Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C. Gwynne ~ February Book Club Online

[CallieOK]

Empire of the Summer Moon  by S.C.Gwynne

February Book Club Online  

It's an AMERICAN STORY.  THE U.S. ARMY, TEXAS RANGERS - SETTLERS- ALL AGAINST THE INDIANS The year was 1871 and the final destruction of the last of the hostile tribes was just beginning after 250 years of bloody combat.  The end of the Civil War had brought many new people to the west searching for land, adventure, glory. By this time the Indians had seen the buffalo depart, they were cadging food, stealing horses and other useful artifacts or ornamental things from the white man.   Some learned to speak Spanish or English.  All loved clothing and blankets made of cotton or wool, and the  accumulation of white man's artifacts.  It was a sort of cultural pollution that could not be stopped. And then there were the white captives; particularly a white squaw who had lived with the Indians, married, had a son named Quanah who became the last great Comanche War Chief.  An epic saga!  A fascinating  book! Come join us as we discuss the integration of the Indians into a civilized world.

Map of Great Plains - shaded in red

Discussion Schedule Feb  22 - 28  Chapters 19 -22

Great Plains near Nebraska

       

   

Talking Points
Feb. 22-28 ~ Chapters 19-22

1.  What was the general military situation as it existed in the Texas Panhandle in the spring of 1875?   What was General Sheridan's plan for final victory on the Southern Plains?

2.  What popular 1960’s-70’s song came out of a tactical order from General Mackenzie at the end of the battle of Palo Duro Canyon?

3.  What was the Comanche situation in the spring of 1876?  What options did Quanah have left?   Were you surprised at his decision to surrender by leading his people into the reservation?  What reception did the band receive from General Mackenzie when they arrived at Fort Sill?

4.  How did Quanah measure up as the primary Comanche leader in the protection of Comanche interests in negotiations with the United States,  particularly in  connection with the forced sale of Indian land under the Dawes   Act?

5.  How did Quanah react toward new technology coming into general use in the early years of the 20th Century?  What misuse of technology almost resulted in Quanah’s death?  Discuss some of the incidents growing out of Quanah’s relationship with Theodore Roosevelt
.
6.  Discuss Quanah’s  role in the establishment of the Native American Church.  In Quanah’s words, how did he describe the difference between main stream Christian and Native American worship?

7.  Contrast Quanah’s reservation career with that of Sitting Bull,  who was also a Fort Sill resident.  


Related Links: Interview with author, S.C. Gwynne ; Listen to C-SPAN Interview HERE ;
MAP of Texas; Historical Maps of Texas ; Tribal Map of Oklahoma ;
All about the Red River (Mississippi River) ;
The Die is Cast ;

 

Discussion Leaders:  Ella & Harold

--------------------------------------

CAllie's post:

Harold,  I thought of this when I read it - and should have come directly to the computer....but I didn't!

Is it "Ghost Riders In The Sky"?

[HaroldArnold]

Calleinok you got it.  We might wonder if this was in the Song writers mind when "Ghost Riders in the sky "was written but it sure seems that song was in Gwinnes mind when in Chapter 19 he wrote "Mackenzie's slaughter of the Comanche horses also spawned a legend .  On certain nights it is said a phantom herd can be seen galloping through the canyon riderless their spectral manes flying in the wind."

Regarding other heading comments llook at the one concerning the Comanche's adaptation to new technology.  Do you suppose Quanah and those ex Comanche warriors drove their Automobiles like they drove their horses?  

Quanah himself also almost died as the result of sleeping with an un-vented natural gas heater.  
during the 1930's until the 50's we used them in our homes, but in our house rule one was never leave them on while sleeping.  

[Babi]

 MacKenzie was one of those rare officers who could learn from their
enemies and alter tactics as needed. Most career officers tended to
do things 'the army way', as they had been taught, irregardless of
how useless that was.

And I wonder, sometimes, why the natives of those countries eventually became independent and our natives are on reservations?

I can think of two contributing factors for that, ELLA. Countries like
India had a unity and identity, a culture and a social framework that
the scattered tribes of native Americans did not have. That remained
mostly intact throughout the years of dominance by Europeans. Secondly, the smaller tribal groups simply did not survive to reach the more 'enlightened' times of respect for the independence of other cultures. Such as it is.

 I don't think Quanah was thinking only of himself, JOANP. He was
always very protective of his tribe and his people. He shared his
wealth with any of them who needed it, to the extent that at his
death he had almost nothing left.
     I think that Fed. Investigator, Francis Leupp, summed up Quanah
quite well.  “Quanah might have been a leader and a governor in any
circle where fate might have cast him---it is in his blood.” 

[Ella Gibbons]

I've only a few minutes, back later, but have read the posts.

I thought the song might have been RED RIVER VALLEY - see the history of it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_River_Valley_(song)

And now you can listen to this old song - it used to play on radio for soap operas I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezJkRDQmL2Y

[Ella Gibbons]

This is lovely, with pictures:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKM4bn4kS-0

[Ella Gibbons]

"Did you ever feel that Quanah had sold out - left aside his proud and lofty principles - as he joined Teddy Roosevelt in his buffalo-hunting parties? "- JOANP

Yes, I did.  But as Gwynne remarked: their new lives on the reservations -  "By Comanche standards, it was an aimless, purposeless existence."

Quanah did try into his old age to improve the lot of the children, the tribe;the fought the laws of the white man.  What could he do?

"No doubt the casinos make money, but do the communities in which they are located, share the wealth? - JOANP

How would we ever know - here's an article from TIME MAGAZINE - an investigation

http://pactoregon.org/time-1.html#WHEEL_OF_MISFORTUNE

A paragraph:

"The White Man Wins Again.  While most Indians continue to live in poverty, many non-Indian investors are extracting hundreds of millions of dollars - sometimes in violation of legal limits - from casinos they helped establish, either by taking advantage of regulatory loopholes or cutting backroom deals.  More than 90% of the contracts between tribes and outside gaming-management companies operate with no oversight.  That means investors' identities are often secret, as are their financial arrangements and their share of the revenue."

Good questions, JOANP, and I do remember all that you posted about Seniornet.  THANK YOU FOR THAT!

[Ella Gibbons]

BABI - I was thinking more about the African nations that became independent after WWII.  Do you think they had a culture or were they just many tribes, such as our own Indians?

[CallieOK]

Bits and Pieces

This morning, I went to the monthly Volunteer meeting at The Oklahoma History Center.  The speaker was Margaret Roach Wheeler, a Chickasaw weaver.

Her ancestors came to Indian Territory from Mississippi on The Trail of Tears.  She grew up with varied tribal influences because her father was a teacher for the Bureau of Indian Affairs at Indian schools in South Dakota, Montana, Arizona and Washington State.
Her designs began as wall art and gradually moved into clothing.  She gets her inspiration from old photos of Indians, sculpture, paintings and tribal stories.  She combines the modern with the tradition.  For instance, a blanket or buffalo robe wrapped around a man in a picture or painting may become a cape.
Here is the web site for her Mahota Handweavers business. I thought you might like to read about her and see some of the designs.

 http://www.margaretroachwheeler.com/

She showed us slides and explained her inspiration for almost all of the designs in "The Mahotan Collection" and brought four of them to display.
***  

On page 312, the book mentions Quanah Parker appearing in the first two-reel western movie ever made - which was filmed near his home in Cache OK.
Not too long ago, the Kiowa tepee (an original) used in the movie was discovered in the Oklahoma Historical Society Collection. (Until the current History Center was completed, this collection was scattered in warehouses around OKC).  It had been in the collection since 1929 but was thought to be a wagon cover because it was folded up.
It is painted canvas and is in the process of being restored.

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh my beautiful Callie - forwarded the link on to my sisters...

[Frybabe]

I agree with you Ella. I would have thought that Red River Valley fit the bill.
Ghost Riders in the Sky is about a ghost herd of cattle and their equally ghostly drovers. However, I missed the clue so I will have to go back and take a look at it. Ghost Riders is one of my all time favorite Western songs. I have at least three versions of it.

[maryz]

I just turned on Book TV, and got in the middle of a talk by A. J. Langguth, author of Driven West:  Andrew Jackson and the Trail of Tears to the Civil War].

Click here for the Book TV site for it.

[Frybabe]

Okay, Harold and Callie, it's all your fault. I'm up on YouTube listening to every Ghost Riders version they have.

This one is very good. Not familiar with the group, though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V23uVjYSOok&feature=related

[BarbStAubrey]

Ha ha - their costumes are hilarious - reading the comments it fits - evidently they are known for their comedy - they do have a mean violin player - can't nail the accent - sounds mid-west to me - I wondered if they were part of that group that later expanded to a dozen from Indiana University - although they look older - and yet, a few of the No Chasers are in their late 30s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6Cit0pi--M&playnext=1&list=PLC526E23F194116CC

Stay tuned for thier version of Lion King - it is a riot

[Frybabe]

Has anyone put up this link?

http://www.legendsofamerica.com/tx-redriverwar.html

[BarbStAubrey]

It is that expression 'The Red River War' that is still used as part of the fun every fall to describe when UT plays OK

[CallieOK]

Go Sooners!   

I think I remember Frankie Laine singing "Ghost Riders..." but that was probably in the 50's.

[BarbStAubrey]

 

[Babi]

 You're right, ELLA; the African countries were largely tribal. I
think that the difference there is that European settlers weren't
trying to move in on them in huge numbers. The white man was just
there to get what profit he could out of it. When the losses
outweighed the profits, or when public sentiment grew heavily
against them; they went home. The local population was still mostly
in place.

  I don't remember Frankie Laine singing "Ghost Riders.."  The most
popular one I recall was Vaughn Monroe.

    I did some checking and there are apparently some 12 major religions among Native Americans. It was news to me to learn of Quanah’s role in the establishment of  the peyote cult as  a popular religion among the Plains Indians.  Here are the twelve native religions.
Of course, Christianity is included today.
 Longhouse Religion, Waashat Religion, Dreamer Religion, Indian Shaker Religion, Drum Religion, Earth Lodge Religion, Ghost Dance Religion,
Bole-Maru Religion, Dream Dance,  Feather Religion, Peyote Religion
  I don't know how complete this list is...and of course the term
'religion' is ours.  I'm assuming the Indians would have referred to it
as 'medicine', their source of personal and tribal power and strength.
 

[HaroldArnold]

Ella thank you for The song “Red River Valley.”   That is a real golden oldddddddie.  I’m adding this one to our apartment sing along book right now.

[HaroldArnold]

>BABI - I was thinking more about the African nations that became independent after WWII.  Do you think they had a culture or were they just many tribes, such as our own Indians? Ella #446

Regarding this Question:  I think the tribal structure in Africa in many ways did have considerable similarity to the American Indian tribal structure.  On both continents there were many independent tribes speaking their own language with their own particular culture.  Though  through the year’s, there was considerable European immigration to Africa, I don’t think it ever took on the large overwhelming numbers that settled in the Americas.  Also in the late 18th century, the  independence of the U.S. created a strong national European state attracting a century of great European immigration.  This did not happen in Africa.

In Africa, Europeans came to extract resources enlisting African labor.  It might appear that African labor was more adapt to employment in European enterprise than the Indians were in the Americas.  Finally the question came to a head a century later than in the Americans when in the post WW II world, European opinion had become more ready to recognize the rights of native populations as well as their increasing educational abilities. These factors coupled with the economic and military weakness of European colonial powers at the end of WW II led rather easily to the end of Colonialism and the Independence of the many African cultures.

[Jonathan]

Ghost Riders in the Sky?

Certainly. But then, for me, this book has left the whole landscape of Texas thronged with ghosts. Not least, of course, Chief Quanah, who makes such a colorful entrance on page 11, 'on a coal black racing pony,'and goes out riding with Teddy Roosevelt at the latter's inaugural parade, making what seems like an easy transition from bloodthirsty Comanche to born-again Christian, talking to Jesus. The Prince of War powwowing with the Prince of Peace!

'Did you ever feel that Quanah had sold out - left aside his proud and lofty principles ?'

Good question. No. We are reassured by the author that Quanah also remained true to himself. 'the quintessential Quanah: hustling, demanding, always looking for an angle, always negotiating yet unwilling to compromise his own principles.'

'I used to be a bad man....' Was that said with contrition? Did his heart bleed for the ghosts he left in his wake?

[JeanClark]

I dont think that Quanah sold out, he was intelligent enough to see that the indan way was very rapidly disappearing. He was a survivalist above all else, the same trait that saved his mother when she was captured.As far as the rituals of the commanches go, they were such a mixture of races almost like an entirelly new entity, negroes, adoptees and captured children so that they had to work around these different peoples . They were also very busy into the conquering and destroy modes so didnt have the time to set up a series of religious rituals.

[JeanClark]

How did the author know that Quanah remained true to himself when all of his info is seacond and third hand?

[Ella Gibbons]

We are approaching the end of our book; the end of our discussion.  It's just been great, hasn't it?

Overall, how would you rate the book?   Well, let's say on a scale of 1-10 (ten, of course, being the highest). 

What would have made this a better book?  What should have been left out?

What one character most impressed you?

Taking into consideration the fact that Gwynne is an award-winning journalist, do you feel that he was true to his subject; that all of what he has written is based in fact?

He does have impressive notes to each chapter and his bibliography is just unbelievable!

Did you learn any new facts?

Would you recommend the book to a friend?

Again, I want to thank all of you for your interest,  it was so much fun to read all your comments.  A good time, a good discussion! 

Let's meet again!

[CallieOK]

This has been a fascinating discussion and I enjoyed it very much.  I knew the "basics" about Cynthia Ann and Quanah Parker and "basically" where the Comanche's early territory was - but I had never gotten into the details.  So I learned a lot about local/regional history.

I have recommended the book to several friends who are also volunteers at The Oklahoma History Center - and plan to donate a copy to the Volunteer Library if there isn't one already there.

As I've mentioned, I'm reading "The Captured: The True Story of Abduction By Indians On The Texas Frontier" (published 2004) and I heartily recommend it to those of you who would like to do some supplemental reading on this subject.

Gwynne cites this book in his Bibliography (page 350).

While checking for this possibility, I discovered a sentence on Page 344 that might relate to the question "which came first in Gwynne's interest - Quanah Parker or the Comanches" .  
He says:  "The section in Walter Prescott Webb's 1931 masterpiece The Great Plains is what got me interested in the subject [of Comanche history] in the first place."
I think Gwynne may have used Quanah Parker as a "hook" to draw reader's interest in an historical account.

It worked for me!

Thank you, Ella and Harold for opening this discussion.  I hope I didn't bore everyone to pieces with all the links!

[Frybabe]

I thoroughly enjoyed this discussion and the links everyone posted. As I cruise around in Gutenberg's free e-library, I find myself looking for volumes about the Indians. I downloaded one, forgot the name, which had many first hand accounts of early settlers, including the Indian raids. TBR later.

[BarbStAubrey]

yes this discussion was in-depth and lots of good sharing - my interest has been with the Cherokee - the books and poets of today that I felt the need to research the history of the tribes were those in the Cherokee Nation. One cultural difference that when I learned of it I thought the most fascinating thing I ever heard - the Cherokee before they adopted White Man's ways had two types of villages - a white or a red village - the white village was all about peace and no one could harm anyone in a white village where as a red village was all about aggression and war and those villages were the warriors of the Cherokee The duality among the Cherokee was not good versus bad until they tried to understand and adapt the white man's terminology and thinking - for the Cherokee the duality in the universe was peace versus aggression.

And so not having read much about the Comanche I wondered if they too were adapting to what they realized the white man  understood when they labeled themselves bad - I wonder if they were  using the white man's logic of  good and bad to define their behavior to a white man.

Thanks Ella and Harold - a wonderful experience.

[HaroldArnold]

Let me take this opportunity to thank each and every one of you who have participated here in this discussion.  I think it has come across quite well, and this is because of the scholarly study and enthusiastic input of you participants.  Hopefully we can come together again later this year maybe in the summer or fall to discuss another nonfiction title.  

While the title candidates are open for discussion, let me take this opportunity to ask if there might be interest in another Texas History title.  The book that I think might be of general Interest is The LaSalle Expedition to Texas by Henri Joutel, edited by William C. Foster, published by the Texas State Historical Society.  

Joutel was a La Salle Lieutenant who was with La Salle and the Expedition from its organizing in France in 1684,  He tell of the sailing, the land fall in Hispaniola, the search for the Mississippi, the landing in Texas, Life at Fort St Louis, the many hardships and problems ,  La Salle’s decision to abandon the fort, the assignation of La Salle The long trek  to the Mississippi including the stops at Caddo and other Indian villages, and finally after a 9 month journey the arrival at the Quapaw village on the Mississippi at the mouth of the Arkansas River.  Joutel and some of the 8 Survivors returned to France to write this account which constitutes all that is know about this interesting attempt to make Texas French.  It succeeded only in making the French one of the six Flags that have flown over Texas.

Click the following link for more information on this book.   http://www.amazon.com/Salle-Expedition-Texas-Journal-1684-1687/dp/0876111657/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1298863810&sr=1-1

[Babi]

 I have learned so much from this book that I didn't know, despite the
fact that I'm Texan and studied Texas history in school.  School just
didn't cover this period in the detail that Gwynne has.
  I would be grateful for this book if only because it introduced me to
John Coffee Hays and Ranald MacKenzie.  Two remarkable men that I
have come to greatly admire.  I think I'd like to know more about them.
  Thank you so much, ELLA & HAROLD, for your painstaking scholarship
and knowledge of history.  And the contributions of our other posters
as well.  You are an erudite bunch, I must say.
 

[HaroldArnold]

Regarding John Coffee Hays , he did not stay in Texas,  After coming down with a serious case of gold fever he left Texas for California.  I presume that Hays County Just South of Austin was named after him.  Regarding Ranaald Mackenzie, he continued his military with several Western commands during the late 1870's and early 80's.  Unfortunately his carer was cut short by mental Illness and he died in 1889.  http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/fma07

[Jonathan]

What a great frontier saga. I found it a very moving history. I liked the way Gwynne handled the material he was working with. Trying to be objective, but still putting a lot feeling into it. What an agony for a generation of settlers. Of course I would recommend it.

I enjoyed the lively interest and the sage comments in all your posts.

Thanks, Ella and Harold. I would rate your discussion leadership a full 10!

'Let's meet again.'

Count me in, if the LaSalle Expedition to Texas is proposed.

Texas Revisited! I like the idea.

[Jonathan]

There were times when I felt left out. It was my age, of course. This was no country for old men. I'm sure it was at least a dozen times that the author put me with the women and children, in need of protection. It left me wondering if a Comanche would even want my scalp. No glory in that at the war dance. A white scalp, like the black, would, no doubt, be bad medicine.

[JoanP]

Goodness, is it really the end of February already?  Where did the time go!?  Can't let you go off without thanking everyone- Ella and Harold, for bringing us this most interesting topic - and  all of you "Westerners" for sharing your experience!  You are still living this history - walking the plains, seeing the descendants of the people we have been talking about. Your  contributions have brought so much better understanding to those of us in the East, where our knowledge and awareness is pretty much limited to  cowboy movies.  I'm serious!  We hear very little of the living conditions of the Indian tribes.  Throughout the discussion, I've been listening to your posts to learn what has become of them today.

 I've been thinking that only a little over 100 years have passed, since the tribes were forced to change their entire way of living.  Jonathan, you were born  just a few years too late.  I can see you now, the skilled horseman, riding with the Texas Rangers, six-shooter in hand!

Coming in to this discussion, my sympathies were with the first inhabitants.  As we progressed, I found myself repulsed by the violence to women and children, scalping, gang rapes, etc.  of the pioneer settlers who wanted and needed so little to make their homes! Why was so much violence necessary?  
Obviously, the agreements weren't going to work - the Indians didn't respect those treaties - and the Government in Washington never did live up to what they promised in return.  I'm resigned to what happened now.  But it took a whole lot of listening and soul-searching.

This afternoon, my Bruce and I watched "The Searchers"  together - and I spent the whole time explaining what really happened. (He thought the young girl was thankful to be rescued and then lived happily ever after with her family. I feel like such an expert, thanks to this book and this conversation with you all.  That is what I am most thankful to Mr. Gwynne for - his even treatment and understanding of both sides of the situation.

[Babi]

I'm sorry to learn about MacKenzie's final end, HAROLD. Considering how he lived in constant pain most of his life, I suppose it's not too
surprising he finally broke down under it.

[Frybabe]

Mr. Hays faired a lot better than MacKenzie. I guess he didn't make it or got sidetracked from being a gold miner. He became Sheriff of San Francisco in 1850. Not too long afterward he was appointed U. S. Surveyor General for California. He helped develop Oakland, which means he was into real estate. According to the bios, he also held interests in banking and utilities too. In 1876, he was a delegate to the Democratic national convention. He died in 1883 and is buried in Oakland.

[Jonathan]

The Searchers

Did you get a lump in your throat, when Ethan (Uncle James/John Wayne) picked  Debbie (Cynthia Ann) up in his strong arms and said: 'C'mon Debbie, it's time to go home?

Hays certainly deserved some of that gold in the Texas ground. Born too soon.

[Jonathan]

Or was it, 'Let's go home?'

[HaroldArnold]

I will in conclusion of this fine fun filled discussion, mention of the fact that yesterday was the 175th anniversary of the signing of the Texas Declaration of Independence.  It was a hastily approved document issued by a convention in a hurry since Santa Anna's Mexican army had the small Texan Garrison under singe at the Alamo in San Antonio.  They realized It was only a matter of days before that large Mexican army would be free to resume the east ward march.

It was by a curious twist of fate that an over confident Mexican President goofed in a big way some 7 weeks later after splitting his force and taking (it is rumored) a late afternoon siesta break with Emilie Morgan, a lovely black girl he had somehow acquired crossing south Texas. Some Texas folklorists style her the “Yellow Rose of Texas.”  In any case while the Mexican Army rested the 800 Texans charged and Lamar’s Calvary and the Bayou block retreat.  It was all over in 16 minute.  The Next day Santa Anna was captured wearing a private’s uniform.  

[jane]

Thank you all for your participation.  This discussion is now locked and archived.