Author Topic: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online (Read 126649 times)

JoanP · « **Reply #360 on:** June 30, 2011, 09:24:30 AM »

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.

June Bookclub Online Everyone is welcome!

Old Filth
by Jane Gardam

"The opening pages of the book find Filth (Sir Edward Feathers), a retired but still unassailable old barrister whose reputation has grown to such mythic proportions that it obstructs the hard truths of a man so damaged by his past that he has found himself forever unable to love.
It's only as Filth toddles gracefully into old age that he can begin to rediscover the parts of himself that he has locked away and come to terms with the dark secrets that made him the man he became." (Reviewed by Maggie O'Farrell)

The novelist, Jane Gardam was born in Coatham, North Yorkshire on July 11. 1928. Her title character's late-in-life questions about whether his life has had meaning are especially moving—and universal, given this author's own experience and age.
“Both witty and poignant, this work is more than a character study; through her protagonist, Gardam offers a view of the last days of empire as seen from post-9/11 Britain. Borrowing from biography and history, Gardam has written a literary masterpiece that retraces much of of the 20th century's torrid and momentous history.” Library Journal

click on map twice to enlarge

Discussion Schedule for the coming week:

- June 26 - 30 The Donheads; Chambers; Last Rites; The Revelation; The Inner Temple Garden p 220-290

Some Topics for Consideration
June 26 - 30

1. What does the easy friendship between Filth and Terry Veneering reveal about what had happened in the past?

2. Writing his memoirs did not come easy to Filth. Were you disappointed they weren't included in this story? What do you think he included?

3. Why does Loss's defection seem to Eddie a metaphor for his life? Does he bear him any ill feelings? Why would he take his address book? Why might he have demanded Eddie's father's watch? Do we know what became of his father?

4. At the end of the voyage, how was Eddie's condition diagnosed? Can you see a reason why his diagnosis might affect his future?

5. How did he get assigned to the Queen's guard? Why would Queen Mary take such an interest in Edward? Was this believable?

6. What did his brief interlude with Isobel reveal to each of them?

7. What does Filth's heart attack make him realize about his life? Is his memory fading?

8. What did Claire's letter reveal about the horror in Wales? Had you figured out what it was? Were you surprised at what Filth revealed in his confession?

9. Is Filth at peace with himself at the end? Were you satisfied or unsatisfied with the ending?

10. What do you think Jane Gardam accomplished with this novel?

Related Links:
UK Legal System (rosemarykaye);
The British Empire;
BBC interview with Jane Gardam on Old Filth, 2006;
A Brief Biography of Rudyard Kipling;
Kipling's "Baa Baa Black Sheep";

Discussion Leaders: Traude & Joan P

rosemarykaye · « **Reply #361 on:** June 30, 2011, 11:25:50 AM »

Bella - just wondered if you had managed to get the Brideshead Revisited DVD (of the TV series, not the film) yet? Because the whole story of Brideshead revolves around the Catholic faith (which Waugh himself converted to, I think) - I don't want to give too much away, but I think it is true to say that without Catholicism there would be no story. I do hope you enjoy it.

Rosemary

Jonathan · « **Reply #362 on:** June 30, 2011, 12:14:21 PM »

the old queen, very stiff upper lip, never smiled... even so, Rosemary. How very clever of the author to portray her as a fine, warm human being after all. Just like Old Feathers. Did she find him irresistable? No, I think it must have been Eddie's stammer that drew him to the mother of a stammering king. Fate brought them together. Both lived public and private lives. And Jane Gardam makes a good story out of it.

bellamarie · « **Reply #363 on:** June 30, 2011, 03:07:43 PM »

Oh JoanP, I really didn't mean to get into the specifics and details of the different faiths. Yes, the praying together in the end and the healing, is what I perceived as absolution. For me it could be seen that way without getting into the logistics of the sacraments and faiths. So sorry for mentioning MY Catholic faith. I was in NO way intending to make Edward or Fr. Tansy a Catholic, but I did see Edward at some level even if it was unconscious to him to be somewhat religious in the sense he wanted to confess to a priest. In the companion book, it tells us he actually was a church goer, whether it be for the sake of Betty, and whether or not he got anything from going, but even after her death he continued to go. Oooops dropping bread crumbs.....lolol

I think you misunderstood my post, your post under mine about the difference of Babs being there is exactly what I said. lolol

I just finished the companion book, The Man In the Wooden Hat. It was a fast read and eye opener in some areas, others it confirmed all my suspicions I had in Old Filth.

Babi~ I think Edward is just realizing his mortality is not going to last forever.

Jonathon, I agree, I liked how JG brought out a kindness and warmth of the Queen. I can still see her being just a bit smitten with Edward, only because JG has made it a point most of the women in the book reacted this way to him. lol

Rosemary, We are posting at the same time. No, the DVDs are on my list to do for my upcoming two weeks off of day care! Thanks for the reminder and info!

Ciao for now~

salan · « **Reply #364 on:** July 01, 2011, 07:10:01 AM »

Just finished the book. Are we using the first few days of July to "wind it all up" (or down). I just downloaded The Man in the Wooden Hat on my Kindle. I would love to join the discussion.
Sally

JoanP · « **Reply #365 on:** July 01, 2011, 10:23:11 AM »

Good timing, Sally! Yes, let's spend today winding down with Old Filth before continuing with Man in the Wooden Hat. We don't want to give away anything - and Jane Gardam has really saved some bombshell surprises to end that one.

I'm interested to hear everyone's reaction to the ending - the Old Filth ending. He is really dressed for the return Home...loved the yellow cotton socks - did his hankie in breast pocket match? I'm a bit confused on his state of mind on the return trip. Are there indications that he had expected, or would have welcomed a terrorist attack - and the plane going down. Is he tired of life and wants to end it all? What is the significance to the name ISLAM on the tag of his suitcase? Have you ever witnessed a parhelion - an ancient omen we are told. Is it a good omen?

When he lands, and steps out of the plane - and feels the warm air - the sounds of the drums - do you get the feeling that he is HOME - really home on the way back to Maylasia, maybe? Experiencing the last place he had known real happiness? Did you sense this? Wouldn't it be a wonderful blessing to have such a realization of complete joy at the very last?

Babi -I'm thinking of your comment on desire and memory . No matter how tired of life one might be - "you don't want it to be over just yet." As long as you have memory and desire?

Filth remembers a quote "Without memory and desire life is pointless." We've spend a lot of time getting to this point - I'd love to know what you thought of the ending?

straudetwo · « **Reply #366 on:** July 01, 2011, 04:15:36 PM »

Sheila, re your earlier post. I'm glad you like TMITWH, I knew you would. It is a riveting story, more accessible than OF was to some of us at least in the beginning.

JoanP and Sally, we definitely need to talk about a few more details (in the Chambers chapter for, example), and the ending, of course. I've very much enjoyed the diverse insights you shared in your posts these past few days, and am pleased that we have come to a deeper understanding of this fascinating book; partly a growing-up story, told in spurts and intertwined with glimpses of a marriage, from the husband's perspective, therefore one-sided. That of course is going o change.

Edward Feathers deliberately shut out any memories of Wales as well a other" inconvenient" facts and, when reminded (by Isobel's condolence letter, for example, and later Claire's letter about the horror), he consigns both to the dust bin. Nevertheless, immediately after Betty's death he begin to literally revisit his past. (As I said before, I think the episode of his serving in the platoon of the Queen Mother' guards is charming, even if historically unlikely. JG is entitled to include as per author's license. For the record, the Queen, born in 1867, was 74 years old in 1941. Any interest in the fictional Feathers, a personable, handsome, promising young man and good partner for tea parties, would have been maternal, nothing more.)

he trip to Badminton starts with a mishap Eddie is hampered by a sprained ankle. And it is possible that he did suffer a heart attack that night but preferred to have people believe it was indigestion from prawns. Whatever it was, he felt his long life was coming to an end and he needed to confess to his wrongdoing in Wales. Fr. As it turned out, Fr.Tansy, the jeans-wearing "boy priest" from Claire's town, did well (in my opinion) listening and a minimum of prodding. It brought Edward the relief he sought.

Babi, memory and desire pages 257 - 58. Excellent and important point.

Suddenly he knew that this was what had been the matter with him for years. He had lost desire. Not sexual desire, that had been a poor part of his nature always. He had been furtive about the povertyo f his sexual past. Dear Betty - she gad been very undemanding. He had never told her about the buttermilk business and skimmed over Isobel Ingoldby. Whatever would the young make of him today ?

What more could he desire ? H was famous, successful, had all kinds of worldly possessions. Was it happiness he coveted ? But it was too late for that. The door to material and professional success was opened by Loss, the dwarf.

In the brief Chambers chapter, Edward is practicing law in post-war London, a city partly in ruins, still suffering from food shortages, the rationing of coal and other commodities,like many other bombed cities in England and on the continent. Eddie is languishing in a tedious job
leading nowhere. And in blows Loss, Eddie's companion on the boat to Singapore. Loss is surrounded by an aura of influence and wealth. He has a lucrative busines proposition for Eddie, which is accepted. There's no time for the celebration Eddie proposes because Loss is flying off again that evening.. Eddie is to follow within days and until he does has the use of Loss's Rolls Royce. They bond again easily - never mind the watch and the address book. What is the reader to make of this mysterious, slightly repugnant character ?

Back later after I've read the last chapters yet again.

Jonathan · « **Reply #367 on:** July 01, 2011, 04:28:04 PM »

The pathos running through the book becomes almost overwhelming in the end. Filth's feelings of guilt are matched by his sorrow. For himself and for all the world.

'I cannot bear to think about the cruelty at the core of this foul world.'

On Christmas Day, in church, he prays for everyone, living and dead. For the soul of Ma Didds, and even for 'poor old Isobel.'

Old age, he declares, is a waiting game. The last while he kept himself going with 'remembrance and desire. And haven't we heard all about it.

And then, Home at last. With Betty by his side. From the top of the gangway, the East hit him full in the face. The thick, glorious heat washed on to him and around him, lapped his swollen old hands and his tired feet, bathed his old skull and sinewy neck, soaked into his every pore and fibre. Life stirred....Betty seemed to be beside him, grinning away, waving at all the people. Just at his shoulder. I'm home!

What's in a name? I move we readers absolve Old Filth of all his imagined sins and rechristen him Old Faithful.

Jonathan · « **Reply #368 on:** July 01, 2011, 04:41:21 PM »

'What is the reader to make of this mysterious, slightly repugnant character ?'

Just read your post, Traude. The important thing is, Loss did befriend a lonely young man. And then later came along with a suitcase full of briefs and an opportunity to go 'Home'.

Jonathan · « **Reply #369 on:** July 01, 2011, 04:51:32 PM »

Here in Canada, we're Royal watching. William and Kate are visiting and helping us celebrate our July First birthday. Now, let's see. He would be Queen Mary's great-grandson, I guess. About Eddie's age, when he served her so well?

PatH · « **Reply #370 on:** July 01, 2011, 05:37:15 PM »

Hi, after a stretch of travel and house guests, I've finished the book, caught up on the posts, and am ready to stick in my final two cents, if you'll put up with me.

The end is sad, partly inevitable, but to me at least, fairly satisfying. O. F. has finally come to some sort of terms with the most horrendous incident of his youth. He said he didn't exactly want to confess, and wasn't repentant, but it was, in fact, a confession with a sort of absolution at the end. He had already come to a truce with whatever lay between him and Veneering. He has nothing much left he cares about in England. Going back to the East, he realizes he is a bit disappointed he wasn't hijacked and killed. Stepping off the plane, he is hit by the heat and smell and sound of the East, where he was truly happy for a few years as a child, and later spent the most productive and active years of his life. He feels he is truly Home. He collapses and dies. He was ready for it, and now he is Home.

straudetwo · « **Reply #371 on:** July 01, 2011, 09:25:23 PM »

Back home only for a few weeks, O.F. is drawn to the East, nothing and no one can stop him. He puts his house in order and leaves bequests for Kate and Garbutt.

He is at ease on the plane but later we realize that in his heart of hearts he might have been wishing to be hijacked. On the second day he is started by the dawn and two suns, a parhelion, a phenomenon so extraordinary and rare that it is considered an omen. An omen for good or
evil ? We don't know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_dog

Before the landing he is hit by a sudden weakness but steps on the gangplank where the heat, brilliant light, chatter, and the old beloved smell wash over him. He's come full circle, Home at last.
The ending is moving and dignified.

JoanP · « **Reply #372 on:** July 01, 2011, 10:57:56 PM »

I noticed the newly discovered Filth is finally able to remember his housekeeper's name. What is the significance of this, do you think?

PatH, I'm reading your post with bemusement - "the ending is sad, but satisfying. "Do the rest of you feel this way? Why is it sad? Wouldn't you appreciate such self-awakening and peace with yourself - before it's over? Perhaps you feel sad that his peace was so long in coming...that he lived his whole life in the shadow of Ma Diggs' death. Wouldn't a psychologist have been helped when the accident/murder happened all those years ago?

Thank you for the link to the parhelion, Traudee. Do you think we will experience this phenomenon in our lifetime? Maybe there is such an omen in store for each of us. So an omen, for good or bad - change is on the way. Our Filth is ready for it, isn't he?

Happy Canada Day, Jonathan! I saw the little flag designed to celebrate the occasion - or maybe it was to celebrate Cate - and the man who accompanied her to Canada.

Loss - Albert Ross is going to play an key role in the next book - Man in the Wooden Hat - I think we'll understand him better when we get started on that one.

straudetwo · « **Reply #373 on:** July 02, 2011, 12:32:44 AM »

JoanP, y the end of this book we know that for some reason O.F. is no longer in contact with Albert Ross/loss. On the flight eat he even asks a young lawyer who's come on board and sits next to him. The lawyer doe not recall Loss, nor ISLAM, the lawyer in brunei who gave O.F. the suitcase named 'revelation'.
JG titled this chapter 'The Revelation' - vut surely not only for the luggage ? Is she inferring that ultimately O.F. had a revelation on his return?
Oh, I so hope so. It would lessen the sadness we always feel when we lose someone. We have pitied him, and for good reason. He held out for a long time, but his life lost its meaning when Netty died. He developed health problems, and I had the image of a flickering candle.

Just for the fun of it I checked the ever-ready Google resources and found that this vintage expandable luggage is still on the market.

P.S. And as the bell tolls for O.F., the barrister watchers/commentators in the Inner Temple repeat their old mistaken refrain of his "long uneventful"life ! HA ! Little did they know.

Babi · « **Reply #374 on:** July 02, 2011, 09:24:50 AM »

I'm with you, JONATHAN. 'Old Faithful', imo, suits him much better.

Do you think he was wishing to be hijacked, TRAUDE? Maybe, after all the
disappointments of his life, he is simply mildly surprised that he got safely
to where he wanted to go. I no longer have the book or I'd re-read that part.

I found the conclusion definitely satisfying. All was as it should be..mind, heart
and soul clear and content. We should all be so lucky.

Steph · « **Reply #375 on:** July 02, 2011, 09:36:35 AM »

I loved the ending. He so needed peace and his Betty and the east and in the end had it.. I would love to go like that someday.. With my beloved by my side..
Now working on the wooden hat.. Quite a different book. At this point, I am not overfond of Betty..

straudetwo · « **Reply #376 on:** July 02, 2011, 10:11:48 AM »

Babi, yes I believe it was his innermost wish. He makes it quite clear :

For what was there left for him in the Donheads?
Stuck in that wet woodland place with Garbutt, Mrs. -er and lacy Chloe.
Well, there was still hope for obliteration on the return journey. Might achieve it.

And what a satisfying death, for him and for the readers.

Steph, the Betty we meet in the companion book is new to us. Here is our chance to learn all about her, why she married Edward and more.

bellamarie · « **Reply #377 on:** July 02, 2011, 11:47:51 AM »

I found this quote on my Facebook page today and thought it fitting for Edward.

‎"Only by acceptance of the past can you alter it."
– T.S. Eliot

JoanP,

Quote

I noticed the newly discovered Filth is finally able to remember his housekeeper's name. What is the significance of this, do you think?

I truly think Edward was so busy being a lawyer he never gave a second thought to the housekeeper, and once Garbutt pointed out to him how inconsiderate and rude he has been to never use Kate's name, he realized it was habit to call her Mrs. Err and made the effort to show her respect once he came back and had dealt with all his demons. When he thought about returning to his house in Donheads and she nor Garbutt would not be there he had to make an effort to get her to come back. He was touched to realize Garbutt came to visit him when he was sick. He seemed such a changed man after the confession. I thought the ending was fitting, returning to his HOME.

Straudetwo, The Betty in the companion book, is not new for me. In O.F. I did not take a liking to her because my instincts had me seeing her as the person she is in the companion book.

Steph, I never much liked Betty in the Old Filth book, and I definitely do NOT like her in The Man In the Wooden Hat. I finished the book and was not at all impressed with this companion book. JG could have easily added one third of the companion book to O.F. and covered it ALL ...IMO. I was able to read the companion book in less than a day on my nook color. I felt truly depressed when I finished TMITWH, I just had such disdain for Betty. Enough on that I don't even like remembering it......lolol

Ciao for now~

PatH · « **Reply #378 on:** July 02, 2011, 02:07:29 PM »

Quote from: straudetwo on July 02, 2011, 12:32:44 AM

JoanP, y the end of this book we know that for some reason O.F. is no longer in contact with Albert Ross/loss. .

By the end of the book Ross is dead, a passenger in one of the hijacked planes on 9/11. We are told that Eddie had already lost contact with him, but not why.

straudetwo · « **Reply #379 on:** July 02, 2011, 02:30:34 PM »

JoanP, Since we have about a week to look at TMITWH for answers we believe are missing in O.F., and for closure, I think we're after the broad picture rather than details, but definitely too early to jump to the end or pronounce judgment. Am I right ?

Several participants have read the first part and more, Bellamarie has finished the book.
I believe therefore that we can now address Jonathan's questions posed in the O.F, discussion.

1. Why did Betty marry him ?
2. Did she marry him for his money ? [/i]

So let me try. And please feel free to disagree,

Re 1. She was 28, tooling around in the Far East without any evident purpose, perhaps bored, realizing it was time to get marred. After all, she wanted c children, a house full of children.

Re 2. We cannot be totally sure about this, but we are told in this companion book that, though not exactly flush at this point in her life, she would come into an inheritance when turning 30, and she'd be independently wealthy.

An equally valid question would be why did Edward propose to her[/i] ?
Well on his way to fame of success, did he think he now needed the aadornement of a wife on his arm for personal validation ? Was he really that insecure ? (Possibly)

I don't recall that we were told how the two of them met (those who have the book on hand please enlighten me). But there wasn't much of a courtship.
Be that as it may, Edward's proposal came in the form of a letter, handwritten to be sure, in his impeccable hand, BUT on official stationery, which really was a faux pas. Where was the personal touch, the tenderness ? Of course Betty noticed. But she accepted. And Eward elicited from her the promise that she would never leave him. It became a mantra in their lives.

in the afternoon on the day of the proposal Edward takes Betty to a gathering of legal hot shots and introduces her as his betrothed, in her simple cotton dress, with the magnificent pearls incongruously around her neck. Sidelined and hungry, Betty wanders around and happens on the ready-and-waiting buffet table. Sitting under one of the tables is an Anglo-Chinese boy of about 8 or 9, who's helped himself to some lobster. There's an instant mutual affection. In short order Betty meets the boy's father, Terry veneering, Edward's nemesis of whom she'd only heard before . It is one of those rare moments of electrifying epiphanies that can change lives.
"One hour too late", thinks Betty.

straudetwo · « **Reply #380 on:** July 02, 2011, 02:45:22 PM »

P.S. Yes, PatH, at the end of O.F. Ross/Loss is presumed dead. We learn otherwise in the companion book

In haste. Company arriving ..

rosemarykaye · « **Reply #381 on:** July 02, 2011, 03:44:54 PM »

I have now read both books, and the only thing I really don't understand is the Albert Ross/Loss ending. I'm sure in Old Filth it says he died on one of the 9/11 planes, but TMITWH contradicts this. If anyone can provide some insight (I'm sure I'm missing something profound here because I really do believe that Jane Gardam writes everything for a purpose), I'd be grateful.

Rosemary

ursamajor · « **Reply #382 on:** July 02, 2011, 04:00:00 PM »

I didn[t care much for Betty either, in the first or the second book. I could not understand her fling (with Edward's enemy) immediately after agreeing to marry EDward. She struck me as being quite self-centered. We are led to believe that she was a virgin at the time of the engagement, which strikes me as quite unlikely for several reasons. I had great compassion for Edward. Of course, there is a relevation in MINTWH which I won't mention since not everybody has completed it. It changes the scene a little.

I think Edward married her because she promised to never leave him, and, as it turned out, she never did except through death. That was a terrible blow to Edward.

bellamarie · « **Reply #383 on:** July 02, 2011, 04:26:09 PM »

ursamajor,

Quote

I didn[t care much for Betty either, in the first or the second book. I could not understand her fling (with Edward's enemy) immediately after agreeing to marry EDward. She struck me as being quite self-centered.

I agree with you. Betty was like this even before she met Edward, so he can not be to blame. And as for her sleeping with Terry before they even were married showed, again it had nothing to do with Edward because they had not even really begun a relationship yet. She accepts his proposal and immediately sleeps with Terry. Ughhh....In O.F. I assumed the unfaithfulness took place after the marriage once she and Edward no longer were intimate. Betty seemed to want what she wanted, when she wanted it and didn't care who it may hurt. And she certainly wanted only the BEST and most expensive, even though she points out Edward never much cared about it, so it was all about her.

I think Edward married her because it was time for a man his age and his social position to have a wife. Neither married for love, even though they came to love each other throughout the years in a comfortable way. I didn't see either of them falling "IN" love with each other. They married for their own reasons and it had nothing to do with love. This companion book was depressing for me.

I did enjoy how Albert Loss seemed to be everywhere, know everything, and have the power to make or break people. He reminded me of a leprechaun with a magic hat. lolol Betty sure did not like him knowing her secrets.

Ciao for now~

straudetwo · « **Reply #384 on:** July 02, 2011, 07:24:51 PM »

Albert Ross knew of only one secret of Betty's ad he held that over her head.
"If you leave him, I'll destroy you" or was it "break" you ?)
He issued the same threat to Isobel. How presuptuous.

I have no use for people who hold a gun to another's head (literally or figuratively) simply because they are in possession of a damaging secret.
When Edward first broke the news to Loss that he was going to get married, Loss was not exactly bowled over. Was he jealous ? By what right ?
Nor do I like sycophants, thank you. There is something disturbingly creepy about this unfortunate excuse for a man who seemed not to have had a personal relationship of his own, and used the weaknesses of others to his own advantage, for the money it brought him and the secrets he held (renting out the tree house), in truth performing the work of a pimp.

It's been a while since I read the companion book and I canNnOT remember how Edard and Loss lost touch Can you tell me, Bellamarie ?
The fact is that Ross/Loss outlived Edward, and that I remember very well.

On the evening of the day of her engagement, Betty looked forward to some private time with her new fiance, but he put her off because it wouldn't "look right". So she went home to the second or third-rate hotel room she shared with Lizzy.
Early the next morning Betty and Lizzy heard on the radio that a British plane bound England with school children on board had crashed.
Almost hysterical and worriedlabout Harry, who was to be on a plane the night before, Betty slipped on the c otton dres and ran dress to the hotel were the Vendeerings and Edward were staying.

Harry is there, safe and sound. Veneering's wife had passed out the night before and they missed the plane. Moreover, it was a different Veneering sends her home but makes date with her for the evening.

On his day, the first day after the engagement there is no word from Edward. no message from Feathers.
At the appointed hour Betty is picked up by a cab and taken miles into a forest to a tree house, accessible by a ladder, where Veneering waits. A taxi picks her up and takes her miles away to a distant tree house.
She return to her hotel in the morning. This is the second day after the engagement, and there is still no word from Edward.

Much later in the book, when the two old men are neighbors and 'friends', just before Vendeering goes on the cruise to Malta, Edward tells him that after getting engaged to Betty, he stayed holed up in his hotel room for a two-day tryst with Isobel. That is quite a bombshell and late in the day.

They were engaged, not yet married. But the transgression was he same. Why would Betty be more harshly condemned than Edward ?

We are told in the book that nothing like it happened ever again between Betty and Vendeering, but their feeling of love endured, even though Terry was a philanderer both before and after. He asked Betty to leave Edward - the last time when he called her after Harry's death.

And we do see in the companion book how close Betty comes to leaving her husband. But it is too late. She cannot bring herself to do it and her strength and her heart give out as she is planting tulip bulbs a day later. I is death that separates them.

If we were to judge (something I am not inclined to do), I believe that both Betty and Edward should be judged in equal measure for the same transgression.

But I must wonder : is that all we take away from this book, nothing else ? That'd be a pity.

serenesheila · « **Reply #385 on:** July 02, 2011, 08:18:55 PM »

Iam now caught up with the posts, here. I wasn't sad at the way OF ended. I had been expecting it to be death that ended it. I have mixed feelings about Edward. It seems to me that he is aloof, self centered, and a bit of a snob. Yet, his life, and all of the abandonment touched my heart.

I haven't picked up TMITWH, since the first day when I read half of it. In OF, I felt quite sad for Betty. I did not dislike her. I would liked to have known the full story of the pearls, at the time she buried the one set during tulip planting. In the 2nd book, I could not understand why, at age 28, she felt she could not break her engagement to E. Even without Verneering, she was to inheirit a substantial sum of money, in 2 years. Breaking her commitment would have freed E. to find and marry someone who really did love him.

It also sounded to me as if she barely knew E. when she accepted his proposal. Why didn't she know he was emotionally unavailable? Even a few weeks of knowing each other would have given her some insight into that side of him, I would think. I am sure he was attracted to her, perhaps even was beginning to love her, as much as he was capable of loving anyone.

I can understand, and accept the sudden passion between Betty and V. I know from experience those things can hppen. She and E. had only been engaged fo a few hours. Perhaps the fact that V. was married, with a child, prevented her from breaking her engagement to OF. It is time for me to pick up TMITWH again, and see what else there is to discover. I do think that the friensdhip between OF and LOSS, went deeper than just friendship betwen two men..I wonder if LOSS was hhomosexual? I certainly do not think that E. was.

Sheila

bellamarie · « **Reply #386 on:** July 02, 2011, 09:01:59 PM »

Straude, I don't see it judging, if we say we do not like a character. In real life I would not like Betty, and would not want to associate with her. She spent her entire marriage sneaking around seeing Terry and his son. She gave money to Harry without telling her husband, even if it was her own money it was deceptive. She wanted to leave Edward all those years, all the way up to the end of the book. Wearing the "guilty" pearls in front of Edward thinking she was getting away with her infidelities, and letting Terry see she is wearing his pearls was just cruel. The whole attachment to Harry made no sense to me. Just one more reason to be close to Terry?

Edward sleeping with Isobel before marriage was not right, but he did not carry on throughout their marriage as Betty and Veneering did. They met more than once, phone calls, slipping away at the dinner parties etc. The difference to me is that Betty was "IN" love with Veneering throughout their entire marriage. She was selfish, she promised to never leave Edward, but in fact she left him before she married him, just not physically. In the end when Edward let Veneering know he knew all about them and that Betty gave Harry the money, I felt this showed Veneering that Betty was as dishonest with him as she was with Edward. It was like two men with huge egos, fighting over a woman who was not honest to either of them.

It never gave a specific reason why Edward and Loss were not in touch for those years. I thought it was because Loss traveled alot for his business.

I just did not care for the companion book at all. It was all about Betty's secret life and lies. I'm really not sure what I can take away from this companion book. I feel I would have been more satisfied ending Old Filth with unanswered questions, rather than reading the companion book and learning just how deceptive Betty, Loss, Veneering, Harry, Isobel, and Edward were.

Ciao for now~

JoanP · « **Reply #387 on:** July 02, 2011, 09:19:05 PM »

Who do you see as "the man" in the title? Is it Loss? Don't you wonder how much time the author spends on the titles of these books?
Can someone point me to the "wooden hat" scene in the museum. ... I think I'm forgetting something important thereI can't seem to find it.

I'm wondering why Edward never seemed to count Loss as the faithful friend he was - A friend who always had his back, someone who never left him. When he caught Betty and Veneering, he threatened to break her if she left him.
He was always there, in the background. At the end too - at the funeral, remember that scene?
We're looking at this book as Betty's side of things, but Isn't Loss really at the heart of the story?

Did you get the feeling that Jane Gorham answered many many of our questions, only to leave us with more in the end? I'm afraid if we swallow down The Man in the Wooden Hat in one big gulp we'll miss the many nuances - and answers to questions from Old Filth the author has provided us. I hope you've noted some of the things you questioned in Old Filth. Traude's question begs an answer - did Jane Gorham plan to write this story as she wrote Old Filth - or did she write it in response to readers' questions following its publication?

Sheila, are we certain that Betty did not love Filth - even if he was "emotionally unavailable"?
She tells her best friend Amy that she doesn't know if she loves him - that she thinks she does. There's a scene after the miscarriage when she holes up in the house in Dorset where she seems really overjoyed when he comes to find her - "She thought, I love him." I think she did. What she felt for Veneering was not love, in my opinion. It was physical attraction - it was exciting, he was the first man who swept her off her feet. He's married with a little boy. Both of them knew what this was about. I don't think she loved Veneering - but he excited her in a way that Filth never did.
The same can be said of the way Filth felt about Isobel. He and Betty had never experienced what he had with her. But he married Betty.

As far as you can tell, was either one of them unfaithful after they married? I think the answer to that is important. Bella, do you think Betty ever had relations with Veneering after she married Filth? I thought Loss had ended that aspect of their relationship...

bellamarie · « **Reply #388 on:** July 02, 2011, 11:42:59 PM »

JoanP,

Quote

As far as you can tell, was either one of them unfaithful after they married? I think the answer to that is important. Bella, do you think Betty ever had relations with Veneering after she married Filth? I thought Loss had ended that aspect of their relationship...

Betty was unfaithful in continuing her contact and deceit with Veneering and Harry. But I do think there was more than the one time before the marriage because when Veneering and Edward were having their argument before Veneering leaves for his cruise Edward says, "I suspected I was infertile. Something to do with _perhaps mumps at school. Apparently I talked to Ross_when I had fever in Africa. I can't remember any of it. Nobody knew any of it, except perhaps Isobel." "Look, Veneering, it doesn't matter which of us was the father of the child." "Child!" "The child she lost. Before she had the hysterectomy. Yours or mine, it was not to be. What matters is to face something quite differently. Betty didn't love either of us very much. The one she loved was your son Harry." "Yes," he said, his pale old face peering down. "Yes. I believe she did love Harry." "Why else would she have given him ten thousand pounds?" "That's a lie! It is a lie! She told me herself that Harry never asked her for money." ...So that's fixed him, thought Filth. I've won.

So like I suspected before...did the VD leave Edward sterile? He said "perhaps mumps."

Quote

I'm wondering why Edward never seemed to count Loss as the faithful friend he was - A friend who always had his back, someone who never left him. When he caught Betty and Veneering, he threatened to break her if she left him.

But why was Loss so attached to Edward? Was he "the faithful friend?" In the end we find out he too was dishonest to Edward when we learn the watch has been in his hat all along. I'm completely confused about that, but then these two books have kept me frustrated and confused throughout. So Isobel ends up being a lesbian/bisexual and she is what turned Edward on, and Veneering was married and turned Betty on. So why marry each other? Marriage of convenience I suppose.

Ciao for now~

bellamarie · « **Reply #389 on:** July 03, 2011, 12:03:42 AM »

I'm not sure but I thought I saw someone post Loss died before Edward. In the companion book it has Loss attending Edward's services. One of Amy's children ask, "Who's that creature?" "He looks like a pickled walnut." The dwarf, the pickled walnut, was being helped into his Rolls Royce. He handed his large felt hat to the Chief Clerk. "I've done with it," he said. "Keep it in the Chambers. It is your foundation stone." "Aren't you coming in to the wake, Mr. Ross?" "No. Plane to catch. I am en route to Kabul. Goodbye." Waving a hero's wave he was spirited away. "Is it all a pantomine?" asked one of the children and the poet said, "Something of the sort."

What did Loss mean by, "It is your foundation stone." and then they find Edward's watch in it. hmmmm...

rosemarykaye · « **Reply #390 on:** July 03, 2011, 02:14:18 AM »

straude - I think what I take away from the books is the understanding that everyone perceives the same things differently, and that we can never really entirely know another person.

I also think that all of the main characters in the book (although I'm not sure about Ross/Loss) have been damaged by their childhoods, by the very fact that they are all Raj children. I think at some point we are told that Betty's friend Amy "was not Raj" - and don't you think she comes across as much more straightforward and able to live? She has what appears to be a happy marriage, lots of babies, and fewer hang-ups - although maybe if JG had written a novel about her (perhaps she will!) we would have found out other things about her too.

I don't think Betty is any worse than Edward - they have both cared for one another, and they have both transgressed. What JG shows us right at the end is that Edward knew, but he still loved her - and she stayed with him, even though Veneering asked her to leave - so IMO they have both shown the kind of loving sacrifices that many of us make at points during our marriages. As has been pointed out, Betty did not need to stay with Edward for his money.

To quote the last words of that wonderful film, Some Like It Hot - "nobody's perfect!"

Rosemary

Steph · « **Reply #391 on:** July 03, 2011, 08:40:47 AM »

I am not finished with the book yet, but I confess that I feel that Betty was in love with the child.That was the instant attraction.. I was also surprised to discover she was a virgin. She certainly did not act like one..
I cannot like her. I think because I knew what Edwards life was like, I had sympathy for him. He tried, but his early life was such a horror.. Betty... I know that I should be more sympathetic. She was in the Prison of War camp and that had to be awful.. I just flat out dont like Vaneering. Met too many men like that in my life

ursamajor · « **Reply #392 on:** July 03, 2011, 09:15:28 AM »

I guess I tend to excuse Edward for the night with Isobel (Lizzie!?) because I perceive Isobel as the seducer, as she surely was in his previous relations with her. Edward did not seem to me to have much of a sex drive; he started off with the Buttermilk Girl who came and got into bed with him and he never seemed to much care about sex, even with Betty. This could be a remnant of his childhood misfortunes or he could just have been that sort of man. I could see no excuse at all for Betty's falling into Vaneering's arms after maintaining her virginity until she was 28 and just becoming engaged to another man.

PatH · « **Reply #393 on:** July 03, 2011, 10:14:41 AM »

Quote from: Steph on July 03, 2011, 08:40:47 AM

.. Betty... I know that I should be more sympathetic. She was in the Prison of War camp and that had to be awful..

Yes. It's not emphasized, but Betty's childhood might have been even more damaging than Eddie's. Have any of you read J. G. Ballard's "Empire of the Sun"? Although told in a slightly unrealistic way, it's basically a fictionalized account of his actual childhood experiences in a POW camp near Shanghai, and it's pretty horrendous. I'm guessing that accounts for the tone of his other fiction--the few other things of his I've read are dark almost to the point of madness.

Betty may well have had an easier time of it than Ballard, but we know that her mother died in the camp, and she was malnourished to an extent that affected her growth and messed up her reproductive system.

Babi · « **Reply #394 on:** July 03, 2011, 11:47:06 AM »

I have asked my older daughter to bring me TMITWH from her library; mine
doesn't have it. I gather from the above posts that the second book is being
discussed here, and there will be no change of site? I can see I already have
some catching up to do.

straudetwo · « **Reply #395 on:** July 03, 2011, 12:08:33 PM »

JoanP, reply # 387
Thank you for that. And yes, I believe Betty loved her husband. He realied early it would be a marriage without passion. She got married also to please her dead mother.

And as PatH said, Betty's childhood was just as hard as Edward's.

straudetwo · « **Reply #396 on:** July 03, 2011, 08:22:33 PM »

Much to my regret, only part of my post was transmitted. I don't know what the problem was and could not immediately correct it because the family was here. Here's what wa there origially.
d
JoanP,re your reply # 387. Yes, I believe that Betty loved her husband. Early on she realized that it would be a marriage without passion, that the children she wanted would be compensation enough. Yes, there wa love.

PatH, yes, Betty's childhood was every bit as arduous and disturbing as Edward's. An only child, she was raised in an internment camp where both of her parents died. Her mother's wish for her was to make a proper marriage. And so she did.

There can be no doubt that being married to O.F. was not easy. The man was a workaholic, and often left her alone because of his cases, expecting her to wait for him patiently and make sure the household was running smoothly. She did, without complaint, and never failed him. He acknowledged it himself.

Yes, JoanP, I agree. Albert Ross/Loss plays am important role in Betty's and Edward's lives. The book's title points to him.
Yet at the end of the second book there are lingering questions about this man. In the second book the the reader learns no more about the provenance and the nebulous parentage of this man, or what drives Lott. From the very first pages of the second book we see Loss's extreme possessiveness (and attempted manipulation

) of Edward, who has waited until the last possible moment I(Ha) to inform Loss of his plans.
Small wonder tht Loss is not bowled over but skeptical and unable to do anything about it.
Given this dependency, how did a separation come about ?
How exactly did they part ? At the end of his life, Edward does not know whre Lott is and thinks he wasw a victim of the Twin Towers attack.
UIn truth and as we see at the very nd, Loss is very much a presence at Edward's funeral, having outlived Edward. He oon takes his leave, but differently this time : he leaves his legendary hat behind and does not attend the wake.
The hat is passed around. The son of Edward's new neighbors wo live in Veneering's house holds it, spots the zipper, is urged to open it.
Inside he finds a pouch with THE cards and an old watch. Edward's, one assumes.

Was that Koss's final goodbye ? Why surrendering the legendary cards and Edward's watch now ? What had Edward's watch meant to Loss and why did Loss keep it for all thowe years ? Only JG knows.

So what did Loss have on Betty ? Answer : the tree house. Loss owned it. He rented it it out by the hour or the night, profiting handsomely from the weaknesses of his fellow humans. Apparently his habit was to go there and inspect the place for order or God knows what.

After the two-day silnce, Feathers called Betty and told her she would be picked up by his associate Loss and taken to a festivity. A Mercedes was waiting for Betty at the appointed time, a chauffeur and Loss inside. The door did not open immdiately; Loss needed to take a look at her first.
They set off, out came the cards. Th drove through increasingly impoverished, dilapidated neighborhoods. , Were are we going?, asked Betty. Through the forests and to the tree house with the ladder outside. Loss climbed down from his seat, out of the car and, with difficulty, up the ladder, disappearing inside the abode. Back down, he was helped into the car. Then he hrew Bettys green evening bag at her and said
"You forgot your passport." I recall the chapter ending with these words. There really is no need for any other comment.

This was the weapon he held over betty's head for years. Loss also knew ablout edward's two nights with Isobel an threatened her, too.
A thoroughly contemptible man, in my estimatin.

Also at the end of the second book, and unfortunately so is more information on Edward, Betty and Veneering. What is revealed can, in my opinion, instantly dispel the speculations advanced here before. Before I proceed to do that, JoanP, I'd like your OK to do o, Thank y ou.

straudetwo · « **Reply #397 on:** July 03, 2011, 08:57:14 PM »

Oh my word, the last post has taken me hours. I've been subjected to an apparent tantrum by the computer, or was it the browser, and continued, steadfast, despite all kinds of warning error messages = not experienced before.

After all that turmoil at least the gist of what I had to say is THERE even if not in the perfect form I'd prefer.

Babi, I am sorry we are proceeding here with a book not all of us have - and I'm one of them. I only have my memory to rely on.
But as JoanP said, we have only a week for this unscheduled book. Yet, some of the surprising revelations in the companion book really required disclosure now - to give these remarkable books the credit they deserve.
.
I'll wait to hear from JoanP before saying any more.
Traude

PatH · « **Reply #398 on:** July 03, 2011, 10:22:46 PM »

Betty has a lot of doubts about marrying Eddie, and has had this passionate interlude with Veneering, but she is also really attracted to him, and it's clear that she does love him. On her honeymoon, she has a revelation, when they are buying the throne-chair, that "yes, I really do love him", and there are several more incidents later in which her love is obvious. Eddie loves her too; he tells Loss "I would die for her."

But neither is straightforward with the other. Each has hidden the affair on the eve of their marriage. Eddie has done something more. He has reason to believe he is infertile, and he doesn't share that with Betty. He doesn't yet know how passionately she wants children, but one of the assumptions of marrying is accepting the possibility of having children with your spouse. If you are unwilling or unable to do this, it needs to be part of the decision to marry, and he has denied her this.

Basically, I think they both want a kind of emotional stability, comfort, and understanding.

Is there any evidence at all for Betty ever sleeping with Veneering after that first night? I don't remember any, but I may have missed something. The miscarried baby could have been either Veneering's or Eddie's, since it seems to date from the time of the marriage.

straudetwo · « **Reply #399 on:** July 03, 2011, 11:27:16 PM »

PatH thank you for your post. I could not agree more.

And as for that night Betty spent with Vendeering, to the best of my recollection, it was never repeated.
If there is proof to the contrary, we need to see it quoted. Here.

News:

Author Topic: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online (Read 126649 times)