Author Topic: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online  (Read 126642 times)

JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #440 on: July 08, 2011, 09:33:47 PM »


The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.


June Bookclub Online  Everyone is welcome!

Old Filth
 by Jane Gardam
"The opening pages of the book find Filth (Sir Edward Feathers), a retired but still unassailable old barrister whose reputation has grown to such mythic proportions that it obstructs the hard truths of a man so damaged by his past that he has found himself forever unable to love.
It's only as Filth toddles gracefully into old age that he can begin to rediscover the parts of himself that he has locked away and come to terms with the dark secrets that made him the man he became."   (Reviewed by Maggie O'Farrell)

The novelist,  Jane Gardam was born  in Coatham, North Yorkshire on July  11. 1928. Her title character's late-in-life questions about whether his life has had meaning are especially moving—and universal, given this author's own experience and age.
“Both witty and poignant, this work is more than a character study; through her protagonist, Gardam offers a view of the last days of empire as seen from post-9/11 Britain.  Borrowing from biography and history, Gardam has written a literary masterpiece that retraces much of of the 20th century's torrid and momentous history.”
  Library Journal  
click on map twice to enlarge

Discussion Schedule for the coming week:


- June 26 - 30   The Donheads; Chambers; Last Rites;  The Revelation; The Inner Temple Garden  p 220-290


Some Topics for Consideration
June 26 - 30


1.  What does the easy friendship between Filth and Terry Veneering reveal about what had happened in the past?

2. Writing his memoirs did not come easy to Filth.   Were you disappointed they weren't included in this story?  What do you think he included?

3.  Why does  Loss's defection seem to Eddie a metaphor for his life?  Does he bear him any ill feelings?  Why would he take his address book? Why might he have demanded Eddie's father's watch?   Do we know what became of his father?

4.  At the end of the voyage, how  was Eddie's  condition diagnosed?  Can you see a reason why his diagnosis might affect his future? 

5.  How did he get assigned to the Queen's guard?  Why would Queen Mary take such an interest in Edward? Was this believable?

6. What did his brief interlude with Isobel reveal to each of them?

7. What does Filth's heart attack make him realize about his life? Is his memory fading?

8.  What did Claire's letter reveal about the horror in Wales?  Had you figured out what it was?    Were you surprised at what Filth revealed in his confession?

9. Is Filth at peace with himself at the end?  Were you satisfied or unsatisfied  with the ending?

10.  What do you think Jane Gardam accomplished with this  novel?
 


Related Links:
  UK Legal System  (rosemarykaye);
  The British Empire;
  BBC interview with Jane Gardam on Old Filth, 2006;
  A Brief Biography of Rudyard Kipling;
  Kipling's "Baa Baa Black Sheep";


Discussion Leaders:  Traude  & Joan P






JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #441 on: July 08, 2011, 10:29:55 PM »
It's good to know that you are still with us as we wait for Jane Gardam's response  during this extended week of the discussion.  I'm heartened that we will hear from her shortly - due to her recent communication.
I'm down in NC caring for four very young grandchildren as their parents are off celebrating their 10th wedding anniversary in Montreal.  Though things are quite hectic here, never a quiet moment - or a dull one - I manage to make a quick check of my emails to see if there is  word from her.

PATh - These books do get complex, the more you analyze them, don't they?  I think that analyzing leads to  "creative reading" too. I'm thinking of Bella's remark - about accepting JG's explanation of how Veneering came to live next door to Filth - coincidence.

When JG wrote that she was working on our questions, I tagged that question on to my response - the here's what she said:
" I wrote it as a co-incidence, but I am not so sure that there is such a thing.

Something  mysterious was certainly at work, but I hadn't thought of Ross. Certainly he had been seen hanging about. I believe you are all ahead of me. I like the notion.Ross, as you all seem to have recognised, is a creature not entirely like other people. He is meant to be some sort of mischievous ,  spirit, with many secrets. I have tried to suggest others - like the man in the garden and the two timeless children.
But I don't want to overemphasise this or the novel will become fey. The book is primarily about the importance of law and order." Be ye never so high, the Law is above you".  Yet it is also about the irrationality of human love."

Can you imagine what it must be like for an author to feel the involvement of her readers in her tale? - I smiled when she said -"I believe you are all ahead of me."

I'm still looking forward to her responses to your questions.  Will be in tomorrow - when the little 'uns are all tucked in bed!

straudetwo

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #442 on: July 09, 2011, 12:18:25 AM »
PatH,  yes, indeed. And Veneering's taking a cruise to Malta, where Betty and OF had been, and meeting there  apparently the same group of British expat, still living it up there, including the one to whom OFhad offered a job years earlier when he and Betty were there.  A nostalgic pilgrimage for Veneering ? That is rather touching, isn't it ?

JoanP, these books may be easy to read but they turn out to be quite demanding. We are presented with circumstances without direct antecedents,  then left to draw our own conclusions  -- which may not be what JG intended at all!  
The characters are brilliantly portrayed, and all of us had strong reactions to them, which proves the point.  

We may not like the characters or (even less) the things they do.  But they are the protagonists in a story, not real people. I, for one, have never felt the need to like a character, to identify with him/her  in any way, or to approve of behavior or condemn it.

 JGhas written several books about the relationships between men and women,  about jealousy between women, and the compromises necessary in most marriages.  In life, she seems to say, is ever black or white. They are many grey areas.  Besides, how much did we know about the Empire, its glory and its downfall, India, the jewel in the crown, life and opportunities in the colonies ?  The Kipling reference was useful to explain the Raj orphans,  but I'm afraid the story of OF, Betty,  Veneering and the fawning over-protective Loss, for whom the second book is named, has to be taken as is - until we hear from JG.

True, we meet Betty  briefly in OF, long after they returned from H.K., too brief to form an opinion of her. It is obvious that JG wanted to describe OF's youth, mid-life and old age.  There is more abut Betty in the second volume, and  we see her interaction with the other people in her life.  She resigned herself to the fact that hers would be a marriage without passion. OF later said later "Betty was undemanding".  Doesn't that say a lot ?

Something tells me that JG was gently disposed toward Betty. She made Betty come into her own.
Often alone when the Judge was occupied and preoccupied with one of his cases on land reclamation (Loss had steeredOF to this ,endlessly lucrative field), Betty volunteered for children's causes and was officially recognized for her work.  In retirement she "took over the church", as OF put it. Not quite, of course. She had a great organsational talent and became an indispensable member of the Altar Guild. Flowers on the main altar and chapel altars are  important in Anglican churches, and so they are in the Episcopal Church (which is member of the Anglican Union). In her capable hands everything bloomed and flourished.

There can be no question that she suffered in silence all he life for loving and losing a man who wasn't hers, and for never having children. Even so, her life was productive and I think JG forgave her.  There are other things in the second book that I am anxious to reread, e.g. the letters she wrote from her honeymoon, and the friendship with the people in London and also Dulcie and her actor husband.

There's a relatively small thing in OF, a sort of political observation by Eddie in conversation with Loss on the boat to Singapore. He referred to Churchill as a buffoon and, with some asperity, to his "siren suit".  (I had to look that up). There is no follow-up. Hmmmm

Steph

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #443 on: July 09, 2011, 08:18:37 AM »
Oh my, I did not notice that for sure.. Circles upon circles in these books indeed.
Stephanie and assorted corgi


straudetwo

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #445 on: July 09, 2011, 11:12:32 AM »
PatH,   had trouble opening your link or links. Are they akl the same ?

Since I had no idea, I had to look it up and this is what I found

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/nov/10/artsandhumanities.politics

The great man also had a stammer - something OF and JG knew :)

bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #446 on: July 09, 2011, 11:29:43 AM »
JoanP, Thank you so much for sharing the JG answer.  I do LOVE how she sees us a bit ahead of her.  lolol  I do believe we have gotten similar responses from other authors who have been posed with our questions and insights into their books. 

Quote
Something  mysterious was certainly at work, but I hadn't thought of Ross. Certainly he had been seen hanging about. I believe you are all ahead of me. I like the notion.Ross, as you all seem to have recognised, is a creature not entirely like other people. He is meant to be some sort of mischievous ,  spirit, with many secrets.

This especially made me giggle, since I kept seeing Loss/Ross as a leprechaun, showing up here and there and everywhere. 

Quote
Yet it is also about the irrationality of human love."

She did a great job in showing how true this statement is.  I am so anxious to hear more from her, I like her more and more as I get her insights as to her characters and thoughts of the books.

straude, OF later said later "Betty was undemanding".  Doesn't that say a lot ?

For me the only demand she made was to give her a seperate bank account so she could spend as she wished, and spend she did, on only the finest of things.  She and Edward had the perfect marriage for two people who did not seem to need each other much in their lives, other than to be together for dinner parties.  Neither seemed undemanding and maybe that is the "irrationality of human love" JG speaks of.   

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #447 on: July 09, 2011, 02:34:55 PM »
'She and Edward had the perfect marriage....'

Bella, I'm happy to hear you say that. I agree; but I also feel that they did need each other. But more than anything I think that marriage is the major theme of the book. It comes up in countless ways. One casual remark is a good instance. On the final flight OF is flying first class with a hardworking solicitor travelling without his wife. I always took mine with me, says OF. What a reply from the younger man: my wife would not think herself as being mine!

And that's why it is such a surprise to hear the author say that 'the book is primarily about the importance of law and order. I've been reading it as an account of an old man's last years and his crossing of the final bar, an act in which 'memory was now unnecessary and all desire fulfilled.'

Thanks, Pat, for that beautiful quote from the book. Unlawful and disorderly as it is, Old Filth all takes place in present time. Does it not?

PatH

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #448 on: July 09, 2011, 04:26:05 PM »

straudetwo

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #449 on: July 09, 2011, 05:09:00 PM »
Thanks, PatH. I did get that.  But what is shown is a  jumpsuit, and not exactly what is described in the Guardian link.  But this is just one small portion of world history abd we may have to acceot variations, as long as they don't detract from History.

Jonathan, "law and oeder" as the theme of thee two books ?  Not for me.
I have stated my position seveedal times and see no need to repeat.

JoanP,  it is a major achievement to get JG to join us through you as an intermediary. More power to you !F
I thought her response in your #441 quite typical - a bit cryptic, par for the course.  From JG's answer I gather that the question was about  Loss.  But I have o idea how the question was framed. The answer is not (really) illuminating, and it certainly did not atify me.

salan

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #450 on: July 09, 2011, 05:50:40 PM »
Okay, I've finished MITWH and I must say that I am slightly confused.  Maybe my poor brain is over-taxed; but.....Where does it imply that Albert is the man in the wooden hat?  I am sad to say that was a little too subtle for me.  I have Wooden Hat on my Kindle, so will try to re-read parts of it.  Old Filth was a library book; so I no longer have it.  I was certain that Loss was dead.  Where does it refer to his death in OF?  If any of you have the book, please tell us exactly what it said that gave me that impression.

I enjoyed both books and am glad I read them.  It has been an interesting and enlightening discussion.  Thank you, Leaders!
Sally

PatH

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #451 on: July 09, 2011, 07:22:54 PM »
Sally, you're quite right, in OF Loss is described as having been on one of the planes that crashed on 9/11.  But he's alive after that in TMITWH.  You have your choice of explanations.  Gardam's notions of what she wanted changed between books and she ignored the discrepancy (there are others).  Or, Loss is kind of a shady character, much involved in behind-the-scenes international politics, and has managed his apparent death for his own convenience.  He doesn't stay for the wake because he has to fly to Kabul, suggestive of his international scheming.

bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #452 on: July 09, 2011, 09:09:39 PM »
Jonathon, I agree they did need each other,  just not as much together in each other's lives, as most married couples would.  When Edward stated he "always took mine with me." I am confused, unless he meant in his mind, because Betty did not always go with him.  She stayed in London while he traveled to Singapore from time to time.  I never saw the law and order, guess I was too busy seeing the "irrationality of human love."   ::)

Sally and PatH, I noticed the discrepancy early on and was confused when one of you posted Loss did not attend Edwards wake because he was dead, (died in the 911 plane.)  I had been reading the companion book and thought indeed he did die in Old Filth, yet here he is alive and well at Edwards service.  I also asked the same question about where in the companion book did it actually say Loss was the man in the wooden hat?  I assumed it was Loss because he wore his hat and kept his cards and Edward's watch hidden in it.  Our little leprechaun!!!   lolol

When they were in the museum, I forget but wasn't there a statue of a man in a wooden hat there?  Egads...I will have to go back and read that again.

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Steph

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #453 on: July 10, 2011, 07:51:23 AM »
It never says that Loss is the man, but the description of his hat and the one in the museum were obviously similar.. So we assume it is.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

salan

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #454 on: July 10, 2011, 09:01:29 AM »
Okay, but what exactly is the significance of the man in the wooden hat?  Why was the book named this?  This book seemed to be more about Betty.  It had little to do with the man in the wooden hat; so why the title.  Altho, I do admit that I like the title.
Sally

bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #455 on: July 10, 2011, 10:15:39 AM »
Sally, I agree, the book revealed how Loss helped Edward throughout his life, but the companion book was about Betty and her perspective, so I have no idea why the title.  Its odd the reader has to "assume" Loss is indeed TMITWH, considering the title generally refers to the main theme/character in the book.  

Loss did not have a wooden hat, so why "wooden hat?"

Other unanswered questions I have are:  Why did Loss keep the watch and lie to Edward when he asked about it?  Was there any significance in the watch other than it was Edward's father's?  Why did Loss feel the need to keep it?  If he was a good friend to Edward, why wouldn't he give it back to him?    

Puzzling like many things in both books, maybe JG will help us out with some of the answers she will provide to our questions.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #456 on: July 10, 2011, 10:42:52 AM »
Good morning!

Still away from home - away from my own computer.  No response yet from Jane G - appreciate that you are all still checking in.  I think it will be worth your time.
"Did anyone notice that on his final, fatal, cruise, Veneering broke his ankle in the same cleft that frightened Betty on her honeymoon?" PatH  I wonder if Jane G would regard this as a coincidence too. ;)  Too bad I can't add another question to her - I fear I've overwhelmed her already and don't want to risk any further delay in her response.

It might be a good idea to check back to the scene where Betty and Veneering meet by chance in the exhibition hall in Amsterdam  That's where they both discuss the bust of the man wearing a wooden hat.  Remember the scene?  - it's when Veneering asks Betty to come away with him...
I agree, Steph, the man in the wooden hat seems to be Loss.... BUT the author is making us work to see the connection between Loss and that carved wooden bust, Sally.
Jane G says that such a carving does exist - that there is a whole big story about it.  I'm looking forward to hearing that.

I don't think that Loss ever lied to  Filth about that watch, Bella. Will need to go back to the exact words in the book.  Although I am not certain why he didn't return it to him - waited until Filth's funeral to give it up.  Did any one have any ideas on that?


rosemarykaye

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #457 on: July 10, 2011, 01:45:46 PM »
I am sure that you will all have reached this point way before me, but I have just googled "albatross" and Wikepedia says an albatross can be;

"an omen of good or bad luck, as well as a metaphor for a (psychological) burden to be carried (as penance)"

So is Albert Ross/loss just that - someone who has brought OF good luck in his commercial cases, but who also serves to represent the burden OF carries around all through the years, always thinking he had killed Ma Didds, and always mourning his Malaysian childhood (until he finally comes home - whereupon Albert Ross's work is done)?  Does he keep the watch - the symbol of OF's father - as a symbol of OF's alienation from that father, and the guilt he feels about him?  Is he really both Of and Betty's "guilty consciences" - he knows what she did in the tree house, just as he knows what OF cried out in his fever?

I haven't thought this through properly, it's just an idea.

Rosemary

bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #458 on: July 10, 2011, 02:40:54 PM »
rosemarykaye, How very interesting, because I had kicked the realness of Loss around a bit myself, I think that is why I see him as a leprechaun.  Not necessarily real life.  Hmmmm...what did JG say about Loss/Ross,   
Quote
He is meant to be some sort of mischievous ,  spirit, with many secrets. I have tried to suggest others - like the man in the garden and the two timeless children.  But I don't want to overemphasise this or the novel will become fey.

Food for thought.

JoanP, When Edward asked Loss about his watch, Loss told him something about it getting stolen.  Go back and read it, I don't have the book anymore.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #459 on: July 10, 2011, 04:36:43 PM »
Rosemary, I'd like to pursue the idea of  Loss/Ross and guilt in the novel.  - yours is an interesting approach.  He most definitely has a role - this may be it.

At the very end of Chapter 28, Betty and Veneering met in the museum.   They are standing in front of the bust of a man in a wooden hat.  Veneering tells Betty:

"This bugger in the hat, he's like that dwarf who, history relates, nicked Filth's watch when they were kids and sold it.""
 Betty turns down Veneering's plea to go away with him following this discussion.  Is it her guilt that comes back to her at that moment - or her promise to Loss never to leave Filth?

About the watch. Bella, I find no proof that Ross/Loss stole that watch - even if it is "as history relates."  Does anyone  still believe he stole it?  I need  more proof than gossip that Loss is a thief.  Also, I'd like to see where Loss tells Filth that someone stole the watch from him.  I don't remember that.  Which of course, means nothing - there are lots of things I don't remember...

Listen to the omnicient narrator, the author, one might presume, as she describes Loss in Chapter 2:
"Like a king or a prince, he wore no watch.  Eddie Feathers had, in wartime, as bombs were falling about them on a quay-side in Ceylon and Ross had decided to make a run for it, presented Ross with a watch, his most precious possession.  It had been Eddie's father's.  The watch of course, had long disappeared, bartered probably for food, but it was not forgotten and never replaced."

We know now it was not bartered for food - and Loss never replaced it.  Never even wore a watch.

straudetwo

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #460 on: July 10, 2011, 04:50:17 PM »
Going out on a limb.  

Ross/Loss may have been just "mmischievous" in JG's words, but that can hardly be all. Wih a stretch it applies to the boy on the boat to Singapore.
But the man who, coldly, imperiously, threatens to "destroy" both Betty and Isobel is miles removed  from mischievous, and,  inmy opinion,  shows that the an is possessed - with OF. (I hinted at this before. but.)

His sponsorship of OF was wonderfully reassuring to the ever optimistic(American reader,   but we neeed to ask what WAS in it for Ross himself ?
Why  did he keep the watch ? Why did he demand it in the first place ? To have some kind of "hold" over the (blind-sighted) Eddie ?
All right. Eddie was blind-sighted, and Loss did have a hold over him,  even though OF didn't recognize it.Ross.

Bellamarie says Loss was "protective" of OF.  But protective of what from from ??
How can we be coddled in into believing this was just benevolence for old times' sake ? How long were those old times ?Four years ? Five years?  Surely the shrewd dwarf recognized how O.F.'s cleverness could enrich himself - even though he seemed quite flush already.    What do we know about Ross, his life and any relationhships ? How his physical deformation st him sort of apart ?

The answer is nothing.. It remains to be seen how helpful JG will be.  T

bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #461 on: July 10, 2011, 05:10:19 PM »
JoanP,  
Quote
About the watch. Bella, I find no proof that Ross/Loss stole that watch - even if it is "as history relates."  Does anyone believe he stole it?  I need  more proof than gossip that Loss is a thief.

You have misunderstood my post, I am not calling Loss a theif.  I said I thought Loss had said the watch had gotten stolen from HIM.  But the mention of the watch is in the rest of your post. The watch of course, had long disappeared, bartered probably for food, but it was not forgotten and never replaced."

But the watch has always been in Loss's hat, so why did he keep it from Edward all those years?
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

straudetwo

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #462 on: July 10, 2011, 05:45:12 PM »
Exactly.  The wtch was always in Loss's possession. And the question is why.

What was OF to Loss ?

Why did Loss "o]pack up" things and go off to another jaunt, and why did he leave the hat, h is trademark, behind with the
treasures" inside - the watch and the cards ?  What was left of HIS life  ?



bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #463 on: July 10, 2011, 05:58:13 PM »
Straude,  One more unanswered question that we can all assume, or perceive, which ever conclusion we care to feel comfortable with.  Did he leave the hat, cards and watch behind because he felt his life was over because OF is gone?  If so, where does that leave us in understanding the purpose of Loss in the books.  Mama Mia, I get more confused than ever before.  lol
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanR

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #464 on: July 10, 2011, 08:46:21 PM »
Not sure why Ross was so attached to Eddy - unless, and this enters the realm of myth, ------

The watch was a talisman.  It had great significance to Eddy so when Eddy gave it to Ross/ Loss it became a bond.
Loss, being bonded to Eddy, saved his life by contacting those who could meet the boat as it returned to England with the seriously ill Eddy aboard.
When Eddy was stuck as a "legal paper pusher" in London, Loss descended from a limo just as a "deus ex machina" in a Greek play and hustled our Eddy off to Hong Kong where his career took off .
One gets the feeling that Ross/Loss is always there somewhere in the background until Eddy's death when the watch is returned, the bond being broken.

Does this make any sense or is it just raving?

PatH

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #465 on: July 10, 2011, 09:51:20 PM »
JoanR, that totally makes sense, and almost exactly parallels what I was thinking, except I hadn't yet put it in words so well.  I think that also, Ross knew more about Eddie than anyone else.  Ross says that while he was delirious Eddy kept talking about his sexual experience, but I'm guessing that Eddie said a lot of other stuff too, maybe including the awful incident.  Ross really knew Eddie in a way no one else did, and probably sympathized with it.  The giving of the watch, Eddie's only important possession, cements the bond.  "Talisman" is absolutely the right way to look at the watch.  I sort of felt that, but hadn't quite worked it out until your post.

straudetwo

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #466 on: July 10, 2011, 10:26:06 PM »
JoanR,
 Exactly !   deus ex machina, definitely fitting. (And the gossiping benchers in the Inner Temple as Greek chorus !!)
Reminiscent also of a puppeteer balancing on his fingers the multiple strings that are people's lives, designing and controlling their every move.  Mystical.
But even if we believe Loss was god-like  why is he so sycophantic, so servile, schlepping the heavy leather suitcases through the airport on his short legs while towering Feathers strides along, carrying only his walking stick  and the newspaper ? ( As I type this, I'm reminded of the bearing of General Charles de Gaulle ... Does anyone remember him ?)

TTalisman,  yes, an article - an amulet for instance -  or any personal token that was believed to confer magical powers and, always worn  on one's person,  to guarantee protection.  
But Loss already had quasi magical powers, didn't he ? Why would he need the watch as a talisman ?

Yes, the watch was Eddie's most precious possession. By taking and keeping it, Loss had a permanent  emotional connection with Eddie and also a permanent hold over Eddie. That I can well believe.

When Eddie's life ended, so did Loss's. Why else would he give away the hat with the playing cards and the watch inside ?
A gallant exit into the sunset ? So it seems.




straudetwo

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #467 on: July 10, 2011, 10:56:29 PM »
JoanP,

No, Loss did not stealthe watch. He demanded it. It's on pg. 219 in O.F.

On leaving the ship in Singapore, Loss says 
"Oh, could you give me your watch?  For emergencies?"

"It's my father's", said Eddie.
"I may need it",  answers Loss.  The masked face. The humourless, cunning dwarf's eyes.

And as if under a spell, Eddie says, "Yes, of course", takes off the watch and puts it in Loss's outstretched hand.

The other reference is on pg. 263, in the Chambers chapter. At the reunion in London Eddie asks "By the way, what happened to my watch ?"

Loss : "Ah, that had to be sacrificed in the avuncular search" and adds - quickly changing the subject, "But you have aged, Fevvers ..."


bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #468 on: July 10, 2011, 11:49:40 PM »
Something is nagging at me and I just can't put my finger on it.   I don't think it was a coincidence Loss is on the boat with Edward.  I keep sensing he was not real.  He appears when Edward is at his lowest point in life, faces fear, extremely sick, and where he is making life altering decisions.  He reminds me of my kids imaginary friend growing up and then is gone once they have grown up and no longer needs that imaginary friend.  Possibly, Edward needed Loss his entire life because of his insecurities with the loss of his mother and neglectfulness of his father......omg it just hit me typing this....LOSS of his mother...could Ross/Loss be Edward's mother's spirit watching over him, guiding him, protecting him, comforting him, and haunting Isobel and Betty if they hurt him?  That would make sense as to Loss saying he could break them at any time. I am like a Lioness when it comes to my kids in protecting them even now that they are parents themselves.  Mama Mia!  lol  

Loss gives up his hat, cards and watch once Edward is dead, Edward NO longer needs Loss/his mother to watch over him, he is now with her in death.  

Thank YOU straude, I knew there was a place Edward asked Loss about the watch and I just couldn't find it.  So he did lie to Edward about the watch, which is what I posted earlier, which led to my question, if he was such a good friend to Edward why did he lie and keep the watch all those years?  Edward had the watch all this time!

JG gave us her explanation:

Quote
He is meant to be some sort of mischievous , spirit, with many secrets. I have tried to suggest others - like the man in the garden and the two timeless children. But I don't want to overemphasise this or the novel will become fey."
I googled "fey" and at www.thefreedictionary.com/fey  a definition:

elfin-supernatural-not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws; not physical or material; supernatural forces and occurrences and beings.

Another definition I found:  Fey-adj.  Supernatural; unreal; enchanted elves, fairies and other fey creatures.

Quote
"Ah, that had to be sacrificed in the avuncular search"

I googled a·vun·cu·lar (-vngky-lr) adj.
1. Of or having to do with an uncle.
2. Regarded as characteristic of an uncle, especially in benevolence or tolerance.
[From Latin avunculus, maternal uncle; see awo- in Indo-European roots.]


Who was the "maternal uncle" referred to in that statement?  Ross, the male spirit of Edward's mother!  I'm satisfied Loss could be Edward's mother's spirit.

I think like many other things in these two books, its what the reader wants to perceive, with the explanation the author provided.  JG did say we are way ahead of her!  LOL

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

salan

  • Posts: 1093
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #469 on: July 11, 2011, 03:50:35 AM »
We have OF, which focuses on Edward--hence the name Old Filth.  Now we have The Man in the Wooden Hat, which focuses on Betty (which makes me question the title).  After reading these two books, I have many unanswered questions.  I would like to see JG write a book that focuses on Ross/Loss, wouldn't you??
Sally

Steph

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #470 on: July 11, 2011, 08:24:12 AM »
JoanR.. I agree with you. At the end, Edward was gone and Ross no longer wanted or needed the watch..I think that the dwarf met Edward at atime where both of them needed a friend. Edward according to the book, was tall,dark, handsome, bright,admired by all.. Even though he had secrets. Noone ever called Ross anything, but dwarf,, meanspirited, uglyl. Edward was his alter ego..
Stephanie and assorted corgi

straudetwo

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #471 on: July 11, 2011, 11:04:38 AM »
Steph,    alter ego !  Yes indeed !  Another brilliant possibility JG has handed us.
And she clearly leaves the work of making sense of it to us.

There's room for a lot of speculation, and why not ?  In life there are  few absolute certainties, and many imponderables to face along the way  - that's where  a strong faith comes in.

JG's first answer to JoanP was  not really as "clear-cut" as we had hoped.  
Now we have no choice but to wait and see if JG is willing to entertain our other questions.

Back later





Steph

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #472 on: July 12, 2011, 08:04:02 AM »
I did really enjoy both books and liked Edward, warts and all. I admired Ross's obsession to keep Edward safe. That was his threats to both Isabell and Betty. He feared for Edward.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

Jonathan

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #473 on: July 12, 2011, 11:07:50 AM »
Marvellous character that Ross. Always playing with a full deck. Very kind and thoughtful of Feathers to let him have the watch. Solicitors should never be without one. I seem to remember that as one reason given why the London solicitor failed to show up for Betty and Edward early in the book to legalize their last wishes. But then again, the beginning was really the end and Ross had by then parted with the watch. I've learned from this book that the Barrister/Solicitor relationship can be a very close one.

Jonathan

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #474 on: July 12, 2011, 11:30:41 AM »
There may well be more to it than we have read so far. The tale of this Ancient is a strange one, and given the literary allusions in the book, it inevitably reminds one of Coleridge's Ancient Mariner with his albatross. It took  thirty years of revisions before Coleridge was satisfied with his masterpiece. I like to think our discussion will encourage the author to tell us more.

bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #475 on: July 12, 2011, 11:34:29 AM »
Yes, Jonathon, I hope JG will be providing us with the answers to our questions we posed to her.  I just anticipate the more we know the more questions we will have to ask.  lol   Wow!  30 yrs revisions, imagine that.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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  • Arlington, VA
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #476 on: July 12, 2011, 04:51:38 PM »
Just in after five days away from my computer - babysitting four small grandchildren while their parents were away. Nothing's unpacked yet.  Checked email first thing -  no response yet from JG.  After quickly reading through your posts it occurs to me that we will get more answers from one another than we will from our evasive author. :D

Joan R - a splendid explanation of the missing watch - a talisman, representing the bond between Loss and Filth.  As long as Loss has the watch, the bond remains.  He will be there for Filth whenever he needs him.

Bella, your question why Loss lied to Filth about his watch - is a good example of the evasive style of this author, I thought -
Traude quoted Loss' response - "that had to be sacrificed in the avuncular search"  Not a lie as I see it.  Loss, in the role of the benevolent uncle, cannot return the watch/talisman as long as Filth needs his help.  So he evades the question and changes the subject.

"Edward was his alter ego." - Steph, another way of looking at Loss.  He did need Filth and their bond - which was represented by that watch.  What will become of him now that Edward is gone?

Jonathan - "The Ancient Mariner" probably does provide an explanation of the albatross - Do you remember how it went?  How did you see the albatross in Coleridge's poem?    Another book - on Loss this time?  That was one of the questions we've asked JG - the subject of her next book.



JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #477 on: July 12, 2011, 05:03:15 PM »
"JG's first answer to JoanP was  not really as "clear-cut" as we had hoped. "  I agree, Traude.  Furthermore, I don't expect that any of her answers to the questions she chooses to address will be any more clear cut!
 Remember how we hoped to find answers to unanswered questions in Old Filth in Man in the Wooden Hat?  She did answer some questions, but they only left more questions.  I suspect that this is her style and she is not about to change now.  Still it's fun to watch how she plays the cat and mouse game with her readers, don't you think?  I enjoyed both books, the first more than the second - even if there are many questions left unanswered.

What did you make of the author's comment comment about The Man in the Wooden Hat?
  "The book is primarily about the importance of law and order.  Be ye never so high, the Law is above you".  What did she mean?  Your thoughts?


straudetwo

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  • Massachusetts
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #478 on: July 12, 2011, 07:38:39 PM »
Welcome back, JoanP !

Regarding the books being primarily about law and order ---  Hmmmm
 That would never have occurred to me; and others have weighed in with similar assessments.
I think she was gracious and generous in agreeing to answer questions, but I'm not sure she likes it. That was precisely my feeling when the question of her "method" was mentioned (remember way back ?), and I had cautionary words, while Bellamarie felt it would be quite normal and taken as flattering. But  I still think it was prudent to call for caution  because authors have different sensibilities.

Of course it's impossible to  do justice to the companion book in one week and, as Bellamarie pointed out,  we really have dug very deeply into the lives of thee fictional characters, exhaustively in fact.  If we missed or misinterpreted anything, it's not our fault. We did the best we could, and if we are way off, JG has the power to correct our "take",  if her time allows.

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #479 on: July 12, 2011, 11:48:53 PM »
straudetwo, Most all of your authors who have interacted with us have always welcomed our questions whether it be about their "method" or insight, etc.  I don't think JG would feel any different, I would guess she is just a busy person and doesn't have the time.  I think it was an honor for her to respond to us earlier. 

JoanP, Welcome home!  I do in home day care and have six grndkids who come with my paying kids, so I know how you must feel.  24/7 is alot to take on, I barely can do a sleepover with the grndkids.  Oh but the pleasures and rewards you get from the time spent its such a treasure.  Thank you for posing the questions to JG, I really feel she has alot going on in her life and just can't get to us.  I truly enjoyed this discussion, and will check back now and then to see if she responded.  For me I feel this discussion has come to an end.  I will look forward to our next book together, til then....

Ciao for now
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden