Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online

[straudetwo]

 

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

June Bookclub Online  Everyone is welcome!

Old Filth
 by Jane Gardam

"The opening pages of the book find Filth (Sir Edward Feathers), a retired but still unassailable old barrister whose reputation has grown to such mythic proportions that it obstructs the hard truths of a man so damaged by his past that he has found himself forever unable to love. It's only as Filth toddles gracefully into old age that he can begin to rediscover the parts of himself that he has locked away and come to terms with the dark secrets that made him the man he became."   (Reviewed by Maggie O'Farrell) The novelist,  Jane Gardam was born  in Coatham, North Yorkshire on July  11. 1928. Her title character's late-in-life questions about whether his life has had meaning are especially moving—and universal, given this author's own experience and age. “Both witty and poignant, this work is more than a character study; through her protagonist, Gardam offers a view of the last days of empire as seen from post-9/11 Britain.  Borrowing from biography and history, Gardam has written a literary masterpiece that retraces much of of the 20th century's torrid and momentous history.”  Library Journal

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Discussion Schedule for the coming week:

- June 26 - 30   The Donheads; Chambers; Last Rites;  The Revelation; The Inner Temple Garden  p 220-290

Some Topics for Consideration
June 26 - 30

1.  What does the easy friendship between Filth and Terry Veneering reveal about what had happened in the past?

2. Writing his memoirs did not come easy to Filth.   Were you disappointed they weren't included in this story?  What do you think he included?

3.  Why does  Loss's defection seem to Eddie a metaphor for his life?  Does he bear him any ill feelings?  Why would he take his address book? Why might he have demanded Eddie's father's watch?   Do we know what became of his father?

4.  At the end of the voyage, how  was Eddie's  condition diagnosed?  Can you see a reason why his diagnosis might affect his future? 

5.  How did he get assigned to the Queen's guard?  Why would Queen Mary take such an interest in Edward? Was this believable?

6. What did his brief interlude with Isobel reveal to each of them?

7. What does Filth's heart attack make him realize about his life? Is his memory fading?

8.  What did Claire's letter reveal about the horror in Wales?  Had you figured out what it was?    Were you surprised at what Filth revealed in his confession?

9. Is Filth at peace with himself at the end?  Were you satisfied or unsatisfied  with the ending?

10.  What do you think Jane Gardam accomplished with this  novel?
 

Related Links:
  UK Legal System  (rosemarykaye);
  The British Empire;
  BBC interview with Jane Gardam on Old Filth, 2006;
  A Brief Biography of Rudyard Kipling;
  Kipling's "Baa Baa Black Sheep";

Discussion Leaders:  Traude  & Joan P

Rosemary,  thank you for opening my eyes to Changi.  I puzzled over the word, simply because in this book we have to pay attention to every detail and clear up any word we don't understand.

We are shown certain situations and events and then left to make up our own mind as to what they mean. outright.  That is the author's style and we can not fault her for that.  It was her choice to leave many questions unanswered.  And if she wants to leave the ending open, that is her prerogative.

JoanP,  Eddie's father wrote to the school and told them he was pulling Eddie out. There's oo doubt these were his wishes. And at that time the Japanese had not yetinvaded Malaya (now Malaysia), Singapore and Burma.

We know of Betty only what we read in this book. We have no insights other than those we glean from the book. This is at heart the picture  of a marriage between  two very different people, their difficulties, some due to O.F.'s frequent absences and extreme dedication to his job,  and  compromises that are  required in most marriages.  

Thee is a great deal of irony in JG's writing. Take the passage  indicated by Bellamarie.
What the Colonel intended to say was that  [b]no word [/b] of "this disreputable episode" should be uttered at Badminton. And Eddie replies,

"Thank you. Yes. Sir. I can't think that  Queen Mary would be in any danger from me.". That was  a sarcastic remark.  But quite a propos under the circumstances.
"Afterwards the Colonel wondered if he'd be made a fool of. Beaten in argument.   Run rings around. Feathers wasn't certain either."

Queen Mry was amazed that Eddie had never been to London. At her insistence the trip was arranged, for sight-seeing - and she mentioned specific places to him. She did not give him the day off for love-making !! The reader had no idea of Eddie's plan either. Secretive fellow !!  Secretive writer !
When the train back stopped abruptly, the Queen sent for him and he said he - couldn't find Kensington  Palace.  
"Oh dear, that is a pity", said her Majesty. "By the way" (looking at him in the moonlight) "whatever has become of your tie?"
I think that is absolutely priceless.

The fall did not kill Ma Didds right away. The died the next day, most likelyfrom internal injuries.   But her probably metastacized cancer was bound to take her sooner rather than later.  The horrific deed haunted the children all their lives, (except for Cumberledge).believable). It weighed on their consciences.   In the age of Abu Ghrail and water-boarding we have to have become inured to graphic representations of brutality.  To her credit, JG was subtler.

[straudetwo]

Rosemary and Jonathan, just saw your posts after checking my own.  I fully concur on all points mentioned.

[JoanP]

Jonathan - at least he didn't take the guilt to his grave.  He didn't KNOW that Ma Didds didn't die following the fall down the stairs - which looked like an accident to me.  Nor did he know that she was on her deathbed from the cancer either.

Filth has kept the Wales business inside for a lifetime.  Why now, what makes him finally confess his part in Ma Didds' death?  Do you remember what he tells Father Tansey?  What did it have to do with Wales?
 Babs plays an important role here - Filth can't speak unless she helps him to remember the details... Why is that?

These children were  young - and miserable.  Cumberledge rooms with Teddy.  He wets, he stinks, pale, fat and sobbing.  Teddy confesses - "He smelled and I hated him." Babs says Ma Didds hated Cumberledge most.  And the children hated her.  But they were used to the flogging - it was a way of life, wasn't it?

Claire was different - Claire was loved and treated with favor.  She had less reason to hate. And yet it was this little six year old who suggested the murder and started the ball rolling that seemed to lead to her death..
I'm trying to think of what she may have meant when she said wrote to Filth - “I often think.......that the murderer is the last person to be aware of the crime.  Sometimes he is not aware of it for years..." Can this mean that Claire is finally feeling a sense of guilt  complicity  because she planted the idea that led to Ma's death?  Does Claire know that Ma Didds would have died the next day?  Filth says he didn't know that.  Where did Babs get that information?

Jonathan calls it - "Murder by voodoo."  What did it mean they had ayahs and Teddy had his amah? His amah his nursemaid who taught him the black magic?  We know voodoo wouldn't have killed her, but the children wished her dead and thought it would kill her.  Are they guilty of a sin then - for having murder in their hearts?

[bellamarie]

Rosemary When I read, "The worms are gone.  We know how to treat these things.  But the other thing was more serious.  You have been suffering from a venereal disease."   I understood it to mean they have NOT been able to cure him of the VD.  Its not my intent to convince you otherwise, but for me I am seeing they did not know how to cure the VD.

I did begin reading The Man In the Wooden Hat today and its best we discuss Old Filth only on the merit of what is in it.  We can discuss the companion book afterwards, so at this time I did not see anything in O.F. to see it differently.

The colonel questions Edward on his sexual activities and is concerned about his disreputable episode.  I'm not so sure I got the impression the queen was extremely upright and proper.  She made provisions for Edward to go to London to visit all the sights, and requested he live in her house, which he declined.  What must the other soldiers think of her favoritism to him?  What must the reader determine from her special attention and treatment to him?

[bellamarie]

JoanP,

"Filth has kept the Wales business inside for a lifetime.  Why now, what makes him finally confess his part in Ma Didds' death?

My conclusion was he has no one else, he is feeling a total loss because now he has lost his good friend Veneering.  He thought he had a heart attack and is layed up with his hurt foot.  He doesn't know Ma Didds died of stomach cancer, he has lived with thinking he killed her all these years.  He only has himself left to face and so I feel he wants to know why he was so unloved and lost anyone who he got close to.  He asks Fr.  Tansy that question.  He has some kind of religious belief since he feels the need to have a priest to confess to, so possibly he also does not want to die with this sin on his soul.   When you come close to death, I suppose it makes you begin to take an inventory of yourself.

[straudetwo]

Oh yes, they did know how to treat  venereal diseases, aka VD, in 1941,  thanks to Alexander Fleming's accidental discovery of Penicillin   in 1928.  Penicillin was found to cure 90% of patients suffering from VD, if treatment was started as soon as possible, after diagnosis.  Fleming,  a Scottish immunologist, was knighted and, in 1945,  shared the Nobel Prize for Medicine with two fellow scientists.

[bellamarie]

straude,  

Penicillin was found to cure 90% of patients suffering from VD, if treatment was started as soon as possible, after diagnosis.

 

Thank you for the info.  That is interesting, so if they had the treatment to cure VD, then why did JG put in the book, "The worms are gone.  We know how to treat these things.  But the other thing was more serious.  You have been suffering from a venereal disease." Another inconsistency?

Edward was NOT treated as soon as possible, he had it before he got on the boat, and how long did he say he was on the boat, for months?  So he had it a long time before he was ever diagnosed.  Like I said the way I read it I see he is not cured at the time of being assigned to guard the Queen.  The colonel did NOT say he was treated and cured as he stated the worms were gone!  I see it as the colonel was worried he would infect Queen Mary if he repeated his disreputable episode.  And  because the Queen showed so  much favorable interest in Edward over the rest of the 100 plus soldiers guarding her...as many women seemed to be smitten with Edward, I have to say my perception has not changed.

[serenesheila]

JONATHON,  I appreciate you pointing out, that Eddie carried his guilt, while sentencing others for the same crime he felt he had committed.  That is an insight which I appreciate.  I had not thought of the irony in that situation.

Sheila

[straudetwo]

It is not specifically stated that Eddie still had the VD. 

I tend to believe that the Colonel was sort of reproaching him on moral grounds, the Colonel's own,  because Eddie's contact, the buttermilk girl, was obviously promiscuous, that's why the whole thing was so "unpalatable"to the Colonel.   It is highly unlikely, I believe,  that the Colonel would have assigned Eddie to the guards if he had still been  suffering from the disease.

Incidentally, O.F. and Veneering were professional  rivals before O.F. married Betty.  It did not begin over Betty. That is made crystal clear in the next volume.

[Steph]

 OK.. he would not have been allowed to stay in the Army , much less be assigned to the Queen Mother with active VD.. I also believe he would not have been permitted to marry.. I think he was cured, but that he was being scolded for getting the disease, which again was not really his fault..
The guilt caused so much of his life to be painful. He looked successful on the surface, but I suspect other than Betty spent most of his private life in mental pain. I see why he did not want children.. His childhood was a true horror. I am looking forward to Bettys story..

[bellamarie]

The author made it clear the worms were gone but did not make it clear the VD was cured IMO.  Again perception is the key word here and we all see it in the perspective we choose, so with all due respect I think we can agree to disagree, on the VD.  lolol  I rhymed!

Jonathon,Imagine each time he had to deal with a case knowing he had committed the same crime.  No wonder he had nightmares!

[Babi]

LOL.  I had to laugh over the remark by Ms. Gardam's granddaughter. I
do love that casual English combination of affection and irreverence for
things royal.

 Good! I see ROSEMARY has written in answer to the question about Eddie's father writing the aunts to send Eddie out. I can delete that note. AND, Traude has documented the penicillin, so I can delete that note, also.
VD was, obviously, "more serious", but the words 'have been' do not
connote the same thing as 'you are'. 
  BELLE does, however, make a very valid point about the time lapse before Eddie reached a hospital. We can bear in mind, tho', that there were medics on the ship tending wounded, and penicillin was used for them, also.

  I found the interview between Eddie and Colonel highly amusing.  The
colonel had to hide his expression..I think he was trying not to laugh...at
Eddie's incredible naivete.  Naive, but not stupid, as I think that closing
remark suggested.

   

[JoanP]

As Bella writes, the key word here is perception.  The author has tossed out the minimum, suggestion, bits of dialogue, and the reader draws his/her own conclusion.  That's the reason I love these discussions - where we compare and marvel at how differently we understood  the very same thing words.

On the VD, I came away with sort of a mixed conclusion.  The boy was told - "you are not infectuous anymore."  "You're fit now." "You are passed and fit, Feathers."  When Isobel came the 200 miles to visit him in the hospital, no one would tell her what he had.
If there was danger of infecting Isobel, no one warned either one of them when there was opportunity.  So how would they know?

Babi - Eddie's  conversation with the Colonel was amusing - to me, but not to the appalled Colonel as I remember it.  Didn't he actually cry at the boy's ignorance?

Steph, do we know - was it suggested that the reason Filth had no children was because the VD had made him sterile?  I agree, he should have been warned if there was any danger of  infection - and about marriage too.  There was no talk of follow-up examinations either, was there? 

[JoanP]

Sheila asks if  the "beads"  the neighbor boy who lives in Veneering's old house aren't the same ones that Betty had buried while planting tulips? I loved the context of the way the author "planted" that bit of information about Betty's "guilty" pearls.  We've just been told that Filth is "amazed at his regret for Veneering's loss - genuine grief for his familiar and close friend."  Clearly he bears no grudge - has forgiven Veneering for whatever it was that had gone on with Betty.  Let's the neighbor boy take Betty's pearls - back to Veneerings old house...

The Memoirs - now that Veneering is gone, he does attempt to write them, doesn't he? We're told he is confronted by a muddle of impressions and emotions - how to write down such memories.  This is the reason he returned to  Badminton, isn't it?  And yet when he receives the letter from Claire, he shreds it.  Does he or does he not want to face what happened.  I'm confused about his motive for confessing his part in Ma Didd's death...did he want to remember - did he feel the need for absoltion from this priest before he died (Last Rites) - and if not, what  was he looking for?

[straudetwo]

Sheila,  the pearls are first mentioned by Veneering calling from Hong Kong.  The first aha for the reader.

He asks "Are you wearing them?"  and then "Touch them. Are they warm ? Are they mine ? Or his ? Would he know ?"

Betty confirms they are his and O.F. would not know.

So there are two identical strands of pearls. Identical that is except  for a diamond clasp on Veneering's/
But can we really be sure O.F. never noticed it ?
In any case, Veneering's are referred to as "guilty" pearls.

Then Veneering tells her "Harry's dead. My boy." ( MY boy !!!), which has a profound effect on Betty.

She wore the pearls to London and she's wearing them  again (r perhaps still) while planting tulips.  They slide off and she covers them with dirt  just before her weak heart stops.

[Jonathan]

The Memoirs...what was he looking for?

The poor man. Looking for, I suppose, a balm for his weary soul. Or making a case. It's a dumb question, but I would like to ask Jane Gardam if her book is a legal brief disguised as a novel. Plenty of injustices, beginning with those perpetrated on the Raj orphans. But OF is not looking for legal redress in a court of law as much as a resolution of his moral distress. We can judge his state of mind by considering his preoccupations lasting a lifetime, and now reaching a crisis point. I'll try to find the paragraphs that indicate as much. He travels with Betty's Book of Common Prayer as we have been told. But there is more. A divine tribunal in which he will have to make an appearance.

[Jonathan]

Sir Edward and the law:

But in the early hours of the morning he woke with a chilling certainty that all was not well....He knew that he was very ill....He stretched his hand out to the bedside table drawer and felt about for the never-failing Gideon's Bible that had seen him through many a sleepless night during his legal life. In skyscrapers in Hong Kong, in the Shangri-la in Singapore, the dear old Intercon in Dacca. Lonely places, until he'd been married and able to take Betty along with him. He thought he needed a Gospel tonight, and turned up one of Christ's ding-dongs with the lawyers.

He wondered, the pages shaking as he turned them, why Christ had so hated lawyers when He'd have been such a brilliant one Himself. Christ, when you considered it, was simply putting a Case. He may well have been enjoying the lawyers' examination of him. Pilate's was his most respectable interrogation. Pilate had not been a lawyer, but another excellent lawyer manque. Pilate and Christ had understood each other.

'We still use a little Roman Law, here,' he told Christ tonight. 'The Law can always do with a going-over as you pointed out then. Execution should be entirely out. Execution leads only to victory for the corpse. You proved that,' he informed the Holy Ghost.

He dreamed for a little, drifted, read the Sermon on the Mount, remembered hearing that no child nowadays has heard of the Sermon on the Mount and most guess it is a book or a film. He thought benevolently how he should like to be upon another Bench listening to Christ going for the defence in a Case to do with, say,  a land-reclamation.

A fist grabbed him in the chest and pain shot through him. He could not breathe. He stretched for the bell and kept his right hand on it as the pain sank down, then surged up again. It's the Hand of God, he thought. And nobody but God knows where the hell I am.

Christ as a barrister! With Old Filth on the Bench! What strange thoughts go through this man's mind! And then that surge again. Last time it was lust, brought on by Chloe's appearance. What a truly human character.

[Jonathan]

I can't get over it. The Hand of God and Chloe, bringing on the same pyhsical symptom.

[JoanP]

Traudee, we know Claire has Miss Robertson's pearls, which Filth gave to Betty- they are described as the "magnificent" pearls.  And Betty has buried, what she called, her "guilty" pearls, given to her by Veneering- remember how she wished the sand wouldn't hurt them, as she buried them?  The neighbor kid finds a dirty string of beads in the garden.  Was there really  a diamond clasp on Veneering's pearls? I think I missed that.  Wouldn't diamonds be noticeable - even after all those years in the ground? . --  On the train to London, the pearls are described as "glorious"  - the same pearls that she tells Veneering  on the phone she is wearing.  Filth doesn't notice.  Or, as you say, he notices, but won't admit it...

ps just fixed some nice Darjeerling - (Dacherling) tea - "first flush"...

[JoanP]

"Christ as a barrister! With Old Filth on the Bench..."! Jonathan - Yes!  yes! - that's it!  All these years Filth has sat on the bench, passing judgment
on others - and now he feels the need to get something off his chest.  He will become the accused, put Christ on the seat of Judgement.    He says he is not a religious man.  Why a priest, he asks himself.  It's all superstition.
But still he feels the need to tell someone that he killed a woman in cold blood when he was 8 years old. Why a priest if it's all superstition?  Can't he tell anyone?  Maybe there is no one else left to tell - he's outlived everyone...

Fr. Tansey tells Filth that he tries to follow Christ - to see himself as Christ.  And so Filth steps out of his role as Judge Feathers into the confessional and confesses  to the man who sees himself as Christ.  

"All my life, from my early childhood, I have been dumped, or separated by death from everyone I loved or who cared for me.  I want to know why."

Does he see his early sin, his unconfessed crime, his guilt for killing Ma Didds as the cause?  Will expressing remorse and pity for the poor woman, his abuser -  bring him the peace he is hoping for? Or is it too late?

Help me out here - do you see his confession in this way -  a sort of plea bargain? Pity for Ma Didds and all weak humans - in exchange for  peace, for love and care from those around him?  

[bellamarie]

JoanP, 

"Was there really  a diamond clasp on Veneering's pearls? I think I missed that.  Wouldn't diamonds be noticeable - even after all those years in the ground?"

I must have missed that detail too, because I don't recall there ever being a distinguishing fact about which pearls were which, other than one called the "guilty" pearls. 

straude, I fear you are dropping crumbs here and there from our companion book....lolol

Back later I had what I call a high maintenance day care day with the kids.  lolol

Ciao for now~

[bellamarie]

"All my life, from my early childhood, I have been dumped, or separated by death from everyone I loved or who cared for me.  I want to know why."

When I read this it made me feel so sad for Edward.  He really did think what he did at the age of 8 yrs old followed him throughout his life causing him to lose his relationships with those he loved and cared for.  I just can't shake the feeling that Betty enabled Edward's insecurity throughout their years of marriage, rather help him get counseling to deal with his trauma from the Raj orphanage.  Their marriage may have been more rich and fulfilling.  Just a nagging feeling I have had throughout the book. 

[Steph]

I think that Edward at the time of the confession was simply saying, that his entire life.. starting before age 8, he had been torn from everything and everyone he loved.. Yes , he has guilt from Ma Didds death, that probably started the bible reading in hotel rooms..I was really struck by the vision of Jesus as a lawyer, but understand that to Edward being a lawyer was the best of what he did.. I liked him.. Felt sorry for him,, but admired that he kept on going and doing as best he coudl his whole life.

[ursamajor]

I think the bible reading in hotel rooms was just a response to insomnia.  People like us never travel without a book, and I daresay none of us has ever opened a gideon bible.  We read the books we brought.  Non-readers read the book that is to hand in almost every hotel room - the bible.  I guess I see his "confession" to the priest as sort of a last ditch reaching out.  I am not religious and this may look different to those who believe that confession is a gateway to heaven.

I found Edward's life to be terribly pathetic.  In spite of his apparent success, he suffered all his life from the sequential losses of his childhood.

[Babi]

 JOANP, the colonel turned quickly away and went over to the window to
hide his expression from Eddie.  Considering what Eddie had just said, I
thought it was due to amused astonishment at the young man's ignorance and
naivete.

 I think OF was right about one thing, JONATHAN. Christ would have made a
brilliant lawyer.  I'm sure you've noticed how good he was at meeting the
arguments of all the lawyers and Pharisees who came to challenge him.

   Old Filth, praying for everyone he’s ever known, I think.  I’m a bit surprised, since he so often remarked that he was not religious.  But apparently, he has been praying for Pat Ingoldby every day.   What does that tell us about the strongest and most meaningful relationship of Edward Feathers life?   Then, too, what does it say about how he truly saw Betty, since he is so confident that she had no need of his prayers?

[bellamarie]

ursamajor,

I am not religious and this may look different to those who believe that confession is a gateway to heaven.

With all due respect, I am a religious, Catholic person and in no way do I feel confession is a gateway to heaven.  I taught religion classes for fifteen years and never was it taught to think of confession as a gateway to heaven.  Confession is about acknowledging the wrong/sin you feel you have committed in your life that keeps you from having a closer relationship with God. For me, it is about being granted the forgiveness through a true act of contrition, and the cleansing I feel once I have confessed.  I think after his near death experience, if he is the slight bit religious,  he would want absolution for a mortal sin he thought he committed.  Fr. Tansy was able to give absolution to him and Babs.  I was happy to see the both of them were finally able to bring this out in the open through his confession. 

Babi, The colonel turned away and was indeed amused at Edward's naivete.  I feel Jesus was the best example of what a lawyer should be.  He sure had Pointus Pilate all twisted up.  lolol  It is obvious Edward, although he did not practice a faith through church going and ministry, he was religious to some degree. 

That's an interesting question you ask about him feeling Betty had no need for his prayers.  He certainly could not see her as a perfect person without sin because he knows she committed adultery.  Even if they had an open marriage, in the eyes of the church it would be a sin needing forgiveness for.  Hmmmm.....I will have to give this some thought.

[Jonathan]

Ha! If there's a moral to this tale, it must be - get yourself to a confessional in good time. Not necessarily as a passport to heaven, but as a way to clear the air and establish fact and truth. Old Filth as a religious man? I think not. For him everything must have been a question of law. Not prayer. Except perhaps Betty's prayers for him. In fact, perhaps, he depended on them. His for her? No need. She said her own, as her Book of Common Prayer implies. Perhaps there's  more on this in The Wooden Hat. So, 'fess up, get it off your chest.

Sir Edward read nothing but law books. Remember Veneer introducing OF to the pleasures of painting and music, and 'various writers.' (at the beginning of the last Donheads chapter)  It must be as ursa suggests: his bible reading was a response to insomnia. Yes, but what brought on the insomnia? I would like to point out to others in such a situation when travelling. I found a splendid alternative to the Gideon's in the hotel rooms. The Yellow Pages of the local telephone directory. Quite a bit in there about local culture. And a lot of snippets of poetry and witticisms as filler on the pages.

What a strange ending to a strange life. Perception is everything. Admired by all the world. Needing only a haircut, according to the Purveyor of Seals and Ordinances, in the second SCENE.

[Jonathan]

What to make of the Queen Mary chapter in Sir Edward's life. My early memories of her are as a very austere and regal Queen Mother. Does she serve as a bit of nostalgia in the book?

[rosemarykaye]

Jonathan, my mother has exactly the same memories of Queen Mary, "the old queen" - very stiff upper lip, never smiled.  I am not sure what she is there for except as an interesting diversion, but it being Jane Gardam I think I have missed something, as everything she puts is has a definite purpose IMO.

Rosemary

[bellamarie]

Jonathon, I have to admit, I really do see the reason for putting Queen Mary in the book was to show EVEN a Queen could not resist being smitten with O.F.  I did not get the impression at all of her being stiff upper lipped or rigid in this book, if anything she went out of her way to do favors for Edward, one soldier out of many, which IMO, is the opposite of rigid.  JG wants the reader to really see Edward as a very irresistible man.   Again my perception only!  lol

I am enjoying ALL the responses to Old Filth's reason for reading Gideon's Bible and his confession.  Great remarks and depending on where you are, your perspective/perception will ring out.....LOVE IT!!!!

I think a better name for this book would have been............ Old Filth Perceived



Ciao for now~

[JoanP]

So much here - you are leaving not a stone unturned!

- About the VD issue (again)  If the Colonel is so amused at the boy's lack of knowledge of sexual matters and transmitted disease - do you really think he'd  pronounce him "fit" and dismiss him from the hospital if he believed that there was the slightest possibility that he was a danger to future sexual partners - to a wife?

- Trying to figure out where I stand in the Gideon matter - I don't think Filth sees himself as a "believer" in an afterlife - in that sense, I don't think he thinks of himself as a religious man.   He says it's all superstition.  We've been told he doesn't like to read, though Veneering tried to introduce him to literature.  He seems to like to turn to  Biblical sections that show Christ as a forgiving man - also as a barrister  he can relate to.  He wants to get his "crime" off his chest before he dies.  Maybe if he does, he will understand why he has been punished all his life for this crime when he was a child.   If confessing to Father Tansey will achieve this, then he is ready to give it a go.  And the blessing here - is that he learns that he did not actually take Ma Didds'  life.  Does this provide the answer that he seeks?  Why has he been abandonned his whole life if not guilty of any crime?

- Queen Mary - I'm assuming you read the author's Acknowledgements at the end of the story?  Do the e-readers include such information?

"Those who believe that they recognize any of my characters are mistaken for they are all from my imagination except for Queen Mary and her lady-in-waiting, the Duchess of Beaufort.."

I believe JG has presented an accurate portrayal of the Queen - says she's "grateful to the late Michal Underhill, QC, who was for a few months junior Platoon Commander in the Royal Gloucestershire regiment which guarded Queen Mary at Badminton House."  He talked to JG about it, as did his wife.  She also thanked Mrs. Nettles, one time housekeeper at Badminton and her sister.  She drew on other books aboutthe queen as well.

OK, accurate - but what does the inclusion of Filth's tenure at Badminton add to the story?

Back later - late, always late!

[serenesheila]

I read half of the sequel to OF, yesterday.  So far, I like it.  I did not want to stop reading.  I won't talk about it, until we are finished OF, though.  But, some of my questions have already been answered in the sequel.

Sheila

[bellamarie]

JoanP, LOL  Seems we are never going to get cured of the VD!!!   

If the Colonel is so amused at the boy's lack of knowledge of sexual matters and transmitted disease - do you really think he'd  pronounce him "fit" and dismiss him from the hospital if he believed that there was the slightest possibility that he was a danger to future sexual partners - to a wife?

He did NOT pronounce him "fit." pg. 240 "But there is one more thing.  Your health."  "I'm a hundred per cent, sir."  "I wonder if you know what has been the matter with you, Feathers?"  "Fever, sir.  A bug from Sierra Leone.  Pretty lethal, I suppose.  They never told me."  "You have been infected, Feathers, with three different types of parasitic worm.  And certainly from Sierra Leone."  "Sir?"  "But that has not troubled us.  The worms are gone.  We know how to treat these things.  But the other thing was more serious.  You have been suffering from a venereal disease."  "What is that, sir?"  The Colonel looked at him warily.  "You have been in close contact with a woman."  "She died of gangrene, sir, on the ship after Cadiz.  I only did what I could.  Miss Robertson.  She was over seventy-."  "I doubt that she was the source of the infection.  What I am saying, Feathers, is that you have acquired sexual knowledge through a most unpalatable source.  Isn't this true?"  A long and thoughtful silence.  "It was dark, sir, I never really looked at her.  I never thought of her as palatable or unpalatable.  She just climbed in.  I'd no idea how to do it, and she had.  She gave me buttermilk, sir.  It was in Norther Ireland, sir."  The Colonel paced hurriedly across to the window and stood looking intently.  "Were you taught nothing at school, Feathers?"  "I have won a scholarship to Oxford sir."  A sort of sob from the window.  A pause for recovery.  "Feathers, I have decided that this disreputable episode should not be passed on to Badminton.  Primarily because of Queen Mary.  I hope I am not being unwise." 

So my conclusion is that the Colonel was concerned, he was being unwise allowing him to go in close proximity of the Queen in the event the disreputable episode would be repeated.  Hence.....he was not cured or why would the Colonel be concerned?  I can't explain why the Colonel would dismiss him knowing he could infect others.  It is not for the READER to explain this discrepancy.  ONLY JG can tell us.  It is obvious if we have spent this much time trying to understand or convince ourselves or others what it meant, then it has been left open to the perception of the reader.  JoanP,  without discussing the companion book, I know many of us have begun reading, The Man In the Wooden Hat, and in that book, JG does INDEED CLARIFY if he is or is not cured.  Do you suppose because she had so many readers bring this to her attention she felt the NEED to address it specifically and clearly in the companion book?

As for Edward being Christian or not or to what degree if any, I took him at his word for needing to confess.  pg. 272

Fr. Tansy "Wake up. You have sent for me at last.  I have been waiting patiently."  "You have a great idea of your own importance."  said Filth.  "I remember you awash in that great marble church."  "Not my own importance," said Fr. Tansy.  "I follow Another's importance.  I try to follow the personality of Christ, and am directed by it."  "I don't believe in all that,"  said Filth.  "But there's something, somewhere, that's urging me to talk to a__well, I suppose, to a priest.  You are the only priest I know.  How you got here, I don't know.  What I'm doing here, I don't know.  I've been dreaming lately.  About Queen Mary."  "Queen Mary?"  "Yes.  And my father.  And a murder__.  And other loose ends."  Father Tansy waited with bright eyes, like a squirrel.  "Carry on."  "I suppose it's going to be a confession,"  said Filth.  "I'm glad you're not hidden in one of those boxes.  I'm not up to that."  "I know."  "I can't start until Babs comes back.  She's part of it.  And I've been seriously ill."  "Sir Edward, you can begin by telling me what's the matter with you.  And I don't want to hear about prawns and strained ligaments."  After a time Filth said, "All my life, Tansy, from my early childhood, I have been left, or dumped, or separated by death, from everyone I loved or who cared for me.  I want to know why."....."The point is," said Filth, seated at his table, recovering a little of his former authority when addressing the Court, "the point is,  I have begun to wonder whether my life of loneliness __always basically I have felt quite alone__is because of what I did when I was eight years old, living with Babs and Claire in Wales, fostered by a woman called Mrs. Didds."

I see an old, lonely man, who has been sick and realizes he could be near death and wants to somehow understand why his life has been what it is and if it was because of what he thought he did to Mrs. Didds.  He says,  "I don't believe in all that,"  said Filth.  "But there's something, somewhere, that's urging me to talk to a__well, I suppose, to a priest."

For me as a Catholic Christian, I see that statement as possibly the Holy Spirit urging him to talk to speak to a priest.  Without getting into the discussion of religion because that could take us a month of Sundays....I personally saw this very religious, because that..... something, somewhere urging him allowed him to finally come to terms and find out he had not committed the act of murder and it allowed him to be released of the hell he had been living in all these years.  He could surmise, his life like many other Raj orphans was what it was abusive, unfortunate, lonely etc., he like many others had more loss and separation then any child should ever have to experience, BUT...he learned it was through NO FAULT of his own due to the murder he thought he committed. 

Absolution, yes!  The chapter is labeled  "Last Rites" in my Catholic faith that is a sacrament given to someone gravely ill and needing absolution to allow them to have their relationship healed with God, and to be prepared for death and the ever after. Had it not been necessary from a priest as he stated, then I would not have seen it as a sacrament or religious.

I think once again the author has left it to the reader's perception, depending on where they are.  Each one of us can see it differently for sure.
 
Sorry so lengthy.....can you feel my passion?  lolol

Ciao for now~

[Steph]

Oh me,, and I did not even see the priest as a catholic one. I thought perhaps Anglican, because they use the word priest for their ministers as well.
I think that he simply neede someone to listen to his story and thought a religious person would hear..I started the second book, but have not gotten far..Love it. It is quite different from this one.

[JoanP]

Steph, I'm enjoying it Man in a Wooden Hat too - though I'm now having a difficult time keeping the two books separate.  Traude had asked earlier  whether Jane G. had intended to write Wooden Hat after she completed Filth - or whether she wrote it in response to her readers' many questions following the publication of Filth.  That was one of the questions submitted to the author earlier.
You know, it's a good thing we've decided to continue here with a discussion of Wooden Hat man because that allows time for Jane G. to respond to those earlier questions -
Now that we've finished reading Old Filth - are there any more questions you would like to put to the author?  (The earlier questions were not related directly to the story, since we had not yet finished the book.)  If you do I have questions, I can send them on - attached to the earlier questions -

Today, let's consider the final chapters, before delving into the Man with the Hat.  Did you expect the ninety year old Filth would actually make the journey to the East?  Why was this significant?

[JoanP]

Steph - considering your comment about the "confession" - I thought Anglican too - I searched and found this description of Anglican confession- from an Anglican - I was particularly interested in what he had to say was the real difference between Catholic and Anglican confession:

"We are encouraged in the Bible to confess our sins one to another, so, Auricular Confession is offered in some parishes. However, we have a General Confession and Absolution within the Order for Morning and Evening Prayer, as well as within the Order for Holy Communion, so individual confession is not a requirement.

As to what you can expect, that depends on the parish. Some priests will have a formal confessional, and follow the forms as found in the Catholic Missal, while others will meet with you in the vestry, sanctuary, or other private or semi-private area and just let you talk. (My first one was done in a corner of the fellowship hall.) Whichever way you do it, it's pretty much the same idea; you confess whatever it is that is bothering you, and the priest listens."

 The only real difference {from a Catholic confession} is that the priest will not (or rather, should not) offer absolution. We believe that only God can forgive your sins. While the priest can (and probably will) say an absolution prayer for you, it is understood that only God has the power to wipe your slate clean."

Jonathan writes that Filth was writing his Memoirs - "looking for a balm for his weary soul."  It  makes sense that now that  he is alone with his thoughts, Betty's gone, so's Veneering -  he would want to address at last the unanswered questions he has carried within all these years.  
It was in writing the Memoirs that he came face to face with unanswered questions - the big question - WHY has everyone he's ever cared about, abandoned him?  (Do you thinks he suspects that Betty did too?)

He goes looking for answers to Badminton - there making the confession to Father Tansey.  I don't think he went there with the intention of confessing his Wales guilt - looking for the Last Rites - though that's what it turned out to be.   I don't think he was looking for absolution from Father Tansey..

What a difference  it made that Babs was there to help him with the confession - to supply the missing information that Filth needed to hear.  Wouldn't it have been a different story without her being there?
 

[bellamarie]

Steph, I don't think it mattered much which faith the priest was, I was speaking from MY faith, I was not trying to indicate he was Catholic....my point is he stated, I don't believe in all that,"  said Filth.  "But there's something, somewhere, that's urging me to talk to a__well, I suppose, to a priest."

If it could have been anyone then why didn't he just choose anyone?  Because he wanted it to be as he said, "a  priest......a confession." I only used my faith Catholic as to point out the religious aspects of the confession and last rites.  I think we are picking at the details so much we are overlooking the simple facts.    

JoanP, I agree I don't think he went to Wales looking to confess or for absolution, , but in the end that is what happened.  Hence the title of the chapter being "Last Rites." When he went to Wales, he had no idea he would suffer a heart attack and come close to meeting death.  (which we know was not a heart attack) It would have been different if Babs would not have been there, only because he did not have all the facts as to the real reason for Mrs. Didds death. But he would have still confessed he murdered Mrs. Didds, and got absolution from Fr. Tansy.  Babs being there allowed JG to tie up all the loose ends, to give him the opportunity to go on with his life, what was left with it.  He needed to know that he was not to blame for someone dying.  JG obviously wanted Fr. Tansy to play that part in this story, and since he and Babs had become friends, it made sense the two of them came together.

I too am into the second part of The Man in the Wooden Hat and now I know WHY my instincts led me not to like Betty much early on in Old Filth.  

[JoanP]

I think it makes a difference, Bella.  An Anglican minister does not give absolution. Anglican priests do not have this power.  As I see it, Filth confessed with Babs help, by describing what he thought had happened.  In the process he discovered that he was not guilty of the crime he thought he had committed.  He came away with a new understanding of what really happened.  This would not have occurred if Babs was not there to set the record straight. I just reread that section and do not see Father Tansey Absolving him or forgiving him- he simply listened to the two of them and then the three of them prayed together for healing.  Is that what you saw as absolution?
I believe this would not have been the same story without Babs' explanation of what had happened in Wales.

Filth came back from this experience, determined to take the trip back East - where he feels he is HOME.  Does this mean he feels an innocence here that he has never felt since he left?

[ursamajor]

I haven't been able to pick up Man in the Wooden Hat yet, so I'm behind.  My perception of Edward's confession is perhaps colored by a non-fiction book I read recently in which a young man shoots another young man who had been harrassing him.  He confesses to a protestant preacher, not a priest, who advises him to go back to school and forget about it.  Protestants don't give absolution, that's up to God in their perception.  At a trial thirty years later the preacher testifies against the now middle-aged man who confessed to him.  This is a violation of a minister's ethics, seal of the confessional or not.  The reader is left thinking that expulsion from the ministry is too good for the preacher, he should be tarred and feathered.  The young man was certainly not Catholic, more likely Baptist, so there must be a universal need to find someone to share a confession with and a minister is perceived to be trust-worthy.

[Babi]

I am caught by Old Filth’s sense of running out of time. “It’s just there’s no chance of many more of them, of times of any sort, now. "
   I imagine most of us here are getting to the age where that truth becomes more and more real, but I trust we're not quite to this point yet.   ..”You’re tired of it anyway.  No memory. No desire. Yet you don’t want it to be over. Not just yet.”