Author Topic: Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C. Gwynne ~ February Book Club Online (Read 141046 times)

CallieOK · « **Reply #80 on:** January 25, 2011, 11:50:01 AM »

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.

Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C.Gwynne

February Book Club Online

It's an AMERICAN STORY. THE U.S. ARMY, TEXAS RANGERS - SETTLERS- ALL AGAINST THE INDIANS

The year was 1871 and the final destruction of the last of the hostile tribes was just beginning after 250 years of bloody combat. The end of the Civil War had brought many new people to the west searching for land, adventure, glory.

By this time the Indians had seen the buffalo depart, they were cadging food, stealing horses and other useful artifacts or ornamental things from the white man. Some learned to speak Spanish or English. All loved clothing and blankets made of cotton or wool, and the accumulation of white man's artifacts. It was a sort of cultural pollution that could not be stopped.

And then there were the white captives; particularly a white squaw who had lived with the Indians, married, had a son named Quanah who became the last great Comanche War Chief. An epic saga! A fascinating book! Come join us as we discuss the integration of the Indians into a civilized world.

Map of Great Plains - shaded in red

Great Plains near Nebraska

Discussion Schedule:

Feb. 1 - 7 Chapters 1 - 7
Feb. 8 - 14 Chapters 8 - 13
Feb. 15 - 21 Chapters 14-18
Feb 22 - 28 Chapters 19 -22

Related Links:; Interview with author, S.C. Gwynne ; Listen to C-SPAN Interview HERE ;
MAP of Texas; Historical Maps of Texas ; Tribal Map of Oklahoma ;
All about the Red River (Mississippi River) ;
The Die is Cast ;

Discussion Leaders: Ella & Harold

Here's a link to one map in an Oklahoma Atlas.

http://www.okatlas.org/okatlas/geopolitical/nations1.htm

I would encourage you to browse through the Table of Contents for other maps - if you are interested.

Ella - yes, indeed, the Plains are still there - miles and miles and miles of unplowed land. Lots of huge ranches.

The canyons of the LLano Estacado are mentioned in these first chapters. I lived in Amarillo for several years - and still have relatives and friends there. I find it fascinating to be driving I-40 from OKC to Amarillo and realizing that, while one can see for miles and miles in all directions, if one looks down - one realizes this land is deeply cut by all kinds of arroyos and canyons.

The author mentions the Caprock. I never realize when we have gotten "up" onto the Caprock - but the elevation does change.
Oklahoma City - 1230 feet above sea level
Shamrock TX (first town "over the border" going to Amarillo on I-40) - 2369 feet
Amarillo - 3605 feet

Aberlaine · « **Reply #81 on:** January 25, 2011, 12:11:58 PM »

I started reading our book last night. It was hard to put it down, but I stopped at Chapter Five. I wanted to leave some of the story for this week.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #82 on:** January 26, 2011, 09:38:54 AM »

WOW and more WOW, JoanP.

One could spend hours in that Okalahoma Atlas just by clicking - good grief. I skimmed the Comanches history and well, what can I say!

The Internet is absolutely a fascinating source of knowledge of just about everything one needs to know and last night the President even mentioned that someday we might be able to have one-to-one chats with our doctor over the Internet. Think so?

It gives me a good feeling to know the Plains are still there, the grasses still blowing in the wind; but the buffalo? Any of those ranches have buffalo grazing? Just cattle I would imagine? How do they round them up? Or do they have them penned up?

Your speaking of driving I-40 makes me dream of going west again. We came back partway on I-40 from a auto trip out west some years before my husband died. We drove out I-10 because we wanted to see some Southern Civil War sites, very sad ones, even Appomattox Court House was sad for me. That war, so many dead, seems in retrospect so very sad.

We should talk a little about Texas as a state of the Union before our book. I'll yell for Harold and hope he hears me!

Frybabe · « **Reply #83 on:** January 26, 2011, 03:04:41 PM »

Great map site, Callie. I just love clicking on the counties and getting links to all kinds of things. Thanks.

CallieOK · « **Reply #84 on:** January 26, 2011, 04:57:55 PM »

I'm going to hush about Oklahoma - at least until the last chapters. So much of the book takes place in Texas and we do need to concentrate on that.

Well - maybe one more link - mostly because of the name:

http://www.comanchebuffalo.com/ourstock.html

I'm glad some of you enjoyed the Oklahoma atlas.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #85 on:** January 26, 2011, 05:49:57 PM »

Callie, that was YOU (so sorry, how can anyone tell when the page is turned, I mistakenly thought JoanP had put that Oklahoma Atlas there for us. THANK YOU, it is so interesting! And the last one - the buffalo - the Original Red Meat! Yes, yes! Ugly, big beasts aren't they; still they belong! And that one at the very top - the buffalo, I swear, are moving!! Is it me, are they moving around???

But, JoanP, put the National Geographic in the heading for us to use whenever we need to or have the time!

What a fascinating month coming up, with comments that you are all providing and the history, I LOVE IT!

Thanks so very much!

kiwilady · « **Reply #86 on:** January 26, 2011, 06:29:41 PM »

The bison at our zoo to me are magnificent creatures. I like their look.

Carolyn

Frybabe · « **Reply #87 on:** January 26, 2011, 06:32:41 PM »

You are not seeing things, Ella. The Buffalo are moving.

CallieOK · « **Reply #88 on:** January 26, 2011, 07:31:32 PM »

, Ella! Was "turning the page" the reason my post showed up with the heading? It surprised me, too!!

I hope no one caught me modifying and modifying and...
I had found another web site about buffalo but thought you might like to read this one because "Comanche" was in the name - and, of course, it's in Oklahoma.

The other web site said "Buffalo or bison? We use both".

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #89 on:** January 27, 2011, 12:28:35 PM »

Regarding Buffalo: Though in 1900 there were only several thousand animals yet alive in all their old western range, that is not the case today. Based on a three year old Department of Agriculture paper there were in 2007 some 600,000 head on ranches large and small throughout the U.S. The Buffalo meat industry industry was thriving. The largest single heard was some 2,000 head at Custer State park in South Dakota.: the 2nd largest was some 900 head at Yellowstone National Park. This report did not note the size of the Ted Turner heard but today they must number a thousand or more. The bulk of the heard were in small ranches ranging from a very few to the fifties. I sometimes make Buffalo meat chili.

So long as the economics remain favorable the Buffalo future is assured.

JoanP · « **Reply #90 on:** January 27, 2011, 12:48:42 PM »

Have you ever tasted buffalo meat? Is it like beef?

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #91 on:** January 27, 2011, 12:52:36 PM »

THANKS, FRYBABE! The buffalo were moving; my aging eyes are still working okay or would it be the brain? I don't want to know.

CALLIE, yes, the need for the heading to be on each page was the reason your post showed up on Page 3. And buffalo and bison are the same thing?

HI HAROLD! Out of curiosity I looked up Ted Turner's holdings and it will surprise you:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22010764/ns/business-real_estate/

He not only owns more acreage than any other private landowner in the USA, but his herd of buffalo is the largest. An amazing fellow; if you not read his autobiography you will find it fascinating.

I haven't seen ground buffalo meat in our stores or I might try it for chili myself. On our cold Ohio days and nights it sounds very good!

Frybabe · « **Reply #92 on:** January 27, 2011, 04:16:41 PM »

I love Buffalo Burger.

When George and I lived in Bethlehem, we went regularly to the farmer's market in Quakertown. A vendor there sold buffalo meat, but he never had it out in the cases for some reason. I never got around to ordering a steak or two. Hoss's Restaurant has Buffalo (Bison?) Burger on the menu here in PA. Also, I have seen ground Buffalo meat on the meat shelf at BJ's Wholesale, but only the ground meat. I want to try a steak sometime.

JeanClark · « **Reply #93 on:** January 28, 2011, 06:51:24 AM »

Have read the book and found it very interesting. It reads like fictin, almost ss if the old western movies were taken from it,a little bit of everything. It seems that progress plows down eveything in its wake, good or bad. Also read the Trail of Tears which was so sad. Did anyone read Zane Greys book The Vanishing American ? Looking forward to discussion.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #94 on:** January 28, 2011, 09:15:56 AM »

WELCOME JEAN! Yes, the old west comes alive in this book; we are so happy you are joining us. "Progress plows down everything." The old west disappears to emerge in movies and books. Fortunately this book is historical so it is very close to the truth, do you agree?

I haven't thought of Zane Grey in years! At one time I read everything he wrote; perhaps it is time to renew my acquaintance? We have a Zane Grey museum in Ohio, near Zanesville, which was named after him and where he was born if I'm not mistaken. I went to that, also, years ago.

http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/zgrey.htm

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #95 on:** January 28, 2011, 10:10:25 AM »

I see the Ted Turner link places the size of his buffalo herd as 45,000 head. That's a lot of buffalo.

And Welcome to the discussion Jane. As way of introduction let me say that Jane is my neighbor here in San Antonio. She is a super bright senior lady with a long career as a military nurse and housewife spanning the continent from New York and Maine , to the west cost and now appropriately Texas.

ALF43 · « **Reply #96 on:** January 28, 2011, 01:00:22 PM »

JoanP- I have eaten Buffalo burgers and Beef- falo roasts. They breed the buffalo with the cattle and the meat is less fatty and supposdley healthier for you.

Jonathan · « **Reply #97 on:** January 28, 2011, 05:28:33 PM »

The part of the animal we like best up here in Canada, is his skin. We couldn't make it through our cold winters without our buffalo coats.

I hope to be in San Antonia by the first of February. I'll be travelling by canoe and mustang. Any tips on scenic routes? I know it's a long way, but I've got a fast horse, and I can paddle like hell.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #98 on:** January 28, 2011, 06:20:23 PM »

JONATHAN!

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #99 on:** January 28, 2011, 06:49:32 PM »

It may be helpful to have a little background into the history of the Republic of Texas, or the State of Texas, both of which are described in these chapters.

Texas history is complicated! But a beginning: (perhaps Harold or Jean would like to add to this)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas

maryz · « **Reply #100 on:** January 28, 2011, 06:51:43 PM »

I grew up in Houston, and in junior high or high school (don't remember which), we had a required semester of Texas History. I'm sure I've forgotten most of the details. And then, of course, found out more when we moved to Tennessee, and found that many of the Texas settlers came from Tennessee.

maryz · « **Reply #101 on:** January 28, 2011, 08:33:19 PM »

On C-Span 2 (Book TV), on Saturday at 5:15 p.m. ET, the interview with S.C.Gwyne will be rebroadcast (about 45 minutes).

Also on Saturday, 8:30-10 p.m., Book TV will talk about a book called Driven West: Andrew Jackson and the Trail of Tears to the Civil War. That might tie in with our discussion.

kiwilady · « **Reply #102 on:** January 28, 2011, 09:20:46 PM »

We had a lady on the old SN whose ancestor was on trail of tears. She had her family bio on her personal website. Photos too. I am terrible but I have totally forgotten her screen name.

Carolyn

maryz · « **Reply #103 on:** January 28, 2011, 10:38:58 PM »

Off topic: Carolyn, did you feel the Taupo earthquake?

bookad · « **Reply #104 on:** January 29, 2011, 12:15:40 AM »

hi there

Since I have almost finished 'Empire of the Summer Moon', I thought I'd better touch base. What a book, am so glad I was able to get it from the lending library here. They have only a 2 week lending period, so perhaps that was why I was able to access their only copy. Maybe I will be able to renew it and keep up with some of the discussion. My husband & I are currently in Rockport, Texas, just north of Corpus Christi. We leave about the 15 of February, heading for Florida.

I am going to research the geographic names mentioned in this book, and am hoping on a subsequent trip we can travel thru areas in Texas mentioned. I have such visions between this book, and a group of books read last winter about the hill country around San Antonio.

Have always had an interest in history; especially in areas before civilization!!!!!!!!!!!!!! influenced ways of life. Imagine a flock of cardinals taking off into the sky, am lucky if I see one or two...that was described in the hill country book which was based on diaries of the author's ancestors, and her researches.

I am a native Torontonian
Toronto-meeting place by the water
Ontario-huron word 'beautiful lake'
Canada-huron word meaning 'settlement' or village

native Torontonian by second generation barely, as my dad was the only one of his family born in Canada the rest came from England--my mom's people were early settlers in Saskatchewan, but early means late 1800s.

better late than never to say 'hi' I guess, was just going to lurk, but this book is just too rich in material next to my interest, so just had to say hi.
Deb

kiwilady · « **Reply #105 on:** January 29, 2011, 12:40:42 AM »

No I did not feel the earthquake I was deeply asleep at that time. However my son has left a trailer the size of a car here. GRRRRRR! The tow bar on it mysteriously fell off its stand so the trailer was kind of leaning to the ground. The trailer is like one of those UHaul furniture carriers people use when they are moving house in the US.He had it especially made for his business. I need it out of here! Maybe I can tell him I am worried about it getting damaged if we get more quakes!

Carolyn

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #106 on:** January 29, 2011, 08:48:35 AM »

HI TO YOU DEB! I hope you can renew your book; it makes it more interesting to discuss it with a group!

Thanks for the meanings of those words.

Texas=friends (from the above Wikipedia)

I've been to Eastern Canada several times, but didn't make it out west. Would love to!

Jonathan · « **Reply #107 on:** January 29, 2011, 02:22:40 PM »

'Imagine a flock of cardinals...'

No, I can't. Deb is right. Here in Toronto we're lucky to see one or two at a time. I saw one just the other day. Beautiful. Please send more impressions of Texas. I've never been there. Have you seen the Canadian, the river? Perhaps the cardinals you saw were feathered Comanches.

Our book is certainly a grand sweep of Texan history. Big enough to contain empires. Big enough to draw a clash of empires, like the Spanish, the French, the British, the American, and of course the Comanches. It seems like a new world version of the Asiatic Big Game. Perhaps Texas was at one time the Afghanistan of America, with its attractive, strategic position.

Frybabe · « **Reply #108 on:** January 29, 2011, 03:05:59 PM »

I was hoping to get my hands on a copy of Rachel Parker Plummer's narrative, but it looks like they are way out of print and scarcer than hen's teeth. I might just try the inter-library loan system through HACC, but probably not until later when I have more time. I am not sure if there are charges involved. I suspect I would not get a real book, but scanned page copies, which is okay. Many of the libraries listed on WorldCat.org have microfilm copies only.

CallieOK · « **Reply #109 on:** January 29, 2011, 04:24:37 PM »

Jonathan: Re: "flock of cardinals". There are four pair spending the winter near my bird feeder. It seems to me that the males are becoming a brighter red; must be mating season.

Here's a link to a Wikipedia article about the Canadian River. I only skimmed through it - but it looks as if the information is correct.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Canadian_River

I'm not quite sure where the river divides into the North Canadian and the South Canadian. Since I live in the OKC metro area, I do know that the North Canadian flows near downtown OKC and the South Canadian is about 30 miles south of that - on the southern edge of Norman, Oklahoma - home of The Oklahoma University Sooners (sorry - couldn't resist a little plug

). I know this because we had "river bottom parties" when I was in college there.

bookad · « **Reply #110 on:** January 29, 2011, 05:13:03 PM »

Jonathar-to clarify the cardinals in a flock were mentioned in either 'Hill Country, or True Women' both books by Janice Woods Windle.....it is a sight I could only dream of seeing. Sorry for the confusion.

CallieOK · « **Reply #111 on:** January 29, 2011, 06:04:27 PM »

I just finished watching the BookTV interview with S.C. Gwynne. What a delightful personable man!!!

Ella? Harold? Is there any chance he could be contacted about coming in to visit with us at some point during the Book Discussion?

JeanClark · « **Reply #112 on:** January 29, 2011, 07:09:02 PM »

My husband knew Zane Grey a he taught in the Gooding College{now closed} in Gooding Idaho and wrote seaveral books when there but I dont know the time span. He certainly had a good knowledge of the Idaho and Utah area. As far as the Empire bookbeing the truth. the jury is out on that. I know that the dates are accurate but who did what is still only speculation as so little was documented and oral history has way of distorting itself and tends to be self serving. I do know that the Indians were treated Very badly and are still subjected to much discriminaton in the Pacific Northwest and that alcoholism is a major problem with them and has done much damage to the younger generation.

Jonathan · « **Reply #113 on:** January 30, 2011, 01:54:59 PM »

It's all very interesting. Thanks, CallieinOK, for the link to info on the Canadian . What a river. Over 900 miles in length with its source in the Rockies at an elevation of 9,514 feet. Emptying into the Arkansas at 466 feet. It would be interesting to raft, the whitewater parts. I also got an answer to my question:

The name may have been given to the river by early French hunters and traders who came from Canada.

Hats off to those brave, enterprising French hunters and traders who roamed far and wide on the continent. Harold drew our attention to LaSalle a while ago, who made it all the way down to the Gulf of Mexico, only to be murdered by his own people along the way. I found an interesting account of that in Francis Parkman's writings.

Another interesting thing. Oklahoma has its Yukon, just like Canada. A suburb of Oklahoma City. Founded by A. N. Spencer in 1891. He was into railways. Yukon attracted many Czechs from Europe. Now that was about the time of the Yukon gold rush. Could that have made it attractive for the immigrants? Of course that was the time when Europeans were hearing that all streets in America were paved with gold.

I must have some Zane Grey in the house. The Vanishing American. Was that about the cruel fate of the Indians?

CallieOK · « **Reply #114 on:** January 30, 2011, 03:33:57 PM »

Jonathan, To keep from going too far off-topic in reply to your post, I just sent you an e-mail via the "Send a Message" link here.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #115 on:** January 30, 2011, 05:29:02 PM »

CALLIE, we can but try to interest the author. I also saw him on TV, and he is very enthusiastic about his subject, isn't he?

However, as JEAN points out

Quote

As far as the Empire bookbeing the truth. the jury is out on that. I know that the dates are accurate but who did what is still only speculation as so little was documented and oral history has way of distorting itself and tends to be self serving.

Something we can discuss as we probe into the book. Your ideas as to the truth of allegations made are going to be interesting!

JONATHAN, there are so many rivers to cross in this book - to explore - I hope your canoe is a worthy craft.

When I first started reading this book, I thought we must get a map of that river, and then there were more rivers, and I realized that we cannot be spending all our time on rivers! It made good sense for the Indians to camp near rivers and then, of course, that is where many battles took place.

What a great discussion come Tuesday (and I hear OHio is to have freezing rain and possibly more snow to add to the piles we have). Buffalo robes might come in handy!

CallieOK · « **Reply #116 on:** January 30, 2011, 06:52:08 PM »

Ella, yes, "Sam" - as the interviewer called him - certainly was enthusiastic!

I recorded the interview and also scribbled some notes, most of which are just a few words and not direct quotes (I can't write that fast!!).

One of the audience questions was: "Were you harsher on the Indians than you should have been?"
Gwynne's reply was that he did his research as a reporter would and, in his opinion, "that's the way the frontier was."
I suppose someone would have to take a look at some of his references and see how much agreement there was about this.

Oklahoma is supposed to have a "blue norther" (pages 39-40 in the book) on Tuesday. His description is accurate!!!

JeanClark · « **Reply #117 on:** January 31, 2011, 02:49:04 AM »

I think that he was realistic about the behavior of the Indians. Some of their methods of senseless torture seemed to be new to the white men but many had been carried out by the so called civilized people in Europe.Humans seem to have a great penchant for cruely to animals and one another.

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #118 on:** January 31, 2011, 11:08:13 AM »

Ella and all. Regarding CallieinOK’s question in Post 286: Ella? Harold? Is there any chance he could be contacted about coming in to visit with us at some point during the Book Discussion ?“

This is usually done by either E-mail contact direct to the author or his publisher. I Googled the name, S C Gwynne but it did not provide any personal home page or direct e-mail address to the author. It did provide the following link to the author’s Publishers Summer Moon home page. Ella perhaps you might send a note from this page telling them we are beginning the discussion with an invitation and directions for joining.
http://authors.simonandschuster.com/S-C-Gwynne/47568884

HaroldArnold · « **Reply #119 on:** January 31, 2011, 11:54:26 AM »

Regarding the explorations of La Salle in the 1690. La Salle immigrated to French Canada in the 1680’s and began a successful career of exploration of the Great lakes and their south shores. By the early 1690 he had found a short portage to the Illinois River and explored it to its conflux with the Mississippi. He established a Fort and trading post on the Illinois in what is now the State of Illinois. In the mid winter of 1692 with a few French and Indians he left the trading post on sleds pushed down on the river ice. Reaching the Mississippi they made canoes and continued down the river to the gulf where on a great sand jetty stretched out into the Gulf, he realized the commercial and political importance of the river to France. He returned to Canada to sail to France where he was ennobled by King Louis XIV who approved and partially financed La Salle’s plan to establish a French colony at the Mississippi’s mouth.

This was 1685 when La Salle with 4 French Ship, 200 would be colonists, mostly men sailed for the New World. Though LaSalle previously had done most everything right in his explorations, he now seemed to do everything wrong. Either by chance or by accident he missed the mouth of the Mississippi ending up on the central Texas Coast where he landed his ill-fated colony in a crude fort named Fort St Louis. La Sale was killed by his own men on March 19 1697. The last 20 or so surviving colonists were killed by the local Karankawa Indian in Dec 1688 or Jan 1689. This French Fort St Louis colony is the source for the inclusion of the French Flag as one of the Six Flags of Texas.

News:

Author Topic: Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C. Gwynne ~ February Book Club Online (Read 141046 times)