Author Topic: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online  (Read 126648 times)

serenesheila

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #400 on: July 03, 2011, 11:47:38 PM »



The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.


June Bookclub Online  Everyone is welcome!

Old Filth
 by Jane Gardam
"The opening pages of the book find Filth (Sir Edward Feathers), a retired but still unassailable old barrister whose reputation has grown to such mythic proportions that it obstructs the hard truths of a man so damaged by his past that he has found himself forever unable to love.
It's only as Filth toddles gracefully into old age that he can begin to rediscover the parts of himself that he has locked away and come to terms with the dark secrets that made him the man he became."   (Reviewed by Maggie O'Farrell)

The novelist,  Jane Gardam was born  in Coatham, North Yorkshire on July  11. 1928. Her title character's late-in-life questions about whether his life has had meaning are especially moving—and universal, given this author's own experience and age.
“Both witty and poignant, this work is more than a character study; through her protagonist, Gardam offers a view of the last days of empire as seen from post-9/11 Britain.  Borrowing from biography and history, Gardam has written a literary masterpiece that retraces much of of the 20th century's torrid and momentous history.”
  Library Journal  
click on map twice to enlarge

Discussion Schedule for the coming week:


- June 26 - 30   The Donheads; Chambers; Last Rites;  The Revelation; The Inner Temple Garden  p 220-290


Some Topics for Consideration
June 26 - 30


1.  What does the easy friendship between Filth and Terry Veneering reveal about what had happened in the past?

2. Writing his memoirs did not come easy to Filth.   Were you disappointed they weren't included in this story?  What do you think he included?

3.  Why does  Loss's defection seem to Eddie a metaphor for his life?  Does he bear him any ill feelings?  Why would he take his address book? Why might he have demanded Eddie's father's watch?   Do we know what became of his father?

4.  At the end of the voyage, how  was Eddie's  condition diagnosed?  Can you see a reason why his diagnosis might affect his future? 

5.  How did he get assigned to the Queen's guard?  Why would Queen Mary take such an interest in Edward? Was this believable?

6. What did his brief interlude with Isobel reveal to each of them?

7. What does Filth's heart attack make him realize about his life? Is his memory fading?

8.  What did Claire's letter reveal about the horror in Wales?  Had you figured out what it was?    Were you surprised at what Filth revealed in his confession?

9. Is Filth at peace with himself at the end?  Were you satisfied or unsatisfied  with the ending?

10.  What do you think Jane Gardam accomplished with this  novel?
 


Related Links:
  UK Legal System  (rosemarykaye);
  The British Empire;
  BBC interview with Jane Gardam on Old Filth, 2006;
  A Brief Biography of Rudyard Kipling;
  Kipling's "Baa Baa Black Sheep";


Discussion Leaders:  Traude  & Joan P





I had forgotten that Betty was in a POW camp during the war, with her parents.  I am happy for the reminder.  I forgot, too, that her mother died in the camp.

In addition, I totally missed the fact the LOSS took Betty to the place where she had her assignation with Veneering.  I came away with the impression that LOSS picked up her green, silk purse in the car.  It makes me wonder what else I have missed.

I have changed my mind about Betty not loving OF.  She did love him, it just was a passionless love.  Not a good basis for a marriage IMO.  I would really like to know how long Betty and OF were acquainted before his proposal

Quote
straude - I think what I take away from the books is the understanding that everyone perceives the same things differently, and that we can never really entirely know another person.

I agree.  I think this is true, also, about characters in a book.  None of us EXACTLY perceive the same thing about a book.

Steph

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #401 on: July 04, 2011, 08:36:18 AM »
Still reading the second book as I get time..The Anthony Trial takes up a lot of time.Fascinating to me.
I still am unhappy with Betty.. She kept as many secrets as Edward.. They did not have a proper courtship. I dont recall even having an idea of how long they knew each other. But they did nto discuss children and that should have been a base line. I know someone who divorced her husband when she discovered that he did not like or want children.
Betty seems to be good at spending money, so it is a good thing that Edward is good at making it..  Ross/Loss.. I think he was in love as much as he could be with Edwared.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #402 on: July 04, 2011, 09:03:14 AM »
Good morning!  
Took the day off yesterday and now have so many back posts to catch up on.  We do have the rest of the week to chat about this book as we await Jane Gardam's response to our questions.  I am quite concerned about her, she was eager to respond a week or so ago, and since have heard nothing.  Hopefully she is well and is just having scheduling problems - aren't we all!  

Steph - let us know when you reach the end of the book - there's a surprising revelation to be found there.  How many of you are still reading Man in Wooden Hat?

The Man in the Wooden Hat was supposed to be our answer key for the questions left unanswered in Old Filth.  Isn't that what you were expecting?  Perhaps it is - we just have to look closely to find the answers. Jane Gardam does not spell out the anwers in a straightforward way.  I suppose life isn't like that either - the answers are not provided in a straightforward way either.  What lingering  questions do you still have?  Maybe we can find the answers together.

Sheila -  I'll agree with you, we each perceive these characters in a different way.  So we probably will come up with more than one conclusion to some of these questions.  As Traude says, we can never entirely know another person.  Why should it be different with a book character?  Maybe it's WHO we are that determines how we view Betty - or any of the book's characters...

I'm remembering a quote from an Interview with Jane Gardam - I think Bella brought it here - "I tend to see in people's faces the child's face. The child's face is the most important face we have."   What I'll take from this book is a deeper understanding of the child within - not only within myself  (I understand her) but in my understanding of those around me.  It is the circumstances of one's childhood that form the way we view world, the people we meet and  how we react to problems, or challenges.
I think we all have weaknesses and insecurities.    That's nature.  But isn't it the way we pick ourselves up from our stumbles and mistakes and live out our lives that determines who we really are?  

It's kind of funny, I thought -  Both Betty and Filth shared the same weakness - a sexual attraction to someone other than each other.  (I've decided that there was only one person who ever sexually satisfied Filth - and it wasn't that buttermilk girl.)  They eachkeep their secret.  Except Betty is unaware of Filth's.  Would it have made a difference is she knew?

I don't dislike Betty.  I feel sorry for her. Steph, I don't think Filth did not want children...although I remember he did say in Old Filth that he thought he'd make a terrible parent.  I think he accepted the fact that Betty would have children when they married.   Betty dreams of children.  In Man with the Wooden Hat this becomes clear.  She expects to have lots of  them - and lost the only one she ever conceived.  After her operation, she might never have been able to have them.  After Filth's VD, he might be sterile.  Those questions can not be answered.  But Betty did not consider leaving Filth for Veneering.

When they run into one another unexpectedly in Amsterdam, he begs her to come away with him.  She must be bored out of her mind with Filth, it's their last chance at happiness.   She gets up and walks out.  "Goodbye, Terry.  I'll never leave him.  I told you.

V:"But I'm still with you.  I'll never leave you.  We'll never forget each other."

On the last step of the staircase she said, "Yes.  I know."


JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #403 on: July 04, 2011, 09:31:19 AM »
Betty and Veneering's chance meeting in the gallery in Amsterdam?  That's the gallery with the wood carving - the man wearing the removable wooden hat!  Chapter 28.  Don't you wonder if there is such a carving in a museum in Amsterdam?  I'll bet there is!
Funny that Veneering brought up the dwarf when he looks at the bust.

I've a question for you - in the first chapter, where we learn that the family next door to Filth have moved, , a sale sign is placed on the property, the place stands empty for quite a while until early one morning the paper boy notices "a dwarf standing in the lane."  What did you make of that?  Did Loss buy the house next to Filth?

That's an unanswered question, isn't it?  Why did Veneering move in next door to Filth after Betty died?  Any ideas?  Is there a reason JG has not answered this question - or is the answer implicit in the book?

bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #404 on: July 04, 2011, 10:51:57 AM »
JoanP,
Quote
But Betty did not consider leaving Filth for Veneering.

Betty said, I must go to him.  Meaning Terry, and then she set out a plan of action when she would pack and leave Edward.  She wanted to plant her tulip bulbs first.  That just seemed so cruel to feel the tulip bulbs mattered in a life altering situation.  So of course planting the bulbs set the scene for the pearls to drop, she looks up and sees Edward pretending to shoot at the birds, says she can't leave him, and drops dead.  Ughhhhh......

I have said all along its a matter of perception, and so I have exhausted myself, and I am sure all of you, with trying to make sense and find answers to so many open ended events in these two books.  Sometimes you read a book, watch a movie or in real life come across a person you meet, get to know them, and just don't like them.  Betty is that person for me.  All the other characters in the book did not irritate me as much as she did. 

What I take away from this book is that I should not hold any author to the standard of having to answer all my questions.  Authors have the right to write their story the way they decide to, and the reader can read the story and come away satisfied or dissatisfied.  These are not the first books I have come away with questions left unanswered, and felt frustrated with and I am certain it will not be the last.  In our discussions we delve deep into areas and never leave a stone unturned.  While its fun and interesting we have found many times the author has said to us, there really was no special meaning and they had not even thought about what we purposed to perceive things as in their books.  I'm sensing this will very well be the case with many things we have thought meant something and didn't in this book.  After listening to JG's entire audio interview and readers asking her questions, I got the feeling they too expected more of an explanation when there was none for her to give. 

The dwarf was spotted everywhere, that's why my image of him was like a leprechaun.  lol

I hope you all have a splendid July 4th and get out and enjoy the  ********* FIREWORKS!!!!!!  *********  They were spectacular last night with my hubby, kids and grndkids laying at the foot of an open hill watching them fall all over us!!!!  Life is good.

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

straudetwo

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #405 on: July 04, 2011, 11:07:55 AM »
JoanP,  thank  you for your #402 and the even-handed description of pending issues left over from the first book.

Aren't we lucky, in 2011, that the second book exists ?  It took JG years to write.  It's fair to assume that  at the time she was also working on and off on her short stories published under the title  The People on Privilege Hll.

Did  you notice that in O.F. that Lacy Chloe lived on Privilege Road where Garbutt helped her with her asparagus bed until the call comes from Badminton ?

Jonathan said at one point these books  are like thrillers, where straight answers are hard to come by.

Steph,  Betty may have  spent Eddward's money for two years, but at age 30 she came into her own inheritance.

What I am really anxious about is to clear up the  persistent assertion of Betty's continuing/constant infidelity with Veneering.  
 I did not come away with that impression  at all when I had finished the book.  Pity is I no longer have the book before e before me to check.
p/color'

JoanP, yes I remember puzzling about the appearance of  "a dwarf" on the road or on one of the driveways between Veneering' san Edward's hoses. Remember, the paperBOY was 74! He insisted it was true.  I believe it is possible that Ross/Loss was there to check up. In Feather mainly, I'd say.  It would NOT have been out of character for Loss.  The question is what would have prompted Loss to check up on Edwrd's whereabauts  > Were they out of touch at that time >

JoanP,
 Vendeering was wealthy enough to afford his own house. Loss knew Veneering as Edwafrd's arch rival, a man botth hated. 
And something tells me that Veneering would never have accepted iy.


salan

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #406 on: July 04, 2011, 07:01:55 PM »
Jane Gardam's vocabulary is fantastic.  She gave me 8 new words for my vocab. list.  She certainly knows how to use words.  Many authors throw in words that sound pretentious, but JG's were so fitting.

I think some of us are to quick to judge Betty in a negative light.  I certainly don't condone her actions, but I can understand them and have sympathy for her.  Why aren't you judging Eddie as harshly???  In Wooden Hat Amy tells Betty (when Betty is lamenting her liason with Vaneering)  "Rubbish, it was lust.  It was natural desire.  Or maybe it was only resentment.  You told me yesterday that your marriage frightened you because it meant that you would never know passion.  You did it to have something to remember & to have known desire."  That was in chapt. 7.  Then in chapt 8, we learn that Eddie hasn't asked her anything about herself and doesn't even know the color of her eyes.  Wasn't it a strange wedding??  It seems to me as though OF and Betty married each other because they both felt that it was time for them to be married.  They sort of deserved each other!
Sally

PatH

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #407 on: July 04, 2011, 07:18:03 PM »
Bellamarie, you're right, the dwarf L(R)oss pops up at odd times, often just spotted in the background, but sometimes to do something crucial.  I can't figure out why he showed up in chapter one--to check up on Eddie? looking at the empty house?  I can't believe he bought the house, then sold it to Veneering, since he knew how deep their enmity was.  Gardam says it's a coincidence, but not a big one, that Veneering should buy that house, since it was such a likely place for retired international lawyers to go.

Jonathan

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #408 on: July 04, 2011, 08:48:47 PM »
quote from Pat's #407: 'Gardam says it's a coincidence, but not a big one, that Veneering should buy that house, since it was such a likely place for retired international lawyers to go.'

Really? I have no sound on my clunky computer and so I have not listened to the interview. That leaves me in stitches. What's to prevent me from saying that I see it as an incidence of an author's interference in the lives of her characters. She must bring these two together, through thick and thin. Left alone, they come together in the end. The thick of it was, the author suggests, an Homeric animosity. Something, the author tells us, like the anger between Achilles and Agamemnon, in the Iliad.

I've had a problem with that all along. The author seemed to be helping the old judge along, acting almost like his remembrancer. Don't get me wrong. I've really enjoyed the book, and found this discussion a very lively one. I liked the 'keep 'em guessing style' of OF. Not  so much the 'tell all' of the second.

I found the old judge's crossing of the bar very touching. Hail and farewell.

After all those years he was still sentimental about Isobel. After all she was his first love. Blame Sir and his crazy schooling system that his boys knew all about the birds and the bees, and nothing about girls. What was OF thinking when he admitted to himself that he could never have satisfied Isobel? Never given her what she wanted. A child? Given coincidence, anything goes. Throwing her letter into the waste basket was like despairing of himself.

Steph

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #409 on: July 05, 2011, 08:00:52 AM »
I really dont understand why Betty and Edward married. Neither seemed to be in love, although I think that Edward is his shy backwardness was eager to please her, just not sexually or at least not much. Betty baffles me thus far.When you are 28 and a virgin, racing off with a married man who has a bad reputation .. She fell in love with the little boy.. She should have adopted when they could not have any.. Instead she turns to spending money and being bored. No resources of her own?? Still not finished the book, but probably will have some time this morning.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

Babi

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #410 on: July 05, 2011, 09:29:05 AM »
 I won't be getting TMITWH after all.  My daughter has been getting ready for a trip to Boston to
visit her daughter...leaving today...and has had no time to go to the library.   So I will say
THANK YOU SO MUCH to Joan and Traude for their hard work and to all of you for making this book so much more interesting.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #411 on: July 05, 2011, 09:31:57 AM »
Steph, I agree with your assessment of Betty.  The whole hiding from Edward that she and Lizzie were friends just baffled me too. 

I could see the damage the Raj orphanage had on Edward, but for some reason I did not see that in Betty, unless it was she was unable to be faithful and honest with either men she supposedly loved or cared for.   For JG to write an entire companion book about Betty's perspective, I was a bit surprised she seemed such a flighty, shallow person, especially at the age of 28, and didn't much change throughout their marriage.  She took to Harry instantly, and giving him the money seeing he had a Porsche knowing his father was not going to enable his irresponsible behavior was yet one more character flaw I saw in Betty.  Harry used Betty's emotional attachment to him and his father for his own selfish purposes.  The money issue really irritated me, she did not tell Edward or Terry about giving him such a large sum because she knew both of them would have been upset.  Her lies and deception right up to the end of the book was such a disappointment for me.  Not to spoil the ending, I must say I love the fact both men finally confront each other. 

I have to go pack to spend a few glorious, peaceful days away with my hubby in a small, quaint nautical town we love to visit.  I will try to check in since I will be taking my laptop with me. 

Ciao for now~


“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #412 on: July 05, 2011, 10:13:34 AM »
That sounds lovely, Bellamarie.  Enjoy.

JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #413 on: July 05, 2011, 10:47:01 AM »
Babi, thank you - we've enjoyed having YOU with us ..the plan is to keep the lights on until the end of the week - hoping for a response to our questions from JaneG.  They were good questions!  Right now I'm concerned about her.  She'd been so communicative until this last week - except about those questions ;)

Everyone, Babi and I would love to have you join us in a discussion of Ivan Doig's Dancing at the Rascal Fair in August - historical fiction - big family saga taking place as Montana becomes a state.  You will love it!  Please plan on joining us then.

Bella
- that sounds like the kind of vacation I'd love - but husband would never plan.  He's a tourist - likes to keep moving!  Consider yourself lucky!
It occurs to me as I read your posts - maybe Jane Gardam did not write The Man with the Wooden Hat to take Betty's side - or even to make us like her  Maybe she was trying to answer questions that arose in Old Filth - including more details of the relationship between Betty and Veneering...the relationship between Betty and Filth too....

We probably will never agree whether or not Betty remained faithful to Filth during their marriage.  I don't see Betty and Veneering ever having more than that one night of passion (which he would never have with Filth.)  before she married.  Did you notice that Betty  and Veneering spent the night in a building owned by Loss?  Interesting, no?
 The day she received the overwhelming news that her Harry had died, she is overcome and obviously not well when she thinks she must go to Veneering, but as she is planting the tulips, she decides she can never leave Filth - and she won't.  She dies making this decision.

Steph - an interesting question - why did the two marry? Were they ever in love?  I'm off to reread what Jane G. wrote regarding that courtship and see what their feelings and reasons were for getting married.  As I remember reading that section, Albert Loss took part in it somehow.  Didn't he set Edward up in the case in Singapore where Betty lived?  Interesting, how he is all over the place, as others have noticed..  Do you think that Man in the Wooden Hat is really about Loss, and not Betty's story at all?

Will be back - coffee break.

JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #414 on: July 05, 2011, 11:26:41 AM »
Jonathan, I like your idea of the author herself as the omnicient narrator - helping the old judge remember his past.  His Remembrancer, as you put it.
I've a question I'd been meaning to ask - regarding the quote placed at very beginning of the book - Any thoughts as to why JaneG chose this quote to begin the book?

"Old, forgotten far-off things
and battles long ago."  

PatH wasn't quoting from an interview when she put forth Jane Gardam's explanation of how Veneering came to live in the house next to Filth, Jonathan.  She starts right off in Chapter One - explaining how "the homes are attractive to retired professional classes..."
One day, after twenty years living in the Dorset house, the neighbors all piled into vans and cars - and left without a goodbye.  But now the feathers have the view all to themselves.  My guess is that the house has been bought out and they are forced to leave.  The house remains vacant for some time.  One morning the dwarf is seen in the road near the house.  Now do you suppose Loss has anything to do with this?  Does Loss own the house?  Do you suppose he steered Veneering to the house, knowing that his old friend, Filth needed a friend?  Does this have anything to do with the quote selected for the front of the book?

Son #2 just phoned - he's on the way here  for lunch on the way home from the beach.  I'll need more time to consider Steph's question.  Would love to hear from you - were Betty and Filth ever in love?  Why did they marry?


bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #415 on: July 05, 2011, 10:31:26 PM »
JoanP,  My hubby doesn't sit much, I call him the energizer bunny, but because he gets 2 weeks off and I only get one he lets me have a few days of relaxing by water because he knows it revives my body and soul.  Believe me he keeps me going.  I am exhausted taking a break in the comfort of the hotel room, he decided after getting up, packing the car, driving 3 hrs to our hotel, spending 4 hours at the casino, out to dinner, and drive through the town at sunset,  he needed a swim in the hotel pool.  Ughhh.....I'm surprised he ever sleeps.  lolol

I seriously did not think JG wrote the companion book to take Betty's side, or even to make the readers like her.  I saw the companion book as a way of giving us Betty's perspective and to hopefully answer some unanswered questions from Old Filth.  I feel the marriage was as I said earlier, a marriage of convenience.  Neither knew each other very long or very well, nor were they in love with each other at the time of the wedding.  I do believe in their own capable way they each loved each other as the years went on, in spite of their lack of sex, affection, and their pull to Terry and Isobel.  So sad.

I do hope JG is okay, it makes me wonder with your concern if she is too busy or feeling ill. 

I do think the companion book has Loss popping up at the most convenient and inconvenient times.  He was determined to protect and help Edward be successful in life.  Interesting thought about Loss steering Veneering to buy the house to provide Edward with a companion in his lonely old age. 

Okay off to the jacuzzi.......Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

straudetwo

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #416 on: July 05, 2011, 11:15:34 PM »
Did Betty love Edward ?  
I've responded to the question before, several times. There's not a shadow of doubt in my mind.
Frankly, I thought  most of us agreed on that point.

Why did they get married if they didn't love each other ?
People get married for different reasons.  To marry for love and forsaking all others  is the ideal.
(It was the reason for my getting married. It was not what my mother wanted.)
 
But people  also marry for other reasons :  monarchs, for example, when a spouse could not produce a male heir; or for financial reasons, perhaps to unite two famous dynasties and double he wealth. Sometimes they are called "marriages of convenience"= a marriage decided on when reason prevails, rather than the heart.

Edward needed a wife by his side at this point in his life. He told the disappointed Loss all about Betty's good attributes. Love was never mentioned. Betty was 28 and tired of wandering through Asia. She  remembered that her mother had wished she'd make a good marriage.  And she did. She kept her promise never to leave Edward, until her tied heart could bear no more.

And, as I've also said before,  I saw no evidence in the book that Betty had other furtive meetings with Veneering. The meeting in The Hague was coincidence - Filfth had asked her along.  When she learned of Harry's death, she wavered. She was almost ready to leave Edward then. The tulip bibs had to be planted, and her heart no longer had the strength.

JoanP,  in  Chambers we learn that Loss  had no time for celebrating with Edward because he had to fly off aghain soon, and also had to see his buildiers, for he was buying another house in t he Nash Terraces of Regent Park. "All in ruins. Practically free at presenyt."  
(Talking of war profiteers. Arrrggg.)

I don't think Loss had anything to do with Veneering's house in Dorwset. I saw no specific mention of that at all.  If he was sighted in the road, as the 74-year old paper carrierr swore, it was something JG planted without telling us why.  But we know that snooping and knowing everything was very much Loss's business.

The tree house is another matter. Did you notice Betty's impression the first time, when she's on her way to meet Veneering, and how sordid it all appears when Loss detoured there with her ? Loss rented the plae out, he told her, out the place by the hour or night. So he takes back there, whe they shoukd  really \be on the way to a celebration for Edward having been made QC. The little dwarf climn our of the car, uo the ladder, vanishes into the room, comes back down and throws her green evenig bag at her that held her passport.  The utimate humiliation.
Rubbing it in, forcefully. Showing who t he boss is. And Edward rusted him completely !

On the way over Loss  had told her  he owned a house, and she asked if Edward knew. "Of course not," he said.  The perfect personification  for the untranslatable German word  "Schadenfreude = undiluted glee and delight at the misfortune of another.

But there are a few more facts to ponder and they come out at the end.
Was there really a bond of friehdship between Filth and Veneering as we happily discovered in the first volume ? May be, may be not.
But it's plain that OF bore a grudge and had suspicions all these years, even knew there was another pearl necklace like his. He saves all tha for the lst evening before Veneering us to leave for the cruise.
He brings a bag of groceries over from his fridge. OF takes them into the kitchen and puts them in the waste bin. Then OF returns to the   past and baits Veneering. Veneering does not bite and says that it was long ago when they were young. Then Filth rstartlingly confesses that right after having proposed to Betty, he went incomunicado for two (days and) nights with Isobel, without contacting his bride. And, he asks, wasn't that the most terrible thing to her ? Veneering does not react.

And relentlessly continues : Wouldn't the only thing even worse than that have been if someone had been with Betty that same night ??
Veneering gives nothing away. Filth sees Veneering home over the rocky path. Then Filth mentions "the child'. Veneering stumbles. Stops.
"Child" ? he asks.  
"The baby Betty lost in the miscarriage before the hysterectomy..."

OF lies in bed thinking I have won. But it gives him little pleasure,  no feeling of triumph.
A phyrric victory, we might say, right, Jonathan

There's another important point, but it will have to wait until tomorrow. It is still hot and humid and I cannot sit in this chair any longer.
I will be back.


JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #417 on: July 06, 2011, 08:52:48 AM »

Good morning -
Looking for Steph this morning - hopefully she can finish Wooden Hat now that the Anthony trial jury has spoken.
Has anyone else not finished?

Did Betty love Edward when they married? - A question often questionned in this discussion.

Jane Gardam  portrayed an image of a young woman in love - with a few misgivings -   Understandable.
They did had been seeing one another on and off, every time Filth came to Singapore on the legal matter (arranged by Loss, be sure to note.)
"I met her, well, I've been meeting her off and on for a year or so.  whenever we come East,"  Filth explains to Loss.

Chapter Two opens with Betty's response to Edward's letter - "Yes."  "Oh, yes" she told the letter.  "Oh, yes, I think so."  Her face was a great smile."
"This was meant to be kept.  And she would.  She'd keep it forever."  "She kissed the letter and put it down her shirt."


Steph

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #418 on: July 06, 2011, 09:04:53 AM »
Finished the book. It was not Bettys story in the end but an amplicfication of Edwards.. Also in the afterward,JG says she has devoted three books to this man..What would the third book be?? A short story volume perhaps.
Betty... Edward loved her, but not like Isabel.. but look how he save her when she was stranded by the road.. and really tried to give her anything that made her happy. He just had real problems with communicating.
She adored the boy, Harry, but did not help him at all, with the money. He had been ruined by his parents and was not responsible. Liked both books, but want to ask JG what the third book reference is to.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #419 on: July 06, 2011, 09:21:02 AM »
Interesting, Steph - you see this as an "amplicfication of Edward's story."  I can see that.
Considering the book as a whole, don't you get a sense of Filth's loneliness - his solitary existence - his fear of being alone, his secrets, his suspicions he cannot bring himself to discuss with Betty.  (Traude, I'd forgotten he had noticed the pearls - but kept it to himself!)

Do you agree that the biggest unsolved mystery is the friendship with Veneering?  Some of you are comforted with the idea that Filth has his companionship in his old age when they are both alone.  Traudee has introduced the idea that perhaps their old rivalry is alive and well - that one-upmanship is still the name of the game.  Now that's something to think about.
But the question begs - WHY DOES VENEERING BUY THE HOUSE NEXT DOOR TO FILTH?  I just can't accept Jane Gardam's explanation - :D  That it was purely by chance - a good place for professionals to retire and this house happened to be advertised - in the London newspapers!  What's your theory?


JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #420 on: July 06, 2011, 09:25:30 AM »
"Old, forgotten far-off things and battles long ago"

Found the source of the quote found at the beginning of The Man in the Wooden Hat -   Wordsworth's 

"The Solitary Reaper"

In the first stanza the speaker comes across a beautiful girl working alone in the fields of Scotland (the Highland). She is "Reaping and singing by herself." He tells the reader not to interrupt her, and then mentions that the valley is full of song.


Behold her, single in the field,

Yon solitary Highland Lass!

Reaping and singing by herself;

Stop here, or gently pass!

Alone she cuts and binds the grain,

And sings a melancholy strain;

O listen! for the Vale profound

Is overflowing with the sound.

The second stanza is a list of things that cannot equal the beauty of the girl's singing:


No Nightingale did ever chaunt

More welcome notes to weary bands

Of travellers in some shady haunt,

Among Arabian sands:

A voice so thrilling ne'er was heard

In spring-time from the Cuckoo-bird,

Breaking the silence of the seas

Among the farthest Hebrides.

In the third stanza the reader learns that the speaker cannot understand the words being sung. He can only guess at what she might be singing about:


Will no one tell me what she sings?--

Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow

For old, unhappy, far-off things,

And battles long ago:
Or is it some more humble lay,

Familiar matter of to-day?

Some natural sorrow, loss, or pain,

That has been, and may be again?

bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #421 on: July 06, 2011, 10:16:16 AM »
JoanP,
Quote
WHY DOES VENEERING BUY THE HOUSE NEXT DOOR TO FILTH?  I just can't accept Jane Gardam's explanation -   That it was purely by chance - a good place for professionals to retire and this house happened to be advertised - in the London newspapers!  What's your theory?

Since JG wrote the book, ONLY JG can say why she had Veneering buy the house.  I accept her explanation she gave.  As many times we look for more than what is there, and its difficult when the author tells us something too simple and we think..hmmmm but I really think it was more.

JoanP, My intrigue is your zeroing in on Loss. 
Steph, Now it would be interesting if the 3rd book was indeed about Loss.  I suspect JG could have a real fun time with that character and reveal to us who, what, why, when and how about him.

So JoanP, you have found Wordsworth, seems JG has dropped many quotes from the classics.  I love it when we find these gems.

Quote
Considering the book as a whole, don't you get a sense of Filth's loneliness - his solitary existence - his fear of being alone, his secrets, his suspicions he cannot bring himself to discuss with Betty.

Absolutely!   I did like how he hit Veneering with everything in the end.  Final closure for him, and yes he thought it was a final win, but many times we think once we confront our rival/enemy and walk away feeling mission accomplished, we are still left with the haunting feeling left in us.

I think when Betty kissed the letter and said it was to be kept forever it showed all her hopes and dreams were going to come true.  Of course she expected that would include LOVE!  But....she realized instantly when she met with Edward that he was not intending that and she had to be disillusioned.  One second she is on cloud nine, and the next he has burst her bubble of happiness.  At that point I personally would have walked away.  The promise to her mother to marry did not have to be to Edward.  Instead she chose to go through with the wedding and live a life of deceit and deception.  "Oh the webs that we weave, when we set out to deceive."  (paraphrased)

Off to the beach before it gets too hot!  Ciao for now~   

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #422 on: July 06, 2011, 06:26:55 PM »
Some good news - an email from our author -

 "I will try to send answers tomorrow. I am just back from London and busy things to do with the Society of Authors.
Yes - there is such a carving of the man in the w.h. There is a big story behind it. I will tell you it soon" JG.

So stay tuned for her response - to the questions I sent so long ago, I can hardly remember them.  They were good ones, as I recall - though Veneering's proximity to Filth was not one of them, Bella!

straudetwo

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #423 on: July 06, 2011, 09:59:01 PM »
JoanP, we might expect that a literary authority of JG's caliber is busy and in demand with all sorts of things, in addition to her own writing output.. It's very generous of her to respond to our questions.  But she's probably not going to tell us who and what her new book is about.  >:(

Steph,  yes, the third JG  book in which OF appears is indeed a collection of short stories, The People on Privilege Hill. As best I remember,  he's only in one story, the first one, if memory serves.  Did anyone notice that 'Lacy' Chloe, as OF calls her, lives on Privilege Hill ? Garbutt is there, helping her with her asparagus bed(s) when the hospital calls concerning OF.

The mention of the child is a huge surprise. Clearly, the baby could have been Vendeering's or OF's. She suffers a miscarriage and is not getting better. Finally she agrees to see a doctor, surgery is suggested and she goes to England to have it done.

When Betty arrives there's word that Harry has been hurt and faces an operation,  possibly an amputation  (which he may not survive). I think the mesage came from the school and said Harry was on his way to the hospital.  Betty sets off at once. At  first she's taken as Harry's nanny, then addressed as Mrs. Veneering. The doctors fill her in about Harry's condition she agrees to stay in his room for the night until his father gets there.
Harry is overjoyed to see her.  The operation is a success. A haggard Veneering arrives the next day and thanks her.  She leaves,  without telling him that she''s having surgery that day, and checks intp the hospital.  A hysterectomy is performed. That ends all hopes of having a child of her own. (If it had been a D & C, tehre's have been some hope.)

Under these circumstances, is there any reason to blame Edward for being sterile, IF he was indeed sterile ? i think not.

similarly,  I do not believe there were any  further dalliances between Veneering and Betty, and  no proof has been furnished. I've ordered the book and will check it as soon as I can.

I liked OF and TMITWH, The People on Privilege Hill, and the other JG books I've mentioned before.  I love her  imagination, her insight into women's psyche; the splendid prose;  her flights of fancy (in The Queen of the Tambourine, for example).
 
De gustibus non est disputandum  = there's no use arguing about tastes,   and I'd be the last to try.   I do not see a discussion as  a debate,  and I would never want to "stir the pot".

Thank you for your company in the first discussion and, where possible, the short one of the second volume.  At least now we know how some of the more "mundane" things turned out ;D !
 
 

PatH

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #424 on: July 06, 2011, 10:33:47 PM »
I have so much stuff to say it’s hard to know where to begin.

 Timing of events is very important  in this book, A prime example is Betty’s behavior after she learns of Harry’s death.  On the way back from London, she realizes she is going to leave Eddie.  As they pull into their station, she sees Albert Ross, looking right at her.  They go home, she sees the tulip bulbs waiting to be planted, and thinks “I’ll get them in the ground first, tell him tomorrow afterwards.” 

Next day, she is planting the tulips and her pearls slide off .  She buries them.  Only then does she look up at Eddie and think “it’s too late.  I can’t leave him now.”

I don’t think she would have left him.  This looks to me like the sort of thing you fantasize about to get out of a situation, but aren’t actually going to do.  She thinks about it, but makes excuses to postpone it.

She buried the pearls before she consciously thought “I can’t leave him now”.  There would be no reason to do that if she were going to Veneering; V. had given them to her (more as a reward for caring for Harry when he was sick than for infidelity).  She really knew that it was all over for her, maybe even foresaw her death.

JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #425 on: July 07, 2011, 08:12:43 AM »

Thanks for the information on the third book on Filth, Traude.  Let's hope for a clue on Jane G's next novel.  Who suggested that it be on Loss!  That's funny!  What do you think Loss represents in this story?  Do you think he was important - or might the tale have been told without him?

You are so right, PatH!  About timing being everything. You make a good point- why would Betty be burying the pearls if she planned to leave her husband?  These were Veneering's pearls - she'd take them if she intended to leave.

Now I'm wondering whether Betty knew she was dying when she said "I can't leave him now." ;)  Was she burying the pearls because she knew she wasn't leaving - burying her guilt along with her guilty pearls?


Steph

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #426 on: July 07, 2011, 08:26:57 AM »
Betty loved Harry, not either man. Amazing, since Harry grew up to be a not so nice person..
Stephanie and assorted corgi

bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #427 on: July 07, 2011, 09:46:51 AM »
So when both men agree that Betty loved Harry, are we to understand they feel she never loved either of them?  In their remark is JG saying she loved Harry in a motherly way or in a different way?  I did not see Betty loving Harry other than in a maternal way.  Maybe I missed something.

I got the feeling the pearls fell off her neck while planting the tulips.  JoanP, Interesting point on burying the pearls because she changed her mind and decided to stay, attempting to bury her guilt and the "guilty" pearls.  I got the feeling that when she looked up at Edward shooting the birds, she felt a sense of sadness and sympathy and yes, possibly over ridden with her own guilt.  I don't suspect she knew she was dying, because she said "after" she plants the bulbs she would pack and leave.

PatH, That is a possibility about making excuses why not to act on her intent to leave, it would give me a better understanding as to why she would see it necessary to take the time to plant tulip bulbs first, before making a life altering decision.

JoanP, I think if there had been no Loss, then no one would have known of Betty's affair, Edward may not have moved up the successful ladder as quickly if at all.  I never really felt he was necessary to the book, but then of course had he not been in the book then why have a companion book titled TMITWH, since he was the person it refers to.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #428 on: July 07, 2011, 12:41:38 PM »
I've been following the discussion very closely and am overwhelmed by the twists and turns that you are all finding in the lives of Gardam's characters. I've missed an awful lot and will have to reread the books.

Old, forgotten far-off thins and battles long ago. My book doesn't have that curuious quote, Joan.

phyrric victory How very apt, Traude, in imaginging OF's feelings.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave. Right on, Bella, as a comment on the author's style.

The overall effect of OF's story on me is a feeling of melancholy nostalgia. Schoen war die Jugendzeit, sie kommt nicht mehr. Translate it for us, please, Traude. I'll miss these friends, and I can only add another poet's musings to those from Wordsworth, Scott, and Lamb: from Henry Vaughan.

They are all gone into the world of light!

And I alone sit lingering here;

Their very memory is fair and bright,

And my sad thoughts doth clear.


Life's saddest moment. Turning the last page and puttingdown a good book.

Jonathan

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #429 on: July 07, 2011, 12:48:51 PM »
Well, I'm sure only of Betty making it to the realm of light, when I think of her last vision. I can't help feeling that she was partly a mystic.

bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #430 on: July 07, 2011, 06:10:44 PM »
Jonathon,
Quote
The overall effect of OF's story on me is a feeling of melancholy nostalgia.

Melancholy is a perfect word!  After I finished TMITWH I was feeling sad and a bit depressed, but I think melancholy is a better word for it.

I was in a hurry when I posted the famous quote, here is the correct wordage:

Oh! what a tangled web we weave.  When first we practice to deceive!
                                                                                                     Sir Walter Scott, Marmion, Canto vi. Stanza 17.

The quote is, surprisingly, not from Shakespeare but from Sir Walter Scott , in Canto VI, Stanza 17 of "Marmion" (1808) an epic poem about the Battle of Flodden Field in 1513.

The meaning is, basically, that lies beget more lies, and that masking lies with more lies creates an ever-more-complex arrangement of falsehoods.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_poem_contains_the_words_Oh_what_a_tangled_web_we_weave_when_first_we_practice_to_deceive#ixzz1RSagKNl9

Yes, Jonathon, I see the author did get a bit tangled up in the lies of her characters.  Because of all the lies, it made it difficult for me to trust in the true feelings of the characters in both books.





“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

serenesheila

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #431 on: July 07, 2011, 07:45:10 PM »
I am having vision problems, and must drop out.  On the 19th I have an appointment with my opthamologist, to evaluate if I am ready for my cataract surgery.  Right now, it seems there is a film over my eyes, and they are discharging a liquid. 

This discussion has been interesting, and fun.  Thanks to our hosts.

Sheila

straudetwo

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #432 on: July 07, 2011, 08:05:48 PM »
Good luck, Sheila. I hope all goes well at the eye doctor's. There's nothing more precious than eyesight.
Thank you for having been a  part of our discussion.

PatH

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #433 on: July 07, 2011, 08:46:27 PM »
Shiela, if you happen to read this, cataract surgery turns out to be painless and tolerable.  Your vision bounces around a lot during the healing process, though.  Don't be disconcerted by that.

straudetwo

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #434 on: July 07, 2011, 09:57:27 PM »
Jonathan, oh yes,  schön ist die Jugend, sie kommt nicht mehr. is the refrain of a folk song I remember well.
It dates back to the 1870s, and ha four verses. The quoted words are the refrain. Touchingly simple, it embodies the spirit of German Romanticism.
It gives voice to nostalgia for youth, for all youth meant, and that, once it has passed, is gone forever.

I remember my mother singing it in her beautiful alto voice and being pressed to accompany her on the piano.  Another favorite of hers was
The Last Rose of Summer from the opera Martha by Friedrich von Flotov. When we had guests, they'd ask for it, and oftenthere were tears.

Letzte Rose, wie magst du so einsam hier blühn ...

When the war came, there were no more musical evenings.  But I enjoy the memory.

Jonathan,  we can be confident, I think, that both Betty and OF found release from all that had preoccupied them in their lives, and the brilliant light we're promised to experience. 

Got the book today and will re-read it using a fine toth comb. Ha !

Steph

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #435 on: July 08, 2011, 08:02:48 AM »
In tne end, I really enjoyed both books. They taught me a lot about the Children of the Raj and the pointless disregard for children in the zenith of the empire.. I liked Edward..Awkward, stammer and all. Betty,, not so much. But  really enjoyed Loss.. A serious scammer, who adored Edward forever
Stephanie and assorted corgi

bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #436 on: July 08, 2011, 04:50:39 PM »
I want to thank JoanP and Straude for doing a great job in leading our discussion with not just Old Filth, but to agree to the extra week for TMITWH.  I have enjoyed being a part of the discussions and am glad I got the opportunity to be introduced to yet one more new author I probably would not have stumbled upon myself.  These were complicated books to discuss, but I think we all did a great job uncovering every little stone.  It was eye opening for me to learn families sent their children away to Raj orphanages, in hopes of keeping them safe from the war, even though they spent years being mistreated.  What I think I am the most appalled with, is the fact these parents didn't seem to know the abuse was happening,  or didn't make any efforts to stop it, let alone take their children out of the abusive environment.  Edward's life showed the effects of the abuse, and the neglect of a parent not being there for him.  It caused him to not be able to accept love and affection on a level a wife and husband would need to have a healthy, loving marriage.  Betty in turn decided to marry a man she knew from the start lacked affection and love for her, yet for her own reasons, she chose to go through with the marriage of convenience and turn to another man just minutes after accepting the marriage proposal.  It may have been the only one time she slept with another man, but her secret contact with Veneering and Terry throughout the years, was dishonoring her marriage vows, and the promise she was supposedly fullfilling to her mother to get married and be happy.

Was staying with Edward in order to keep a promise "not to leave him" worth it for any of the people involved?  Terry staying in a marriage knowing he loved Betty seemed cruel, considering the damage it did to their son Harry.  All the adults in these two books just seemed to act in their own wants and interests, not caring the consequences it did to the children.

I am anxious to see the answers JG gives to all our questions.  Again thank you to all for a very enjoyable, interesting and informative discussion.

Ciao for now~ 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #437 on: July 08, 2011, 08:14:59 PM »

Jonathan,  we can be confident, I think, that both Betty and OF found release from all that had preoccupied them in their lives, and the brilliant light we're promised to experience. 
Yes!  You are probably not up to there yet in your rereading, but here are his last moments:

When he stepped off the still-vibrating plane and smelled the East again, the hot airport, the hot jungle, the heavy scents of spices and humans and tropical trees and tropical food, Filth forgot everything else and knew that memory was now unnecessary and all desire fulfilled,  Betty at his shoulder, he fell into the everlasting arms.  The mystery and darkness and warmth of the womb returned him to the beginning of everything and to the end of all need.

PatH

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #438 on: July 08, 2011, 08:54:16 PM »
Traude, you will need your fine tooth comb.  Mine has been breaking teeth off in the process.  These are easy books to read straight through, but when you start to analyze them, they get very complex indeed.

What is Betty really like?  In Old Filth, I felt I didn't get much sense of it.  In TMITWH, she is fleshed out some, but I still don't feel I know her.  At the start, she seems a little flighty, then, when they go to London, all of a sudden she is someone who can manage to mobilize municipal services and private workers to fix up her flat when everyone thinks it impossible.  She gets an OBE, I'm not quite sure for what, but it's a pretty impressive accomplishment.

In OF, someone says that Betty and OF "saved" each other.  It's clear how she "saved" him, but not how she was "saved".  We get almost no notion of the scars from her "Raj orphanage" and internment.

PatH

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #439 on: July 08, 2011, 08:56:49 PM »
Did anyone notice that on his final, fatal, cruise, Veneering broke his ankle in the same cleft that frightened Betty on her homeymoon?