Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online

[PatH]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

June Bookclub Online  Everyone is welcome!

Old Filth
 by Jane Gardam

"The opening pages of the book find Filth (Sir Edward Feathers), a retired but still unassailable old barrister whose reputation has grown to such mythic proportions that it obstructs the hard truths of a man so damaged by his past that he has found himself forever unable to love. It's only as Filth toddles gracefully into old age that he can begin to rediscover the parts of himself that he has locked away and come to terms with the dark secrets that made him the man he became."   (Reviewed by Maggie O'Farrell) The novelist,  Jane Gardam was born  in Coatham, North Yorkshire on July  11. 1928. Her title character's late-in-life questions about whether his life has had meaning are especially moving—and universal, given this author's own experience and age. “Both witty and poignant, this work is more than a character study; through her protagonist, Gardam offers a view of the last days of empire as seen from post-9/11 Britain.  Borrowing from biography and history, Gardam has written a literary masterpiece that retraces much of of the 20th century's torrid and momentous history.”  Library Journal

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Discussion Schedule for the coming week:

- June 14 - 19  The Time of Frenzy; A Light House; Wandsworth; A Light House  129-192

Some Topics for Consideration
June 14 - 19

1.  Do you see Betty's death as the start of Filth's inward journey back in time?   In his own way, is he grieving for her?

2.  Were you surprised that the two had not shared a bed for 30 years?  Do you think their relationship was different  in the beginning? Why is he feeling lust for women now?

3.   "I feel, truly, filth."  Does he feel this self-disgust  each time he is called "Filth"?  Why does he feel this way?

4.  Veneering has compared Betty's voice with Desdemona's.  What might this say about her relationship with him?

5.  Filth says he's "headed to the future" as he goes off to visit "ghastly Babs."  Why?  What more do we learn about the horror in Wales?

6. When Filth finds himself in a confessional, he tells the priest he's "been more sinned against than sinning."  What does this mean?

7.  Is Claire a person of interest in the story - other than that she had a thing for Eddie in Wales?  Why would Eddie leave Betty's jewelry to her, especially the magnificent pearls?

8.  "If you've not been loved as a child, you don't know how to love a child. You need prior knowledge."  Do you agree with Filth on this?  Do you think most Raj Orphans would agree?  What do you think of the relationship between Claire and her son, Oliver?
 

Related Links:
  UK Legal System  (rosemarykaye);
  The British Empire;
  A Brief Biography of Rudyard Kipling;
  Kipling's "Baa Baa Black Sheep";

Discussion Leaders:  Traude  & Joan P

[Babi]

 Glad you like your new counselor, STEPH.  Sometimes a fresh approach can be a big help.

 There were always hints of trouble in Paradise, ie., the Ingoldby home.  The Colonel,  ill-tempered, unforgiving, violence toward animals who probably have little reason to like him.  All topped by enquiring of his wife,  “Are you a fool?”   Still, it is a place where Eddie had a welcome, a room of his own and a friend.   That is a great deal for a young boy.  Which, of course, would
make any disillusionment all the more painful.

  Sir, saying good-bye to Eddie,  “Send your sons here when you’ve got some.
Present us with a silver cup for something when you’re a filthy rich lawyer, I dare say?  You’ll be a lawyer.  Magnificent memory.  Sense of logic, no imagination and no brains.  My favorite chap, Teddy Feathers, as a matter of fact.   I dare say.”     I love it! Sir continues to be my favorite
character in this book.

  A stunning letter from a new character, Isobel Ingoldby.  Isobel, amazingly, in spite of the fact that she apparently is lesbian,  truly loves Edward Feathers. I can hardly wait to learn what happened on Peel Street.   She knows all about Veneering and Betty,  and declares Edward was a saint.  I don’t imagine he appreciates her mentioning the subject, no matter how sympathetically.   She closes with the statement “I am one of those who know you are not really cold.”   
  Considering the icy coldness of his strictly formal reply,  I think she’s wrong about that.
  What is it that makes Old Filth reject those who would love him, if he would permit it?
No wonder Betty found a lover.  I wonder how much pity was involved in her remaining with him?  I wonder if she would have stayed if Veneering had been free? 

[JoanP]

Bellemere - what a pleasant surprise!  Let me echo Traude's Welcome!
 Glad to hear that the flashback method is not causing a problem for you.  I wonder if everyone is getting used to it now.  I like that you feel it is a good way to get to know Filth. You rarely get to know a person's whole life story at the first meeting.  I am now finding this is a good way to get the whole story -  in stages. 

More bird questions, PatH - a tamil?  a hoopoe?  Are you familiar with these?

Good questions here this morning! (We need to get some good questions on the list for Jane Gardam - is there anything you want included in that email?  Let's take advantage of her offer to respond to our questions.)

Babi's favorite character is "Sir" - do you have one?  I'm feeling it for Filth - I guess I feel sorry for him - my hope is that he will figure it all out - open that box since the Wales affair.  Even at this late stage in his life. This is the only way I see that  happy ending, Steph.  Let's root for him together!
Why is that so many counsellors refrain from offering advice?  I never did understand that. 

I wonder about what Rosemary's reaction will be to Sir's reasoning why Edward should become a lawyer- a barrister? - "Magnificent memory.  Sense of logic, no imagination and no brains."  My husband was not amused, didn't know if I was commenting on his excellent memory or ...well, I won't finish the thought.

[bellamarie]

Straude~ "Bellamarie, if you read The Man in the Wooden Hat, may we count on you not to reveal it here?  Thank you so much."

IF I read the sequel, it won't be anytime soon since I can barely find time to keep up with reading this book.  So yes, you can count on me not revealing it.  lolololol

rosemarykaye~  I think your neighbor's opinions have completely confused me about this book.  Seems the more you try to explain the more complicated it gets.....lololol  Now Steph is concerned about an unhappy ending as well as myself.

JoanP~ At this point I have no particular favorite character.  As much as Jane has tried to describe O.F. as distinguished, etc., I just can not attach myself to him or anyone else in this book.  For me there is just too little information, and too much void in each of their characters.  My romantic bubble burst when Betty buried the pearls revealing her unfaithfulness to O.F.   

Steph~ I can relate to you not wanting to deal with unhappy endings as of right now.  I too needed to stay clear of such things as books, movies and even songs that were sad for me after losing my beloved mother for some time.  

Well, I am expecting six of my grndchildren in just a few hours for a sleepover, ages 3 months up to 15 yrs so needless to say I will not be getting to the next chapters anytime today, but will be enjoying lots of laughter, so I will have to catch up tomorrow after they all go home.

Ciao for now~

[JoanP]

Bellamarie - posting together- my library as the Man in the Wooden Hat too - available and ready for pick up.  (Don't worry, Traude - I won't reveal its contents - but really want to read it!

Babi asks - "What is it that makes Old Filth reject those who would love him, if he would permit it?"

Really interested in what you think?  I'm somewhere between his fear of abandonment and his aversion to sex.  
Bellemere muses about what happened in Wales that it had to be more than schoolyard hazing, to have such a traumatic effect. At this point, I don't think Claire and Babs were part of it - maybe they witnessed it, though.  What do you think?

Babi - trouble in Paradise - the Ingoldby's household.  Let's consider that family.  It isn't too hard to see why Pat has dark moods, is it? Mom and Eddie seem to have a lot in common, keeping secrets locked inside.  So she really doesn't like everybody - according to Pat, she doesn't like anybody.  Hard words for Eddie to hear.

PatH - Eddie was only 14, when  Isabel attempted some sort of seduction?   I'm confusing the dream with what actually did happen  with Isobel.  Something about the girl in the yew trees? Traude, I thought it was in the dream when Isobel came to his room and he sent her packing.
It was in this same dream that Gardam writes - "Eddie would finish her,as once already in his life he would finish a woman."  What could this mean?

Jonathan - welcome back!  You've been missed. Do tell  what you read of Isobel's seduction?  Can you separate the dream from what actually happened? Was it in fact a dream?
 
Traude - Gardam writes - "The weird dream, or whatever it was...both shamed and saddened him."  "Yet all his life, regret."  Regret that he sent her away?
Looking forward to hear how you read the Isobel incident back then - and was there anything in her letter of condolence that shed some light on what actually happened?

[Jonathan]

It's all all about Image and Reality. Sir Edward's public and private lives.

Thanks for the help, Rosemary. Introducing a psychiatrist into the discussion does in fact offer a good key to OF's character. He is, and was, despite his fantastic reputation, an insecure person. The author tells us as much. Betty, on occasion, would tell Filth to see a psychiatrist. (I've forgotten the page.)  After a difficult case, having sentenced a man to death, he came creeping to Betty's bed looking for solace. She would reassure him that he had made the right decision - then turn her back on him and fall asleep.

Sir Edward, looked up to in the profession as one who has reached the pinnacle of magisterial success, turns out to be a delightfylly human being. Same as you and me.

I believe the fifty percent failure rate is a little more than decisions overturned. It seems to me that Sir Edward was concerned about his dispensing of justice. How about this quote from the book:

Filth had always said - of his Cases - 'I am trained to forget.' 'Otherwise,' he said, 'how could I function?' Facts, memories, the pain of life - of lives in chaos - have to be forgotten. Filth had condemned men to death. He had seen innocent men convicted. As a Silk he reckoned that fifty per cent of his Cases had gone wrong. In Hong Kong the Judges lived in an enclave of palaces but behind steel gates guarded night and day.

It seems to me that Sir Edward and Betty did have suspicions about each other. All married people do. A bit. Adds a lot of zest ot life. Vaneering has Betty sounding like Desdamona, doensn't he? That does raise questions.

[straudetwo]

Jonathan,  that's it! The private and the public lives - so true. Also, you are right. To hear about the psychiatrist's opinion gives the discussion an additional dimension. That doesn't mean I would be swayed by anyone's opinion.

JoanP,  the "non-event", if I may call it that, is described on pp. 91 and 92.

"In the following years years, the memory or dream[/b ] of what happened never quite left him.  His bedroom door opened sand closed again. and the goddess - lioness  - girl was at the end of the bed. Standing and watchingbrooding on his inability to take his eyes off her. She then walked to the window and looked out.[/color]

The text says "... the memory or dream of what happened" (not "seemed" to have happened, for instance).
Besides, Eddie had been up a short while earlier, gone to the window and looked out at the rain and the moon, which soon disappeared.  (fourth paragraph, pg. 91).full paragraph pg. 91).

I believe that it was not a dream but did happen. From Isobel's long condolence letter after Betty's death we can deduce that they had other meetings about which we'll learn more later. Famous last word: later)

[bellamarie]

Jonathon~

"It seems to me that Sir Edward and Betty did have suspicions about each other. All married people do. A bit. Adds a lot of zest ot life.

Hmmmmm....Really??  I can not agree with this statement whatsoever.  If you have trust in your marriage there should be no reason for suspicions of your spouse.  Seems O.F. and Betty had reasons to have suspicions of each other.  Her because of his inability to be intimate and affection, he due to her unfaithfulness with Veneering.  

I'm not so sure the psychiatrist offered us any insight into O.F. or the book, she concluded it was a book of old people and has an unhappy ending, without reading it.  Did I miss something?

[straudetwo]

Rosemary Thank you for the information in your # 118. It certainly makes sense that the intended word was/is "valley", for the house stood high up, and the factory sat down in the valley, only its chimnys visible.
Hence "deli" is likely a printing error. ( I wonder how it escaped the attention of the editors.)

In haste,  I have my grands here.

[rosemarykaye]

Straude - husband and I were entertained by the thought of a factory in a deli    I bet the proofreader just put it through a spell checker and didn't stop to read it again and see if it made any sense.  This is something i was always trying to drum into my son, whose view of homework was that it should be dealt with as quickly and painlessly as possible...

Re suspicions, I actually agree with Johnathan.  I am not sure that you ever really know every little thing about any other person.

Re my neighbour, I didn't really bring her in as any kind of help to the discussion - it was just that someone asked if anyone had not liked the book, so she came to my mind, as she is someone to whom I have lent many books so I know her opinions on most of them.  I imagine that one of the fun bits of being a librarian (which I always wanted to be but was not allowed to) must be hearing what people have thought of the books they have borrowed, although I know I would have to bite my tongue and not say "Why are you borrowing that?" on occasion 

Rosemary

[Steph]

Ah Rosemary, I owned a used book store for some years. The great joy of bookstores is the readers who come in to discuss and learn and ask about.. books.. Ihad such fun learning about why people love authors.
I really think that Isabel was real in the night scene. She was busy rebelling and there are so many mentions of how good looking Edward was..
I like Edward.. His inability to show love is so very hard on him.. He really does not want to be what he is.. But knows no way to change..
Edwards behavior after Bettys death is understandable to me.. Escape.. that is the word.. He did love Betty.. I still think that his hate of Veneering is something more complicates than an affair.

[Babi]

  I do feel very sorry for the child Eddie. In fact, I'm finding that aspect of the book
somewhat depressing. Now that Old Filth is coming alive under the shock of Betty's death,
I'm finding the book much more enjoyable.

 The poor lawyers do take a great deal of flak, don't they? I suspect it's because the
field attracts so many of the self-serving sort, and it's more 'public'. Does make it
tiresome for the good ones.

   It is shocking to see how casually Eddie is made an outsider by the Ingoldsby family.   All those years with them, from child to teenager,  surely they would have developed a fondness for him.  But apparently not.  Pat’s estimate of his parents’ depth of affection is more accurate than I thought.   Another sad result of the separation of children from parents, perhaps?   We are probably looking at the root of the old reputation of the English as aloof and cold.

    Isn’t this intriguing?  Eddie runs into Babs in Oxford.  She remarks that Claire has moved “as far away as possible”.   Then she say, “And they made sure we were never to meet up again--or they tied to.  Wanted us to drop each other dead.”   Why?  Another tantalizing little clue dropped in our path.
  Then, a bit later, Babs remarks that “my lot and Claire’s are still in India and I never give them a thought.”   And Eddie realizes since leaving Wales he’s never given a thought to Babs and Claire.   Another instance of  the alienation from others caused by separation from those who should have been closest. 

 It’s sad how Eddie is afraid and horrified of his own stirrings of lust.  It started with his first meeting with Isobel, when his body reacted so unexpectedly.   The boy was fourteen and hadn’t a clue as to what was happening.   There was no one in his life able, or willing, to take on a fatherly role and tell him those Things Every Boy Should Know.  Jonathan says, "She would reassure him that he had made the right decision - then turn her back on him and fall asleep.   Isn't that why he felt safe in going to her?  "She would not try to use her body to distract him"?  Poor Eddie. Poor Betty.

[Jonathan]

Of all the little mysteries thrown in our way, none is so intriguing as the hatred between Edward and Vaneering. The book begins with it, with even a suggestion that one might murder the other. On the other hand, now, with both pushing eighty and widowed, there seems to be a reconciliation in the making. They might even be dining Christmas Day on what Sir Edward has left over in his fridge. These rich old buggers. Ha!

So why Edward's long-lasting hatred? Professional jealousy? Probably just human jealousy. They were always such a contrast. We're often reminded of it. Vaneering was so outgoing, confident, full of energy, the life of the party - in so many ways the person Edward would like to have been. The most successful can still be envious of others.

[straudetwo]

JoanP,   these paragraphs on pg. 92 are telling I believe:

The weird dream (or whatever it was) was  never quite obliterated. He had not so much kept it to himself as denied it. In a way he never understood, it both shamed and saddened him.
 
Why ever ? Nothing had happened. He had won. He had silenced the sirens. If there had been sailors on board, they would not have had to tie this Ulysses to the mast.  So sucks to sexy Isobel, the cradle-snatcher.
Yet - all his life - regret.

What we see in the condolence letter, years later, is that Isobel was madly in love with him to the last.   She asks just how much he remembers and "We never mentioned High House, did we? Again ?

Thank you, one and all, for your great posts and your insights. I look forward to tomorrow when, thankfully, the veil of secrecy is lifted - somewhat.

Rosemary, your help is very welcome, even necessary, again,  because some Anglicisms in the new chapters are not fully clear to me.

Jonathan,  yes, there was jealousy between O.F. and Veneering, also professional rivalry. Both were brilliant lawyers,  successful,  rich - and diametrical opposites, as you said.   O.F., fiercely competitive, fastidious, always impeccably dressed, looked down on Veneering, who had a less glamorous educational background from a "lesser" university, was loud, flamboyant, and often wore khaki shirts and shorts. O.F. considered him "vulgar".
But early in the book they meet again, decades later,  both in their dotage, both widowers, both lonely. But we won't know what their lives were like in H.K. until Jane Gardam lets us off the tenterhooks
and we must attach some significance to that.

I have an appointment in the morning but will come on line in the early afternoon.
Thank you, one and all.
Traude

[Steph]

He runs and runs and run.. Driving on interstates, where he has never driven. He seems to be retreating to another time in his life.. It wont help, but he seems driven to find out. I could cry for him, since I know that particular impulse.. Death brings out odd things in all people..She has touched a chord in me..I feel so sorry for Edward. He wants so much and is not sure what he wants.

[Babi]

  STRAUDE, maybe his older self recognizes that he was cruel to Isobel. If I had spoken
to someone like that, in my youthful alarm and embarassment, I think I would be ashamed
and sad to remember it.  Yes, Isobel was way out of line and one couldn't expect a boy
of fourteen to react wisely. But I would find it a painful memory.

 For the first time, I feel that Edward is being real.  The sense of unreality at an unexpected death is perfectly described.  There is an odd detachment while one mentally adjusts.  Then the
sudden need to do something, to act, to involve oneself with practicalities...even if they aren't very practical. 
 It's really rather refreshing. The rather alarming account of the 81-yr. old man driving the highways when he hasn't driven in years.  Then a rare bit of humor.  Sir Edward pulled over by the police.  “Your license is in order?”  “Yes, of course.  I am a lawyer.”   “It doesn’t follow, sir...”  I am enjoying this book much more, now.

[bellamarie]

Yes, Steph,  Edward seems to be running to and from everything in his life now, bumping into his memories and past.  He is doing things he would never have tried before, he is hearing and seeing things, he is a man I think afraid of his own self because even his body and mind seem to be betraying him.  The visit to Babs was very upsetting, I really don't know what was real and what wasn't.  

There is so much to take in, I don't think it has all processed for me in just the first chapter of this week's assignment.  I have a busy day today with my daycare so I hope I can find a few moments to go back over some of the things that were troubling to me.  I have not been able to get past "The Time of Frenzy" chapter....what a fitting title for this chapter.  Can't wait to see what others think of this chapter.

Ciao for now~

[JoanP]

Let's stick with the posted schedule - hold off on "the Time of Frenzy" chapter until tomorrow, Bella... we need to let others catch up before we move into the next section - which will be Time of Frenzy to the start of Part 2.  Since this section a bit shorter, we'll spend tomorrow through Sunday finishing up to the start of Book 2.

Will be back after "gym class"  - need to give consideration to those weekend posts - and finish up a few points on this last section - before jumping with Eddie into his Time of Frenzy.  Did he or did he not go "home"  to Malaysia after sending that letter to his father?  

See you in an hour.

[bellamarie]

JoanP~

Since this section a bit shorter, we'll spend tomorrow through Sunday finishing up Book 2.

 
Am I understanding this correctly that we are to finishing up Book  2, or up to it since the  heading says... June 14 - 19  The Time of Frenzy; A Light House; Wandsworth; A Light House  129-192  to the start of PART 2

Ooops... sorry for mentioning The Time of Frenzy today, I was responding to the two prior posts and did not realize today is indeed the 13th.  

[JoanP]

Two more mysteries for the list -
Babi, I had forgotten what Babs told Eddie in Oxford - - "And they made sure we were never to meet up again--or they tried to. Wanted us to drop each other dead.”  Who were they?  It sure sounds as if Babs and Claire were part of whatever happened in Wales...

And Jonathan reminds us -that the  book begins with the suggestion that one might murder the other." Eddie or Veneering.  I don't see Eddie capable of murder -  But we are told of their "mutual sneering dislike."The mystery persists - what caused this dislike - and was Betty part of the mystery...

I think it's right now, Bella - as the heading states - we'll start the "Time of Frenzy" tomorrow - the 13th - to the start of Book 2 on Sunday the 19th.  On Monday we'll begin to discuss  Part 2.
Trying not to spoil things for those who just received their books - Rosemary, fingers crossed that you will get that library book soon!  Your input has been invaluable  - and imagine that you will see much more in thebook that will clear things up.

Babi -Something went on with Isobel that has caused a bad feelings, but I'm not sure it was just because he told her she was evil and  sent her away. Traude quotes the lines - "Nothing had happened. He had won."  Maybe she did come to his room...does he really regret sending her away now, as an adult?

 Do you remember a reference - his memory of Isobel coming out of the yew trees?  I can't find that now.  Whatever did she mean in her letter that she loved him?  Why would he be so angry at that when he received her letter?

[JoanP]

I was just rereading the introductory chapter - do you remember, the Benchers talking about Filth - "Women went mad for him."
Can you count how many were said to have loved Eddie - back when he felt so alone, so unloved, so unloveable?  Can these revelations cause him to change the way he feels about himself at this late stage in his life.  I'm trying to put myself in his place - what if I found there were those  I admired as a young girl, felt the same about me?  First, I thnk I'd need proof.  And I think I'd feel regret that I was unable to see it at the time> and wish to relive that part of my life.  I don't think I'd be angry though...

Steph writes - "Death brings out odd things in all people."  Betty's death seems to have triggered long-repressed feelings in Filth.  While she lived, he felt no need to look back.  She organized his life for him.  Now that she is gone, surely he will be lookng back at his memories of her - and apparently, others too.

[rosemarykaye]

Waah-Hey, as my children would say - the book has finally appeared!  I am ploughing through as fast as possible and am up to page 98.  Off to read some more now.

Rosemary

PS - Straude, I checked and in my copy the factory is definitely in a "dell" 

[bellamarie]

Okay thanks so much JoanP, just wanted to make sure I don't read ahead because I LOVE not knowing what's around the corner. 

I think when the mention of Edward feeling he could murder Veneering it wasn't a true intent.  We all can get angry and say something like wanting to strangle someone etc. but not really mean it.  If anything I liked how it left us seeing the two of them eating dinner together.

YEA!!!!  Rosemary, I am so glad you now have book in hand.  I so look forward to your input. 

I still am trying to understand how Babs and Isobel being lesbians have such intimate, sexual strong love and affection for Edward.  Love for him as an endearing friend, yes, but that does not seem to be how they express it.  And again I wonder about the mention that Mrs. Ingoldby was Edward's first English love.  I can't imagine it went anywhere but a crush he had for her since he seems incapable of any kind of intimacy of a sexual nature. 

Babs, I am feeling much like you stated about feeling sorry for "Eddie the child."  It seems he has experienced more than any child should in his childhood years and is now a result of his adulthood.  He does not have any signs of resentment toward the females in his life.  So can we conclude its the males that have formed in inadequacies in his adulthood?  So much to decipher.

Ciao for now~

[straudetwo]

I agree with JoanP. We need this day to clear up any residual uncertainties about the chapters we have covered so far.  

Bellamarie,  JoanP's original schedule for  the week of June 14 - 19  has four chapters :
The Time of Frenzy, pg. 129; A Light House, pg. 160; Wandsworth, pg. 169, A Light House, pg. 173, i.e. from pp. 129 to 192.

Babi re # 135. I concur. After being "sluiced" willy nilly  back and forth through decades of O.F.'s life, we are finally shown the humanity of him behind the legend and almost a) cardboard figure.  Now we  can  begin to assess a fuller picture of the man. And we're going to enjoy the book more as the veil i lifted  little by little.

JoanP, re that summer at High House, when Eddie/Teddie was 14 and Isobels probably no more than 1-2 years older. She just seemed
"old". She too full notice of him  noticed him when he came out into the trees (woods? bushes? gaden/yard? ) as an emissary to get her into the house for lunch.  She looked him up and down, followed him in, played with her food and picked, unasked, off Eddie's plate,  dreaming of joining the Civil War in Spain (1936). How realistic is this ? What an extreme, what a cry for help ! 

in her condolence letter, Isobel says ages later that she loved -  and still loves  -Teddy. How can we doubt her She sounds sincere --- even if the beginning was merely a crush.  And ven if that were true, it would not be the first time for an adolescent crush to develop into real, even lasting, love.  And again I'd like to point out that we do not learn of
Isobel's being a lesbian until she says so, in the condolence letter.  What about bisexuality?

Bellamarie, how do we know Babs was a lesbian ? Perhaps I missed the reference.

[Jonathan]

I realize now I'm all over the map with my posts. Perhaps it's the nature of the book. Responding to ideas in your posts, I've allowed myself to draw on impressions I've received by reading ahead. I'm sorry about that. I'll get back on schedule. Fascinating work of art, isn't it? And fascinating to see how strongly everyone is reacting to the plight of poor Sir Edward. Here I go again. It seems to me his bereavment has brought on more bewilderment than grief. Falling in love with Mrs Ingoldsby wasn't difficult for a teenager who had never known a mother. What a plot! I can see where even a psychiatrist would hesitate to second guess this author.

[serenesheila]

It seems to me that both Isobel and Babs, are bisexual.  If that is true, it would be natural for each of them, to be sexually active with both males and females. 

I am back to a state of confusion!  Somehow, I read ahead, and find myself at Part 2.  I do not want to be a spoiler, so I won't comment on specifics in this weeks readings.  In fact, I will go back and reread this weeks' chapters.

Sheila

[JoanP]

You're just fine, Sheila - tomorrow anything that you've read up to Part 2 -  will be open for comment.   You're just one day early, is all.

Jonathan - I know what you mean - it is the nature of the book!  Sometimes it can't be helped, as you say.

I've  just stumbled over another reference to "Time of Frenzy" which we will begin with tomorrow.  From some of the comments already posted, it seems that the time of frenzy  refers tp Filth's state following Betty's death.  Before we get into these next chapters, I would like to hear what you think of the first reference to a time of frenzy in Filth's life.  It occurs very early in the book, the last lines of the first chapter,The Donheads.

"This is not the time of frenzy," he heard himself say out loud as the images of the day merged into dreams.  He was clinging to someone on a boat deck and the sea a silver skin.  There was screaming but it was somewhere else and hardly woke him.  'We dealt with all that," he said, " in what they all my long, untroubled and uneventful life."

Interesting that the author chose these same words for the next chapter, don't you think?  How did you interpret the first reference to "tine of frenzy"?

Rosemary has her book!  Yaaay!  ....or "Waah-Hey"

[bellamarie]

Jonathon, it seems we are all a bit in a "frenzy" and all over the place.  I agree, I think it is indeed "the nature of the book."

I've asked myself many times, how on earth did Jane keep up with everything writing such a complicated book. 

Shelia, you are where many of us are...in a state of confusion.  I too need to go back and reread The Time of Frenzy and then continue with the assigned chapters.  Thank you for pointing out that Babs and Isobel could have been bisexual.  For some reason I had thought they both stated they were lesbian.   Egads...."frenzy" is a perfect word for my state of mind right now.  lolol

Ciao for now~


 

[straudetwo]

JoanP, yes, the frenzy.  The first one was the inescapable separation from Ada and the tranquility of the village, an experience Edward banished from his memory. Nothing of this magnitude  happened to Eward -- until Betty's unexpected death. Nothing has jolted him so profoundly since,

Jonathan, you're fine, your comments always on target. It's the book that makes us go back and forth. There's much to be discovered about human nature.

Until tomorrow ...

[Steph]

I spoke ahead, but honestly assumed that as always, the new chapters started on Monday, not Tuesday.. I have not finished this weeks assignment, but the paging throws me off because I am reading it on my IPAD and thenumbering is different.
I guess I understand Edwards desire to return to another time. When my husband died, I did the same thing. It is almost as if a time before the beloved is necessary to reconnect with your life.. This seems to be what Edward is doing. But it is odd that all of these women seem to have gone to school with Betty and he did not realize it.

[Babi]

"Whatever did she mean in her letter that she loved him?  Why would he be so angry at that when he received her letter?"

(JoanP)
I sometimes think Old Filth reacts this way anytime someone's words or
actions seem to demand more of him than he is able to give. He prefers
to regard this as outrageous, improper behavior. This allows him to
shut them out in a righteous indignation. Which he did.
 His first meeting with Isobel, at fourteen. Wasn't she out walking
among some trees then?

[JoanP]

Babi - Filth's reaction to Isobel's letter makes sense when he can't deal with any other response.  As you say, he prefers to "regard it as outrageious, improper behavior" - just as he did when he was 14.  "Righteous indignation!"  He hasn't changed much then, has he?

I thought she was walking in the trees too - went back to reread...and found her -   She makes quite an impression on the boy!  She is described as "gigantic; bony, goden and vast - as tall as Eddie and certainly pretty old.  She could be twenty. ...Supreme self-command.  Wow!"

Traude, do you remember the impression she made on the boy - - "Eddie felt something happening to his anatomy and though he had no idea what it was he began to blush."  This is obviously the first time he's ever - responded  to a girl in this way.
He just doesn't seem to know how to react to this girl, does he? - then and now.  

[JoanP]

Steph, I'll admit this has been confusing.  We started mid week on June 1, and that's how the schedule became a little irregular.  (This week we'll end on Sunday and begin Part 2 on Monday morning.)

And the flashbacks have made it difficult to discuss the book in a linear fashion.  Hard to keep in mind when Filth went back in time.   To make it more difficult, we have something of a mystery here, which we are all trying not to divulge, knowing that others have not reached the ending yet.  We know that everyone is doing their best...really we do.  We don't want anyone to go silent for fear of spoiling though.  We NEED your input!

That's another one for our mystery list, Steph  - when did Betty, Claire and Babs know one another - and where?  Do we know what happened to Claire and Babs when they left Ma Dibbs?  Maybe they were put together then?  Do we know when/how Isobel Ingoldby knew Betty?  She sounds as if they were very close friends...

[JoanP]

The Time of Frenzy

What of this "time of frenzy" - is it really the period following Betty's death?  That's what I first thought...but on rereading the first time Gardam uses these words, in the opening chapter - The Donheads - we find Filth, returning from Veneering's house - trying to get to sleep.  
"Perfectly in charge."
'This is not the time of frenzy,' he heard himself say out loud..." and then he goes on to recall the screaming child on the boat dock.

Is he saying that the separation from Ada when he was a four year old was the time of frenzy  -
Is he saying that Betty's death is not the time of frenzy?  That he will never let go like that again?

Do you see him grieving Betty's death?  Obiously he misses her presence - he's alone in the house now - no one to talk to.  But do you see grief?
At her funeral - "He feels nothing at all, as he moved among guests like a knight of old..."

Bellamarie, perhaps that is a question for Jane Gardam?  I had the same thought - how does she manage to keep all of these  details, characters and flashbacks straight - "How did she keep up with everything, writing such a complicated book?"   Do you think she might reveal her methods?

[straudetwo]

JoanP an Babi, clearly, Isobel is far ahead of Eddie in terms of maturity when they first meet. Researchers have long confirmed that girls are wiser as teens than boys of the ame age.  After Wales, Eddie attended all-boys schools, and Isobel was his first direct "lontact" with a girl.  That's to be expected whe schools are segregated.  It's not hard to imagine his reaction.  (I haae personal experience with school segregation, but that is immaterial at this point.)

For girls and women, the silent type of man who seems unapproachable, a little exotic,  often becomes an object of desire and, sometimes, hopeless love. The latter seems to have been true for Claire, as we see in the two chapters A Light House in this week's assignment. The story is that of O.F., from the very first chapter we know that Betty and Veneering are important parts of the story.  Next we meet the cousins, and, like satelites,  all the characters revolve around him.  If that assumption is accurate, does that mean their lives count only to the extent that they touch Edwrd's life ?

Babs and Claire are not sisters, and after Auntie May locks up the Dibbs' empty farmhouse, she's going to deliver the girls to "other people" until their respective parents come from India to claim them.  In Babs' case we're not really sure her parents ever came. (I need to look at this again.) The girls were deliberately separated after Wales (and will we ever find out why?), but Babs and Claire were in touch, sporadically, even though they had little in common, it appears, and didn't much like each other. As for the sexual orientation, Babs must have been bisexual because Cumbredge was her lover (she tells Edward), she was married (to Cumbredge ??) and now, roughly the same age as O.F., is in love with a young music student of hers, a "mere boy".  

Since we don't know what happened to the girls after Wales, we could speculate that they may have ended up in the Public/private school with Betty and Isobel. That's where they could have met, and the timing is right.
 
On questions for the author,  the other Gardam books I read were linear.  This one gives people pause.  But if asked about "methods", would Jane Gardam share them (if she has any), or would she be offended ? I wonder.

[bellamarie]

straude~

On questions for the author,  the other Gardam books I read were linear.  This one gives people pause.  But if asked about "methods", would Jane Gardam share them (if she has any), or would she be offended ? I wonder.

As an author myself, and in conversing with many of our authors in the past, I can assure you most authors are rarely offended by any questions their readers pose.  If anything they are most flattered and receptive in sharing and responding.  Jane says this book started as a short story for a Christmas article and then the following year she was asked for another Christmas article and so the second short story was written.  So... I wonder if the characters were made up as she went along, the chapter "A Light House" introducing Oliver and Vanessa to Edward for me seemed a bit out of place until it ends with them naming their son after Edward and the last sentence, "Thus is the world peopled." shows the next generation to follow.......

I really liked the interaction between Vanessa and Edward.  He seems to have played a bit of a mind game with Vanessa as far as marriage and having children were concerned.  I LOVED her reaction when she found the jewlery and realized who he really was.  She seemed mortified yet overwhelmed when she realized as she put it "Edward Feathers is Old Filth....Old Filth is a legend at the bar.  He was a wonderful advocate."  Their interaction has been my favorite part of this book so far!  I must say Jane, this was a very pleasant and unexpected turn in the book, and very welcoming. 

Okay so I may have gotten a bit excited and ahead of myself, and I know there is lots to discuss before this....but I really felt Vanessa's excitement and had to post while I'm in the spirit. 

[salan]

Joan P., I don't see Edward as grieving over Betty's death.  Instead, he seems rather numb.  He keeps repeating:  "Over.  Finished.  Gone.  Dead."  It's as though he is trying to realize that Betty is dead.  I know that when my husband died; it was about a year before I began to grieve.  I spent the first year regaining my strength from physical and mental care-giving.  I methodically and robotically took care of what was necessary.  Then, I began to grieve.  Everybody kept saying how strong I was--I wasn't, just numb....I think that Edward feels the same numbness.
Sally

[rosemarykaye]

I agree with Salan - I think he is rushing about in a kind of automaton state.

Rosemary

[Steph]

Oh Sally, you are describing me. People talk about how brave I am..But it was numb.. Disbelief.. I understand Edward and remember the totally divorced feeling.. Now 19 months later, I feel the anger at his leaving.. the aloneness that will be there always.
I loved Vanessa and her behavior and then to discover he was one of her heros.. The baby was rightly named, since she had not considered a baby until then..

[bellamarie]

Sally and Steph,  I have not lost a spouse, and know your grief is different then losing a parent, but I can relate to how you describe the numbness for the first year.  When I lost my mother who was my mother/father parent I went through the first year in a daze.  My three children and husband told me later they were really worried about me because I seemed so lost.  I see Edward needing to reconnect with someone or something that is safe and familiar to him.  Betty was his entire life, regardless of what their relationship lacked.  It was sad to read when Claire asked him if he had ever strayed and he said, "Good God No."  Then, "Yet his eyes were dazzling, hungry eyes, Clair thought how Betty had underestimated him.  And fooled him."  Is there any hope for Edward to find love and affection at this point in his life, or will he die a lonely grieving man?  

My sister lost her husband seven years ago, they were married for thirty seven years, they were so close, and he did everything for her.  People thought she could not survive without him.  She found a new strength she never knew she had. I have to say just recently she has found herself a companion through the internet and he is moving in with her as we speak, and she is so very happy.  Her two grown married sons never imagined their mother ever loving anyone but their Dad, but I must admit they seem happy that at her age she has found someone to share her life with.  So who knows, maybe Edward can too.  His taking off and driving is exactly what my sister did, and she shared with me about how she found herself on the highway late at night, crying so hard she almost got into an accident.  Numb is all she could feel.  I used to grieve for her and tell her constantly how brave and strong I saw her.  I'm not sure if she even heard me, or if those words seem empty to someone going through this.

Vanessa has been a refreshing welcoming character to this story.