Author Topic: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online  (Read 126653 times)

Babi

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #280 on: June 25, 2011, 09:08:02 AM »
 

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.


June Bookclub Online  Everyone is welcome!

Old Filth
 by Jane Gardam
"The opening pages of the book find Filth (Sir Edward Feathers), a retired but still unassailable old barrister whose reputation has grown to such mythic proportions that it obstructs the hard truths of a man so damaged by his past that he has found himself forever unable to love.
It's only as Filth toddles gracefully into old age that he can begin to rediscover the parts of himself that he has locked away and come to terms with the dark secrets that made him the man he became."   (Reviewed by Maggie O'Farrell)

The novelist,  Jane Gardam was born  in Coatham, North Yorkshire on July  11. 1928. Her title character's late-in-life questions about whether his life has had meaning are especially moving—and universal, given this author's own experience and age.
“Both witty and poignant, this work is more than a character study; through her protagonist, Gardam offers a view of the last days of empire as seen from post-9/11 Britain.  Borrowing from biography and history, Gardam has written a literary masterpiece that retraces much of of the 20th century's torrid and momentous history.”
  Library Journal  
click on map twice to enlarge

Discussion Schedule for the coming week:


- June 26 - 30   The Donheads; Chambers; Last Rites;  The Revelation; The Inner Temple Garden  p 220-290


Some Topics for Consideration
June 26 - 30


1.  What does the easy friendship between Filth and Terry Veneering reveal about what had happened in the past?

2. Writing his memoirs did not come easy to Filth.   Were you disappointed they weren't included in this story?  What do you think he included?

3.  Why does  Loss's defection seem to Eddie a metaphor for his life?  Does he bear him any ill feelings?  Why would he take his address book? Why might he have demanded Eddie's father's watch?   Do we know what became of his father?

4.  At the end of the voyage, how  was Eddie's  condition diagnosed?  Can you see a reason why his diagnosis might affect his future?  

5.  How did he get assigned to the Queen's guard?  Why would Queen Mary take such an interest in Edward? Was this believable?

6. What did his brief interlude with Isobel reveal to each of them?

7. What does Filth's heart attack make him realize about his life? Is his memory fading?

8.  What did Claire's letter reveal about the horror in Wales?  Had you figured out what it was?    Were you surprised at what Filth revealed in his confession?

9. Is Filth at peace with himself at the end?  Were you satisfied or unsatisfied  with the ending?

10.  What do you think Jane Gardam accomplished with this  novel?
 


Related Links:
 UK Legal System  (rosemarykaye);
 The British Empire;
  BBC interview with Jane Gardam on Old Filth, 2006;
 A Brief Biography of Rudyard Kipling;
 Kipling's "Baa Baa Black Sheep";


Discussion Leaders:   Traude  & Joan P
Actually, Albert asked for the watch, and for reasons I can't imagine
Eddie gave it to him! The address book, tho', 'Albat Ross' did swipe.

 Returning to England from that disastrous voyage, Eddie is terribly sick
and we see some old acquaintances rallying around, including Isobel.   Eddie finally reaches out to Isobel as to a savior.  He wants nothing further to do with his aunts and says he wants to be near to Isobel.  “Somehow.  Forever.”   “Child”, she answers, and is gone.  
  Did she come back?  Did she help him find a place near her?  With her?  Or did she ‘defect’  also?  Which might explain  Old Filth’s reaction when she wrote that letter after Betty’s death.

  Eddie recovers and goes off to join the Gloucester Regiment. which in
turn assigns him to a spot in Queen Mary's guard.  Queen Mary has  a
soft spot for stammering young men,  have a son who stammers. (The King's Speech.)  
   That scene with the Colonel of the Gloucester Regiment was hilarious!  I would love to see that played out.  Was Eddie really that naive?  

"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

serenesheila

  • Posts: 494
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #281 on: June 25, 2011, 03:36:53 PM »
JOANP, I doubt that the incident with the buttermilk girl left him scarred for life.  So, I am expecting that it is whatever happened at Ma Dibbs.  It will be nice to know.

I began the last section of the book, today.  I won't give anything away.  Just want to say that the more I read, the more confused I am.  It jumps around so much, that when a new time period begins, I have trouble remembering who someone is.  In this chapter, Clo he is mentioned, and I cannot remember who she is!

Sheila

rosemarykaye

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #282 on: June 25, 2011, 04:05:24 PM »
Sheila, I am reading it too and I think she is the neighbour (now, not in his past)

Rosemary

PS - and this is my second reading!  Still confused!

Jonathan

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #283 on: June 25, 2011, 04:17:43 PM »
Chloe is the kind lady at Betty's funeral, who aroused such strong feelings in Sir Edward. Guilty feelings? Now she's back in lacy mauve and a perm and waving a cake.Ha! There's just too much hilarity in the book that prevents one from feeling too sorry for our grand old man.

Why does Eddie give the watch to Albert Ross? To seal a new friendship, would be my guess.

Why Old Filth? That remains the biggest unanswered question for me too. Does it really reflect Sir Edward's feelings about himself? I don't buy the Failed in London...business.

Colombo, Joan, I believe, is the capital city of Sri Lanka, then Ceylon. I had forgotten that Japan had reached that far in its amazing advance across the Pacific and Asia.

bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #284 on: June 25, 2011, 04:27:04 PM »
I think what the buttermilk girl did to Eddie was common practice for her.  He was naive, but was not stupid enough to give her the watch.  I didn't see what happened that night having much negative effect on Eddie, if anything I think he was feeling pretty happy about the fact he had sex for his first time with someone who knew what to do.  lol  

Shelia,  "Just want to say that the more I read, the more confused I am."

Welcome to the club of confusion.

Rosemarykaye, I honestly could not see myself ever reading this book a second time.  With all due respect, I have not cared for the style and method.  The jumping around has frustrated me.   Off to finish the book, since we begin the discussion tomorrow. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #285 on: June 25, 2011, 05:11:04 PM »
I for one am extremely grateful to Rosemary for rereading the book - and for helping us to understand the legal system, the nature of the OBE awards and so many other Briticisms in need of translation!

What is confusing me now  - I've been reading The Man in the Wooden Hat since yesterday - as well as finishing Old Filth - and find it difficult to remember what I have learned at the end of Filth and in the in the next book.
  I've a question for you -
Would you like to get Man in the Wooden Hat and read it yourself - (it is extremely fascinating to get the rest of the story - from the same author.) or would you like those of us who have read it - to fill in what we learned  for you?

IF we did this, we'd wait until after we've finished talking about OLD FILTH.  What do you think?



JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #286 on: June 25, 2011, 05:25:36 PM »
Oops - I forgot what I was going to say when I came in here - about Eddie's sickness and about those bananas.  The only thing Eddie ate that Loss did not, seems to have been those 39 bananas in Freetown.  That was a lot of bananas.  I thought maybe they were those tiny ones...

My husband was in the Peace Corps in Sierra Leone outside of Freetown - spent a lot of time in Freetown.  He said they were growing on trees in large clumps - and remembers plantains - but not tiny bananas.  Said he'd get sick too if he ate that many.  I googled Freetown and bananas - and found this - Freetown and bananas

When you come to the end of the book, there's a page of Acknowledgements, in which the author wrote about her husband's experience in Freetown - eating 37 bananas - with no ill effects.  Something else is making Eddie so sick...

See you back here tomorrow!
 

rosemarykaye

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #287 on: June 25, 2011, 05:31:54 PM »
Joan - I think I will read it myself, but I am still happy for you to fill us in, it won't spoil the reading of it for me.

I still think Jane Gardam is a genius.  If any of you have enjoyed this book, please do try her "Bilgewater" or "A long way from Verona" - they are quite different but just wonderful, IMO.  They are both about young people.

I know Old Filth is confusing - as I said, I am still confused! - but I think that's because Edward is confused, his memories are confused, he is trying to sort it all out in his head.

Rosemary

bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #288 on: June 25, 2011, 06:14:02 PM »
JoanP, I second that about having all of Rosemarykaye's knowledge.  I hope I was not being rude saying I could never see myself reading this book a second time.  ALL of her insight made it so much more helpful for me.

I want to read the Man in the Wooden Hat myself.  Thanks for the offer to share.  I can only imagine how you would get mixed up with which book you read what from.....lolol  One is enough for me at a time!

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanR

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #289 on: June 25, 2011, 07:41:57 PM »
I think it would be absolutely great if we could read "The Man in the Wooden Hat" tgether following "old Filth"!  I plan to re-read it anyway and it's so much more enjoyable with all of you.  It answers so many questions and gives us such a great filling in of the background.  Let's do it!!!!!!!!  Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll follow Rosemary's suggestions and look for the titles she   suggested -  Thanks, Rosemary!

JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #290 on: June 25, 2011, 08:05:30 PM »
I'm game - Man in the Wooden Hat, anyone else?  Following the conclusion of Old Filth - a small informal group?

CallieOK

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #291 on: June 25, 2011, 08:08:45 PM »
I've already read "The Man In The Wooden Hat" and have been sitting on my hands  :) to keep from posting that you really must read it as a follow-up.  For one thing, it's much easier to follow; for another, it's like a "prequel" to Old Filth and also winds up the story.

straudetwo

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #292 on: June 25, 2011, 09:36:05 PM »
I just lost a post - the computer is acting up again. Trying  again.

I was responding to Sheila's post re Chinese dwarf.  ee pg. 207.

What Eddie saw entering the\the cabin. Two bunks so narrow that they looked like shelves, each covered by a grey blanked.  Sitting cross-legged on the "better" one s a boy who  looks like ten, performing tricks with cards. Pg. 207.
He was an Oriental and lappeared to be about ten years old. His body, however, seemed to have been borrowed to fit the cabin and his body was that of a child of six. The crossed legs looked very short, the feet dainty. The features, when you looked closer, were interesting for they were not Chinese though the eyes were narrow and tilted. Je was not Indian and certainly not Malay. After thirteen years, Eddie still knew a Malay. The boy's skin was not ivory, or the so-called "yellow" uy robust and ruddy.

Asked whether id a professional (card-shsharp), the boy said, "You could look at it in that way. I'm Albert Loss/ I
d a;bert Ross - I have Scottish blood - but I can't say my Rs, being also Hakka Chinese."

A day or so later Ross said "I'm also rather. .witty. I'm a master of languages as well. I could teach you Malay." Pg. 209

Eddie L "I speak Malay. I was orn there."
Ross : "Mandarin then ? Hindi. All one. Nice watch."  (He clearly had his eyes on that right away.)

On pg. 209 Ross said, "They didn't end me to England ntil I was ten. They didn't calal it Home. They weren't Raj."  Later he referred to his Hakka stock again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakka_people

straudetwo

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #293 on: June 25, 2011, 09:56:04 PM »
Babi, I agree, "swiped" was technically not the right word,  but I used it deliberately.
.
Albat Ross asked for it, but it really a command.
Eddie gave the same answer as he had to "nice watch".  He said "It was my father's."

But Ross was not to be put off.
"I may need it," he said.  

The masked face. The humorless, cunning, dwarf's eyes., thinks Eddie.

"Yes, of course," said Eddie,  took off the watch and put it in Ross's outstretched hand (as if under hypnosis).





bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #294 on: June 25, 2011, 09:59:23 PM »
I am ordering The Man In the Wooden Hat and would love a follow up discussion to help us see Betty's perspective!
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

straudetwo

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #295 on: June 25, 2011, 11:01:15 PM »
JoanP,  what a great idea to discuss The Man in the Wooden Hat right on the heels of Old Filth next.I'd like to take part.

There're  two sides to every story.   We are about to conclude Eddie's.  Now it's Betty's turn. JG is unsurpassed.

ursamajor

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #296 on: June 26, 2011, 07:34:56 AM »
I asked for Man in the Wooden Hat at the library last week.  I should be able to pick it up sometime in the near future.  I hope it is less confusing than OF. :-\

JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #297 on: June 26, 2011, 07:52:50 AM »
OK, good,  that makes six of us, Ursa. - Let's plan to meet informally- right here - after July 1 - to share what we have learned from The Man in the Wooden Hat.  (We find out in the very beginning who that man is - but not what the wooden hat is all about. ;))  It is very easy to read - probably because we are so familiar with all of the characters and their history.

Let's be very careful not to talk about Man in Wooden Hat at all this week.  We want to consider Old Filth on its own - as if the sequel - or prequel as Callie puts it - does not exist.  
*Let's consider the information JG has kept for the end and finally revealed in these very last chapters - and what we still don't know.  
*We've kept a list of questions you've posed during the discussion - wll dig them up and see how many of them have been addressed.
* We'lll also put back the    BBC interview with Jane Gardam on Old Filth, 2006 into the heading.  You might want to read it now that you have finished the book -  
*  Be sure to post additional questions to the author, now that we have finished the book.  Hopefully she will come up with a response this week to the questions already before her.  I hope we didn't overwhelm her.



What about Betty and Veneering?  It certainly seems there was an affair - I can understand the enmity, the coldness, the distance between the two men - still do not understand why Veneering has moved so near to Filth.  But I wonder what you make of the friendship that has developed between them?

Hopefully everyone has finished the book - and there won't be any spoilers this week.  Shout if you're still reading!

A lovely, sunny, mild day here in Arlington, VA.  No excuse to avoid  the garden...see you later!

Babi

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #298 on: June 26, 2011, 08:58:14 AM »
I agree with Sheila.  While Eddie may have been somewhat embarrassed
by the episode with the buttermilk girl, I also got the impression he was
relieved to finally lost his virginity.
  I did so much enjoy that parallel episode with the much older Eddie,
resting with his injured ankle in the same place he was once stationed.
 I enjoyed the chatter of the young serving girl whose grandmother had served Queen Mary.  And Old Filth’s  pleasant, even humorous,  responses.  This is something we haven’t seen much in him and I liked it.
  Eddie, free in London, and making straight for Isobel.  Talk about a really unstable, changeable relationship!   And Queen Mary is a wise old bird.  I don’t think she had any doubts as to how Eddie had really spent his day in  London.

  Speaking of how little we know of Betty,  for the first time I find something indicating that Eddie married Betty sometime after he went to
Hong Kong.  He speaks of lonely stays in Hong Kong, Singapore,  Dacca,  before he’d been “married and able to take Betty with him.”

 
   


   
  A small glimpse, with Queen Mary, of some of the ‘make-do’ that England had to improvise during the war.  Pineapple jam really made from turnips?   That one I’ve never heard before.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

rosemarykaye

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #299 on: June 26, 2011, 09:22:33 AM »
Babi - what I can't understand is why on earth they called it "pineapple"!  It's not as though we normally have pineapple jam.  I should have thought they would have called it plum or something.  And what happened to the plum trees anyway?  I will have to consult my mother.

Rosemary

rosemarykaye

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #300 on: June 26, 2011, 09:27:47 AM »
Joan - I have finished the book.

Fine day here in Edinburgh, after torrential rain yesterday - really miss my garden on summer Sundays - but - halleleujah! - we are almost there with our purchase of a house, at last.  If we get it, it is in a small village in East Lothian, the countryside to the east of Edinburgh - the garden has a pond, something I always wanted in my last house as I hoped that if I got some toads they would eat all the rampant, bedding plant munching, slugs.

Husband and I were just saying the other night how, when we first move, we will be saying things like "Wow! Television!", "two bathrooms!"  "Dishwasher!" - but most of all I will be saying  "GARDEN!"

Rosemary

Steph

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #301 on: June 26, 2011, 10:04:03 AM »
Rosemary,, my husband used to put out beer in a saucer for the slugs. It seems to kill them, although my Dad swore by salt.
I must finish the book. I would love to read The Man with the Wooden Hat, but as I am leaving for t he mountains, dont have any way to get it. I will try and keep tuning in on my lap top, so that I can join the discussion, then when I get back on the first of August will try and order it..
Stephanie and assorted corgi

Jonathan

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #302 on: June 26, 2011, 12:01:22 PM »
Confusion - the word keeps coming up. I'm in happy agreement with Rosemary when she says that Jane Gardam is a genius. Did she find the complications of OF's life too great for even her wonderful imagination? Making a second book necessary. Or did she make it deliberately brain-taxing?

What a beautiful scene to start off this last section. Filth and Veneering are now sociable cronies, playing chess twice a week and going out for dinners. Actually, Veneering has departed this life, but his memory is alive and well for Filth. Both have been working on puzzles now late in life. Memoirs for the one and a garden variety jigsaw for the other.

We wont tax our addled brains,. the one says to the other.

That pretty well sums up the challenge of this book. LOL It sure beats Shakespeare's idea of the final scene in life. The Wooden Hat calls on Homer for an understanding of these two great antagonists. That's all I'm saying for now.

bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #303 on: June 26, 2011, 12:24:16 PM »
I have finished the book and am anxious to begin the discussion, although I have a busy Sunday afternoon so will have to check back later.

Rosemarykaye, How wonderful to hear you will have your new home and a garden!!! I love my backyard and find much serenity in it.

I do have to say that yes, I love the fact that Edward and Veneering were able to become good friends.  At their age in life, being neighbors how silly would it be to carry a grudge when it would serve no purpose? 

I do feel as though finishing the book has given me the insight to settle my satisfaction where Edward, Babs, Claire and Cumberledge are concerned.  Many inconsistencies, IMO are in these last chapters but I am willing to agree with the quote Jonathon posted, Edward and Veneering.... "We won't tax our addled brains."  lolol

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

ursamajor

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #304 on: June 26, 2011, 01:46:11 PM »
I really didn't understand what function Cumberledge performed in the book - we never really see him as a person, really a bystander to the action.  Edward seems to be haunted by the time at Mrs. Dibbs', but he doesn't seem to feel guilt for her death, although in one sense he caused it.  That child had so many assaults on his personality it's a wonder the adult functioned as well as he did.

Someone who was the offspring of missionaries once told me that missionaries' children never really feel at home anywhere, and relate best to others who grew up as missionaries' children.  I would think the children of the Raj were similar.

JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #305 on: June 26, 2011, 09:32:28 PM »
I think so too, Ursa.  The only Raj Orphan we saw in the book who turned out okay was Claire - who on the surface seemed okay - until you read her letter.  Our Teddy doesn't like the letters he gets from Claire and Babs, does he?  Tears them up immediately.  No rereading. 
He's having a hard time facing the Wales episode - maybe because he looks at it differently than the girls do.  
Maybe Cumberledge turned out okay too.  You're right, Ursa, he's not clearly drawn - just a poor pathetic victim who caused the others to rise up  to protect him.

Bella, I guess Filth and Veneering became friends by default - there was no one else around.  But they really did turn out to be friends, didn't they? More than the chess games,  Veneering turned Filth on to music, art and literature...in return Filth introduced V. to ornithology.  I'm wondering if JG is also a birdwatcher.
 
Remember how we dismissed Veneering's references to Desdemona, Midsummer's Night's Dreams, etc.?  It turnes out he did read - Shakespeare. Tried to get Filth to read Patrick O'Brien - but Filth said (with good reason) that he hated the sea.  Have  you read any of Patrick O'Brien?  I've intended to... I love the sea.

As you say, it is silly to hold a grudge...and I'd agree, except I don't know what happened between Veneering and Betty.  If it turns out that she was unfaithful to her husband, it seems that it would be more than just a "grudge."   And we also don't know why Veneering is living next door to Filth - he came after Betty died, didn't he?  From the way the two have become so comfortable together, there must be an explanation somewhere.  Perhaps that is why JG wrote the second book.  I'm looking forward to understanding this relationship - though it isn't really important to know right now - The important thing is that Filth did have a friend and peaceful, happy times at  the end of his life.  You know, he seemed to have the same kimd of relationship he had with Betty - companionship...

Rosemary, do let us know as soon as you get the house!  The garden.  I love my spring garden - everything is so green and hopeful.  Tomatoes are turning color - cucumbers need to plump up a little - peppers about two weeks off.   Ask me again in August, though.  This is the best time.




bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #306 on: June 26, 2011, 10:59:44 PM »
JoanP,
Quote
Remember how we dismissed Veneering's references to Desdemona, Midsummer's Night's Dreams, etc.?  It turns out he did read - Shakespeare. Tried to get Filth to read Patrick O'Brien - but Filth said (with good reason) that he hated the sea.  Have  you read any of Patrick O'Brien?  I've intended to... I love the sea.

I must admit,  I never did dismiss, those references, I had a very strong feeling Veneering had a literature background.  I said I couldn't see JG mentioning it if it didn't have some place in the story.  I think we were swayed away by another post if I'm not mistaken.  lolol  No, I have not read O'Brien, one more first for me!

Edward and Veneering's friendship may have begun by default, but that's okay.  I just love how they were able to share their last years together.   It was interesting how he told Veneering more than he told Betty.  But not about Ma Didds.  I felt sad to read Veneering died.  One more loss for Edward.   

I have to admit I liked the Edward I saw after Betty was gone.  He seemed to come alive after he no longer had her.  As much as we were led to believe Betty was his rock, it seems its possible she enabled his insecurities.  Claire does seem to be right when she said Betty underestimated Edward.

There is so much to discuss in these final chapters.  Jane really did give us so much to digest.

Ciao for now~

 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

serenesheila

  • Posts: 494
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #307 on: June 26, 2011, 11:01:17 PM »
I finished our book last night.  For me, I honestly feel that it was a waste of my time.  Confusing right to the end.  So many questions still remain.  For example why did Eddie and Betty marry?  Was V's son, the result of a relationship between Betty and V?  Where did Eddie and Betty meet?  Weren't the "beads" that the neighbor boy found, the ones that Betty had buried while planting tulips?

However, if we decide to read "The Man In The Wooden Hat",  I will take part.  In the hope that some of my unanswered questions will be answered.  Although I feel reading OF was a waste of my time, it did hold my interest until the end.  I have always read for entertainment and pleasure.  I hardly felt pleasure as I read this book.

Sheila

straudetwo

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #308 on: June 27, 2011, 12:19:03 AM »
Re question 4.
A number of passengers on the returning boat were  gravely ill; among the dying was a former teacher, Miss Meg Robertson, daughter of Colonel Robertson, on her way home to join her sister Vera, who  had gone back earlier. Miss Robertson asked Eddie to write  her sister's name and address in his address book so Vera might know what had happened to her sister.

Eddie, himself shaken by fever and weakened by headaches and frequent vomiting, was partially lucid. Address book --  he hadn't seen his  for for a long time. He felt for it then. It was no longer there.   He was sure Loss had stolen it. God knew why - he was a natural crook. A delinquent. The bastard, vanished with my watch.

In the dark of the night  Miss Robertson whispered to Eddie that she'd hidden a pouch with some trinkets in it under the lifeboat blocks near her crutches. "Take them, young man, and give them to your sweetheart." In the morning she was gone. A crew  member went for a bucket and a scrubbing.  Eddie kept his eyes closed and reached for Miss Robertson's walking aids and found his hand on the bag. He put it underneath him and later  into a corner of his suitcase with his father's photograph and Pat's clothes brush. He found himself thinking that he was becoming like loss. A scavenger.  Now we know the provenance of  Betty's magnificent pearls.

Aeons passed. The ship was slowly crawling up the Irish Sea. Then there was land.  Eddie, wrapped in blankets was dumped on a stretcher, pushed through customs and was ashore. Waiting for him was a a man playing with a yo-yo = his old professor Oils. Next to him was Isobel Ingoldby.

Eddie was put in isolation, sinking into and  coming out of unconsciousness.  Slowly he got better and was no longer infectious.   One day Eddie asked Prof. Oils how they were alerted to his arrival that day on that ship. A cable, Oils answered, to a place called Bletchley Park, where Isobel was.
Could his father have sent it, Eddie wondered. No, said Oils. There was no contact with Singapore.
What about someone in Colombo then ?  
"I'd not think so. Not unless someone knew every single one of your addresses."

Six months later Eddie was passed and fit. he surgeon General asked him about Oxford. Eddie said he was going to join up with his father's regiment.  Eddie's decision raised eyebrows but he went to Gloucestershire undeterred. He was expected.  A Colonel with a booming voice said he knew his father and asked whether there was news from Changi. The answer was no.
Then the  Colonel announced that  it had been decided to send Eddie  to the platoon guarding Queen Mary, the Queen Mother.  "Only  a run-in, not for he rest of the war," he added.  Eddie was stared. His health was next.

"You have been infected, Feathers, with three different kinds of parasitic worms. And certainly from Sierra Leone."
The problem was dealt with, but anotherthe discovery that he had been infected also with V.D.  was a painful blow.
Any consequences for his future ? Perhaps. We don't know.

Re question 3.  No hews at that time about Eddie' father.  I assume "Changi" would be Shanghai because that city's air port is Changi Airport.
Eddie had eaten more than thirty bananas, probably  the small ize, but he also drank this strange brew which made him drunk and uninhibited. Loss did neither.

Re question 5. I believe the story about Eddie's assignment to guard the Queen is credible based on what we hear about the monarch. It's also charming.
There were incredible shortages in the war of virtually everything on both sides.  It is admirable  that the Queen would eat exactly what her subjects did. This must have been known at the time and I don't believe JG made it up.

Re question 1. The improved relationship between O.F. and Veneering was beneficial for both men. At their first meeting at Christmas, when O.F. was locked out of his house, Veneering was bent from arthritis. The walks - and having someone to walk with - helped no doubt. The concentration required for playing chess was good for the mental agility of both men. Veneering' was able to get O.F. to read something other than law books.  Veneering felt energetic enough for a cruise to Malta, from which he did not return.  And O.F. began to miss him more than he had thought possible.

Re question 2. Do we know that O.F. actually started writing his memoir, or was it only talk?  Did he  have the time ? Not long after he returned from visiting Babs and Claire, he set out again, this time for Badminton, a further search into his past. In the hospital and during his recovery in the hotel he slept a lot. Would there have been more in his memoir than is found in this narrative ?

During  his convalescence the horror of Wales resurfaced. (The chapter is pointedly titled Last Rites.)  In a phone conversation with Claire  he mentioned his need to see a priest. Claire followed up with a letter with important details, which O.F. tore up. These are important details.
A few days later Father Tansy, Babs and her dog appear.  More important details co,e to light. We learn that it was Claire, the lovely girl who sat on Ma Didds' lap and was never hurt, was the one who said "We whuld kill her." Thee re further details in the Confesion. Babs and Eddie were shut in cupboards. Babs had her mouth taped by Ma Didds to keep her from singing.

Cumberledge, who shared a room with Eddie,  was subjected to the most cruel abuse.  Astonishingly and miraculously Cumberledge  was the only one of the foster children to emerged from the horror intact and serene.  Cumberledge was the student who showed Eddie the direction to Christ Church College. He looked familiar to Eddie. Cumberledge was Oliver's old professor.  Oliver took his mother to Cambridge to see him and she thought he looked familiar.  At that very time O.F. was in town for his visit but had stayed at Light House with Vanessa, Oliver's soon-to-be wife.


straudetwo

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #309 on: June 27, 2011, 12:26:31 AM »
Hallo Sheila, I saw our post as I went over my own long missive for the third time.

You are riht that no answers are given in this book to the questions you asked.  But many answers and clearer explanations are in The Man with the Wooden Hat.   That book is also less fractured.

rosemarykaye

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #310 on: June 27, 2011, 03:17:57 AM »
Straude - I am fairly sure that Changi refers to Changi prison.  This is a notorious prison in Singapore , built by the British but used in the war by the Japanese - Wikipedia (sorry) says they used it to house 3,000 prisoners - it was built to house only 600.  Wikepedia also says that the barracks near the prison were used to house 50,000 prisoners of war.

If anyone has read A Dance To The Music of Time, I believe that Charles Stringham eventually dies in Changi, having been sent to Singapore by Widmerpool.  The last we see of him is in the back of a Japanese truck, being taken there with the rest of his captured unit.

Rosemary

Steph

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #311 on: June 27, 2011, 06:11:58 AM »
 O fcourse , I can do the wooden hat. Where was my brain.. I downloaded it into my IPAD yesterday. Sorry.. This packing for a month is addling what is left of my mind. I am not quite finished with the book.. Too much happening at once. I am glad the Ma Didds thing will clear up.. Cumberledge?? was the professor,, the student, etc. I must reread it since Idid not see that one coming.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

Babi

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #312 on: June 27, 2011, 09:15:09 AM »
 ROSEMARY, maybe they thought the bits of turnip looked more like
pineapple than any other fruit.  I would guess the shortage of sugar kept
people from taking full advantage of their own fruit trees in jam making.
  I do hope you get the house! You've been waiting so long.

 I don't know that I would say Edward 'came alive' after Betty's death.
It was more as though dealing with the shock and loss shook loose some
of the barriers he had erected to the past. Part of his sudden activity,
I think, was an effort to avoid confronting all that.

  Wonderful how...and why...different people have such different perspectives on the same person.  The ‘lacy’ Chloe  says of Old Filth, “He’s not very popular in the village, I’m afraid.  He treats his servants badly.”  Immediately after this, one of the 'mistreated' servants is talking to the people at the hotel taking care of OF. They are saying “We were beginning to grow very fond of him." To which, Gorbutt replies,  “People do."   But then, Chloe has been very disappointed in
her hopes of Old Filth.

 At last,  Wales is revealed.  Claire opens the door for us first and clears up a number of things for us.  However, I do not at all understand her words, “I often think.......that the murderer is the last person to be aware of the crime.  Sometimes he is not aware of it for years..."    Whatever can she be thinking?  It’s nonsense.
  And this statement:  “Cumberledge never made a decision in his quiet life.  (I don’t know how he got so high up in the Army....")    That one, I think I can understand..  The upper ranks of the military are always in need of officers who will simply do as ordered., quietly and efficiently.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #313 on: June 27, 2011, 10:36:00 AM »
Babi, Shelia, and any others who share the confusion and frustration of this book along with myself....I gave up thinking ALL answers will be revealed.  Since I was aware there is a companion book with Betty's perspective I figured I wouldn't trouble myself in wondering about her, Veneering or the son.  I took it that Betty was aware of Edwards inability to be affectionate (venereal disease and all) and she agreed to that type of marriage.  So maybe they had a open marriage, which would account for the affair with Veneering and Claire stating there were others.  Maybe the son is what was the thing between Veneering and Edward that caused the hatred.

Babi I have pointed out many inconsistencies in this book and the one that bugs me the most is when we learn Edward contracted a venereal disease after sleeping with the Buttermilk girl, and was assigned to guard Queen Mary and was told in no uncertain terms to be sure to NOT have any intimate contact with her.  So how on earth can he go to London and have a full day of love making with Isobel?  Mamma Mia when I read that I just about threw the book across the room.  lolol  Gotta run be back later.

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #314 on: June 27, 2011, 10:50:59 AM »
Sheila, so glad that you - and Steph, too will be joining us for an informal post-Filth discussion!  At least the book held your interest to the end, Sheila - hoping to find more definitive answers, of course.  I think you'll be happy with Man in the Wooden Hat -
Earlier - Traude posted a question to the author - asking her if she wrote the Man/Wooden Hat in response to many readers following the publication  of Old Filth.  I did send that question on to her.  It will be interesting to hear her response.
Hopefully she was not too overwhelmed with our questions - I sent her a note on Saturday, telling her that we have all finished the book and are beginning our last week of discussion.  Perhaps she was waiting until we finished to answer.

We have been in contact all along, short emails - one I shared with you last week concerning her OBE award.  In that email, she mentioned that she received it last year from Prince Charle's own hand - and added that her husband had passed away last year too.  I replied with my condolences and asked if he had lived to see her receive the award.
Her reply - which she said I could share with you all -

 "No - my husband was fairly unimpressed by the award. He went on reading the paper. Sadly he was too ill to accompany me to the Palace but we had been before, and left early because we were just a bit bored. It was my granddaughters who came with me and they looked gorgeous. One of them said, as the  ones to get the prizes all queued up, "If granny falls over when she curtseys it's going to put an awful downer on the lunch".

JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #315 on: June 27, 2011, 11:12:27 AM »
Is it me, or are you also finding parallels between Betty and her husband - and the author and hers?  Not completely biographical , but the helpmate wife with the husband in the legal profession in the East - and  quite a life of her own as well?

BELLA
! - I don't remember the boy being told "in no uncertain terms to be sure to NOT have any intimate contact with the Queen."  Can you point me to that page - PLEASE!

As for the physical contact with Isobel - I think that he was told that he was cured - He is really young and ignorant of such matters.
If he has an official document saying that he is cured, he believes that - and  thinks no more of it.  I thought this was quite consistant with what we know of his personality.

"Different people have such different perspectives on the same person." Babi, I agree - it seems that those who know Filth well, beyond his appearances, like him.  Gorbutt is one who knows him.  Chloe is one who thinks he is a rich, good looking guy - he keeps her at arms lenght - so she decides that there's something wrong with him -therefore no one likes him.

Rosemary -   I'm thinking that if Edward's father is imprisonned in Changi prison - chances are good that he never did tell the aunts to send his boy East -  Maybe the aunts hadn't heard from him at all, were not receiving money from him...and just decided to just send away to get him off their hands.  Did you see it this way - or did I miss the father's response to his son's letter begging him to remain in England?
When did he learn that his father had died?


JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #316 on: June 27, 2011, 11:24:09 AM »
I think the main over-riding issue here is Filth's guilt for the crime he committed in Wales - guilt which has plagued him for a lifetime.  There were surprises in his confession, I thought.  First of all, I had suspected that the crime was of a sexual nature.  I did suspect there was a death - there were enough clues there - but not this one.  Did any of you guess it right?

Babi - I puzzled  over Claire's comment too -

Quote
“I often think.......that the murderer is the last person to be aware of the crime.  Sometimes he is not aware of it for years..."  


Can we talk a bit about this comment and see if we can figure out what she means - what Jane G. meant when she wrote it?

bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #317 on: June 27, 2011, 12:49:21 PM »
JoanP.  This entire dialogue gives me the impression the worms were cured as they state, yet the venereal disease they did not know how to treat, which means he could not be cured.  If we are going back to that year I can assume they did not have treatments for venereal diseases then.  Untreated and NO cure would leave the infected person with it, which is why they were concerned for Queen Mary.


pg. 240-241  
Quote
"We have decided to send you to the platoon that is guarding Queen Mary.-------But there is one more thing.  Your health."  "But I'm a hundred per cent, sir."  "I wonder if you know what has been the matter with you, Feathers?"  "Fever sir.  A bug from Sierra Leone.  Pretty lethal,  I suppose.  They never told me."  "You have been infected, Feathers, with three different types of parasitic worm.  And certainly from Sierra Leone."  "Sir?"  But that has not troubled us.  The worms are gone.  We know how to treat these things.  But the other thing was more serious.  You have been suffering from a venereal disease." ........ "Feathers, I have decided that this disreputable episode should not be passed on to Badminton.  Primarily because of Queen Mary.  I hope I am not being unwise."  "Thank you. Yes, sir.  I can't think that Queen Mary would be in any danger from me."

They pointed out she liked  men with a stammer also.  So how could JG allow him to  have a full day of love making with Isobel???

JoanP.  "Is it me, or are you also finding parallels between Betty and her husband - and the author and hers?"

After I finished the book in the back there are acknowledgments, and yes, she has used experiences, herself, husband and others she knows in this book.  Kind of nice reading it.

Babi, “I often think.......that the murderer is the last person to be aware of the crime.  Sometimes he is not aware of it for years..."

I wondered what she was referring to also, so I googled to see if it was a quote from yet another Shakespeare and I found nothing for this anywhere.  Maybe we can ask the author.  

As for me saying I saw Edward come alive after Betty's death, again, its my personal perception, which means others can and will see it differently.  Much like the entire book has been.  lol

JoanP,  Yes, I did think the ultimate horrific event at Ma Didds was she was killed.  Not necessarily by them, but that they witnessed it.  The entire confession was suppose to be for ME the climax of the book, yet I personally felt it fell short.  I was a bit disappointed.  I would not go as far as our other reader to say it was a waste of my time reading the book, because I would have lost out on this great discussion, but I can say it is probably a book I would have never chosen on my own to read, and if I had, I could see me putting it down and not finishing it on my own.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

rosemarykaye

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #318 on: June 27, 2011, 02:23:35 PM »
I don't think for one moment that the colonel was saying that Edward would be after Queen Mary.  She was, I understand, known to be extremely upright and proper.  All he was probably saying was that if QM knew Edward had had VD, she might not like the idea - whereas of course she was probably a lot more open minded and aware than she was perceived.  My impression was that Edward had been cured of the VD as well as the worms.  We are told that sex did not feature greatly in the marriage of Betty and Edward, but not that it didn't happen at all - I thought JG meant that Edward was too troubled to be able to enjoy it.  Maybe The Man In The Wooden Hat clarifies this - I have just borrowed it from the library.

Not sure what Claire means when she says the murderer is not aware - but we do learn that the fall did not kill Ma Didds - this lifts a great burden from Edward, one he has carried around with him for his entire adult life.  Maybe she means that there are many ways to "kill" someone - Ma Didds has in some ways killed Babs and Edward, in that she has killed their spirit.

Joan - I think that Edward's father would only have been imprisoned in Changi after the fall of Singapore, which I think happens whilst Edward is on the boat, so he could still have written to the aunts asking them to send Edward out to him - then he was captured by the Japanese.  But you could well also be right about the aunts sending him away because the money had been cut off.

Rosemary

Jonathan

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #319 on: June 27, 2011, 03:13:53 PM »
Yes, it can seem like a waste of time. Until the light comes on. For me the book has become a bit of a psychological thriller. A mind bender. Quintessentially British. An English Crime and Punishment. Ghostly, with many turns of the screw. That poor man, living with guilt all his life. Sentencing others to death, while distressed by a guilty conscience. No surprise that he didn't bring that black cap back to  England. That little murderer sentencing innocents to death, while living with his own guilt. In a panic, in his old age, calling for a priest in order to confess!

Murder by voodoo. Killing a chicken and burning a hair  from Mrs Didd's brush! And then the carefully kept secret by the four children. She died of natural causes as far as the authorities were concerned. The orphans were passed on to other fostering adults. The psychological trauma had begun, to last a lifetime.

Haven't the feathers and veneer provided a lot of pleasant distraction? It almost fooled us.