Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online

[Steph]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

June Bookclub Online  Everyone is welcome!

Old Filth
 by Jane Gardam

"The opening pages of the book find Filth (Sir Edward Feathers), a retired but still unassailable old barrister whose reputation has grown to such mythic proportions that it obstructs the hard truths of a man so damaged by his past that he has found himself forever unable to love. It's only as Filth toddles gracefully into old age that he can begin to rediscover the parts of himself that he has locked away and come to terms with the dark secrets that made him the man he became."   (Reviewed by Maggie O'Farrell) The novelist,  Jane Gardam was born  in Coatham, North Yorkshire on July  11. 1928. Her title character's late-in-life questions about whether his life has had meaning are especially moving—and universal, given this author's own experience and age. “Both witty and poignant, this work is more than a character study; through her protagonist, Gardam offers a view of the last days of empire as seen from post-9/11 Britain.  Borrowing from biography and history, Gardam has written a literary masterpiece that retraces much of of the 20th century's torrid and momentous history.”  Library Journal

click on map twice to enlarge

Discussion Schedule for the coming week:

- June 26 - 30   The Donheads; Chambers; Last Rites;  The Revelation; The Inner Temple Garden  p 220-290

Some Topics for Consideration
June 26 - 30

1.  What does the easy friendship between Filth and Terry Veneering reveal about what had happened in the past?

2. Writing his memoirs did not come easy to Filth.   Were you disappointed they weren't included in this story?  What do you think he included?

3.  Why does  Loss's defection seem to Eddie a metaphor for his life?  Does he bear him any ill feelings?  Why would he take his address book? Why might he have demanded Eddie's father's watch?   Do we know what became of his father?

4.  At the end of the voyage, how  was Eddie's  condition diagnosed?  Can you see a reason why his diagnosis might affect his future? 

5.  How did he get assigned to the Queen's guard?  Why would Queen Mary take such an interest in Edward? Was this believable?

6. What did his brief interlude with Isobel reveal to each of them?

7. What does Filth's heart attack make him realize about his life? Is his memory fading?

8.  What did Claire's letter reveal about the horror in Wales?  Had you figured out what it was?    Were you surprised at what Filth revealed in his confession?

9. Is Filth at peace with himself at the end?  Were you satisfied or unsatisfied  with the ending?

10.  What do you think Jane Gardam accomplished with this  novel?
 

Related Links:
  UK Legal System  (rosemarykaye);
  The British Empire;
  BBC interview with Jane Gardam on Old Filth, 2006;
  A Brief Biography of Rudyard Kipling;
  Kipling's "Baa Baa Black Sheep";

Discussion Leaders:  Traude  & Joan P

I guess in some ways, I dont really care what the author set out to do. I like my own perception of the book.. Some authors really feel that their characters lead them and others dont.. Who knows here, but I do know that I enjoyed this whole experience.

[ursamajor]

The Ancient Mariner, then a young man, shot an albatross.  This was considered very bad luck for the ship, so the other sailors condemned the young man to wear the albatross's carcase tied around his neck.  The ship did run into disaster; the whole crew died except for the young man.  At one point spirits animate the dead bodies of his shipmates to operate the sails.  The story continues at great length, including the verse "Water, water everywhere but not a drop to drink".  Finally the young man sees male and female spirits, Death and Life in Death, playing dice for his life.  His final punishment is that he MUST tell his story to others, thus he grabs the wedding guest and tells his tale.

[straudetwo]

Ursa, thank you for the perfect synopsis of The Rime of The Ancient Mariner.  The reference in the book is appropriate and further proof, if any were needed, of JG's deep knowledge of literature and landscape,  evident on the first page of TMITWH  about the Donheads and  "Thomas Hardy country".

JoanP, I was interested in your take on "the avuncular search" in your # 476. With respect, I had considered the bond between Eddie and Loss as one between equals of the same age group.  That Loss would be  like an "uncle" to Eddie did not occur to me.

There is a reference in OF on pg. 219 when they are about to part and Loss says,

"I've a bit of money and I won't be alone. I've a couple of uncles. Attorneys.  Everyone's an attorney in Colombo. I shall be an attorney one day. So will you, I can tell.  I'll be safe from the Japanese.  I'm not British. Not white. Come with me. My relatives are resourceful."

It would seem that Loss's quick, flippant remark makes to Eddie in 1947 London is the right follow-up.  Loss may have had to look for the uncles, and they were resourceful with connections to he Signal Corps and British Intelligence  (Isobel)  to track the boat's return.
he remark is not n outright lie, nor is it the truth, It is an evasion. because the watch had not been sacrificed. Loss was carrying in his hat the entire time.
(BTW, did any of you read Katherine Anne Porter's  magnificent Ship of Fools or saw the equally great movie ?)

Absent any further elucidation from JG,  we have no definitive answers to new questions. JG did say the book is primarily about law and order.  It is her book.   I can only say that was not my impression, and not what some of you here perceived. How do we know what JG meant regarding  law and order ?  Would it make a difference if we knew what she meant ?

[JoanR]

I'm having "deja vue" all over the place!
  Ursamajor posts the synopsis of "The Ancient Mariner" whilst I'm in the middle of reading another of Jane Gardam's books - "Queen of the Tambourine".  She has in it just referred to Coleridge and the albtatross!  Not only that, this book contains a key incident of the main character accidentally being locked out of her house just as Eddy was in "Old Filth".  Oboy, Pelion on Ossa!!!!!!!!!!!  Love these connections!

[Steph]

I need to look up the short story book of hers since there is a story that concerns our two books.. Just have not done it yet.

[Jonathan]

A quote from Traude's post #482:

'JG did say the book is primarily about law and order.  It is her book.   I can only say that was not my impression, and not what some of you here perceived. How do we know what JG meant regarding  law and order ?  Would it make a difference if we knew what she meant ?'

I nearly fell off my chair laughing when I first read JG's tipoff. Surely she was pulling our leg, throwing us a new challenge. There's far too much artistry and invention in her tale to put it into the L&O genre. The best that can be said about Old Faith is that it is truthful after a fashion.

From JoanR's post: ' "deja vue" all over the place'

And that makes me smile. I've also picked up another of JG's books: FAITH FOX. It begins with the death of the mother giving birth to the heroine. I'm hooked. How will this child make out?

Traude, what connection do you make between KAP's Ship of Fools and JG's work. I'm intrigued. I'm at the point where I feel that JG's book deserves a Road to Xanadu treatment. Remember that one? The Lowes' book. How Coleridge managed to come up with his fabulous Rime. And that other masterpiece, Kubla Khan.

[straudetwo]

Jonathan,
interestingly some of us are reading other books by JG, and lik what she has to say. I certainly want to re-read The Queen of the Tambourine and especially The People on Privilege Hill.  Fourteen very different stories describe protagonists who display widely varying reactions to the vicissitudes of life.  JG is a keen observer, she has a gentle touch, wit and the ability to depict the essence of a character with a minimum of words, and without being judgmental.  We have already remarked on her fabulous prose style and her imagination.  She should definitely get "The Road to Xanada treatment".,  As for coincidences - there are people who do not believe that there are any coincidences. JG may be one of them.

Actually, I didn't mean to make a comparison to KAP's Ship of Fools; if I had attempted one, it would have been  a so-called limping comparison = in German  "ein sogenannter  hinkender Vergleich" .  Porter'sShip of fools is an allegory, with a look backwards to the medieval "Narrenschiff" more a satire  by a Swiss author named Sebastian Brant or Brandt in the late 1400s.

It was the idea of the ship  in both Porter's novel and in OF gave me pause.  In both cases a voyage into the unknown, one  big ship,  the other a small boat, with only passengers. On the return voyage to England, many died.  Boyht sail into uncertainty, and there is a dwarf in both.  Porter's book was a sensation, but the movie bis clearer in my mind because I saw it once or twice rerun on a cable channel.  A splendid cast, Vivian Leigh, Simone Signoret,  Oscar Werner,  Lee Marvin ... and Michael Dunn as the dwarf.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Fools

[Steph]

I loved Ship of Fools.. the movie that is. Dont think I ever read the book.

[JoanP]

Steph - would you care to read Ship of Fools with us?  It may be worth considering for group discussion in the fall.  From the link -

"The story takes place in the summer of 1931, on board a cruise ship bound for Germany. Passengers include a Spanish noblewoman, a drunken German lawyer, an American divorcee, a pair of Mexican Catholic priests. This ship of fools is a crucible of intense experience, out of which everyone emerges forever changed. Rich in incident, passion, and treachery, the novel explores themes of nationalism, cultural and ethnic pride, and basic human frailty that are as relevant today as they were when the book was first published in 1962."

I've been away from my computer for the last four days - and have had time to think about our watch for  Jane Gardam's response.  The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that she has a full plate and may have been overwhelmed by our questions.  I'm thinking of how she has responded immediately to individual questions, but has avoided the first list of 6 questions.  I do intend to write to her again and try a new strategy.  Will send one question at a time...and then if/when she responds, send her another.  Will also drop a number of questions on her writing habits, etc.  Clearly she does not want to spend the time responding to questions like that.  She's busy!  She's writing a new novel.  Maybe one question about the new novel...

It's time we close this discussion, but we can create a page of questions and responses and let you - and everyone else know when it is ready.  Maybe we'll have a response by the August 1 Book Bytes and can send out a link to everyone.

In the meantime, I hope that many of you who voted for Cosse's The Novel Book Store will read the book and come into this month's July Book Club Online discussion. -  We're hoping to glean titles for fall discussion from that discussion too - This is a bookstore that carries ONLY Good Novels.

Thank you all for your patience - and above all for your outstanding contributions to the discussion of both of Jane Gardam's novels.  It's been thrilling and exhiliarating coming in here every morning!

Love,
Joan

[rosemarykaye]

Joan - thank you for running it, it's been really interesting.

Rosemary

[JoanP]

Well, you're very welcome, Rosemary.  Thank YOU for your contributions - I know I speak for Traude too - your "translations" and explanations were so very helpful - and interesting!

[PatH]

I'm good with whatever anyone wants to do about the questions to JG, including letting her off the hook completely.

This has been a remarkable discussion.  I hadn't even heard of Gardam before, but now have enjoyed her books immensely.  It has particularly shown the strengths of our type of discussion.  The story is told in a back and forth manner that leads to confusion and missing of details, but all of us together managed to catch all, or most, of the threads, and fill in for each other on the details and discrepancies.

I'm very grateful to JoanP and Traude for their great leadership.  It wasn't quick or easy to provide all that analysis and careful steering.  And I'm particularly grateful for the decision to prolong the discussion with TMITWH.  That added and clarified and changed our ideas of what was going on.

One of our more stellar discussions.

[bellamarie]

JoanP, You can do what ever you wish about contacting JG.  I personally think she was gracious enough to give us her input earlier, but like all authors, I am certain she is quite busy.  When she agreed to answer questions from us, I suspect she did not intend to spend much time with it.

Thank you and Traude for the discussion on both books.  The Novel Book Store sounds interesting.  I searched my libraries from my nook color and none of them have the book, I did a search through Barnes and Noble on my nook and they also did not have it.  So my last place was a trip to Borders and they said I could go on-line to Amazon and get it but I went on vacation so I may try getting it later. 

So till our next discussion, everyone have a great summer!

[straudetwo]

Gosh - I just lost a long post on which I worked a long time - because I clicked on "preview", something I never do and have no experience with.  And gone was the post.  Arrrggg

It has to do with an interview with JG conducted by Lucasta Miller on July 30, 2005. It was long and I had no time to read it so I saved it.
In light of the messages posted today, I pulled it up and read it.  It has some important information, among other things, on JG's method of writing. One paragraph I quoted in full.  I simply must share the information with you.  But it's too late now, still hot and sticky.

Will try again tomorrow.

[Steph]

Ship of Fools..Maybe October. I will be gone half of September and even though I will take my IPAD, wont check email that much. or go on line. More for reading on the September trip to Scotland. I want to try and get a guide book that I can access n there as well.. I loved this discussion, have loaded the short stories on my IPAD and will read them..

[Jonathan]

A marvellous discussion. Thanks to all who participated for your stimulating posts. Thanks, especially to Traude and Joan. And to the author, congratulations on her remarkable book. I am content to think she is busy working on another for our enjoyment.

Count me in for a read of Ship of Fools. I've already started on it. Seems to me I have the movie somewhere in my attic, and remember it as very good.

[JoanP]

Traudee, don't you hate that!?  Will watch for your post tonight.  Am off to write to JG now.

Steph - Jonathan - PatH Thank you! So glad you enjoyed this book.  Let's see what we can do about Ship of Fools in October...

[JoanR]

Traude and JoanP - Thanks so much for leading this great discussion - I have enjoyed it enormously - I should have posted more myself but I was so interested in what evryone else was saying (so many valuable contributions!) that I just absorbed it all.  I know that's not the right thing to do - it's selfish, actually, and I've made a vow to reform in the future.

[straudetwo]

Thank you, JoanR,, and all of you who posted.
eing 
Thank you all for joining us in our literary ventures and following us to wherever we are headed. Even  when th pertinnt informqton of qy oo iw qt hqne 9

[straudetwo]

I am sorry about the incomprehensibility of my last post. My eyesight suddenly failed me, which gave me a scare. Things are much better today.

As for the Jane Gardam interview by Lucasta Miller, it has occurred to me that it would be so much better if you could read the entire text. While I cannot make the URL work, there IS a way to get to the site.

 Google
guardian interview of Jane Gardam 30 July 2005,


and voilà !

This is a wonderful profile of JG. There are answers to a question by Rosemary (whether the early work reflects JG's own chldhood),
and our questions, about the  'guilty" pearls, and a detailed description of her method, and what (sometimes banal) things  provide a
spark that will become a 'building block' of sorts.  And how, when all the "collecting" of details is done, she begins writing "in a huge frenzy".

We don't know where in this creative process she is, but if she is in that last phase of writing in a huge frenzy, can we really expect her to stop to answer our questions ?

[PatH]

That's a good article, much too much to summarize

[PatH]

Traude, if you don't already know what caused that vision problem it's important to get it checked out, in case it's something that needs attention.  Vision is too crucial to ignore.

[Steph]

The Man with the Wooden Hat was on the list of books recommended by several authors in Time a few weeks ago. Mostly it was pretentious nonsense, but a few good books were in there. Ofc course the authors were also not people well known for the most part.

[straudetwo]

PatH, thank you.  I am aware of the seriousness of this occurrence.
I have macular degeneration, the "dry" variety, and only peripheral vision in one eye, but I was not prepared for a total failure of vision.   Yes, I'll see the ophthalmologist. Thank you again.

[JoanP]

Every time I come in here to close this discussion, there's something interesting - so interesting I hesitate.  That's an exhaustive interview, Traude.  Thanks for bringing it here.  I agree with, PatH - make an appointment.  The first step is the hardest.

And Steph - don't you find it odd that Man in the Wooden Hat was on that Time magazine list - and not Old Filth?  I mean think of reading Man in Hat first  without ever having read Old Filth?  Wouldn't that have been confusing?

[Steph]

Yes, it makes no sense to read The Man withouth first reading Old Filth, but as I said, the list was nonsense. Lots of NY authors being "Oh so impressive" with lists of books that are not read much.. Sometimes Time is just way too NY..

[PatH]

Steph, this closely parallels what happened with Staying On, by Paul Scott, subject of a recent excellent discussion led by Traude. It's a coda to the 4 volume Jewel in the Crown, but got the Booker prize when Jewel wasn't recognized.  It stands better alone than TMITWH does, though. 

[straudetwo]

PatH, I wholeheartedly agree.   However,  Staying On  had a tangible connection with the tetralogy, The Jewel in the Crown , and  was a triumphant  (if sad) conclusion to Paul Scott' masterpiece.

When TMITWH was published in 2009,   several reviewers said that it should be read preferably in tandem with OF -- which is what we did as best we could, given the time constraints.  OF was published in 2004 and the review in the NYT came out two  (!) years later.  In our OF discussion, we took the liberty to refer  to WMITWH as "companion" book, even  "sequel",  but JG made no such acknowledgement.

Steph, I saw the book list in TIME magazine and was not impressed. Nor am I happy with certain journalistic innovations in the magazine, newfangled features, sidebars in red an blue, sometimes in script so tiny as to be indecipherable, even with the magnifying glass.
It may well be a conscious effort to attract the impatient, restless young twitters who'd rather tweet than read.  

[JoanP]

Many, many thanks to all of you who made the discussion of these two novels so memorable.  You've made it a pleasure for Traude and me -  to come in and visit with your thoughts each day.  You didn't miss a thing!

And of course, special thanks to Jane Gardam - for writing the novels and for tuning in to our comments throughout the discussion.  We do understand the time constraints on any writer and so we've appreciated every comment from this busy author.  If we hear anything further from our new friend, Jane, we will be sure to let you know.

Again, thanks, everyone.  Hope to see you soon  in the August Book Club Online discussion of Dancing at the Rascal Fair.

This discussion will be moved to the Archives today.