Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online

[Babi]

 
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June Bookclub Online  Everyone is welcome!

Old Filth
 by Jane Gardam

"The opening pages of the book find Filth (Sir Edward Feathers), a retired but still unassailable old barrister whose reputation has grown to such mythic proportions that it obstructs the hard truths of a man so damaged by his past that he has found himself forever unable to love. It's only as Filth toddles gracefully into old age that he can begin to rediscover the parts of himself that he has locked away and come to terms with the dark secrets that made him the man he became."   (Reviewed by Maggie O'Farrell) The novelist,  Jane Gardam was born  in Coatham, North Yorkshire on July  11. 1928. Her title character's late-in-life questions about whether his life has had meaning are especially moving—and universal, given this author's own experience and age. “Both witty and poignant, this work is more than a character study; through her protagonist, Gardam offers a view of the last days of empire as seen from post-9/11 Britain.  Borrowing from biography and history, Gardam has written a literary masterpiece that retraces much of of the 20th century's torrid and momentous history.”   Library Journal

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Discussion Schedule for the coming week:

- June 14 - 19  The Time of Frenzy; A Light House; Wandsworth; A Light House  129-192
- June 20 - 25  Part Two: Scene:Inner Temple; The Watch; To Columbo  p. 193-219
- June 26 - 30   The Donheads; Chambers; Last Rites;  The Revelation; The Inner Temple Garden  p 220-290

Some Topics for Consideration
June 14 - 19

1.  Do you see Betty's death as the start of Filth's inward journey back in time?   In his own way, is he grieving for her?

2.  Were you surprised that the two had not shared a bed for 30 years?  Do you think their relationship was different  in the beginning? Why is he feeling lust for women now?

3.   "I feel, truly, filth."  Does he feel this self-disgust  each time he is called "Filth"?  Why does he feel this way?

4.  Veneering has compared Betty's voice with Desdemona's.  What might this say about her relationship with him?

5.  Filth says he's "headed to the future" as he goes off to visit "ghastly Babs."  Why?  What more do we learn about the horror in Wales?

6. When Filth finds himself in a confessional, he tells the priest he's "been more sinned against than sinning."  What does this mean?

7.  Is Claire a person of interest in the story - other than that she had a thing for Eddie in Wales?  Why would Eddie leave Betty's jewelry to her, especially the magnificent pearls?

8.  "If you've not been loved as a child, you don't know how to love a child. You need prior knowledge."  Do you agree with Filth on this?  Do you think most Raj Orphans would agree?  What do you think of the relationship between Claire and her son, Oliver?
 

Related Links:
 UK Legal System  (rosemarykaye);
 The British Empire;
 A Brief Biography of Rudyard Kipling;
 Kipling's "Baa Baa Black Sheep";

Discussion Leaders:   Traude  & Joan P

********************

BABI: -  JOAN, Betty, Claire and Babs all attended the same school at one point.
Don't know how long each of them was there, but Betty apparently kept
in touch with everyone. Actually, that was a duty for most of the women
of my family; the men rarely wrote a letter.
  That 'feeling nothing at all' at the funeral/reception is not unusual.
One can be rather numb for quite a while after a sudden death.

 You make a good point, TRAUDE, about the attraction of 'unapproachable' men.  That could very well explain why so many of the women in Eddie's life seem drawn to him.  And, of course, he was very handsome!

  Claire, at least, seems happy enough.   Her health is fragile, but she has a son who adores her and she doesn’t scare Old Filth away.  The son is a likable fellow,  and the somewhat self-important Vanessa gets shaken out of her complacency when she learns who 'Uncle Ed’ really is.  A legend!   And, you will note, “he became a great judge”.  Obviously, history holds a much higher opinion of Sir Edward Feathers as a judge than he does himself.
  I was amused, when Vanessa and Oliver marry,  that Babs attends and hits it right off with the vicar who was so eager to hear confessions.  He may have a gold mine in Babs.  

[bellamarie]

Babi~ Yes, the Vicar is a real hoot....he is ready and willing to hear everyone's confessions.  I like how he says to Edward, "There is only one judge in the end."  Edward seemed to think telling him he was a judge would impress him, or at least feel he had no need to confess, afterall he says he feels he has no sins. lol  Pretty funny how Edward fled the confessional.  Babs and the Vicar is an interesting couple...lolol

[Jonathan]

Edward fleeing the confessional is funny. It wouldn't surprise me if Edward turns out to be guilty as hell. Old Filth, as he admits to himself, is no paragon of purity.

And the vicar finding a confessional gold mine in Babs come as no surprise at all. Poor tormented soul. That was quite a shock she gave to old Edward, when he was greeted by the fleeing fourteen-year-old boy, when he arrived at Bab's door. What memories that must have brought back!

We need a map of England to accompany the old judge on his travels.

Old Feathers in a frenzy! As Joan has pointed out, it's a word he uses about himself. About the unruffled judge on his bench, or in his chair at the Inner Temple luncheon room. As others are accustomed to see him.

Old Filth's mind, at times, seems as untidy as Jane Gardam's storytelling technique. How true to life. Feelings throw old Eddie into a tizzie. He attracts women. Even at the funeral, perhaps especially at the funeral, looking like a knight of old, he catches Chloe's eye and she follows him home and offers to stay the night. Old Edward, at eighty, like he did at fourteen, feels a surge of lust, becomes confused, and begins to mutter his prayers. For his trip to the future, and of course he takes Betty along, he packs her Book of Common Prayer along with the recipe books and the jewellry. If only he had taken her advice on the road, and gone off to Madeira.

Even Vanessa finds him attractive before learning his true identity. It seems to me that Vanessa and Veneering are some kind of standard of normalcy in the book.

'Thus is the world peopled.' By chance and unthinkingly.

[JoanP]

A "frenzy of activity"  in here this morning!  I'm not sure whether we are finding Filth in a frenzy or numb in these days following Betty's death.   Can it be BOTH?   When he finds her among the tulips, the first thing he utters - "Keep your head."  It seems to me this must have been his mantra since he was a young boy.  He's going to make an effort to stay in control - again.  Weren't you touched when he first found Betty among the tulips?  - "kissed her hand and put it to his face."  This seems to be a sign of genuine affection.  I'm going to remember that when I catch myself thinking there is something strange about this marriage...

Babi writes -  'feeling nothing at all' at the funeral/reception is not unusual.
One can be rather numb for quite a while after a sudden death."  Sally and Rosemary - see him numb, acting as if he's in an automaton  state.  Why on earth is he driving?  Again - is he numb or is he in a frenzy?  
((Steff)) - I've been thinking of the comments both here and in the recent discussion in the Library, wondering if women are better equipped by nature - to reach out, to get out and join others following the death of a spouse, to admit to grief, to being alone.  I can see my own husband withdrawing, assuring everyone that he's fine.  The church ladies are reaching out to Filth, but he doesn't seem to want or need their company. When he gets in the car to find the cousins,
it seems he is doing what he thinks Betty would want him to do... Bella, do you really think he wants to see Babs because he wants to   reconnect with someone  safe and familiar to him?  I can't imagine that person would be Babs...although he did say that he wished he was going to see Claire.  (This was before the Light House visit...)
Betty died the day after the two had tried to update their wills in London.  At first I thought Betty might be intending to leave her jewelry - especially the "magnificent pearls"  to someone in the family.  One of Filth's cousins?  Do you think that Filth would have known this?  Would they have talked in over beforehand?

Judging from the way he tossed together a few of Betty's things - "presents"  for Babs - scarves, recipe books and a handful of jewelry (including the pearls) crammed into a jiffy bag - it sounds as if he really doesn't know what he is doing, nor does he know what Betty would have wanted done with them...

[JoanP]

Traude has observed that all the characters seem to revolve around Filth and asks,  "does that mean their lives count only to the extent that they touch Edwrd's life?"  Hmmm, I think that's accurate, Traude, judging from the way we receive glimpses into the lives of all of the others - without much depth or explanation, sympathetic or otherwise .

Isn't Babs a piece of work?  (From what we are allowed to see of her, that is.)
Why was she sobbing when she sees Edward?  She says she's brokenhearted, not for Betty - or for him.  Does she mean for herself?  Did Eddie break her heart?  Is the mystery about going to bed together as children cleared up now - sufficiently?

She seems  mad - what's that about showing her hand, her love to the 14 year old piano student?  Married to Billy Cumberledge?  Really?  She serves tea to Edward - Darjeeling tea. (did you ever taste it?  My son brought some back from India a few weeks ago - I've yet to open it.  Will do so this afternoon and come back and let you know if it was "refreshing" - and share some with you if it is. Have you tried it?  Did you know that the correct pronunciation is "Dacherling"?  I didn't.  You learn something new every day.)
Babs tells Eddie that he sent this tea to her for years, at Christmas.  "In memory of our childhood...you me, him, Betty and Claire."   Interesting.  It seems that these memories took place in India, then?  Surely the kids weren't drinking Darjeeling tea with Ma Didds.  Was Eddie in India?
Traude reminds us that the girls were sent from Ma Dibbs to India when their parents came to claim them.

Jonathan: - "Old Filth's mind, at times, seems as untidy as Jane Gardam's storytelling technique. How true to life."  I agree Jonathan, and I think that this discussion is going to have to be as "untidy" as Filth's mind and Gardam's storytelling technique.   This is impossible - but fun.  Exciting, don't you think?

Claire is a person of interest -  why do you think her chapters are called "The Light House" ?

[straudetwo]

Oh JoanP, how funny about Darjeeling tea. Who knew what the pronunciation is ?  I  had no idea.  And what Babs offered Edward was a bit "aged". I hope tit wasn't moldy.  !What did she drink instead, one wonderas  ...

Babs sobbed, I suspect, for herself, the  various turns her life had taken.  Was there any room for anyone else ??  We know that she and Claire were not "close".  If I accurately interpret what we read (and perhaps I do not), she was  not only bisexual   but in fact nymphomaniac - just consider he obsession with the young music student and, later, with the Vicar.(Not an exemplary one, was he )

I agree with , Babi in that there is much sadness in the book but gla that it is lifting -- what  with the am arvelous scenario  (send-up ??) between Vanesa and O.F. He never divulged who he was and she went on blabbering - the height of irony.

JoanP, I never tasted Darjeeling tea, but it was one of the birthday presents earlier this month. Not much was ever made of my birthday - but this LAST one was special.

[bellamarie]

Is Claire a person of interest in the story - other than that she had a thing for Eddie in Wales?  Why would Eddie leave Betty's jewelry to her, especially the magnificent pearls?

I felt like the chapter "A Light House' is where the book came alive for me.  It seems Edward had a bit of a crush on Claire and she on him.  He feels so at home at Claire's, sleeping overnight, relaxing in the hammock, etc.  Instead of asking why did he give the jewelry to Claire, I would ask, why not?  Of all the characters in the book so far, Claire seems to know Edward better than anyone, including Betty.  She loves Edward and sees his sensitive side he hides from others and himself.  She says, " He's made himself.  Made his impeccable, astringent self."  Claire does not see Betty as the person behind his success or his strength.  On the contrary it appears Claire knows of Betty's unfaithfulness.  

Isn't it interesting how Clair mentioned to Babs, "She had some wonderful rocks."  But when she realizes Edward has left her very expensive jewelry she isn't the least bit interested in keeping it, instead she says to give it to Vanessa.

Why did Babs say, "He's not himself Clair.  Betty's death removes barriers.  Its bringing corpses to the surface."  Claire says she can honestly say she has nothing to hide then Babs says, "Oh no?"  Laundry lists?  Then Claire says, "The Laundry man's here."

Why are they referring to him as the Laundry man?

My thoughts as to why this chapter is called, "A Light House" has a few meanings, when I looked up the definition of light it said, illumination, or its source; clarification: shed new light.  illumination as of weight: a light load.  Claire loves light all through her house.  Also she is a lighthearted person, she has joy and love with her younger son Oliver, she has many people around her that is not of serious nature.  Also, Edward seems a bit lighter when he is at Claire's house.  I like how the title of this chapter, A Light House describes the nature of Claire's lifestyle.  How did Claire seem to overcome Ma Didd's, when it is evident Babs and Edward have their demons to slay?



Now among many questions that are unanswered, I have yet one more....how did Claire happen to have the hat boxes that belonged to Edward's mother?  They triggered some eventful memories when Edward woke up and saw them.  She says, " The hat boxes were your mother's...I've no idea how they got here."  How could she NOT know how they got there?  Sometimes I find myself asking if these things are really happening or are they figments of his mind.  So many things that keep puzzling me.......

Ciao for now~

[JoanR]

Since I've read this twice, I've spotted a few things that I missed the first time around.

In Wales, at the Didds', after the catastrophe, Claire ran to the village for help while the other 3 piled into a bed together for comfort.
Claire was the pretty little "pink girl"  ( and still is in her old age!!) who got along fine in the local school and was probably not abused much by Ma Didds.
Babs could sing and was musically talented, was mistreated in the village school - had to wear a sign that said "ugly".  It was Babs that burst into tears when Eddie left with Sir.
When Auntie May arrived, Claire raised her arms for a hug, but Babs jerked away as if expecting a blow.

The tea that Cumberledge sends from India (his folks took him back there after the Wales episode ) is in memory of the 4 of them together in Wales.

I haven't seen anything anywhere to indicate that Babs is a lesbian nor for that matter, a nymphomaniac!  Isobel is our only lesbian.  Babs has in her old age become eccentric but not insane, slovenly in her living but capable of carrying on rational conversation.  The one irrational and over-the-line thing seems to be her adoration of her young student - and she knows it's not permissible.

Claire is the one who has the very friendly relationship with the vicar (not Babs) as she seems to have with all the gentlemen who help her - still the pretty little pink girl but now helpless as well.

I'm quite sure that I haven't gone beyond our assigned pages with all this - most of it is from back-tracking!!!

[JoanP]

Oh my, the Darjeeling tea is sooo good.  I worried when I read that Babs' container was old and moldy - checked to see if there was an expiration date on my tin - there was - March 2011.  That's not too bad.  I just brewed a cup - with a little honey.  I wish you all could taste it.  Do you have any in the house? - a shared experience would be fun.  Traude, brew up yours and let us know how you like it - Dacherling tea
So Billy Cumberledge becomes a little clearer then - he was one of the Wales kids.  Was he staying with the Didds - or was he in the school?  Has that been revealed yet?  I've forgotten.  JoanR, you say Billy was taken back to India after Wales - and so were Claire and Babs -   Do we know where Babs and Billy became lovers?  Did they really marry?

JoanR!  Good you're here!  I've worried that you were in the corner in a twist, trying to keep from spoiling.  Let's say this - you won't spoil anything.  We need your insights - especially now that you are reading the book for the second time.  It's amazing how much you see when you reread, isn't it?  Everyone, take note - it isn't Babs and the Vicar - it's Claire. 
And now I have a question - about the expensive jewelry.  Didn't Edward take it to Babs, initially?
How did Claire and then Vanessa end up with it?  I have forgotten, but JoanR has my back...she's rereading!

Bellamarie - thank you for "illuminating" information on THE LIGHT HOUSE.  I'll agree, Claire does seem all sweetness and light - but there's something remote about her - something that doesn't make me see her as a possible love interest for Edward...although he did seem comfortable at her home.  And after he returned home, our Filth seemed to have forgotten who Vanessa was - did you note that?  He didn't recognize her name, so he didn't go to her wedding.  Probably didn't even RSVP!

Back in the morning - I just came in tonight with the tea report...
Night all!

[straudetwo]

Only a very quick reply regarding Babs.

Yes, Claire was the Vicar's friend, the "boy priest" Edward had met in the church.
But on pg. 191, at the end of the second chapter titled A Light House , there're these sentences  on pg. 192 :

"She (Claire) attended the wedding (Vanessa's and Oliver's), the Vicar driving her. He did not officiate but enjoyed the fun and talked about sin to Vanessa's mother. Babs turned up with her hair short and blood-red. She and the Vicar got on famously and danced the night away."

[bellamarie]

JoanP~

Everyone, take note - it isn't Babs and the Vicar - it's Claire.  

The Vicar drove Claire to the wedding but they were not a couple, on pg 192, "She (Claire) attended the wedding, the Vicar driving her.  He did not officiate but enjoyed the fun and talked about sin to Vanessa's mother.  Babs turned up with her hair short and blood-red.  She and the Vicar got on famously and danced the night away."

JoanP,  I think you are remembering Edward giving Babs a package, but I don't think it was the expensive jewellery.  pg. 161 "He turned up here yesterday.  He only stayed ten minutes.  He brought me some recipe books but I can't find them."  

pg.  138 "He packed his ivory hair brushes, his Queen Mary cufflinks from the War and, rather surprising himself, Betty's Book of Common Prayer.  Maybe he'd give it to Babs.  Or Claire, if he ever found her.  He folded two of Betty's lovely jacqumar scarves, packaged up some recipe books and then, in a sudden fit of pinache, swept a great swag of her jewellery from the dressing-table drawer and poured it into a jiffy bag.  He put the scarves and recipe books into another jiffy bag and sealed both of them up."

So it seems he intended the recipes and scarves for Babs and the expensive jewellery for Claire.  Claire assumed her package was recipes since Babs told her that is what hers was.

Vanessa ended up with it because when they were leaving Claire told them to take the parcel with them.  pg. 189 " I think it's only recipe books.  Eddie wanted me to have them.  His wife's.  She never used them.  I don't want them.  They were meant for someone else.  Betty a dreadful cook, so they won't be thrilling, but they'd be her mother's. Quite historic.  Old Raj puddings from Shanghai. Tapioca."  " Ma. I'll put them in the bin."  "No, said Vanessa, "I'd like them.  Thanks"

Yes, I thought it a bit sad when I read this considering how much Vanessa raved about him after she found out who he was.  pg. 191  Filth was invited to the wedding six months later but could not remember Vanessa and could not think whom he knew in Bournemouth.  The groom's name rang no bell.  Some relative?  Was he Claire's?  But he refused the invitation."

I agree I did not see Claire and Edward becoming romantically involved.  Their time had come and gone.  It was just nice seeing how she still loved him and how with her he seemed so comfortable and relaxed together.  I really like Claire, Oliver and Vanessa and I liked Edward when he was with them.  It gives me hope for Edward.

Thanks for sharing the tea with us JoanP, nice to know it was good.  I have never tasted Darjeeling tea before but it has peaked my interest.

p.s. straude, seems we were posting at the very same time.  

Ciao for now~

[Steph]

Edward and the highways.. Oh me,, he had to be numb for that adventure. I think that he needed to reconnect with his youth. Obviously the two women were important to him, but not the male.. He never even mentions him. Edward is so lonely..I suspect Betty did not realize or care that she was the only person on earth that he cared about..

[Babi]

 Alas, Jonathan, new widowers are instant targets for every lonely,
unattached female in the vicinity.  Be warned!

 JOANP, perhaps the waning of the numbness brings on a frenzy of
activity, to keep the full knowledge of the loss at a distance. It
may take a long time to be ready to face the full reality of it; it
varies with the individual. Yes, I thought OF was genuinely fond of
his wife and was touched by his gesture when he found her. And his
packing of the 'presents', yes, he is just reacting emotionally. He's
not really thinking.

On the contrary it appears Claire knows of Betty's unfaithfulness.

Bellamarie
 It appears that everyone knew of Betty's affair. It doesn't appear
that she went to much trouble to hide it. Or was it all exposed in a
riot of gossip, I wonder? 
 Was Claire referring to OF as 'the laundry man'?  I thought that was just an excuse to get off the phone with Babs. She's tried to more than once already.

[bellamarie]

Babi,

Was Claire referring to OF as 'the laundry man'?  I thought that was just an excuse to get off the phone with Babs. She's tried to more than once already.

Yes, I am certain she was referring to Edward as the laundry man because she is on the phone with Babs, and Babs has forewarned her. "the iceman cometh."  Then Babs mentions the laundry list? when Claire says she has nothing to hide.  pg. 163  "Claire let her fingers stray about over the glass table-top, feeling for her butterfly-subduing pills.  And here came the old flamingo, the old crane, lean as a cowboy still. What?  Six-foot-three, and still melting my heart."  Well, he seemed to be carrying the parcel of recipe books.  "I must go now, Babs.  The laundry man's here.  And Babs, you're drinking too much.  Goodbye."  "Have you any luggage?  I hope you'll be staying the night?"  She asked at once.  Filth jack-knifed himself into a small, gold-sprayed Lloyd-loom chair and his knees were nearly up to his chin."

Considering these people were not in daily contact, they sure do seem to be up to date with all that's been going on.  Yes, Babi it does seem everyone knew about Betty and Veneering.  Maybe we the readers will soon learn how everyone seems to know.  I even got the impression that Babs and Claire were closer in contact then we are told they were.  Babs comes to Oliver's wedding which is contradictory to the recluse she appeared to be when Edward visited her.  Once again I find myself puzzled.............what's new? 

Ciao for now~

[JoanP]

OK, thank you - I see now.  Betty wanted Claire to have her jewelry.  This wish was going to be included in her Letter of Wishes, had she lived to write it.  However, I am stuck on the line that Bellamarie has quoted...
"...in a sudden fit of panache, swept a great swag of her jewelery from the dressing-table drawer and poured it into a jiffy bag."
Doesn't this sound sort of ...impulsive?  Rather than an attempt to carry out Betty's wishes?  And were the pearls - the "magnificent pearls" included in the jiffy bag?  Did you read that?  Does Vanessa have the pearls now?
I had assumed Betty got those pearls from Edward, but he seems to be careless with such an expensive strand of pearls if he knew their worth.  Would he cram them in a plastic bag?
We know the "guilty pearls" were from Veneering...and that they are buried in the back yard at Donheads.

Claire says - or thinks, "Betty's death removes barriers.  It's bringing the corpses to the surface."
How did you read that?  Am I alone in being reminded of the guilty pearls when I read those lines?  Will they find their way to the surface from their burial place?

[JoanP]

Steph - "Edward and the highways..  he had to be numb for that adventure. I think that he needed to reconnect with his youth  Maybe that's what was meant by Betty's death removing barriers?  While she lived, he did not look back."  

More talk of grief here - Edward "remembers the cause of his grief - Betty could no longer help him anymore."
-
Babi -"to keep the full knowledge of the loss at a distance. It
may take a long time to be ready to face the full reality of it."  Babi, I think Filth is beginning to face that reality.  The next morning he wonders why he came to visit  Babs at all.  And then he says - "Rather frightening what grief can uncover in you."  He doesn't seem to be completely oblivious to the way he's behaving.......

I'm really interested to learn more about the relationship between Betty and Claire.  Betty delighted in describing Claire to Edward - "a sunlit, lovely child grown plain."  Hmmm
He seems to have no disturbing recollections of Claire in Wales.  What about Billy Cumberledge?  Are you seeing hints that he was in Wales - at Ma Didds place?

I'm going to go have a cup of Darjeeling...did I mention I slept like a baby last night after that cup of tea?

[Jonathan]

I'm struck by how intensely Edward feels Betty's presence, hears her voice, expects counselling from her, evidently does not want to let go. On the other hand he does seem to want to move on.

The last dozen posts are the liveliest I've ever read. Thank you all for enlightening me on many points. Isn't Claire's House of Light a beacon of hope that we will understand all in the end? How differently she thinks of Edward than Babs does. Was there jealousy between these two?

Beware. The Ice Man Cometh. This, as Bellamarie points out, is what Claire hears from Babs on the telephone, and she is strangely moved. What ever did Babs mean by that?

[bellamarie]

JoanP~ 

Doesn't this sound sort of ...impulsive?  Rather than an attempt to carry out Betty's wishes?  And were the pearls - the "magnificent pearls" included in the jiffy bag?  Did you read that?  Does Vanessa have the pearls now?
I had assumed Betty got those pearls from Edward, but he seems to be careless with such an expensive strand of pearls if he knew their worth.  Would he cram them in a plastic bag?

This may help you with the pearls but it also leaves me with yet more questions....Vanessa is speaking to Oliver..pg. 190  "The recipe books,"  she called back.  "But it's not recipe books, it's a box.  It has gold clasps on it, and a drawer in it and--oh, good God."  Out of the box showered jewels.  Gold chains, brooches, earrings.  They glimmered on the kitchen table.  "Look! she said.  "Look at the jade!  Look at these blue things.  Look--at this!"  Out of a plush bag fell a magnificent rope of pearls.  "Oliver!  These aren't recipe books.  Here's a note."   Dear Claire[it said], I've given the recipe books to Babs.  Betty wanted you to have the trinkets.  They'll need cleaning and restringing and so on.  Some of them she hadn't worn for years.  But they're very much the real thing.  The pearls were given to me long ago.  Eddie

"But I can't have these.  I can't possibly keep them. There's thousands of pounds here.  Thousands!  Look--Aspreys 1940!  Look at this jade ring--it's like an egg!  Oliver!"  "I'll ring mother."  "She's delighted,"  he came back saying, "and you're to keep them."  "Did she say singular or plural 'you'?"  "Shall I ask her?"  "Not yet.  Let me think.  No--I don't have to think.  I won't keep them.  They'll think that's why I married you." "Come on."  he said.  "it's not going to be in the papers.  Nobody's to know we've got them but me."

So Jane wrote he threw them in a jiffy bag, yet Vanessa opens the parcel and its described as a jewelry box.  Edward knew the worth of the jewels because he states, "they are the real thing."  But now what puzzles me is he also says the pearls were given to him long ago.  What also puzzles me is that Oliver states, "nobody's to know we've got them but me."  If Claire mentioned to Babs about Betty having some "wonderful rocks" then why would she say keep them when Oliver called to tell her about the jewels?  Did she not want anything that belonged to Betty, or did Oliver not call her at all?   This is a bit puzzling to  me.  

So.....who gave Edward the pearls long ago?  Did they belong to his mother?  Did Oliver indeed call Claire and get her permission to keep the jewels or did he decide to keep them and not tell anyone they have them?  Also, if Edward says the pearls need cleaned and restringing, then he would have known the pearls Betty buried and wore all the time were NOT his pearls because of the condition they were in.  Betty seems to think up to her death that Edward was not aware of her pearls or her affair with Veneering, yet so many others seem to have known about them.  I suspect Edward knew much more than anyone was aware of. 

Jonathon, Interesting question, about whether Babs and Claire were jealous of each other.  Babs makes the point he turned to her when Claire went running away into the village.  Babs calls Claire and tells her he has brought her recipes.  Babs refers to Edward as the iceman cometh, and Claire refers to him as the laundry man.  What corpses are coming to the surface?  What is Babs worried about when she says the "laundry lists?"  Did someone die at Ma Didds, or rather she uses the plural, corpses.  Claire ran to get help and Babs, Billy and Edward all stayed in the bed together.  What did they need help with?

JoanP, My thoughts are that Betty and Claire were jealous of each other.  Claire does not seem to have anything nice to say about Betty, and Betty makes the statement as you pointed out, "a sunlit, lovely child grown plain."  Claire also points out how Betty underestimated Edward and fooled him.

Oh dear I sure wish I had some of your tea, I am up way too late, unable to sleep.

Ciao for now~

[bellamarie]

Not having any idea what an Asprey 1940's was my curiosity got the best of me.  Here is a link with pictures of them, apparently they are very expensive wristwatches.


http://www.vintage-wristwatches.co.uk/watches-catalogue?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=78&category_id=10

[Babi]

Yes, I see. You're right, BELLA. And I think the young vicar explains
Babs appearance at the wedding. She has found someone to take an
interest in her.
  "The iceman cometh".   Sir Edward does seem cold and distant to many
people. I'm not surprised that someone might refer to him as 'the iceman'.

[JoanR]

"The Iceman Cometh" is the title of a Eugene O'Neill play in which the "iceman" is death.  Do you think that has any relevance here?

[JoanP]

JoanR - Filth the iceman, an allusion to death?  Oh my.  There are certainly enough references to death, murder and corpses in these chapters, aren't there? Have you ever seen the play - or an adaptation of it?

I just had to look further into the 1939  O'Neill play for a clue.  Our author must have been familiar with it - to have used the entire title "The Iceman Cometh."   Don't you think?

" Hickey, (the iceman) who had earlier told the other characters first that his wife had died and then that she was murdered, admits that he is the one who actually killed her. The police arrive, apparently called by Hickey himself, and Hickey justifies the murder in a dramatic monologue, saying that he did it out of love for her.
Hickey got tired of his wife always forgiving him for his whore-mongering and began to feel guilty.

The play is one of O'Neill's most ambitious works, and bears the impression of having been written from a perspective of profound despair. It expresses the playwright's disillusionment with the American ideals of success and aspiration, and suggests that much of human behavior is driven by bitterness, envy and revenge"

Do you get any ideas?  A suggestion of where Jane G. is going with her plot?  Or perhaps she just uses this language to indicate that Filth is looked upon by these cousins as  aloof, indifferent - cold, icey... - as Babi points out.   She keeps us guessing with these little references, doesn't she?  It's easy to read right past them in following the plot, without noticing that they are perhaps, part of the plot.

Here's another one -
Veneering has compared Betty's voice with Desdemona's.  What might this say about her relationship with him?  Think about it.  What do you know about Desdemona?

[JoanP]

Bellamarie - gasp!  I remembered the jade ring - the jade the size of an egg - but FORGOT about the pearls.  I also forgot what a poor character Oliver was.  No one knows what was in the box, so they don't have to tell anyone?  It is THE magnificent pearls.  They weren't crammed into a jiffy bag at all!

And I presume that is Filth speaking when he says - "The pearls were given to me long ago".  Yes, more questions -  Whose pearls were they? If his mother's then  who gave them to him? And when?

Jonathan - asks if  Claire's House of Light is a beacon of hope that we will understand all in the end?  Some of you like Claire.  I see her as "incomplete" - off in a sort of dream world, not quite with it.  But her house is something else.  I'm interested in peeking into those hatboxes.  How on earth did Claire get them?  Weren't they Eddie's mother's?  Wouldn't it be more likely that the aunts would be keeping them for Eddie?  Or his father - why aren't they with his father?  I forgot about the time differences.  The flashback - Filth is 80 now - his father is probably gone.  Did his father send them to ...to Claire?  Nah.  So how did Claire get them?

We have so many questions - but perhaps not to send to Jane, just yet.  I think the questions will come, but only after we have finished reading her story.  Do you honestly think she is going to tie up all these loose ends at the end?

That's a gorgeous watch - thanks for hunting down the photo. Filth's father is wearing it in the photo at the aunts' home.  Must be a very wealthy man.  There are all sorts of indications that Filth stands to inherit a lot of money some day - but is always short of cash as a boy, as a young man.  Is this intentional on his father's part, I wonder?
Let's talk a bit about the letter he writes to his father - in a rage, we're told.  What brought this on?  He is quite eloquent when provoked, isn't he?

[bellamarie]

Oh JoanR, you have hit a nerve with me, as I was posting last night I had this eerie feeling that possibly O.F. may have had something to do with Betty's death.  I still can't help but wonder if there was a death or more than one at Ma Didds, because Babs referred to Edward as the" iceman cometh,"  and corpses being uncovered.  Although as JoanP stated it could just be the way Babs sees him.  I wasn't aware of the play so of course I thought Babs was referring to Edward's demeanor, I agree Babi, he does seem cold and distant, except since Betty's death its like he has come alive.  He sure is being haunted by her voice though.

JoanP,  Thank you for posting the plot of the play.  I am certain Jane knew the play and so it does make me wonder if she is setting us up for something about Betty's death or one at Ma Didds.  Okay you have peaked my interest who is Desdemona?  Guess I need to go google it.  lol

Ciao for now~

[bellamarie]

JoanP~

 "That's a gorgeous watch - his father is wearing in the photo.  Must be a very wealthy man."

Aha!  The Asprey 1940's watch!!!  If you check out the link I posted it is much like a Rolex.  Expensive indeed!

Yes, it is Edward saying the pearls were given to him long ago.  The is no doubt he and Betty are already wealthy or he would never give away such valuable jewels, regardless of what Betty's wishes were because there was no will since she died before they were able to process one.  That always nagged at the back of my mind that one day before she dies they were suppose to do their wills and didn't.   And, Claire states Betty had some "wonderful rocks" so why on earth would she be nonchalant and tell Oliver to let Vanessa have them?  These are thousands of pounds worth of vintage jewelry we are talking about and they are being passed around like "trinkets" as Edward referred to them, knowing full well their value.

Okay off to check out Desdemona.....

[Steph]

Try Othello.. Desdemona was quite a heroine..And sadly mistreated.
The jewels.. They had no children. Edward di dnot care for them. I think he thought of his two cousins and decided it would help one of them..

[JoanR]

Bellamarie - Desdemona was wrongfully accused of unfaithfulness in Shakespeare's Othello.  Significant?  Hmmm.

[bellamarie]

Oh JoanR, how very interesting......wrongfully accused of unfaithfulness.  We never have had any proof to date that there was an affair, just mere insinuations and the pearls Veneering gave to Betty.  Interesting indeed!

Steph, If its true Edward didn't care for the very expensive jewels, then why not?  They are worth thousands of pounds, and I just don't think he was trying to help out Claire or Babs because he left recipes with Babs.  Babs was living in the projects.  If he wanted to help anyone of the two it would seem she would be the one that needed the help.  

JoanP, All your questions are the same I have asked myself and posted!!  I sure hope Jane ties up all the loose ends.  If I remember correctly, JoanR has promised us, all will be revealed in the end.  Egads....I can't wait to get into the next chapters.  Okay, I will try to contain myself and go back and reread the letter as you have asked us to discuss.  I do remember Edward was adamant he did NOT want to return home.  I felt he would not get the best education returning to Malaysia or Singapore, where ever his father was at the time.   

Ciao for now~

[JoanP]

Let's go even deeper into poor Desdemona's wrongful accusation...
Why did her husband accuse her of being unfaithful?  What became of her?
The more you think about it, the more you have to wonder why Jane G. inserted her name into the story.

[bellamarie]

Oh JoanP, I think you are truly on to something.  I googled analysis of the character of Desdemona and am amazed at how Othello's tragedies, jealousies, and suspicions led him to kill his Desdemona.  Here is the link which gives the insight to Othello's frame of mind and struggles, before committing the act.

http://absoluteshakespeare.com/guides/essays/othello_characters_essay.htm

So if Edward did indeed murder Betty, then he is the "iceman cometh."  I find it interesting how this article explains the nature of Othello's character and it seems so true to form with Edward.  Dear me are we on a wild goose chase, or has our genius Jane G. given us a great story within a story?

I can't wait to read further.  My apologies for not being able to go back to the letter.  I got a bit busy today and then saw all the posts about Desdemona and couldn't resist researching Othello.

Ciao for now~

[JoanP]

Sure, it's far out that our Filth is the ice man who brought about Betty's demise.  But where can Jane G. be going with this?

Othello believes that Desdemona has been unfaithful - with Iago.  Iago has set her up - convinced Othello of her unfaithfulness - Othello believes him.  Desdemona's world is over.

Jonathan, were you joking, or serious when you wrote  of Edward fleeing the confessional - "It wouldn't surprise me if Edward turns out to be guilty as hell. "  Edward had just stated that he felt he was sinned against, rather than a sinner.  

When I suggested going back to the letter, I was thinking out loud, wondering whether the young man is going to meet with his father at last -   I think he'd be going east to avoid the war - and then return to the UK to finish his education...

[bellamarie]

I have to agree, I have a feeling our Edward is going to turn out to be a very bad guy.  Maybe he finally takes out on Betty all the wrong that has been done to him that the has vented up inside of himself.  It mentions the tragedy Othello feels.  And to think I was not liking Betty too much.  So if he killed her, how did he do it for her to slump over her tulips.  Poison in the flowers........lololol  Okay just kidding.  

No wonder why Betty is haunting him!!!!

He seems to have gone through life way too controlled for someone who was abused as a child.   Oh dear, is it too soon to begin reading book two?  lol

[straudetwo]

Great posts ! lots of imagination!

JoanP, re #188. The real villain in the piece is not Othello, it is Iago, Othello's ensign, who managed to make Othello believe that Desdemona had been unfaithful.  She was in fact innocent.   Othello is known also as "The Moor of Venice".

Who knows what Veneering meant by that offhand remark. Did he know his Shakespeare ? If we believe O.F., Veneering had a "substandard"education"  .  We really get to know  Veneering in the companion book. What we see of him in this book, is not especially endearing (IMHO).

We might give a thought to the "guilty" pearls, apparently identical to those Edward had given her, the ones she buried in the tulip bed.

For my part I do not believe O.F had anything to do with Betty's death. Why on earth would he do such a thing ? He couldn't do without her. She was his rock!   Veneering called on the day of the trip to London. She could not get over the thought that his son was dead.
We are not going to find a definitive answer in this book. As I said,  it is possible that a large number of fans wrote to Gardam and wondered about O.F., Betty and Veneering, and that's (perhaps) one of the reasons why she wrote The Man in the Wooden Hat.  

They returned from London, both tired, Betty looking ill.  The very next morning she started planting the tulip bulbs (which were already in the house the day before when Veneering called, you remember).  But her strength waned and gave out. For all we know, she could have died of a broken heart, couldn't she ?

In a way, Joan, both Claire and Babs are "incomplete", that's because we have only a partial picture of them; we see them only when Edward is around.  In Wales it is obvious that the girls were not close, or else they'd have huddled together, especially after a "tragedy: or a "horror'. One is dark (she even "leans" darkly against the out house), the other one pink (in age she is silvery). To stay with the image you have, JoanP, it is chiaro-scuro = light and dark.  Still.  Claire in her light-filled house, Babs in the presumably messy semi-darkness,  something alive  that was not a dog running over Edwafrd's feet.  Her conversation did not make a great deal of sense and she may not have been obe. (Claire talked to her about drinking on the phone.) What a welcome for a long-time friend - who had properly annonced his visit !  No wonder Edward fled.

Yes, I agree that they were jealous of each other, and kept up a loose contact. But notice a that Claire did not tell Babs, when she called, that a Mercedes was slowly driving by. Instead she said "The laundry man is here." Frankly, I took that as an excuse to get off the phone.

Babs may  well have been familiar with Eugene O'Neill's play written  50 years earlier, but, like Babi,  I'm inclined to believe that
The Iceman Cometh was more a reference to Edward's usual demeanor.

[straudetwo]

Aha -- well, "guilty as hell"? Hmmm

Perhaps. But I've read the companion book.
Let me assure you, Edward did not do in his wife.

[bellamarie]

straude,

We are not going to find a definitive answer in this book. As I said,  it is possible that a large number of fans wrote to Gardam and wondered about O.F., Betty and Veneering, and that's (perhaps) one of the reasons why she wrote The Man in the Wooden Hat. But I've read the companion book. Let me assure you, Edward did not do in his wife.

Oh shucks, you have spoiled all our fun trying to solve our mystery of Othello, Desdemona, Edward and Betty.  I was rather enjoying our sleuthing and the possibilities of the likeness of the two connected.   lolol  Oh well, I suppose that means I can stop searching through Othello.    I learned more about Shakespeare's play than I ever would have,  since I know very little of his plays.  I have to shamefully admit I was reading Agatha Christie and Danielle Steele when I should have been reading the Classics.   

Okay JoanP. guess its back to the drawing board.  I still think Claire did not intend to lie to Babs referring to Edward as the  "laundry man,"  because just prior Babs mentions the laundry list.  Oh who knows, since straude knows the ending and sequel I suppose I will take his word on that also.  Now I am back to being puzzled instead of excited about solving a murder. I must say I am a bit disappointed to learn we will not be finding "definitive answers in this book."   But then where does that leave JoanR's opinion, all will be revealed?  Off to bed I shall go with my disappointment........

Ciao for now~

[Steph]

I did not get excited about Desdemona.. but then I did not think it was nearly that important.  We never learn all about any character in any book,, Just what the author uses in the book.
Edward is being portrayed as a repressed person so far in the book. He really is not quite sure about life and I suspect always has been this way. Everyone left him, his mother, hisfriends, his substitute family, his father,, then the cousins,,All in all Betty was his rock.. And possibly his career, although now he seems down on it,

[JoanP]

Steph, I can understand Edward's feelings of repression - he's had enough in his life he wants to forget...but not the self-loathing so much.  Is it because he feels unloved, that he feels he must be unloveable?
While reading these chapters, I noted Filth making this comment: "I feel, truly, filth."   But I didn't note the context.  Did you?  Why  would he say  something like this?   Does he feel this  same self-disgust  each time he is called "Filth"?  

From what you've read  (in this book , can you tell if he felt his Betty loved him?
I sensed a willingness to look the other way - to not want to face the fact that she may have been unfaithful.

...which brings us back to Veneering's comment - in which he has compared Betty's voice with Desdemona's.  "Desdemona" - the wife wrongly accused of being unfaithful to her husband, must have been on Jane Gardam's list to include in this story - in some way.  
Can we consider this scenario then?  Pehaps Betty has NOT had an affair with Veneering.   Did you ever hear her say anything that would indicate that she returned his affection?  I haven't, though I recognize that we are hearing the story from Filth's viewpoint - and he doesn't want believe Betty loves another.  
 If Veneering tells Betty she sounds like Desdemona in her denial of feelings for him...- I can see where she would sound just like Othello's innocent Desdemona..

No need to jump ahead of schedule, Bella - Traude has burst the bubble that there has been a murder in the tulip garden.  I don't think we ever really considered this was that kind of a story.  But somehow, Betty's life has been ruined - she is not looking forward to living out her years with her husband in the Donheads...

Looking forward to hearig from everyone - at this point, how do you see Filth - a repressed man - or a man guilty of something he is not proud of - that would cause  him to say - "I feel, truly, filth."   ?

[ALF43]

SNAFU for me this summer but here I am and I've just finished reading all of your posts.  As usual, the participants make the book discussion so interesting.  Everyone is really into this story.

I feel very sorry for Edward and do not see even a fraction of unkindness or mean spirit in him.  I see him as a forlorn, old man who is reminiscing and allowing himself for the first time in his life to actually FEEL the pain and sorrows (that's the only Shakespeare I can account for in this book) of his neglected soul.
 I agree Joan, I believe that unless you have experienced love it is difficult to project any love to others.  He has missed the fundamental security that is so important to our upbringing.  I agree with Steph that Edward being unloved, practically an orphan, shifted hither and yon his entire life would make him feel the "filth" (self disgust as Joan points out) of his being.
 I like him, am rooting for him and thus far dislike Betty more than any other character.  I can't see him as a murderer at all.
 I have my own ideas about Betty and the pearls but will withhold comment just now. 
No I do not believe that he felt his wife loved him but then again--how would he know what love felt like?

[Babi]

 
 Do you suppose those 'hatboxes' were originally packing boxes for young Eddie
when he was sent to Wales?  There they would have been in storage somewhere, and
when he was packed up and moved on again, with the cousins, I'm guessing the hat
boxes wound up going with Claire. She was only..what..six?  Someone else would
have done the packing, and years later she really has no idea how they came to be
in her possession. I tend to look for a logical and reasonable explanation where
I can.

  Personally, I think Eddie's cash shortage was due to his aunts. I'm convinced
they were greatly enjoying the money their brother was sending regularly, and
that Eddie won't see it until it is literally wrested away from them.

  No,  no, I don't think Betty was murdered. The scene leading up to her death
hinted strongly that it was impending.  Whatever else Gardam might have meant by
mentioning Desdemona, I don't believe it was some hint of murder.  And Betty's
"haunting" is not at all angry or bitter.  It's familiar and typical of her while
she was with him.

   I do like your analysis of light-dark, TRAUDE.  It does fit beautifully the
two cousins and their roles.

  I do think, JOANP, based on Betty's sadness when she learned of Teddy Veneering's
death, that she did care about Veneering.  It does not necessarily follow that
she became involved in an affair with him.  Old Filth, and others,
have commented on Betty's honesty and integrity. The only deceit I can find anywhere
on Betty's part, was that she had accepted a gift of pearls from Veneering. And
even those she did not hide from Eddie; she just knew he would never notice.
   I grant you it is not very likely that a man would give such a gift to a woman he
was NOT having an affair with, so the issue remains 'up in the air'.

[rosemarykaye]

I agree about the aunts pocketing the money.  Isn't there a bit where someone - is it Edward's father or the aunts themselves? - refers to his having lived with them "all these years", when in fact he has hardly been there. One of them is even reluctant to give him money when he gets on the boat, saying he won't need any.

Has anyone else seen the old TV series "Tenko"?  The scene in which Singapore falls is still vivid for me - the mothers and children go down to the shore to be evacuated by ship, the ships are seen coming towards them, then a little boy looks up at his mother.....and you realise that they are in fact flying the Japanese flag.

Rosemary