Author Topic: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online (Read 126635 times)

JoanP · « **Reply #40 on:** June 03, 2011, 09:37:18 PM »

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.

June Bookclub Online Everyone is welcome!

Old Filth
by Jane Gardam

"The opening pages of the book find Filth (Sir Edward Feathers), a retired but still unassailable old barrister whose reputation has grown to such mythic proportions that it obstructs the hard truths of a man so damaged by his past that he has found himself forever unable to love.
It's only as Filth toddles gracefully into old age that he can begin to rediscover the parts of himself that he has locked away and come to terms with the dark secrets that made him the man he became." (Reviewed by Maggie O'Farrell)

The novelist, Jane Gardam was born in Coatham, North Yorkshire on July 11. 1928. Her title character's late-in-life questions about whether his life has had meaning are especially moving—and universal, given this author's own experience and age.
“Both witty and poignant, this work is more than a character study; through her protagonist, Gardam offers a view of the last days of empire as seen from post-9/11 Britain. Borrowing from biography and history, Gardam has written a literary masterpiece that retraces much of of the 20th century's torrid and momentous history.” Library Journal

click on map twice to enlarge

Discussion Schedule for the coming week:

- June 6 - June 13 ~ Inner Temple; Wales; The Donheads; The Outfit; Tulips; The Ferment; The Donheads; School; p.49-128 (Up to The Time of Frenzy)

Some Topics for Consideration
June 6 - 13

1.Did you feel you were looking at a photograph when introduced to the children who had been living in the Didds' house? Did their appearance in this picture suggest anything to you?

2. Have you changed your mind about Betty and Edward's relationship? Why did you think Betty may have buried the expensive pearls with the tulip bulbs?

3. Does Pat Ingoldby's frequent black moods seem to affect his relationship with his friend, "Fevvers"? What did you think of his family?
What became of their close friendship?

4. Sir plays a crucial role, no? Were you surprised that both of the boys' fathers had been at this school with Sir? Were you surprised that both fathers had fought together in the Great War? Do you have more of an understanding of Eddie's father now?

5. Wasn't that a magnificent, convincing letter Eddie wrote to his father? Why is he "red with rage" as he writes it? Do you think the ps he added to the letter has really "spoiled" his case?

6. Babs is back! Do we learn more of the Ma Didd's affair, "the affair that was, and still was - his closed locked box"?

7. What new mystery does Isobel Ingoldby's letter of condolence raise? How did Eddie react to her letter?

Related Links:
UK Legal System (rosemarykaye);
The British Empire;
A Brief Biography of Rudyard Kipling;
Kipling's "Baa Baa Black Sheep";

Discussion Leaders: Traude & Joan P

PatH · « **Reply #41 on:** June 03, 2011, 09:44:14 PM »

Quote from: bellamarie on June 03, 2011, 05:54:17 PM

What do you suppose this meant, it is under the pic in the second link....(Nasty vicious spiteful children of limited intellect)

That was presumably put in by the photographer, and looks like one of the standard digs against lawyers that you see all the time. Some lawyers love them--my lawyer father and his lawyer friends would gleefully send each other Christmas cards with Daumier's vicious drawings of lawyers. My favorite was the lawyer telling a weeping widow: "It's true you lost your case, but you had the wonderful pleasure of hearing my magnificent argument." (An approximate quote)

The stereotype doesn't fit my experience, since my father was the most honorable person I've ever known, and a warm and human person, and my daughter became a lawyer to fight against certain social injustices, and is pursuing a slightly unconventional career doing so.

Jonathan · « **Reply #42 on:** June 03, 2011, 10:07:55 PM »

And I'm just packing my bags to get out of town for a few days. I'm committed. I would be breaking a promise if I cancelled. I'll miss your posts. The book looks very promising. There's no telling where it will take us. All around the world of course, but more interestingly, in the lives of the characters. Of course it seems a bit confusing, but an old man's memories aren't always transparent. Perhaps we're meant to look at everything through a child's eyes. Or the eyes of the three orphans staging such a tableaux vivant at the Didd's farmhouse in Wales. Why so pale and wan, Eddie?

He's such an elegant, distinguished figure later in life. Why is he made the butt of that old joke, a very bad joke? He seems without emotions, except for that hatred of Veneering. He was not a failure in London. It seems to me he took the first opportunity to get away from England. Going to Hong Kong was like going Home. He never stammers when he talks about Kotakinakulu.

I'm fairly certain, Bellamarie, that the author would know that the inscription is a Charles Lamb quote. Thanks, Joan, for finding that.

Interesting to hear talk about staying on. That will be significant for some of us. Staying on in Hong Kong didn't seem to be an option. Sir Edward talks about the barbarians at the gate. (Those communists from the mainland?) With a 50% failure rate in administering justice and the need to live behing chained gates, perhaps it was a security concern that brought him and Betty back to England. And now he discovers that he has a potential killer next door!

Gum, I like the Holbrook Jackson quote: Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Here are the facts, Gardam seems to say. What do you make of them?

Interesting to hear about the blind barrister, Mckern, senior. Trying to play the part? Blind justice?

Jonathan · « **Reply #43 on:** June 03, 2011, 10:11:51 PM »

I know just the Daumier you are referring to, Pat. I've got several volumes of his splendid caricatures. Just the greatest.

straudetwo · « **Reply #44 on:** June 04, 2011, 12:23:30 AM »

At this point we are not able to find an answer to questions 4 and 5. There is no way of knowing what made Edward's father the man he is, why he neglects (and doesn't recognize) his own son, until pressed by Aunty May.

From our discussion of The Jewel in the Crown we know that British missionaries came to India, and other colonies, of different denominations, in the sincere attempt to bring Jesus to the infidels. When gathering children around them, of both Hindu and Muslim parents,
often desperately poor, the children came because they were given chapatis, a slice of flat wheat bread, a staple in that part of the world.

We are told that Aunty May was a Baptist missionary, affiliated with the Baptist hospital in Kotakinakulu (a fictious name). Her role, apparently, was to oversee the transfer of children to England and, once they were there, keep track of them. And if, as in the case of Edward's father, parents did not accompany the child/children themselves, Aunty May would do so.

She was concerned for the children, frst and foremost. And as much as she may have deplored the established custom of sending them Home, how could any lone effort of rebellion change it ? Wouldn't she have found herself at odds with the Baptist superiors ? Is what Aunty May did really "kidnapping" ?

From what we've read so far, Auntie May did very well by Edward; she got Alistair to pay in advance for his son's later schooling in institutions Alistair himself had attended, and she kept watch.

Steph · « **Reply #45 on:** June 04, 2011, 06:03:59 AM »

OK.. Caught up on the first 59 pages.. Oh me, he was certainly abandoned from day one, but probably did not think of it when he was younger than four since he had someone he loved.. But then Wales and some sort of horror.. But I can see where later he would go back to Hong Kong. It is where he was loved when little..
The Christmas and Deering makes you wonder about Edward. Why the hate.. Deering does not seem to share it.. I am interested thus far and will simply ignore too much psychological musings here..I like the author to tell me about the setting, not research.. And she does in this case.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #46 on:** June 04, 2011, 09:00:55 AM »

His mother died of "puerperal fever" (staph infection?) after giving birth to a long, rangy, red-headed, eight-pound boy at the Clinic in Malay. Her body was buried immediatly, but I can't understand Filth's father, seems rather a cold fish, nobody liked him. Didn't want to see the baby. Perhaps he was very depressed over his wife's death?

The boy spent little time in Asia but they were glorious years where, perhaps, his heart remained. Do you think as Jonathan remarked that is why he went to Hong Kong? Maybe he went in search of his Ada, would he have remembered her?

JoanP · « **Reply #47 on:** June 04, 2011, 12:22:54 PM »

Sally - On Monday, we'll be starting to discuss the next section - maybe we'll find some answers to our questions - maybe not. Jane Gardam will reveal them in her own good time, it seems.

June 6 - June 13 Inner Temple; Wales; The Donheads; The Outfit; Tulips; The Ferment; The Donheads; School; p. 49-128
We'll forward to hearing from you, Sally! Welcome back!

Ella, there does seem to be something not quite right with Filth's father. Remember he didn't see his pregnant wife off when she left to give birth to the baby. That seemed a bit odd - don't you think? As you say, young Eddie did spend a few happy years with his maid, Ada -
I never thought he might have returned to Hong Kong to relive those happy years.

"His mother died of "puerperal fever" (staph infection?) after giving birth ." You remind me of Lamb's verse, Ella -

"I had a mother, but she died, and left me,
Died prematurely in a day of horrors -
All, all are gone, the old familiar faces." Charles Lamb, essayist, poet

Jane Gardam had Kipling's Baa Baa Black Sheep in mind when she wrote of the children sent HOME from the Empire for care and schooling. Now we have Charles Lamb's influence on the story...the statue and the inscription - which she puts in a prominent position in the front of the book. Then we find Lamb's verse - to remind us that our boy had three handicaps from the very beginning - no mother at home during his early years, a disinterested father - and then his time in Wales with the strange Didd family.

Bellamarie, an interesting quote from the Jane G NPR interview - "I tend to see in people's faces the child's face. The child's face is the most important face we have." Do you understand what she means?

rosemarykaye · « **Reply #48 on:** June 04, 2011, 12:36:58 PM »

Isn't puerperal fever what Daphne Manners died of in The Jewel In The Crown? I believe it was all too common in those days.

Rosemary

JoanP · « **Reply #49 on:** June 04, 2011, 02:07:39 PM »

Puerperal fever (from the Latin puer, male child (boy), also called childbed fever - I think I remember that this was a common, often illness contracted during the first three days after childbirth.. Do you suppose it was more common in the colonies?

Jonathan, we'll surely miss you. Will keep this in mind..."Perhaps we're meant to look at everything through a child's eyes"...
Interesting... he never stammers when he talks about Kotakinakulu.. Can YOU say it without hesitation?

The stammer must have developed when he went to the Didds. Steph - I feel the author is begging us to consider the psychological implications - just from the little that she tosses out to us. Everything has implications - left for the reader to ponder. More on the Didds this coming week. I wonder if Gardam will let us know what happened there. I fear she won't, preferring to keep us wondering - the worst possible scenario.
"And now he discovers that he has a potential killer next door." Really, Jonathan? Is that how you see Veneering? I sensed that Filth was the one who wished to avoid Veneering - not the other way around. We still have no clue why Veneering has moved next door. Yet another mystery left to unfold.

"I feel Jane did a great job in making us feel Edward and Betty's closeness, affection and love for each other." Bellamarie, I didn't see that love - though once he was alone, will agree that Filth misses Betty... Maybe that's because I read the next chapters! Read on!

June 6 - June 13 Inner Temple; Wales; The Donheads; The Outfit; Tulips; The Ferment; The Donheads; School; p. 49-128

Babi · « **Reply #50 on:** June 04, 2011, 04:43:03 PM »

That "50% failure rate" sounds extreme to me. It was Sir Edward himself who
said that, and I'm wondering if he isn't being overly severe here. It may be
a more detached critic would not agree with that view at all. I'm suspending
judgment until I hear more about his Hong Kong career.

Edward's father, sadly for Edward, has emotionally detached himself from
his son. My own reaction at his reluctance to send Edward away is that his
own experience as a Raj child may have been a very harsh one. It may be the
only point on which he feels any relationship to Edward at all.
Auntie May is undoubtedly not to happy at her role in sending these children
away, but she also feels it is necessary. That would be especially true in
Edward's case, where he is growing up wholly native. His father would never
stir himself on Edward's behalf without Auntie May's prodding.

I'm hoping we'll learn more about Wales later. From what I read, tho, the cruelty
occurred in the school, not with the family caring for the children. Auntie May had sent
children to this family before, and I'm confident she would not have left them with cruel
people. What I couldn't understand is why Edward's aunts did not take the boy. That would
surely have been the most natural arrangement. I can only assume they were as egocentric
and detached as their brother, Edward's father.

bellamarie · « **Reply #51 on:** June 04, 2011, 05:01:05 PM »

I feel Jane meant that each of us still have the face of a child in us, the part that reminds us of the innocence and she looks for that in people.

You are blowing me away with finding all the references to Charles Lamb's quotes.

Oh JoanP, you must go back and read pages 17 - 22, I see throughout those pages a couple that was very much in love, comfortable with their lives together and content with their interests. Maybe I am just a hopeless romantic, but reading "They put their hearts into becoming content, safe in their successful lives..." "But if any old pair had been born to become retired ex-pats in Hong Kong, members of the Cricket Club, the Jockey Club, stalwarts of the English Lending Library, props of St. Andrew's Church and St. John's Cathedral, they were Filth and Betty." " Old Filth and Betty were perfectly international people, beloved ornaments at every one of the Memorial Services to old friends, English or Chinese, in the Cathedral." And then on pg. 21 "So they were secluded but not cut off. And it worked. They made it work. Betty was the sort of woman who had plotted that the end of her life would work, and Filth, having Betty, had no fears of failure."

Oh dear am I going to be surprised in the next chapters? I shall read on....

Ciao for now~

straudetwo · « **Reply #52 on:** June 04, 2011, 10:12:03 PM »

Bellamarie, yes, "... and Filth, having Betty, had no fears of failure." are important words.

Ella, rs. Feathers went to the clinic by boat, accompanied by by a Malay woman and her own baby ads wet nurse for the new baby who, the mother-to-be was certain, would be a girl. Instead, she had a long, rangy, red-headed, eight-pound boy, Edward, and passed the pink garment she had knitted to the wet nurse for her baby, who never wore it.

Score of women died from puerperal fever until Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis (1818-1865) found that the fever was caused by a germ, due to obstetricians' lack of hygiene, and that the number of infections could be significantly reduced by washing hands. with an antiseptic.
When he finally reported his findings, his colleagues protested and were insulted by his suggestion. His advice was not heeded until after his death, when Louis Pasteur confirmed the existence of the germ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis

PatH · « **Reply #53 on:** June 05, 2011, 12:07:14 AM »

It's hard to answer a lot of the questions, both those in the heading, and those that we are all coming up with, because we are still in the set-up phase in the book.

Abandonment is evidently going to be a major factor in the book, but we've only begun to see it. Although his father emotionally abandoned him even before birth, O. F. didn't feel it in his first four years. He was in a village where everyone loved him, and one woman, Ada, particularly loved him and watched out for him. Loved, accepted, cared for, able to play happily, it doesn't get much better than that. Now he's off to Wales, and leaving is quite a wrench, but we won't see how this plays out until the next chunk.

And flashbacks aside, what is going to happen to O. F. now? When we first see him, Betty is still alive, though not for long. Then it says, p. 22:

"Looking back, Filth knew that knew that the years after Betty's departure had been a time of mental breakdown and that mental breakdown in someone conditioned to an actor's life (which is the bar) can be invisible both to the sufferer and everyone else."

What does this mean? Are we going to watch him degenerate into madness? And if so, is he going to pull out of it? Or is he just finally going to come to terms with whatever the sore point is between him and Veneering?

Lots of questions, but no answers yet.

Steph · « **Reply #54 on:** June 05, 2011, 06:18:34 AM »

Will try and start t he new section today. I am interested in Vaneering and why he does not seem to hate Edward.. Edward hates and fears him.. But at least was sensible enough to get in out of the cold rather than die from pride.

JoanP · « **Reply #55 on:** June 05, 2011, 07:28:48 AM »

Good morning, Steph -
You bring up the interesting question about Veneering, Filth's only neighbor, his only acquaintance in this remote corner of the world. Yet he seems to be the last person on earth that Filth wants to see. Veneering seems to be in the same situation - no friends, facing his last days in loneliness - though he seems to be reaching out to Filth. As you say, he doesn't seem to hate Edward.

You're right, PatH - lots of questions, nothing but questions - I think we are prepared and eager to head into the next chapters with antennae at the ready for answers. Do you have the feeling that Jane Gardam is not going to just hand answers to us?

I've been reading your posts again - and see things that I hadn't really considered... -

Babi - That "50% failure rate" sounds extreme to me." I remember thinking that was really high, too. His failures would have been in Hong Kong, right? Even if it was not quite this high, it must have been high enough that this judge would have made many enemies - would have to live an increasingly guarded life as Hong Kong changed. Who would want to stay on here? A rather secluded life in Dorset would be just the ticket. I just can't let go of how peculiar it is that Veneering has set himself up in the house next door. And how Filth is ignoring him! Remember when he said he has trained himself to forget? Is he trying to forget something about Veneering ?- Veneering doesn't seem to have the same memory, does he? But he hasn't made an effort to contact Filth either...Is that important?

Bellamarie - the lines you have quoted to enforce the fact that Filth and Betty have had a loving marriage appear to me to indicate a forced determination to make the marriage work - on Betty's part.
"Betty was the sort of woman who had plotted that the end of her life would work..."

- It never occurred to me that the horror in Wales may have occurred in the school, Babi. I've been blaming Mrs. Didds... but the school opens up a whole new realm of possibilty. We need to pack up and go to Wales for more information...

- And why haven't his aunts made any effort to see the boy. They are as hard-hearted, as detached as their brother. What is it about the boy that hardens them to his very exixtence? A little boy, alone in the world? The only touching moment was when his father handed him his mother's little box. Does it mean anything to the little boy? He never knew his mother...he didn't even know until that moment that he had a father...

"I feel Jane meant that each of us still have the face of a child in us, the part that reminds us of the innocence and she looks for that in people." Bellamarie, I'm getting the feeling that the boy's "innocence" is more "cluelessness" than anything else? (Or is that what "innocence" is?)

JoanP · « **Reply #56 on:** June 05, 2011, 07:44:43 AM »

PatH - your comments on mental breakdown being invisible raise more questions. Do you sense that Filth is heading for a breakdown?

Remember the comments of the two old judges about Firth, when he came into the Inner Temple for lunch the day he came to London to change his will (another question - what's that about?)... They comment that Firth has had a pretty easy life - "Nothing ever seems to have happened to him." Maybe this is the problem?
But there men seem to be envious of Filth's life - for this reason.

Rosemary - this is probably a very silly question for you - regarding barristers in the UK? Do they still wear the wigs in court? And if so, assuming there are now female barristers, do they wear the same wigs too?

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #57 on:** June 05, 2011, 08:42:05 AM »

Just beginning to read the Wales chapter; all about SIR and here little Edward is stammering. Did he stammer before coming to Wales? Do we know? Well, I shall read on. Somehow I am reminded of the recent movie THE KING'S SPEECH. I'm sure most of us saw it, Colin Firth was outstanding in the role I thought, although his coach was on a par.

I don't think Filth and Betty had a loving marriage, either, JoanP. Although Filth misses his "companion" which Betty seemed to be and a companion is a good, good thing. She managed, she was busy, she was good with servants.

rosemarykaye · « **Reply #58 on:** June 05, 2011, 08:53:24 AM »

JoanP - yes they do still have to wear wigs in the higher courts, and yes, women wear them too! When my last boss became a sheriff (ie a judge in Scottish courts) the firm bought him a wooden stand for his wig!

Rosemary

Babi · « **Reply #59 on:** June 05, 2011, 09:03:50 AM »

Oops,..I seem to have gotten a little bit ahead in my reference to the school.
Sorry. You'll see in the chapter 'Wales'.

"Nothing ever seems to have happened to him." That phrase occurs more than once,
and I'm inclined to suspect it means that much more happened than people realized.
We shall see.

JoanR · « **Reply #60 on:** June 05, 2011, 10:43:30 AM »

I enjoyed the way this book was written in flashbacks, so well-handled that I didn't find it at all confusing - it just kept my curiosity at a high pitch. Oddly enough, when I finished, it all fell into place in a linear way which makes it hard to comment now since I could mention something which is not in the current chapter.

Since we've started the Wales chapter, I think it's safe to say that Eddie's stammer began with Ma Didds and was probably exacerbated by the mean treatment in the local school. Thank heavens for his rescue by Sir (absolutely loved him!) and the transfer to Sir's little school. This must have been a small boarding school for elementary age children.

About Eddie's father - he had been severely shellshocked in the first World War. Eddie's mother loved him, calmed him -"soothed his wild rages" so he must have been quite dependent emotionally on her and couldn't face the child whom he probably couldn't help but blame for her death. He was administrator in a remote outpost in Malaya, thus Eddie's going to Hong Kong as an adult was not a return to his childhood but something else altogether which we'll find out about later!!!!

I'm twisting myself in knots avoiding the sin of "spoilage"!

bellamarie · « **Reply #61 on:** June 05, 2011, 01:29:00 PM »

PatH~

Quote

Although his father emotionally abandoned him even before birth, O. F. didn't feel it in his first four years. He was in a village where everyone loved him, and one woman, Ada, particularly loved him and watched out for him. Loved, accepted, cared for, able to play happily, it doesn't get much better than that.

I'm not so sure I can agree with this. I don't think anyone can take the place of your parents. Just the way Edward spoke to his father and told him he has not been there for him, led me to believe that all the love and care he received from Ada and others did not make up for what he needed from his father, especially since he had no mother.

This is a complex book to say the least. I must admit I am seeing Betty and Edward's relationship up to this part as loving. And also maybe because I listened to Jane's interview and someone questioned about Edward's inability of affection etc., and Jane came to the defense of Edward and corrected the person who asked the question and said she very much thought Edward had affection and love for Betty.

Okay on to Wales I go.....gotta alot of shopping to do and take in the beautiful much needed warm temps so I will check back later. Lots of great thoughts and comments.

Ciao for now~

straudetwo · « **Reply #62 on:** June 05, 2011, 02:37:44 PM »

PatH, true, we cannot really answer the questions yet, merely speculate and, possibly, withhold premature conclusions.

To backtrack for a moment : Mrs. Feathers went to the clinic by boat, the only conveyance to the Port, accompanied by Ada's (unnamed) mother and her own baby to be wet nurse for the new baby. The poor woman was frightened to be away from her home, and Mrs. Feathers comforted her.
Ada was 12 years old and the eldest daughter of the wet nurse. She had seen her mother off and was at the dock when her mother returned.
The baby's father was not. Ada, not yet a teenager, was put in charge of Edward and he became a part of Ada's family.
He grew up with the brown Malay children and, of course, learned Malay. In the village were "a number of pale-skinned half-caste children from the Raj's peccadilloes" but Edward was the fairest with blue eyes and his mother's curly chestnut hair.

He was 4 1/2 years old when Auntie May returned. She had been in correspondence with Captain Feathers and came back to discuss Edward's future - in England. That was Auntie May's job and, besides, the only reasonable solution for a motherless white child in the Far East. A dinner was arranged at Captain Feathers' home, the child summoned and, holding Ada's hand, waited outside until called in. In Malay, Alistair tells Edward that he is his father (the childdoes nott believe him), that he is to return Home ("why can't I stay here?"), to learn English first ("I can talk here ... I would like to stay here ... I should like to die here... Will Ada come").

The plans are finalized, first a foster home in Wales, then boarding school, and more, prepaid by the father and held in trust. Told by Auntie May that "Your sisters must organize warm clothing for Liverool", Alistair replies, "They wouldn't know how. They're independent spinsters.
Play a lo of golf." The Kotakinakulu chapter is sad but worth rereading.

Long separations between parents and children, or any abandonment, are known to have deleterious effects on the victims, and Edward surely was one.

Steph · « **Reply #63 on:** June 06, 2011, 06:10:19 AM »

A friend.
Edward has a friend and a substitute family. They sound glorious and just what a forlorn little boy needs.
I think as much as he is capable he loved Betty. On the other hand, am not sure she loved him back. Since she seems to have had a lover..I find her puzzling at this point.. It does seem as I am reading along that his friend is gone by the the present time.. He has just received a letter from someone in the family though. That is as far as I have gotten .

JoanP · « **Reply #64 on:** June 06, 2011, 06:45:51 AM »

One of my grandson's loves to color - the more intricate the coloring book page, the better. He seems to like to see the picture come to life, one section at a time. It's fascinating to watch him. He's the only one of the seven who enjoys this.

As I watched him, I thought of Jane Gardam and how she is coloring in her story - little bits at a time - in her own good time. Traude points out that we, the readers, may be reaching "premature" conclusions - but I have to wonder, whose fault is that? We can only react to the bits of color that the author has provided for us.

Good morning, Steph! In these next chapters, we go to Wales..Eddie is "saved", as you point out, he makes a friend...did you notice Pat's "black moods," his mother talks about?

And then we flash forward to his marriage...JoanR - Welcome! I'm starting to get used to the flashbacks in time - there were a few references in these chapters to the banana trees of Eddie's childhood too...did you notice them? Eddie is having flashbacks too!

My overall question is - and has been - has the boy, this man-child, managed to survive after all this "nothingness" - or the other extreme - is he on the verge of a breakdown?

Eager to hear your reactions - do you have any better idea this morning of what went on in Wales - or has your opinion changed regarding Betty and Eddie's loving marriage? Could it have been a happy one for Eddie? (I hope so?)

Babi · « **Reply #65 on:** June 06, 2011, 08:36:19 AM »

I'm with you, JOANR. I wanted to pat Sir on the cheek and smile at him
for being so exactly what Edward needed.

I like your image of the author 'coloring in her story little bits at a
time', JOANP. It does keep me looking forward to the next 'bit'.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #66 on:** June 06, 2011, 09:39:32 AM »

Thanks, JOANR, I missed this: "About Eddie's father - he had been severely shellshocked in the first World War. Eddie's mother loved him, calmed him -"soothed his wild rages" so he must have been quite dependent emotionally on her and couldn't face the child whom he probably couldn't help but blame for her death"

Harry's boy is dead. Harry, Betty's lover? He's married to Elsie? A mystery beginning and poor Betty is so depressed going to London. "Filth and I are going to live forever. Pointlessly. Keeping the old flag flying for a country I no longer recognise or love..."

Must go, have an appointment.

straudetwo · « **Reply #67 on:** June 06, 2011, 06:41:00 PM »

In this first full week of the discussion, new questions emerge, but we see a confirmation of something we had suspected : that Veneering's move to the Donheads was no coincidence, that they knew each other and he had phone number.

The narrative begins in O.F.'s old age and so we know that he was of sound mind. Jane Gardam tells his story (and it is definitely HIS story) indifferent stages, and from different vantage points. We have met some of the principal characters. From auntie May's perspective we learned about his first years.

His life in England begins in Wales, but we see only the end of that period and the beginning of the boarding school years. We long to know what the 'tragedy' in Wales was, what led to it, and about the relationship Edward had with his cousins, Babs (who can sing) and blonde angelic Claire. Edward likes Sir who has an intuitive grasp of the new student's emotional needs. (Besides, he'd probably read his history.) Sir's "outfit" is precisely what Edward needs, and Sir's pairing' him with Pat Ingoldsby is inspired. Edward has never known that kind of family setting before.For a short while that setting includes Isobel, Pat's cousin and Mrs. Ongoldsby's goddaughter, He' 14 when he meets her.

That makes me wonder how old Edward was when he entered Sir's outfit ?
We know he'd spent 6 months (was it?) in the Port to learn English.
But how old was he when Auntie May took him t England ?
Wasn't the foster home period 3 years ?
I have to check that.
(I believe we also wanted to determine how old Edward and Betty were when they returned from Hong Kong, and how long they lived there together before Betty died.).

Regarding an earlier question, When Betty died, Edward lost the support which anchored him more than anything else. It would have been out of character for him to show his grief. And there is no question that he mourned her. But her loss may also have been the reason why he began to flip open the tight shuttered a good portion of his life.

JoanP · « **Reply #68 on:** June 06, 2011, 06:42:36 PM »

Sir seems to be just what Eddie needed, coming from the Didds' - didn't he, Babi?
He's taking him to his school - the same one Eddie's father attended. How old does "Sir" seem to you? Is he older than Eddie's father - and Pat Ingoldby's?

I was surprised to read that Pat is depressed too - at least he suffers from black moods. I hadn't noticed until Pat's mother brought it up. I don't think Eddie noticed either, did he?

Wasn't Betty something else, Ella? - about the London trip. She really didn't want to go - thinks it's a waste of time and money to have a London solicitor make the changes in their wills. But there's no arguing with Filth. I'm curious about those Letters of Wishes too. Don't you wonder what they are about?

Later on the train, when Betty decided she wanted better seats, she didn't argue with Filth - she just took them when offered. Way to go, Betty!

JoanP · « **Reply #69 on:** June 06, 2011, 06:44:50 PM »

Oops - we were posting at the same time, Traude. On my way to dinner -

straudetwo · « **Reply #70 on:** June 06, 2011, 06:45:34 PM »

JoanP, we posted wwithin a minute of each other ! Ha !!

PatH · « **Reply #71 on:** June 06, 2011, 10:38:20 PM »

I do think Eddie was somewhat aware of Pat's black moods. When Mrs. Ingoldsby said "He has these wretched black moods....Does it happen at school?" Eddie's answer was "Yes. Sometimes. It does, actually." It sounds like Eddie has noticed, but not sorted it out well.

PatH · « **Reply #72 on:** June 06, 2011, 11:12:43 PM »

The picture is filling in, but we're getting plenty of new questions too.

We learn that Betty has had some kind of romantic relationship with Terry Veneering, and they were still somewhat emotionally connected up to the end.

We get another glimpse of Feathers senior, half mad and still bewildering.

We get the huge mystery of whatever awful thing happened in Wales. It must have been major indeed, since Eddie's father actually shows up in England because of it, and it seems to have involved a death.

And we seem to have a lot of emotionally wounded people, and we're just starting to figure out what they're about.

Steph · « **Reply #73 on:** June 07, 2011, 06:11:39 AM »

oh me, I did miss Veneerings first name. He is the Terry. I can understand Edwards dislike then, But now as I read on, there seems to be more to it than that.
The war is starting and Edward is having a terrible time coping with what his father wants, what he wants and the loss of Pats companionship.. He has had such a complicated early life. He is learning more about his father now..His Aunts are truly horrid women.

Babi · « **Reply #74 on:** June 07, 2011, 09:11:23 AM »

I am startled to find that Betty, in her own thoughts, thinks of her husband by the name of ‘Filth’. So, what is this? Affection or disdain?

A first class train in England had leaking water closets and ripped up seats?!! When was this? I find this hard to believe. I hope someone can explain it.

JoanP · « **Reply #75 on:** June 07, 2011, 09:53:54 AM »

PatH - you're right, we're getting answers,sort of - but so many more questions come up. Filth's life reads like a multi-layered mystery story, doesn't it? He is either keeping secrets - or he has repressed them. Shall we make a list of the mysteries? It will be interesting to see if Jane Gardam answers them all - or leaves them for another day.

Babi brings up the question of Betty's feelings for her husband. She doesn't seem to look forward to living out their lives in Dorset together, does she? And then there's the question of how Filth feels about his wife.

I've been caught up in these Letter of Wishes the two intended to make in London. It would seem that they have a will - but wish to add something to it? I went back and reread about that day - Betty described it as an "abortive attempt to give what they had by dying."

What can this mean? Filth says all of their friends are dead. There are no children. This topic keeps coming up - in their thoughts, and yet they don't seem to speak to one another about how they feel about the fact that there are no children. At this time, Betty is said to be "thirty years beyond her child-bearing years..."

Were you impressed by what Filth answered when asked by Betty if he had so many wishes?
"Peace at the end" - and that you will never leave me."

Babi - I'm thinking of your question about the train that day the two went to London to update their wills - remembering how Betty was repulsed by "the slovenly riff-raff, the corpses in the doorways, the bundles with rags and bottles...the beggars again in the streets of London." When was London in such a mess?

rosemarykaye · « **Reply #76 on:** June 07, 2011, 10:05:50 AM »

JoanP - the answer is unfortunately NOW. Edinburgh is awash with beggars, Big Issue sellers, druggies and general degenerates, and the last time I went to London I was amazed at how many more of these people there were than I remembered. If you walk across Waterloo Bridge from Charing Cross, you will be accosted by beggars at both ends. If you walk along any main street, you will be asked for money (largely - but not only - ) by Eastern European immigrants. You can recognise the druggies, both here and in London, by the way they tend to walk about in groups, usually shouting a lot, arguing with one another, moving very jerkily, and generally being a bit scary. There are also a lot of people sleeping rough in the doorways of all of our major cities.

I am not sure why all this has increased so much. I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that most of the people who have been allowed into the UK by their countries' membership of the EU have come here primarily to beg. This does not of course apply to all countries - the Polish people who have come here work very hard and are generally pillars of the community. Also, many of the "local" people on the streets are there as a result of our government's policy of "care in the community" - ie closing psychiatric hospitals and homes to save money. There is no care in the community, there are no funds made available to pay for it, and these sad, disturbed, people are roaming the streets.

I think this is what Jane Gardam is talking about.

Rosemary (who still hasn't got the book!)

JoanP · « **Reply #77 on:** June 07, 2011, 10:15:58 AM »

Rosemary - thank you for that - I think! My youngest son is living in London - we will be visiting in September. What I remember when we last visited was the number of women begging. In the Underground as we changed trains in the dark, noisy, drafty passage ways, there would be women with babies, sitting there, begging. Heartbreaking.

Whenever this started, we probably won't be told - but it made an impression on Betty the day they went to London. Probably she did not remember this about London. It makes an impression on her coming from Hong Kong. (Can't wait until you get this book)

Steph - whatever there is between Betty and Veneering is indeed another mystery. Veneering's boy's death seems to hit Betty hard. That same day, she takes the pearls, Veneering's gift - her "guilty" pearls she calls them - "yesterday's pearls, " she calls them. She buries the pearls - and Veneering's boy has just died. What is this boy to Betty that she takes his death so hard?

You mention the "horrid" aunts, Steph. They certainly have no concern for this boy...no feelings. We learn somewhere in these chapters that they were Raj Orphans. And oh, Pat's mother was also a Raj Orphan. Are we to understand that this lack of feeling is due to their lack of parenting when very young? "Emotionally wounded people" as PatH describes them. Pat Ingoldby's dark moods - may be the result of the same experience. I thought it was significant that his mother even noticed her son's unhappiness. Maybe Eddie didn't make much of his black moods because so many of the other boys at the school were subject to the same thing - Raj Orphans themselves? This school was so much of an improvement from the school in Wales, that Eddie was much happier himself - he wasn't aware of Pat's moods.

Do you think that if Old Firth can go back in time and confront what happened in Wales, he will be at peace with the man he has become? How important is it that he face that period in time?
I'm thinking of Jonathan's comment in the Prediscussion - "This book is written in what I think of as the humpty-dumpty narrative style. It's an attempt at a tour de force in putting a smashed life back together again." I love the idea...that it's never too late. What do you think?

PatH · « **Reply #78 on:** June 07, 2011, 11:35:59 AM »

When does the book take place? Eddie is not quite 18 during the Battle of Britain in 1940, and is now nearing 80, two years after Betty's death. So we're about 10 years ago. (The book is copyrighted 2004.)

Eddie's father's attempt to keep him safe by making him come back to Malaya is pretty ironic, since one of the first things the Japanese did on entering WWII was to invade Malaya and run the British out. Out of the frying pan into the fire. I don't know if Eddie actually went, but assume not.

JoanP, I like the concept of "Humpty Dumpty Narrative".

JoanP · « **Reply #79 on:** June 07, 2011, 12:17:29 PM »

Good, that makes three for the reverse Humpty Dumpty narrative idea~

That IS ironic, PatH! For Eddie's sake, I hope Father was moved by his letter - and not swayed by the ps at the end - I don't know what happened yet either. I suppose that if Eddie did go home, would have a different story, wouldn't we?
Traude brings up the question of how old Edward and Betty were when they returned from Hong Kong, and how long they lived there together before Betty died.
PatH figures that "Eddie is not quite 18 during the Battle of Britain in 1940" - if they came to Dorset at the End of the Empire in Hong Kong - so that would be around 1997-99...that would make him near 60 when they returned? PatH, please do the math! Maybe they came back a few years later than that? Do you remember?

The way the author flips back and then forth in time makes this difficult to say with certainty. We have to piece together the little details to figure how much time elapses. I'd really like to know how long they were together at the Donheads before she died.

When did they go to London to update their wills? That was same period that we learn of Terry Veneering's son's death...Betty planted the pearls - with the tulip bulbs. It was then that she mused that she was "30 years beyond child-bearing years." Is that a clue?

The day they go to London, Filth thinks that Betty is a remarkable woman for over 70 - she has good legs, it seems.
She thinks that Filth looks "ancient, but still handsome." Is he older than Betty, then - or does he just look older?

Didn't she die shortly after they came back from London?
The day after the funeral- "he opened a cake-tin and cut himself a slice of Betty's birthday cake and ate it rather guiltily because it wasn't yet stale."
Her birthday cake! I don't know why this line hit me like it did - can you imagine having just celebrated a spouse's birthday - and eating her birthday cake -following her funeral?

So - how many years did Filth live without Betty - with Veneering next door to him? How soon after Betty died did Veneering move in? If he came to be near Betty, he would have changed his mind, don't you think? Why would he move next door to Filth? Another BIG MYSTERY for our list!

News:

Author Topic: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online (Read 126635 times)