Author Topic: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online  (Read 57286 times)

HaroldArnold

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #280 on: September 25, 2011, 03:29:29 PM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.


Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe


 
JOIN US in September as we renew our history, a more accurate history, of events that most of us remember very well.   Historians are now able to not only do research into fresh new documents, but personal interviews have uncovered a wealth of information that is stunning to read.  A young, untested, wealthy,  U.S. president meets a Russian premier, son of a coal miner; Kennedy and Khrushchev, opposite in every way, yet holding the world in their hands.  It's drama at the very best.

President Kennedy called the year a "string of disasters;" Kempe called it one of the worst of any modern presidency. 

The book is divided into three parts:  THE PLAYERS, THE GATHERING STORM AND THE SHOWDOWN.
Fascinating history, dramatic with new research into documents never before explored.

The Players

         

 Left to right: Krushchev - Ulbricht - Kennedy - Adenauer

Discussion Schedule


 
Some Topics for Consideration
Sept 23-30      Part III  Pages 364-end

1. Discuss the unique location of the Steintucken enclave with respect to the border between East and West Germany.   How did this enclave reinforce Clay’s theory that the Soviets would back down when confronted by a determined West opposition? 

2.  Discuss the September 23 rd weekend party at the Kennedy compound at Hyannis Port ocean retreat with guests that included Frank Sinatra, Peter Lawford   and playboy Porfirio Rubirosa with his latest wife.  With the party revelry in the background what important task was the President completing?

3.  Discuss Khrushchev’s request for a second Kennedy/Khrushchev meeting that caused Kennedy cut short the Hyannis Port party to fly to New York Sunday Morning September 25th.  With whom did he meet?  Who had delivered the Khrushchev’ request for the meeting?   What did President Kennedy say about the Berlin Issue in his speech to the United Nations September 25th, 1961?

4.  Discuss the continuing pen pal letters between Khrushchev and President Kennedy.  How were they delivered?  What was Khrushchev’s motive for sending these letters, and Kennedy’s motive for answering them?

5.  Discuss the 22nd Soviet Party Conference held in Moscow Oct 19, 1961.  Who were the delegates?  What were Khrushchev’s weaknesses as he faced the delegates?  What were his strong points?  What bombshell announcement did Khrushchev make to the conference?

6.  Discuss the effect of the Soviet Party Conference on U.S. and allied countries Cold War Berlin policy.  What were your thoughts on reading the material regarding a U.S. “First Strike Plan?    Were you impressed by the apparent overall strength of the U.S. resulting in its Satellite and other intelligence information on the location of Soviet launch sites and air bases and the overall greater strength of U.S. air and missile launch capability?  What concrete measures were ordered strengthening U.S. air and ground forces in Berlin?

7.  Discuss the Showdown at Checkpoint Charley in late October 1961.  What were some of the preliminary
events leading to the showdown?  (The Lightner border crossing incident, General De Gaulle’ hawkish reluctance to negotiate with the Russians on any Allied rights of Access in Berlin, and the apparent friction between General Clay and President Kennedy on basic policy issues.)  How was this October confrontation resolved? 

8.  Discuss the book and its author.  What about it did you find particularly interesting and/or particularly uninteresting?  Would you like to discuss other books about the Cold War?  What other nonfiction subjects would you find interesting.

Related links:
Frederick Kempe's home page;
  New York Times Book Review;


Discussion Leaders:  Ella  & Harold



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Harold:
Joan regarding Khrushchev's dedication to peaceful east/west coexistence I too I have my doubts.  However  he certainly was not above using the concept as a short term means of serving his governments best interest.  

Kidisal I too was surprised at reading of the extent of the U.S. consideration of a "first strike" policy.  Apparently there was those in the U.S. government who believed the U.S. was in a better position in the event of an atomic exchange and that the US could inflict near Knockout damage with a first strike.  At the time the US. had both long Range missiles and a fleet of long range manned bombers.  These planners might have been right on that but England, France and Germany would certainly have got there 50 each and the U. would have got at least a few.

I agree with Jonathan's assessment of General Clay.  Kennedy appointed Clay his Personal Representative in Berlin that apparently meant he reported direct to the President rather than to the Defence Department.  I think his handling of the Steintucken Enclave was necessary and appropriate.  Generally Clay and JFK got along good but there was some friction in the Fall of 1962.  

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #281 on: September 25, 2011, 04:10:41 PM »
Perhaps, JONATHAN, I did get the wrong impresson of Clay; however his maneuvers reminded me so much of MacArthur - returning to the Phillipines and then later, taking charge in N. Korea, exceeding his orders.   (see pgs. 417-18).  Clay had to be reprimanded twice by his superior officer for his secret operations.

I certainly agree, JOANP - "In my memory, he (Krushchev) was a menace, a threat, a man who had the power and the inclination to set off nuclear disaster, just to prove his position in the world."  

That's why it's fascinating to read history, we read the details of which we were ignorant at the time.  Do you think American presidents or any leader of a country would be a student of history trying to apply those lessons learned to present day problems?  We could hope so

HAROLD,  the pen pal letters were of interest, certainly new interest, and would be enlightening to researchers/historians  wouldn't they?  I looked up the source for them - State Department, Office of the Historian, Foreign Relations.

There was an article in my paper a few days ago about Iran - our troubles there, scary!  This from the AP - "Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad says he would welcome a hot line with the United States or any other way to head off conflict in the Persian Gulf.........the hot line, modeled on the old emergency-contact line between the United States and the Soviet Union would let a U.S.commander quickly call a senior Iranian military official for clarification of Iranian motives, or to complain."

JOANK, you may be right about Kempe.  His parents were immigrants and he speaks German and in the acknowledgment this (not mentioning names) "It was my parents who instilled in me an indignation both toward those who imposed and those who tolerated the oppressive system that encased 17 million of their fellow Germans...."   Thanks for your post and the information that about the scientists with whom you worked.

We are the generation who remembers it all, the fear and the uncertainty of the Cold War.

straudetwo

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #282 on: September 25, 2011, 11:46:43 PM »
My posts have been few but I have been following the exchanges here, though mostly I have been reading the book - with some anxiety, I admit, knowing that I had to return the book within two (2) weeks. That is the norm for new books.
Therefore I could not in good conscience simply "sit" on the book, disregarding readers on the waiting list. Miraculously, or so it seemed seemed,  I was given an unheard of extension of time into October and can now devote some of my reading time to posting.

Ella, if I may say, it can be illuminating to read reviews of books by professionals. I always do. In the present case I read the NYT review of June 10, 2011 by Jacob Heilbrunn, titled "Did JFK Lose Berlin?" It is a long, very interesting review, and the author answers it indirectly  in one paragraph, which I quote:

"But did Kennedy really bungle matters in 1961 ? Far from appeasing the Communists, Kennedy was simply ratifying longstanding American policy. At the Yalta and Potsdam Conferences, the Russians, British and Americans arranged to dvide Germany into four zones of occupation.  Had Eisenhower been willing to accelerate the pace of battle in April 1945, he might have been able to reach Berlin before the Red Army.  But he had no interest in sacrificing American soldiers for a political objective.  So Stalin, at an enormous cost of lives, liberated Berlin."

# 254 by Joan K.  The points are well presented and valid, IMHO.  Readers have a right to expect an author to present facts as objectively as possible, irrespective of his personal likes or dislikes of personages. In Chapter 5, for example,   which deals with Adenauer and Ulbricht, and in which the author compares the two vastly different men,  he is not consistent in citing the source of remarks a worried Ulbricht uttered, while tugging with his mustache.. How can the author know this little fact ?  

I had wondered whether the author has a German background but not read the acknowledgements.  We read that his mother was born in 1919 in Berlin and went with her family to America in 1930. So she was eight.  The author's father was born in Saxony in 1909. We can assume that they met in this country and that the author was born here.  It is to be expected that he heard, understood and retained German.  
I wonder how the author pronounces his last name. In German words ending in an "e", the "e' is pronounced and heard, and would sound like Kempuh , as in  "sole mio" or antedeluvium.

One last word for tonight : the Italians and the Germans were not the only Europeans to embrace Fascism an Zazism, there was also Sir Oswald Mosley in England. Diana Mitford, the most beautiful of the Mitford girls, left her husband and children for Mosley.  Admirers of Hitler, they were married in Berlin in the office of propaganda minister Goebbels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Mosley

More tomorrow.

HaroldArnold

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #283 on: September 26, 2011, 09:17:45 AM »
Straude it is nice to have your post We understand your limited time with the book.  Regarding the Nazi's in England they had their Moslley but he was never in power in the Government.  To my knowledge he was not even in the Parliament.  Also in the U.S. the German American Bund group was at times vocal though never really a significant political force .

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #284 on: September 26, 2011, 10:02:02 AM »
TRAUDE:  How nice to hear from you.  We have read several reviews in this discussion, the Washington Post Review, and others on the Internet and, as you will notice, the NYTimes review is in the heading.  I agree, it is most helpful to read reviews.  Indeed the author's parents were immigrants and he speaks German well.  While working for the Wall Street Journal in several capacities he served as Berlin's Bureau chief and editor and associate publisher of the Journal's Europe edition.

You may be interested in his latest book Father/Land: A Personal Search for the New Germany.  

Jonathan

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #285 on: September 26, 2011, 01:06:28 PM »
'So Stalin, at an enormous cost of lives, liberated Berlin.' NYT review

'It was my parents who instilled in me an indignation both toward those who imposed and those who tolerated the oppressive system that encased seventeen millions of their fellow Germans behind Berlin's concrete walls, barbed wire, watchtowers and armed guards.' Frederick Kempe

Such irony in the one statement, such indignation in the other. So nice to hear from you Traude. I'm sure you could tell us many things that would help us to understand the strong feelings on both sides.

Ella, I see where you're coming from regarding Clay and the MacArthur/Truman association, having just read that part of the book. Clay certainly had them worried in Washington.

HaroldArnold

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #286 on: September 26, 2011, 07:24:21 PM »
Ella:  most certainly the pen pal letters are preserved either in Washington archives and/or at the Kennedy Library.  They are certainly available to scholars and the general public by internet access and probably at the archive site. 

Regarding Presidential Libraries, in Texas we now have two and will soon have a third.  The oldest and closest to me is the LBJ library at Austin on the University of Texas campus.  I have use it on a number of occasions not related to the LBJ Presidency as they often have scholarly seminars on a variety of subjects.  I remember meeting Representatives from the Lipan Apache Indian Tribe Reservation in Oklahoma who brought interesting information on the current Lipan generation.  There have been others including one 15 or more years ago that Ginny asked me to attend.  I remember it was a 2 day affair on a Friday and Saturday and I commuted from my home in Seguin, but for the life of me I don't remember the subject.

The Bush I Library is now open at Texas A & M university that is about 50 miles east of Austin.  I've never visited this one.  The Bush II Library will be in Dallas at Southern Methodist University.  It is not yet open.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #287 on: September 27, 2011, 08:59:42 AM »
I'm so sorry, am not feeling well, flu or something.  Went to the doctor yesterday, will be back ASAP.  And such interesting chapters to be discussed.  We just have 4 more days!

The end of Stalin, the huge new bomb!  War???   Easier to talk about than to fight said JFK.

Back when I'm stronger

HaroldArnold

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #288 on: September 27, 2011, 12:24:16 PM »
Did you as individual Americans on Oct 27, 1961 realize the gravity of the situation at Check Point Charlie?  The Russians had just reinforced their Tank force by bring up reinforcements in the form of 20 additional.  tanks.  Clay took this as a sign of Russian caution since apparently the 20 additional Russian tanks brought their number to parity with the U.S. number.  Clay knew he had no more U.S. tanks to bring in; he also knew the Russians had yet more in reserve and he did not.  From my reading of the chapter, the fact that both commands seemed determined to display their awesome capability, yet so far as the commanders in the field by order from their respective highest command were to avoid  firing the first shot.  The danger was a nervous lieutenant at the ready with his right hand on the trigger firing the shot setting off a world War.


What were you doing that day?  Were you aware of the gravity to the situation in Berlin?  The truth is I don't really  remember that day.  I was probably at work  
 


HaroldArnold

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #289 on: September 27, 2011, 12:41:12 PM »
We are now approaching the conclusion of this discussion but a lots of loose ends deserve your comments including your thoughts onf Clay' handling of the situation just prior to the showdown day and in particular the growing fiction between Clay and Kennedy.  And also the Aftermath chapter.  Please EVERY BODY participate  in these concluding few days.

HaroldArnold

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #290 on: September 27, 2011, 12:55:57 PM »
Jonathan the fact that 17 million German people were enslaved behind the Iron Curtain was the result of the Yalta Conference agreement.  FDR agreed to it, a fact generally considered poor judgment resulting from his poor health at the time.  Churchill agree to it also.  In his case he had the opportunity just a few years later when at a University at Fulton Missouri in the United States to made his "Iron Curtain" Speech telling the free world that the Cold War had begun.

Jonathan

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #291 on: September 27, 2011, 03:09:45 PM »
Harold, I'm already looking for a good book on Yalta. Any suggestions? FDR's health must have affected his negotiations with Stalin. Everyone agrees he looked terrible. He came to Yalta with plans for a peaceful world. Stalin had no hopes for peace as long as capitalism and class held sway on earth. It was as hopeless to talk ideology as it later was for Kennedy and Khrushchev in Vienna. And there was the small matter of getting Stalin to help with the rest of the war in the East.

Was there a falling out between Roosevelt and Churchill in the end? Churchill was hoping to talk strategy with Roosevelt in Malta, before proceeding on to Yalta, but Roosevelt wasn't having it. Incapable? It was surprising that Churchill didn't attend Roosevelt's funeral, at the very least a splendid occasion to  deliver a great eulogy. I found it touching that Gorbachev attended president Reagan's last rites.

I would have liked to be there at Checkpoint Charlie that night. What excitement. I'm also a fan of General Clay's. Didn't he scare the hell out of them. Even built a mock wall in one of Berlin's empty lots for his tanks to practice on.

Jonathan

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #292 on: September 27, 2011, 03:13:53 PM »
Get well soon, Ella. Stay away from doctors. I came away with something myself the last time I went to see one.

JoanP

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #293 on: September 27, 2011, 03:32:59 PM »
Oh Ella - do take care of yourself!  Rest...fluids.  No substitutes!
Harold, I'm racing to catch up- should get to chapter 18 on "Checkpoint Charlie" this evening. There's nothing written on stone that says we need to finish up in four days - we can take another week if needed.  Don't want to turn the light out without our Ella!

As you say, Harold, there are lots of loose ends that merit attention - and Traude is just now joining us again.  I'm really interested to hear from you, Traude,  how the German people regarded the US -  both immediately following the war - Clay's amazing airlift of German citizens out  Berlin for one -  and now some 15 years later, risking nuclear war to protect Berlin - and West Germany.  It is somewhat mind-boggling, isn't it?  We had just concluded a world war - against Germany, with so much bloodshed, and now we are willing to risk more lives to protect them.  I know the answer - the war was not against the German people - but rather Hitler's army.  Still, it is an abrupt about-face and difficult to understand.  I'd love to hear Traude's perspective.  Had the Germans been led to believe that we were the enemy - a threat to them? 

 

JoanP

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #294 on: September 27, 2011, 03:35:53 PM »
 Even though I haven't yet read the chapter, I'm going to answer your question, Harold - "Did you as individual Americans on Oct 27, 1961 realize the gravity of the situation at Check Point Charlie?"

No!  A resounding no!  I got chills reading the four points in Chapter XVII that us to a nuclear disaster.  Even though it was a little reassuring knowing that Kennedy wanted to keep the number of casualties to a minimum - under a million...  Whoa~ a million lives, the minimum~  Plus there were no guarantees that once started, things wouldn't get out of control and escalate.  

Harold, I'm wondering where I was - what I was thinking about  in October, 1961. Boyfriends, maybe.  I was single at the time.   But I do know I wasn't following world events.  I'd have remembered this.  Did you realize the gravity of the situation?  Or was this all kept secret from the press and the American people?

mabel1015j

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #295 on: September 27, 2011, 04:31:05 PM »
I got the book yesterday, so I'll try to read this last section first.

I was in college in 1961, a history/pol science major and i do remember a lot of talk (propagand, which is often true) about how the communists had to wall their people in to keep them there, that they had been leaving in droves.

I haven't read the previous section yet so i don't know how scary it is to read. I don't remember thinking there would be a war over it, but i think that was always in the back of my mind when these crises came up.

Re: the next world war - after WWII when there began to be talk that the Soviets were working on a hydrogen bomb, as the U.S. Was also,  someone asked Einstein how he thought the next war would be fought. He said i can't tell you how it will be fought, but i can tell you
that the one after that will be fought with stones!

Jean

HaroldArnold

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #296 on: September 28, 2011, 11:30:32 AM »
Thank you JoanP, we will continue into or even through next week.  

Regarding my conscious concerns avout the the grave situation at the close of Oct. 1962 as I look back I have either erased the recollection from my memory or I was ignorant of the bleak prospects.  Frankly I don't see how I could not have been aware of it because to orchestrate the crisis on Oct 30, 1961 the soviets actually  tested the 50 Megaton hydrogen bomb at a Siberian test site.  This test had been  promised by Khrushchev at the close of the 22nd Soviet Congress two weeks earlier.  For pictures on the test click the following

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxD44HO8dNQ&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOwEcLiK4cA&NR=1

I have a better recollection of the Cuban Missile crisis the following year.  At the climax I took some vacation towed my boat to Corpus Christi.  I ran it 40 miles south down the Intercoastal Canal fishing for Speckle trout and redfish. When the crisis was compromised the second day I returned to San Antonio    About 35 miles from San Antonio I got a speeding ticket for exceeding the 55 MPH speed limit then in effect for towing trailers.  

JoanP

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #297 on: September 28, 2011, 12:56:48 PM »
That was a great way to unwind, Harold...except for the added aggravation of the speeding ticket upon your return! ;)

My husband is looking forward to reading the book - when I'm done with it.  He has a much better memory than I do...and does have a recollection of the stand-off at Checkpoint Charlie.  Maybe it wasn't big news here - wasn't featured on all of the TV channels - as it would  be today.  It really didn't last too long - but there are references to Daniel Shorr's CBS radio program - and articles in the NY Times.  I'm guessing that by the time it was reported, the tanks had pulled back and so there wasn't that much public reaction.

Certainly  a dramatic picture, wasn't it?  The 10 US tanks and the 10 Soviet tanks facing one another, poised for action.  More important  than the drama, I think, was the realization that the two "allies"  are now officially hostile enemies.

Quote
"For the first time the forces of two wartime allies, now the world's biggest powers, had met in direct and hostile confrontation."

Quote
"Khrushchev had put nuclear strike forces on special alert status for the first time ever over a US-Soviet dispute."
Harold, the video of the test of Tsar Bomba brought tears to my eyes.  The idea that so many people were put to work to create a bomb capable of taking the lives of so many!  We've come a way from that, haven't we?  Haven't we???

Anything could have happened that day - "who will blink and pull back - or who will shout and start a war?"  You knew as you read it, that a war didn't start that day - but who blinked?  



 

JoanP

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #298 on: September 28, 2011, 02:03:59 PM »
I've got a question regarding General Clay.  Did Kennedy in fact send him to Berlin merely as a symbol to West Berliners, expecting him "to live in a vacuum" there?  Really?  Did Clay ever agree to that?  What DID he agree to?  How did he understand his role there?

Jonathan

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #299 on: September 28, 2011, 02:54:58 PM »
Is history being revised? Is JFK being put on trial in this book? Or does the author with his (east) Berlin roots have an axe to grind? He certainly has made it interesting.

I'm intrigued by the role that Clay played in the crisis. Somebody had to rally the troops while the C-in-C considered his options. It's all not enough for the author. What might have happened, if.... He certainly sums it up in that last paragraph:

'What Kennedy could not undo was the Wall that had risen as he passively stood by, which for three decades and perhaps for all history would remain the iconic image of what unfree systems can impose when free leaders fail to resist.'

Still, the crisis marked the the high mark of Kennedy's presidency. In his own words after the adulation from the Berlin crowd:

'We'll never have another day like this as long as we live.'

HaroldArnold

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #300 on: September 29, 2011, 11:21:37 AM »
So far as I'm concern the Wall was not an evil happening; on the contrary it was a fortuitous happening,a pragmatic way out.  I am convinced that if the Russians had not discovered that they could seal the Berlin border with the Wall, either a War would have ensued or the West would have had to leave Berlin.  Better the Wall than WW III.  Granted the cost was another near 30 years of Communist slavery for the 17 million East Germans. 

Kempe on p478 says that Kennedy was so unnerved by the crisis that he sent his brother, Robert Kennedy to solve the crisis with his regular Washington interlocutor, Georgi Blolshakov.  This was on Oct 26th, the day before the crisis peaked with the tank confrontation on Oct 27th.  Robert Kennedy told Blolshakov that the President would like them (Russia and the U.S.) to take their tanks out of there within 24 hours.  Robert Kennedy would later maintain that this demonstrated that Bolshakov delivered effectively when it was a matter of grave importance.  In any case on Oct 28th Khrushchev instructed Soviet Marshal Konev to withdraw soviet tanks first telling him that he was sure that the American tanks would withdraw within 20 minutes of the pullback.  Kempe adds on p 480. Khrushchev “was speaking like a man who had just made a deal.”  A few months later Clay was removed from Berlin.  Future handling of Cold War problems would be by more conventional staff, the President but working through the State Department rather than more independently through the White House staff and Russia Embassy staff.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #301 on: September 29, 2011, 12:49:49 PM »
Just a note.  Am better but weak.  I've read all your posts, agree with most!  And I agree, JONATHAN, Kempe was very harsh on President Kennedy.  Wish we could ask him why? 

JONATHAN, read a book on Yalta and report back to us.  I know the four powers that set this plan into motion - that is, to punish Germany for its sins - succeeded, for the most part, to stabilize the country and set up a democratic government.  Well, they were stymied by the Soviet Union. 

Didn't they have an inkling this may happen?  They certainly knew the history of Stalin and his cohorts, but if they suspected that the Soviets would not adhere to the agreement within their sections of Germany and Berlin, was there any provision made to enforce a representative government?  Probably not.

It seems somewhat loose to me, this Yalta conference and the others but what would have been the alternative.  When you have multiple allies fighting one country.  That boggles the mind somewhat!!

We have one more day, unless people want to continue for awhile.

I enjoyed the book, the history. 

A new book, sure to be a bestseller, is by Candice Millard, who wrote River of Doubt (a very good book)  The book is about President James Garfield and here is a very short summary:

James A. Garfield was one of the most extraordinary men ever elected president. Born into abject poverty, he rose to become a wunderkind scholar, a Civil War hero, and a renowned and admired reformist congressman. Nominated for president against his will, he engaged in a fierce battle with the corrupt political establishment. But four months after his inauguration, a deranged office seeker tracked Garfield down and shot him in the back. But the shot didn't kill Garfield. The drama of what hap­pened subsequently is a powerful story of a nation in tur­moil.

JoanP

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #302 on: September 29, 2011, 01:04:22 PM »


So happy to see you here, Ella, even if weak.  I was posting just now while you were.  Will try to get back this afternoon to comment on your questions...

"Is history being revised? Is JFK being put on trial in this book? Or does the author with his (east) Berlin roots have an axe to grind?"

I'm not sure if history is being revised, Jonathan - so much as the interpretation of the events as they happened.  I feel Kempe was sending mixed messages when he writes, "historians gave Kennedy more credit than he deserves"...citing new evidence that shows he did not envision the Wall would fall, or foresee a unified Germany or the Soviet Union collapse."  He tells his close friends and associates, Powers and O'Connell, that Germany would never be unified.  The wall and unification were never Kennedy's top priorities.  Preventing a nuclear showdown was.  I don't think we can fault him on that.  

Consider the position he was in -

Either attack the Cuban missiles and risk retaliation - (do you think Khrushchev really meant to aim missiles at New York?  Or is this a threat?  I really don't think he wanted to do that.  But who knew at the time.)
Or - the other option
 - trade a Cuban missile pull out - for a US pull out in Berlin.  Kennedy sees the choice - if Krushchev takes Berlin, then we'll take Cuba.  Did Kennedy really think that his tough, firm, unwavering stance demanding a withdrawal of the missiles in Cuba - would actually work?  Did Bobby come back from his meeting with Bolshakov with assurances that a deal could be worked out?  What if the speech or the meeting with Bolshakov hadn't worked?  Would the US have ceded Berlin?

I suppose  by agreeing to keep hands off in East Berlin and the Wall was enough for Khruschev.  And I suppose this is why Kempe is still bitter about the deal -  (I don't have any doubt that the author has an axe to grind - regarding the three decades of hardship his extended family had to endure under Soviet rule.)

But in the end, Kempe does seem to soften in his assessment of Kennedy. - The speech in Berlin showed  a new Kennedy speaking of the unification of Germany, of the German nation and the rest of Europe.  From then on, Berlin was a place that would be defended - "from that point on, neither Kennedy nor any other US president could retreat in Berlin."  

mabel1015j

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #303 on: September 29, 2011, 01:29:01 PM »
Just got a notice from American History TV (cspan3). They ate runnung a British documentary on the Berlin Airlift this weekend.

Saturday - 8:30am
Sun- 3:30pm
Mon-4:30am

Jean

straudetwo

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #304 on: September 30, 2011, 01:12:20 AM »
Ella,   So glad to see  your post and hope you will get all your strength back very soon. 

Thank you for alerting me to Kempe's Fatherland : A Personal Search for the New Germany.. Roger Cohen, the NYT reviewer, is mostly complimentary in his judgment of this book  but wonders (as do I) what Kempe means by "the new Germany".  Mr. Cohen feels Kempe is "obsessed'.  The title of the review is "Guilt Trip".  According to the reviewer, Kempe reveals in this book that there are Nazi skeletons in his father's German relatives, and he is sensitive of the reflection on himself. The book is a report of a trip Kempe took  accompanied by a Jewish leader whom he did not tell about the skeletons.  Forgive me but I find that irritating.

Berlin 1961 is valuable as historical reportage especially because here in this country we did not have full knowledge of the circumstances and how close to a nuclear confrontation we came.  There are some repetitions of the same material about certain details, about Adenauer for example. And there are at least two references to the Bild Zeitung with quotes relevant to the situation.  It surprised me that Kempe has consulted this particular paper as a source.  Published  inHamburg by the Axel Springer Verlag, it was called simply "Bild" (picture) at one time and has always been considered a scandal sheet (in my time some called it a "Revolver Blatt" (rag)").  I was incredulous when I read that  organ  is the most-read paper in Germany.  But I checked and it is true.  In fact,  it  has become  the most-read paper in all of Europe despite its poor reputation.

I felt uncomfortable by the fact that Kempe makes no bones about his intense dislike for Kennedy. Perhaps the author objects to him on moral grounds ? In my humble opinion  It is of no importance  what an author thinks of the character of historical personages, or whether he approves of what they did or did not do at a crucial moment in history.  Just the facts, Ma'm, just the facts, please.  I am reminded of the insightful discussion we had here several years ago of  Paris 1919 : Six Months that changed the World by Canadian historian Margaret MacMillan  whose approach was markedly different from Kempe's.  At no time  that I recall did Ms. MacMillan inject her personal opinions into the narrative of Paris 1919

It would be nice to continue for a few ays longer.  To make up for my scant posting I could perhaps  best contribute to this discussion by giving you a description of life  in the East zone during the first trip my then fiance and I took in December 1947 and in subsequent visits.  My mother died in 1961, just before Labor Day, and we scrambled to fly out of Washington as soon as we it could be arranged.  We managed it, but solely thanks to a good friend who  worked for Lufthansa. .  I'm afraid my mind was numb to anything  that happened in Berlin. 
I promise to write more tomorrow.



Ella Gibbons

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #305 on: September 30, 2011, 09:35:46 AM »
YES, YES, STRAUDE!

We do want to hear more from you about your visits to the East Zone.  Was it difficult to get passports?  Could tourists go?   Was your mother able to write and receive mail while in the East Zone?  

On reading, one gets the idea that East Berlin was a closed society - a communist section of Germany.  Much as that of the Soviet Union during that period.

And your description of the newspaper (picture, rag) or whatever; that, too, is interesting!  Today, even, the paper continues?  Kempe should know of this, right?  This paper was a source for Kempe's reportage?  There are many references in his notes in German, (or Russian?) which few of us could understand - just look at his Abbreviations on pg.508.

Just the facts, Ma'm, indeed!  And he must have got most of them correct; otherwise there would have been negative reviews and I haven't read any.

It's amazing that we have you as a source who knew firsthand what was happening in Berlin and Germany.  

Do write more when you can.  We'll keep it open.  And for any other people who would like to make comments.


HaroldArnold

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #306 on: September 30, 2011, 10:46:34 AM »
Yes, Yes , of course Straude please do comment further concerning your trip to East Berlin.  I think our personal reaction to events and personal experience situations described in the book are always appropriate.


Also this Discussion will not close today.  JoanP the other day posted that it will be OK to keep it open into next week.  I would like to end it by mid-week but we will require a few days more to properly close it.  I'am, going to be rather heavily involved this weekend with work at the ITC and the Mission Espada but will look in here at least briefly on those days.

Jonathan

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #307 on: September 30, 2011, 11:54:36 AM »
I'm going to miss an interesting part of the discussion, as well as the TV programming on the Berlin Airlift. My bags have been packed for a week, my car is gassed up, I have a small bundle to spend...America here I come.

I've enjoyed the book. The author has given us a good historical account of the crisis and kept us on our toes with his guilt and disappointments, but, reading between the lines, JFK comes out of it looking pretty good.

What an interesting family, those Kennedys. Just what was Bobby's role in all this? His 'negotiating' with Bolshakov seemed like little more than a sideshow. Naturally, he couldn't stay out of it, for fraternal and ambitious reasons. He was always a controlling type. Keener on action than Jack ever was. I've forgotten the page, but, out of the blue it seemed, in the middle of the crisis, Bobby laughingly told his brother that an aide had suggested he run against his brother in the next election.

Kempe certainly kept it interesting. Thanks everyone for the stimulating discussion. Nice to hear you're feeling better, Ella.

HaroldArnold

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #308 on: September 30, 2011, 12:02:14 PM »
JoanP asked a good question, "Is history being revised? Is JFK being put on trial in this book? Or does the author with his (east) Berlin roots have an axe to grind?"

First I don't feel the author has any particular ax to grind in his writing of the book.  Certainly the author's description of the decades of communist slavery experienced by the millions living in west Berlin was an integral part of the subject.  For me I think the author handled it well.  


Second I think the subject required that President Kennedy's handling of the situation be scrutinized by the Author.  Kempe certainly did not shrink from this necessary requirement.  As a result at times particularly initially (June 1961 at Vienna) JFK does not score well.  Later as he matured he did better and the fact that a real shooting WW III was
avoided and that some 30 years later a united democratic Germany emerged seem adequate evidence that he deserves substantial credit for his part leading to the eventual happy ending.

Like Jonathan who has already comment on this point, Let's have comment from everyone on this issue.


HaroldArnold

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #309 on: September 30, 2011, 12:11:29 PM »
Thanking Jonathan for your concluding comment on the book.  Please have as safe and happy holiday.

HaroldArnold

  • Posts: 715
Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #310 on: September 30, 2011, 06:44:37 PM »
Yalta to Berlin by W.R. Smyser

 Click the following for information on the Yalata Conference from the above Book.
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/from-yalta-to-berlin-w-r-smyser/1003986573?ean=9780312233402&itm=12&usri=yalta
This includes a 6 page review of the half dozen big three meetings that concluded in the Yalta conference.  I wish we had found this a month ago. But it is worth reading now.

Note By mistake I seem to have left this message by accident when I revised it to add additional material .  The following message isw what I intended to post here .  Please Ignore this and see the next message.

HaroldArnold

  • Posts: 715
Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #311 on: September 30, 2011, 06:54:17 PM »
Yalta to Berlin by W.R. Smyser


Click the following for information on the Yalata Conference from the above Book.
This includes a 6 page review of the half dozen big three meetings that concluded in the Yalta conference.  I wish we had found this a month ago. But it is worth reading now.
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/from-yalta-to-berlin-w-r-smyser/1003986573?ean=9780312233402&itm=12&usri=yalta

Click the Read More link  near the end to read quite a bit of Yalta Conference details.

straudetwo

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  • Massachusetts
Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #312 on: September 30, 2011, 08:31:24 PM »
Here I am, as promised.

If I may, I'd like to begin with a link about Allied-occupied Germany After WW II, and I direct your attention especially to the map. The red block  represents the Soviet zone of occupation, obviously the largest of the four zones of occupation, all identified with the respective rectangular flag.  Inside the Soviet block the small dot is Berlin with its four sectors.   I believe this map clearly shows the precarious, vulnerable location of the city of Berlin in the middle of miles of Soviet-occupied land. No wonder the Soviets dreamed of incorporating Berlin !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied-occupied_Germany

Long before the wall was erected in Berlin, the Soviets shut off all rail and motor traffic and access by building a fortified border with ever more sophisticated mine-fields, no-man's land sections,  and watch towers to make crossing impossible in both directions.  Railway and motor connections existed only from specific crossing points up within the border. Trains from the west stopped in the designated station,  let out the passengers, who then had to wait for the east German train, at least in the beginning.  That happened to us because, you see, the line had only one track left.  The rails of the other track had been removed by the Soviets ...
Ella,  I never visited Berlin;  I was born in the Rhineland and we didn't have relatives or friends that far east in the country.  We only visited in the East Zone proper,  under normal conditions just a few hours from Frankfurt. Why did we goo there ?  My mother was aghast.
She said it was dangerous. It was. I would rather not have gone but there was nothing to keep my fiance back because only a few weeks earlier had he finally heard through the International Red Cross that his family had been reunited in a small village not far from the city of Weimar (known from the 'Weimar Republic",  famous because of the literary giants Goethe and Schiller.  But we didn't go there on that first visit, we stayed in that village in a little abode that was more a shed than a house.

I'll be right back.

straudetwo

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #313 on: September 30, 2011, 11:45:58 PM »
Continued

There was no tourism in 1947.  There wasn't anything to be seen, whole sections of towns both in the west and the east had been bombed, and a  large-'scale removal of mountains of rubble had not been started.  People  were hungry. Ration cards were still in use but had actually become useless because there were no foodstuffs, no clothing items, no shoes to be had. The Reichsmark no longer carried any value. But anything and everything was available  to those who had cartons of  American cigarettes. Some people received CARE packages from relatives or friends in America with real coffee and Crisco, which as highly prized.

In 1947 and all along later years, people who wanted to enter East Germany, the East Zone, needed an invitation.  And then a visa.  As soon as that was available,  the traveler could travel. On arrival on the other side, the first trip was to the local police where the visa was put in our German passports. We also had to buy East German money, a specific sum for each day we intended to stay. Before returning to the west, we had to go to the police again and surrender any money we had not used - but it was just as well because it was not valid in the west.

Remembering those dark days of that first visit is extremely painful.  In my mind's eye I still see the drab houses, the hopelessness in the faces of the women under their black kerchiefs.  No, I could not let my mother know that we had arrived or when we would be back.  She had no phone. I was flooded with relief as soon as we were back on the west German train. 

In East Germany there was no democracy Thanks to Mr. Ulbricht, the populace was relentlessly bullied all these years with a harshness that even Stalin  had not insisted on. The people had merely traded in one authoritarian regime for another, first the Nazis, then the Communists.
How could they be ready for democracy when reunification came ? They didn't even know what it was.  And Ella, , in answer to an earlier question of yours: No,   many west Germans were not exactly bowled over by reunification.  But  by now the standard of living is certainly higher for East Germans. They are free to travel wherever they want;  under the Communist regime they could travel only to East bloc member nations.

To be continued, if you like


Ella Gibbons

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #314 on: October 01, 2011, 01:37:04 PM »
NO, STRAUDE, it is up to you if you want to continue.  If it is painful to remember, don't!!!!  Particularly typing it all in, but we do appreciate it so much.

You had the invitiation and the visa.  And you had to register at the police station, what a system  Seems almost as bad as facism and the Nazis.  Here is a little quote from a site on the Internet about the currency problem:

"Another big problem were the two currencies in Germany and especially in Berlin. West German DM had been exchanged into East German DM at a rate of 1:4 (1 DM West = 4 DM Ost) in West Berlin.
People with West German DM could get goods very cheaply in the Eastern part of Berlin."
 
What a change the years have brought!  Thank goodness for that.  I just heard someone on BookTV talk about the Berln airlift and Tempelhof Airport, how dangerous it was to land the planes there.  But the pilots were all volunteers and loved doing it, seeing the grateful people.  And we saved a few from starvation and we had been bombing them just a year before.

We've read quite a bit about Ulbricht in the book and his cruelty.  If you have the book you can read many instances of his demands on Krushchev and Ulbricht's fears of losing his power in East Germany. 

Thanks again, Straude!

mabel1015j

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #315 on: October 01, 2011, 01:42:53 PM »
Very interesting Strude.

I remember reading that the Berlin Airlift also took people out of Berlin......if i remember correctly, the number was about 63,000. i wasn't aware that that was hsppening also.

Jean

HaroldArnold

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #316 on: October 01, 2011, 06:33:50 PM »
Straude thank you for your posting on your 1947 experience entering East Germany.  Any additional comment you may care to make will be welcome.  But also if you care not to post more that is OK too. It is up to you. 

HaroldArnold

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #317 on: October 02, 2011, 10:33:01 AM »
I think we still have some concluding loose ends before closing from the Author’s concluding “Afterschock” chapter.    More specifically : 

Do you agree with JFK negative assessment of his own administrations record when he replied to Detroit News Journalist Ellie Abel’s request for a help in writing a book evaluating his ist term with “Why would anyone want to write a book about an administration that had nothing to show for itself but a string of disasters?”

Or do you agree with the author Frederic Kempe who wrote on p486, “Given the Cold War’s happy ending, it has been tempting for historians to give Kennedy more credit than he deserves” in avoiding war and the eventual reunification of Germany?

straudetwo

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #318 on: October 02, 2011, 10:29:24 PM »
Ella and Harold
To continue with the rest.

The memory of that first visit in East Germany in 1947 is  painful because of the surrounding personal circumstances of my husband's parents,
refugees from the Sudetenland, expelled by Czechoslovakia in 1944 within hours with only the clothes on their backs and what they could carry.
Ten million refugees fled westward from the advancing Russians, and there are countless such heart-breaking stories. But I did not want to narrate only this personal story but report instead on the general, overall picture, and make clear in particular that a whole large region was like a a prison, its border sealed, and Berlin an relatively small island in that red sea.

Between 1947 and 1954, when we left for America, my husband took a number of trips into the Soviet zone,  mainly food, and fruit - the grandchildren had never seen bananas! We did not have a car and he used the train.

General Lucius Clay, the father of the Berlin airlift,  was the military Governor of the American zone from 1947 - 1949.  Doubtless he realized that the  Reichsmark had become obsolete. In any event, in June of 1948 a currency reform was announced to take effect a week later.  The Reichsmark was supplanted by the Deutsche Mark (also called D-Mark). Every German received 50 D-marks. It was the 26th of June 1948 , my wedding day, how could I ever forget ?  My sister came from Stuttgart with her 50 D-marks.  It was an auspicious beginning for West Germany and led to the "German economic miracle".  In 2002, The D-Mark in turn was replaced  the Euro (€).

I told my dear old friend from school about this discussion, and she emailed today. This is what she said in her e-mail :

"I too was in the DDR twice with the car.  It was horrible ! Extensive controls at the border, endless waiting, endured in silence. We were afraid.   We could stay only in specifically assigned hotels and had to pay an enormous sum ahead of time,  in western currency One had to suffer the arrogance of the Volks-polizei (Volk policemn) and didn't dare open our mouth lest a wrong answer might land one in jail.  Once safely back on West German soil, one breathed easier.  I want to forget these dreadful times, and I also don't want to recall the Nazi era either.  It was horrendous!"

She did not mention the isa and did not say when these visits took place.  I believe it must have been in the mid-fifties.  For my part,  I am not sure forgetting is as easy as that.  Certain things probably should not be forgotten, and some cannot be  forgotten. In my case it would be the loss of our home in 1942 in the bombing of a suburb of Mannheim.  However,  that too is a  separate, personal story and does not belong here.

I went to East Germany twice more, once with my husband in the early seventies,  and again in 1977 with my children. My daughter was 28 and in graduate school in S.F., my son 15. By then the East German government had "refined" the m.o. of border-crossing with more rules.  We were not allowed to carry any West German papers or magazines.  The second track had been restored, but checking the papers of every passenger in every compartment took well over an hour,  while East German soldiers with German shepherds patrolled on the platform.
We encountered one of those "arrogant" young policemen who peppered my daughter and son with loaded questions.  (On the return trip to the West, the train stopped  again for an even  more thorough control and longer time. Eventually we heard in our carriage muffled voices and the loud wailing of a woman.  We waited in anxious silence. When the policeman entered our compartment, his face was a mask. No one would have dared to say anything. He asked whether we were carrying any East German money. Knowing it is forbidden, we had left it with the family. And the first trip was again to the Police Station to sign in, show the visa, pay the price per head, per day, ahead.  To sign out with the police was the same.

The lot of the family had visibly improved - they had moved into town and were granted an apartment  when one became available at long last. The food supply was not steady. Daily shopping was necessary because  only whatever was available would be on the dining table. There were always  long queues and shoppers would automatically line up without knowing just what was being offered, or whether there was anything left when one's turn came. My eldest niece became a nurse and was grateful for the uniforms I sent her. Since it was hard to convert the metric measures into inches,  the jeans for the boys were not always the right fit, and the same was true for shoes. But conditions have improved beyond anyoe's expectations  when the border opened at last.

My friend reminded me that tomorrow,  on October 3ed, Germany celebrates The Day of Unity, a national holiday. She added
"So far,  a  full, complete union has not yet been accomplished."  I would like nothing better than visit just once more to see for myself, but  alas - my traveling days are over.  

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #319 on: October 03, 2011, 09:32:07 AM »
STRAUDE!  Thank you again for the post and the memories.  I am so interested in your story, but, particularly, this statement made by your friend puzzles me:

So far,  a  full, complete union has not yet been accomplished."

Why?

I would think most matters would be settled now.  Am also wondering if Germany's neighbors, France, Belgium, etc., still look anxiously at what is happening in Germany or are they content to believe that all is well and no further problems may arise?  After two wars with Germany, I would still suspect.  Probably with little reason to, however.

Do you think the EU is working?

It's great to have you here.  Thanks again so very much!