 23, 2011, 09:57:17 AM »

Babi, I think that what would be unimaginable today would be the Secret Service permitting any private individual to carry a loaded pistol in close proximity to the President. Protecting the President is the Secret Service job, and that includes making sure that his host and other people around him are unarmed. I don't know but perhaps not local police?

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #410 on:** February 23, 2011, 10:33:53 AM »

Regarding Indian reservations in Texas: All of the native Texas 18th, 19th century Texas tribes were moved to Indian Territory in the late 19th century by the U.S.. This includes the Comanche, Kiowa, and Withita who of course had an actual presence in Oklahoma. It also includes tribes such as the Caddo, Tonkawa, and Lipan that had little or no connection there.

Today we have only three Indian Reservations in Texas. All three are themselves immigrant tribes from other parts of the U.S.. They are Alabama-Coushatta, Kickapoo, and Tigua. By 1820 there were small bands of some nine prominent Indian tribes including Cherokee from the U.S. east of the Mississippi In Spanish East Texas. Of these only the Kickapoo and Alabama Coushatta remain

Some Texas Tribes just disappeared either the victims of disease or like the hundred plus independent Coahuiltecian bands survivors just assimilated into the South Texas north Mexican population.

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #411 on:** February 23, 2011, 11:16:37 AM »

Frybabe recarding Stanley Noyes, I too noted his background as a poet and fiction writer. That is sort of unusual for a history project. I was not surprised by your research showing him living in Santa Fe. An even more popular spot for poets and artists would be Taos. If I was just retiring today in my early sixties, I would be tempted to resettle there myself.

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #412 on:** February 23, 2011, 11:49:17 AM »

Did you note how Quanah made his decision to go to the Fort Still Reservation? True to his Indian character he went alone to the Top of mesa in quest of a vision from the Great Spirit.There in a trance he saw a wolf howled at him before running off toward the Northeast (the direction of the Fort Still reservation). Then an eagle swooped down at him several times before flying off, agan toward the Northeast. Quanah took these signs as messages from the Great Spirit that he should take hos people tho the reservation

Accordingly the tribe began a slow,deliberate journey on May 6 1875 arriving at the Fort Still Reservation on June 2nd where thy were received in a surprisingly respectful meaner by their past enemy, General Mackenzie .

CallieOK · « **Reply #413 on:** February 23, 2011, 12:48:51 PM »

Fort Sill

http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/f/fo038.html

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #414 on:** February 23, 2011, 02:56:28 PM »

Oh, golly, so much to read! CALLIE, another history - 3 pages of Comanche history on that first site - the tribal map. It would take me a day, but I did note a couple of interesting items: (HAROLD PAY ATTENTION TO THIS QUOTE! AND, OF COURSE, IT'S NOT TRUE, RIGHT?)

"the Comanches were probably the most important tribe of the Great Plains. In spite of this, they have become something of a historical orphan. Texans do not like to talk about them because of the memories are painful. Some writers have deliberately avoided Comanches because it is a little awkward to describe them as victims; and others because Comanche society generally lacked the elaborate ceremony and ritual attractive to anthropologists."

And this: - "Today, many Native American casinos are used as tourist attractions, including as the basis for hotel and conference facilities, to draw visitors and revenue to reservations. Successful gaming operations on some reservations have greatly increased the economic wealth of some tribes, enabling their investment to improve infrastructure, education and health for their people"

Having traveled a great deal in my life, I have never been to a gambling casino. What have I missed?

And I would never, never go to one on an Indian reservation, such a sham, so false!

Would Quanah approve of having his braves dress up and dance around for tourists? Oh, I suppose he would. Why is it that some of us want the legend of the buffalo hunters, the fast horses, the bows and arrows to remain true to the images.

Quanah, as BABI said, was pragmatic, cheerful, gregarious. A leader. His image is on many of the sites about Indians on the web, he is remembered.

There is one instance where Quanah felt defeated; where he and a group of Comanches were allowed to go on a buffalo hunt and there were NO BUFFALO. How heartbreaking. Even typing the word "allowed" I had to choke up a bit. Tough!

Jonathan · « **Reply #415 on:** February 23, 2011, 03:15:28 PM »

And so we come to the end of the story. It's not a happy ending, the way I see it. These fierce warriors who conquered the southern Great Plains are reduced to picking cotton to make ends meet, after being compared to the Romans as Empire managers. And now led off to Fort Sill to 'an aimless, purposeless existence.'p310

I'm struck by the signal that Quanah got from the wolf and the eagle. Wouldn't they traditionally have inspired courage and defiance? Of course things did work out well for him. With the ensuing years Quanah reached, we are told, 'the peak of his power, influence, and celebrity.' Half-breed that he was, he conquered both worlds. That was an achievment.

But the real winners? The land developers, of course.

Jonathan · « **Reply #416 on:** February 23, 2011, 03:33:54 PM »

'because the memories are painful'

There are so many recalled in the book. The most heart-breaking one for me was Isaac Lynn's story:

'...at the house of an old man named Isaac Lynn, whose daughter and son-in-law had recently been brutally murdered by Comanches. When Goodnight entered the house, he found Lynn "sitting before a large log fire in the old-fashioned fireplace, with a long forked dogwood stick, on which was an Indian scalp, thoroughly salted. The hair was tucked inside. As he turned it carefully over the fire, the grease oozed out of it.... He looked back over his shoulder, bade me good morning, and then turned to his work of roasting the scalp. I do not think I ever saw so sad a face." Since his daughter's death he had become a collector of scalps and asked people to bring him any they had. He roasted them so they wouldn't spoil. Like so many people on the bleeding frontier, he was drowning in hatred and grief. page173-4

For the warriors those scalps were the trophies of war.

CallieOK · « **Reply #417 on:** February 23, 2011, 07:43:27 PM »

Ella, Re casinos on Indian Reservations, you posted "And I would never, never go to one on an Indian reservation, such a sham, so false!"

Look at the statistics on this web site.

http://www.500nations.com/Indian_Casinos.asp

And this one for a Casino/Resort in the Choctaw Nation

http://www.winstarworldcasino.com/amenities/winstarworldhotel/

These facilities are owned by the tribe/nation that builds them, runs them and profits from them.

I am NOT a gambler - but this is Big Money for the tribes.

Babi · « **Reply #418 on:** February 24, 2011, 09:00:38 AM »

That, yes, HAROLD. But it appeared to me that as there was no secret
service at that time, the 'honor guard' would have been the persons
expected to protect the President. At one time no one would have that
necessary, but surely that bubble of innocence was burst with the
assassination of McKinley.
To me, what would be unimaginable would be a President out in
public without an armed guard.

I'm not surprised MacKenzie received Quanah respectfully. He knew
from his own experience how intelligent, crafty and competent Quanah
was as a warrior and leader. That merry chase Quanah led MacKenzie,
dodging and back-tracking with an entire village in tow, was a
tactical marvel. The way Quanah put MacKenzie and his troops through hoops trying to catch him and his entire village….I loved it! Quanah‘s ingenuity, foresight, ability to lead and direct his people…amazing..
And Quanah respected MacKenzie as he did no other.
The two were able to form a bond of friendship that was a tribute to
them both.

ELLA, I will leave your first question to Harold's reliable skills.
But I can tell you that the second part is definitely true. For
many reservations there has been very little source of income. The
casinos, providing an additional enticement to tourists, have been
a great source of revenue for them.
I see CALLIE has provided some links for further information. They
should be a great help.

maryz · « **Reply #419 on:** February 24, 2011, 11:57:57 AM »

I'm not a gambler and have never been in a casino. But I've always thought it somewhat fitting that the various tribes have found a way to get back from the Europeans some repayment of what was stolen from them.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #420 on:** February 24, 2011, 04:29:13 PM »

Exactly, JONATHAN -"These fierce warriors who conquered the southern Great Plains are reduced to picking cotton to make ends meet, after being compared to the Romans as Empire managers.

That is what I cannot reconcile in my mind; it somewhat reminds me of the wild animals that we have penned on reservations in Africa and in zoos. But these were men, magnificent men and they were free to live as they had always lived until the white man came.

However, the past must be buried and the Indians (and they are to be congratulated) have survived it all and are doing well on their reservations. They have found a way, as MARY remarked to get some compensation for what was stolen.

However, and I am alone in this opinion I would imagine, if I were an Indian I would want to assimilate into the community; get off of any kind of charity, become independent again as I once was. Of course, I would keep my Indian heritage and be proud of it, but I would not want the white man's scorn or his money.

I would admire them more if such be the case.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #421 on:** February 24, 2011, 04:38:55 PM »

BABI, we have not done justice to Quanah in our discussion have we? Your comment - "Quanah‘s ingenuity, foresight, ability to lead and direct his people…amazing.."

Yes, THIS WAS A MAN - Chapter 21. He is to be much admired.

Do you think our author gave equal time (words, I should say) to the white settlers. Somehow I think he leaned more in favor of the Indians in this book? I can't think of the word I want - was he balanced in his views?

Do you think revenge is the right word to describe the killing of both the settlers and the Indians?

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #422 on:** February 24, 2011, 05:14:13 PM »

here is one Native American who did live a life as an individual and achieved what many can only dream of achieving.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Herrington

Lack of business understanding, education make it difficult to successfully live off the reservation...There are a couple of movies within the last 10 years of young teens leaving the reservation - sort of an Kerouac On The Road view of their experience.

Quote

1924: Native-American citizenship.
Congress passes legislation extending United States citizenship to all Indians born in the United States. Many states continue to deny Native-Americans the right to vote using the same kinds of legal fictions, violence, and economic retaliation that is used to deny the vote to Blacks, Latinos, and Asians.

Quote

1945-1960: GIs fight for civil rights.
   When Black, Latino, and Indian GIs return from the battlefields of WWII (and later Korea), they demand that all American citizens have the right to vote regardless of race. They had fought and died for democracy abroad, yet they cannot vote at home. (One out of every eight American GIs was an African-American; Latinos and Native-Americans also made up significant portions of the armed forces, which for the most part were organized on a segregated basis.)

   On local, state, and federal levels GIs fight against the laws, customs, and oppression denying them the vote and other civil rights. Before WWII the NAACP numbered around 50,000 members, in the post-war years it swells ten times to over 500,000.

   But the racists who hold economic power and political office — particularly in the U.S. Senate — are too strong. Most legislative remedies are blocked and few court cases are successful. For the most part, the GI movements are defeated and suppressed. Many GIs who had fought to free Europe from Nazi tyranny find themselves imprisoned for demanding the right to vote, and others are viciously murdered — often by police and sheriffs.

Quote

1948: State laws denying the vote to Native-Americans are overturned.
In one of the post-war period's few successful legal challenges, the Federal courts overturn the last state laws (Maine, Arizona, New Mexico) that explicitly prevent Indians from voting. Violence, economic retaliation, and different kinds of legal tricks continue to be used to prevent Native-Americans from voting.

Quote

1966: Voting Rights Act takes effect.
But though the legal barriers to voter registration are weakened or overturned by the Voting Rights Act, terror and economic retaliation continue to be used for a few more years against citizens-of-color who try to register to vote, particularly Blacks in the South and Latinos and Native-Americans in the Southwest. The Civil Rights Movement continues the fight, with the "Meredith Mississippi March Against Fear," and mass direct-action campaigns in towns such as Grenada and Natchez Mississippi.

And then Land...Land tenure in Indian country is complicated because of laws, dated to the 19th century, putting millions of acres of tribal and individual Indian land under the trusteeship of the Interior department's Bureau of Indian Affairs. These lands cannot be sold, used as collateral, easily inherited, or managed productively. Not all of the country's 550-plus recognized tribes have a reservation — some tribes have more than one reservation, some share reservations, while others have none. In 1988, Congress passed the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act, which recognized the right of Native American tribes to establish gambling and gaming facilities on their reservations as long as the states in which they are located have some form of legalized gambling.

List of Native American Reservations in the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_reservations_in_the_United_States

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #423 on:** February 24, 2011, 05:19:36 PM »

Ella asks: "the Comanches were probably the most important tribe of the Great Plains. In spite of this, they have become something of a historical orphan. Texans do not like to talk about them ------

So far as the 19th Century is concern, I agree the Comanche were the most important tribe of the Great Plains. By most important, I mean the most known, the most written and talked about, the most feared; and that sort of thing. Do we avoid talking about them today? I don’t know that we do and this discussion is certainly an example of current interest and a current readiness to talk about them in a serious, factual, and respectful manner. If other ethnic groups seem to get more publicity perhaps it is a matter of population numbers. . According to the Comanche Nation site the number on Comanche enrollees today is a relatively small 14,557. In comparison the number of Irish Americans, and German American are in the 10’s of million. No wonder that they get more media time

Continuing: but Texans do not like to talk about them because of the memories are painful. Some writers have deliberately avoided Comanche because it is a little awkward to describe them as victims.

Of course the cruelties, the torture, the rape and pillage in their vilest form do not make for pleasant conversation. But the Comanche were not the only primitive groups acting in this repulsive manner. It was common not just with many other North and South American tribe, but in primitive times on every continent worldwide. As far as I’m concern we all must bear the burden of our past that we might, in the words of the poet, “ascend on stepping stones of our dead selves to higher things.”

Frybabe · « **Reply #424 on:** February 24, 2011, 06:27:49 PM »

There are many successful Native American enterprises. In fact the SBA has a There are a number of art related Native American websites. This one is a recording studio.
http://www.cimsound.com/

I am trying to find information about energy companies that are NA owned. I vaguely remember a TV program some years back that included a section on energy enterprises on NA land. I thought I remembered a shot of an energy plant, but don't remember much else. I suppose they participate in oil/gas drilling and leasing, but I am curious if they are involved in Wind or Solar generation. What I found so far is this, http://www.motherearthnews.com/energy-matters/henry-red-cloud-renewable-energy.aspx As his name indicates, he is a decendant of THE Red Cloud.

Did you know that Famous Dave's Barbeque is NAI owned? Dave Anderson is a member of the Choctaw/Chippewa tribes. Then there is T. David Petite, who is a member of the Fond du Lac Band of Lake Superior Chippewa Tribe. He holds 30 patents in things having to do with wireless technology. He also founded the Native American Inventors Association. http://nativeamericaninventor.com/bios.html

When I have more time, I intend to continue my explorations into NAI owned businesses. Just nosey, I guess.

CallieOK · « **Reply #425 on:** February 24, 2011, 07:39:15 PM »

Not nosey, Frybabe - just curiously interested. I tend to shoot off in all sorts of directions looking for information on this and that. Maybe that's why I come up with so many links.

Someone mentioned stories from the settlers' points of view. I don't remember if I learned about it here - but I am currently reading "The Captured" by Scott Zesch, who grew up in Mason County Texas and graduated from Texas A&M and Harvard Law School. He became curious about white captives when he found the grave of his relative who was a child captive of the Comanches - and survived but was "Indianized" (author's term).
The jacket blurb says "'The Captured' is a true account of what settlers considered a "fate worse than death" - and the personal story of Adolph Korn and eight other children abducted by Comanches and Apaches in the Texas Hill Country.

It might be good follow-up reading for participants when this discussion closes.

Jonathan · « **Reply #426 on:** February 24, 2011, 10:12:59 PM »

Callie, I want to thank you, and the others, for all the informative links. I believe you were the first with the comanchenation.com link. Very interesting. And the marvellous pictorial links to the Texas landscapes, and the historical archives. Now what can you find on 'peyote', and 'peyote religion'? I was struck by reading that Quanah 'became one of the leading religious figures in the Comanche tribe and the driving force behind the establishment of the peyote religion among the Plains Indians.'

And on the next page (314) the author quotes Wallace and Hoebel: 'It (the peyote religion) was probably the most important cultural contribution of Comanches to the lives of other American Indians.'

Too little. Too late, I think. The image I get of them in the book is that everyone got in their way. Indians as well as whites. Every expedition mounted against them included numerous Indians from other tribes as trackers and allies, eager to avenge themselves on their common enemy.

It has occurred to me that perhaps the reason the Comanches took so many captives, was the crazy notion that they were offering them a chance at a better life. Cynthia Ann would be a good example. Of course, for the settlers it was a nightmarish prospect.

Harold has posted: 'Some writers have deliberately avoided Comanche because it is a little awkward to describe them as victims.'

Did you intend it as an understatement, Harold? I admire Gwynne for taking them on. Why does he give the Comanches chief billing in this tremendous historical drama? Is he carrying the white man's burden of guilt, also a part of 'manifest destiny,' to ride roughshod over the enemy...just like the Comanche?

CallieOK · « **Reply #427 on:** February 25, 2011, 12:38:41 AM »

Jonathan,

I've never been that curious about hallucinatory drugs. Now, if you'd like to know about Brush Arbor Revivals, I can tell you about going to one in the Choctaw Nation, not far from where I grew up.

Try Googling "Native American Church".

In this discussion, I've tried to share links about things in the book that pertain to Oklahoma - most of which I've either seen or am at least slightly familiar with.

A personal story about assimilation and keeping tradition.

My husband and I arrived the evening before a conference he was to attend at a state lodge. There was a Choctaw Pow-Wow being held in the lodge ballroom and the public could go in to watch the dancing.

One young man was really catching everyone's eye with his traditional costume - similar to the ones seen in this link: http://www.crazycrow.com/photos/native-american-mens-northern-traditional-20.php

At one point, he turned and on the back of his heavily beaded footwear, we clearly read the word "Nike"!!!!

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #428 on:** February 25, 2011, 05:48:33 AM »

Callie sorry didn't mean to repeat a link that you already had shared - I was so caught up in the story I just shared what I was reading.

Yes, we have an annual pow wow here in Austin held every November - last year I thought it was particularly moving when all the living veterans of all the wars came in and danced each wearing an identical red blanket with a black stripe - the blanket was folded and covered their entire body draped front and back to the floor - there were veterans from the recent wars without limbs, on crutches and old men from WWII in wheel chairs pushed by their sons who were veterans - one family had 3 generations of veterans.

It is the beat of those drums that gets into your soul - the auditorium they dance in easily holds 5 of those giant drums and then outside there is a fairground atmosphere of booths for food and art work. Music and handmade musical instruments like flutes is big and then there is a story telling tent and a tent where some of the stories are performed or sung. While my daughter still lived in Austin I used to bring the grandboys - they would be spell bound and then the first time they went up to a costumed Indian and spoke to him they were in awe. I cannot keep away so I have gone alone several years and enjoyed myself. There is always someone to talk to.

Babi · « **Reply #429 on:** February 25, 2011, 08:29:17 AM »

It would be great if it could be done, but it must be very difficult
to assimilate into a different culture without losing one's heritage.
Especially for the following generations. Even if an individual could
do so, it is doubtful that their children would.
I think Gwynne was fair in pointing out the flaws and sins on both
sides, but, yes, I do feel his sympathy lies more with the Indians.
But history is full of the stories of people shunted aside or destroyed
by invaders. Whole populations have been forced been extreme danger
or climate changes to either move or die.

Thanks for that excellent review of civil rights, BARB.

I liked that 'Nike' story, CALLIE. Most Indian tribes did seem quite
practical about using useful 'white man' items. Metal made better arrow
points than flint, right?

CallieOK · « **Reply #430 on:** February 25, 2011, 09:52:47 AM »

Barb, I apologize if it sounded as if I were criticizing a repeat of a link. Finding and sharing information is always A Good Thing. I wish I knew how to make the link an informative title instead of just the URL.

The Red Earth Festival is held annually in Oklahoma City. I have never had the privilege of attending but the pictures and articles about the dancing competition and the honorees are wonderful.

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #431 on:** February 25, 2011, 10:42:54 AM »

Regarding Jonathan Message #426. Actually this was from Ella Message #414. 'Some writers have deliberately avoided Comanche because it is a little awkward to describe them as victims.” She asked me to comment on it and my message #423 was my answer noting that I took 19th century Comanche war practices simply as the acts of a very primitive society really no better or no worst that the acts of many primitive societies in their day worldwide. They are unpleasant to talk about but that should not require that they be ignored.

I do believe that The Comanche have a valid claim to be the most important 19th Century Tribe. Certainly to 19th Century Texans they were. Perhaps in the Northwest another tribe would have been the popular choice.

Regarding the post Civil War U.S. Military Command, I think In Texas General Mackenzie was far superior to Custer in the northWest. I guess that fact is rather obvious since Mackenzie won, and Custer and the 7th Calvary units under his command at Little Bighorn ended up dead.

Jonathan · « **Reply #432 on:** February 25, 2011, 02:14:56 PM »

"Some writers have deliberately avoided Comanches because it is a little awkward to describe them as victims; and others because Comanche society generally lacked the elaborate ceremony and ritual attractive to anthropologists."

Thanks, Harold, for clearing up the attribution foul up. I should look more closely at the text. I see now that Ella got the quote from one of Callie's links. Looking at it again I find it interesting that Comanches have not received the attention other tribes have because of the missing 'ceremony and ritual' in the Comanche lifestyle. Callie's crazycrow.com link gives a good idea of the eyecatching glory of the modern/traditional pow wows. Isn't the Fancy Shawl Dance stunning?

Quote: 'Fancy Shawl Dancers create the illusion of a butterfly floating through the air by dancing light on their feet and twirling around with their shawl extended like butterfly wings.'

I doubt if the Bolshoi Ballet can do better than that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but America is not about assimilation so much as finding a better medicine. Or finding a better weapon. I'm not sure. Haven't successive waves of immigration changed America beyond recognition?

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #433 on:** February 25, 2011, 05:15:48 PM »

What great remarks and so many - THANK ALL OF YOU FOR YOUR INTEREST IN THE BOOK AND THE DISCUSSION! IT'S BEEN A REAL TREAT FOR HAROLD AND MYSELF.

CALLIE, we all appreciated those links. I read most of them and the marvelous pictures!

And you have been to some of the pow-wow's that the Indians held? Why do they have these? Do they make money by charging tourists or is it something their tribe wants to do for recreation? What costumes (by Nike, hahaha!) I know they used deerskin and buffalo hides for clothing in the 1800's and I would suppose the women - if they could spare the time from those numerous chores - would have dyed them for ceremonies.

Dancing competitions! The Bolshoi Ballet! What are we talking about here.

Thanks, BARBARA, for telling us about the pow-wow's (where did that word come from?) you've been to - sad to see some of those veterans I'm sure. And those drums? Did the Comanches have drums and dances? Somehow it doesn't fit, but I know somewhere Gwynne talks about them singing and having fun. And why shouldn't they?

Quanah had all those wives and children, grandchildren - he probably had pow-wows just within his own family.

You think, BABI, that the Indian would have lost their heritage? No ancestry.com for them? No family reunions? They seemed, as you said,to want the white man's goods, but not his way of life.

JONATHAN, we have been told by historians that immigration has helped to make America a great melting pot, we get the good, as well as the bad, of other places, other countries; we have benefited. However, I'm not informed enough to debate the issue. And what of Canada, England? The Empire Builders! I've just finished a wonderful book - WEST OF THE NIGHT by Beryl Markham - the second time I have read it. And England was King of the world. The natives were ignorant and treated as servants; it was Memsahib and Sah every meal! And the white people in Kenya were all from England.

And I wonder, sometimes, why the natives of those countries eventually became independent and our natives are on reservations?

We must google the peyote religion; how nice to leave reality for a short hour or two in a church, mind you!

CallieOK · « **Reply #434 on:** February 25, 2011, 05:24:45 PM »

Ella, we just happened upon the pow wow I mentioned. That's the only one I have ever seen.

Maybe Barb will tell us more about the one in Austin TX that she's attended several times.

As to "Why?"....Guess What! Here's a link!

http://www.elements.nb.ca/theme/ethics/pow/wow.htm

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #435 on:** February 25, 2011, 05:36:39 PM »

Good link, CALLIE, and I quote:

"When early European explorers first saw these sacred dances, they thought "Pau Wau" referred to the whole dance. Actually, its Aboriginal definition refers to the medicine people and spiritual leaders. As more Nations learned the English language, they accepted the "Pow-Wow" definition."

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #436 on:** February 25, 2011, 06:15:47 PM »

Little time today - I am going to put up here a bunch of links to past pow wow's in Austin - some are Youtube with video -

http://www.yapclub.com/austin/events/5844/18th-annual-austin-powwow.aspx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl1HXi5eEAc&NR=1 2008

http://ralphbarrera.wordpress.com/2008/11/01/17th-annual-austin-powwow-a-site-to-see/

http://photoblog.statesman.com/19th-annual-austin-powwow-and-american-indian-heritage-festival

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwfuAdGfaAc&feature=related2009 Men's Chicken Dance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr1N7rZDTOk&feature=related2007 Men's Duck and Dive

http://insightphotography.smugmug.com/Events/13th-Annual-Austin-Powwow/280446_8yjvq/1/12426049_KQR3V#11127344_6u49Y

http://www.manataka.org/page828.html 2011 National Pow Wow Calendar

And here from the Comanche site is their scheduled Pow wows with their explanation of the Pow wow

http://www.comanchenation.com/powwows/

This is not Austin however, I love the women's Shawl Dance - folks, get your heart pumping and try this in your living room for the 6 plus minutes of this Video - the stamina is amazing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxE7TQGXAjQ&NR=1

JoanP · « **Reply #437 on:** February 25, 2011, 10:07:59 PM »

The Comanches were horsemen, as we know. When the buffalo disappeared, so was their way of life.. "They became owners of property, something they had never wanted and had never really understood."

Did you ever feel that Quanah had sold out - left aside his proud and lofty principles - as he joined Teddy Roosevelt in his buffalo-hunting parties? I wasn't prepared for that. Did it appear that he was thinking only of himself and his large family, as he became a rich man?

We're told that the Comanches became ranchers. Is that the case today? How have the Indians fared in the last century? I see quite a few casinos in Oklahoma, Callie. Do they really benefit the Indians on the reservations? I've heard conflicting reports. No doubt the casinos make money, but do the communities in which they are located, share the wealth?

Not so long ago, SeniorLearn's predecessor, SeniorNet, focussed on the needs of a number of Indian Reservations -
Here's an artilce describing the initiative - I'll try to show you how to make the kind of link you mentioned you'd like to learn. Will leave a space after the [ or else it won't show here. You should NOT leave any spaces [ ], okay? Here's what you do...

[ url=http://www.rlnn.com/ArtJune07/LLBandAchievementCtrOpens.html ] SeniorNet's Achievement Centers on Indian Reservations. [ /url ]
If you remove all those spaces I left above you will see this-

SeniorNet's Achievement Centers on Indian Reservations.

From the above article -

Quote

"The first center opened in September at Blackfeet Nation in Browning, Mont. The centers are designed to bring computer technology access and education to low-income and remote American Indian reservations across the United States.

The center is a positive step for people of all ages on the reservation to move toward economic self-sufficiency, said David Goodman, economic development officer with the AIEDF and Leech Lake Band of Ojibwe member.

“The Native American population living in the rural and low-income communities are still left behind … as the nation moves forward in the areas of computer technology,” he said.

In an effort to promote reading among the reservation’s K-12 students, SeniorNet’s online book club has also organized a book donation program in which it will procure and coordinate the donation and shipment of books to the center."

That last paragraph was US...our online book club. Several in this discussion took part in these book drives...do you remember?

Now I'm going to get to work reading the links you've provided...

CallieOK · « **Reply #438 on:** February 25, 2011, 10:21:18 PM »

JoanP, Thank you for the "link lesson". The minute I saw it, I remembered being taught how in the old SeniorNet - but I had forgotten!

I don't know enough about the various Indian Nation governments to know how the casino profits are divided.

Neither do I know enough about the general economic status of Oklahoma tribal members to compare with situations in other states.

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #439 on:** February 25, 2011, 11:53:18 PM »

2. What popular 1960’s-70’s song came out of a tactical order from General Mackenzie at the end of the battle of Palo Duro Canyon?

Don't any or you remember the incident in Chapter 19 that led me to this question. This was an incident at at the conclusion of the Red River War. It was the result of a certain order from Mackenzie. I really believe this incident gave rise to an interesting and colorful popular song that all of you are sure to remember. Am I going to have to tell you the answer? S.C. Gwynne in his last sentence of the last paragraph about this incident gives a descriptive clew; though he never mentions the song name he seems seems to be referring to this song..

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