Author Topic: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online  (Read 57284 times)

HaroldArnold

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #320 on: October 03, 2011, 11:35:38 AM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.


Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe


 
JOIN US in September as we renew our history, a more accurate history, of events that most of us remember very well.   Historians are now able to not only do research into fresh new documents, but personal interviews have uncovered a wealth of information that is stunning to read.  A young, untested, wealthy,  U.S. president meets a Russian premier, son of a coal miner; Kennedy and Khrushchev, opposite in every way, yet holding the world in their hands.  It's drama at the very best.

President Kennedy called the year a "string of disasters;" Kempe called it one of the worst of any modern presidency. 

The book is divided into three parts:  THE PLAYERS, THE GATHERING STORM AND THE SHOWDOWN.
Fascinating history, dramatic with new research into documents never before explored.

The Players

         

 Left to right: Krushchev - Ulbricht - Kennedy - Adenauer





Harold:
Straudy again your first hand reporting on East Germany behind the Iron Curtain are most interesting.  Thank you for sharing them with us.  Your last paragraph stands out when you wrote, "So far,  a  full, complete union has not yet been accomplished."  

I knew that just like in the U.S some areas lag behind others so far as standard of living is concern.  Yet regarding governance they enjoy the same standing as all others sectors.  In the matter of the unification of East Germany into a single German state the initial difference was staggering, and I would not be surprised if the East has not yet caught up with the west.  But, this is because of resource differences and other geographic differences, it may never catch up in this way.  Yet surely there is political parity  with educational opportunities and free movement to the west for better employment opportunity.  This is certainly the pattern in the U.S. and even in Western Europe.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #321 on: October 03, 2011, 06:06:07 PM »
HAROLD;  To finish up and to answer your last question, I think it is hard for most Americans to judge JFK and his presidency with any degree of positive/negative charges.  Knowing as we do that the Kennedy's eldest son died in WWII and the next two oldest were assassinated in this country how could we be anything but sympathetic!

The conclusion of the war and the conferences of the allies are most interesting and I'm sure are studied by historians with, we hope, lessons to be learned for the future. 

However, as we have said there will probably never be another war such as that one without another nuclear weapon being used (we set the example for all time)  and God help us all! 


mabel1015j

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #322 on: October 03, 2011, 06:44:47 PM »
Ella and Harold - thanks so much for leading this discussion, your guidance of us thru it and your questions and additional information. Even tho i didn't get the book in time to read w/ you, i still enjoyed it.

Jean

HaroldArnold

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #323 on: October 05, 2011, 06:42:52 PM »
I  would like to conclude this discussion with my thoughts regarding  the JFK presidency that are substantially different from our authors rather negative view of his administration.  Though he like most of his successors seemed quite unprepared for the detailed routines of the office, he seemed to mature rapidly and by the end of the summer I think he was doing as well as could be expected in doggedly hanging on to the Western Power's Berlin enclave.  He did this despite Khrushchev's equally dogged determination to make all of Berlin communist.  This policy certainly risked a shooting or even atomic war with Russia, but as time has shown, it was not an undo risk as some might have judged.  And also as history has shown in the end Berlin and all of East Germany became part of a united democratic Germany.  Yes, even the Soviet Union devolved into a new Russia and a half dozen other democratic (?) capitalist republics.  I might stop short of judging JFK among our greatest Presidents, but with the exception of maybe 2 or 3 of his successors I think he scores quite high over most of these.





HaroldArnold

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #324 on: October 05, 2011, 06:51:19 PM »
Ella I think this has been a fine discussion.  I thank all of you who have participated.  Particularly I thank Ella for finding this book and recognizing it as a discussion prospect.  Please, everybody stayed tuned to our general discussion boards for new discussion prospects.  I agree with comments here that a good book on the Yalta Conference would make a good one.  Also maybe there are other Cold War discussion prospects.  maybe a biography of LBj?  No the best one is 3 volume and much too long.  But how about Ronald Reagan?

If Ella concurs I think it is time to move this one to the archives.

PatH

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #325 on: October 05, 2011, 09:23:11 PM »
Let me add my thanks before it's too late.  I had to drop out before the end for personal reasons, but continued to read the posts, and will finish the last 2 chapters when I can.

Ella and Harold, this was a stellar discussion.  You chose an interesting book on a topic I care about.  The ideas brought up were stimulating , and we exchanged some good thoughts.  Traude, thank you for your valuable input, which added a lot.

A really good experience.

straudetwo

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  • Massachusetts
Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #326 on: October 06, 2011, 12:38:32 AM »
Ella and Harold,

My friend Dorothee, to whom I conveyed your question "why?", Ella, has not written back,  but I would like, and feel duty-bound, to respond.

As I mentioned earlier, when unification came, suddenly and without advance fanfare, many Germans both in the West and in the East were surprised.  And the fact is that many prosperous West Germans were not very welcoming to the idea or the reality, skeptical if or how  their impecunious, down-trodden brothers and sisters in the East  would adjust.

Like the Nazi leaders had done, the Communists ruled East Germany with an iron fist, keeping people in line through fear and intimidation. The state was a hot bed of espionage.  Members of the intelligentsia were well advised to join the one remaining party, the Communists,  and everybody was always under surveillance;  informants were feared because on their say-so alone people could be thrown in jail.   It is not too much to say that East and West were two different worlds. There was no democracy in the East and the name GDR = German Democratic Republic was ludicrous.

Of course, after four decades of oppression and suppression,  it could not be expected that the German reunification would be realized over night.  But Germans are known for their thoroughness, and the Government has achieved a great deal in the last decade. Berlin is once again the  capital and no longer in exile in Bonn (which was always a sleepy  university town).

Ella, one last answer : Germany is considered the strongest nation in the European Union and no longer feared as a war monger. Not all nations have adopted the Euro - Britain still has the pound and Switzerland the Swiss franc. The union has weak members, notably Greece, we hear, Spain and possibly Portugal.  It is gratifying that the relationship between France an Germany, equal partners in the EU, has been normalized after decades of rivalry and fighting between two arch-enemies over the Rhineland and Alsace-Lorraine.
 
Incidentally, after World War I, and as stipulated in the Treaty of Versailles,  the Rhineland was occupied by French and Moroccan troops continuously until 1931.  I remember the Moroccans patrolling the streets  in  their blue uniform and a red fez.  

Thank you, Ella and Harold, and all the participants for another enlightening discussion.
Traude

JoanP

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  • Arlington, VA
Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #327 on: October 06, 2011, 07:48:28 AM »
We're back from grandson's birthday celebration - just in time to thank eveyone for this enlightening  discussion.  When we started, I had a number of preconceived notions and convictions concerning  JFK's presidency.  Kempe confirmed some of them, but listening to the comments here, I feel my understanding of the man and his approach to the office of President, has evolved.  And Traude, thank you so much for sharing personal memories of Berlin and now, the unification of Germany...the author stopped short of taking us there.  

Thank you so much, Ella and Harold - and all who contributed to this discussion!  A remarkable experience, it was.

HaroldArnold

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Re: Berlin 1961 by Frederick Kempe ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #328 on: October 07, 2011, 11:18:28 AM »
Traude, you have really made the ending of our of our discussion with your first hand account of life in the East German Russian administered zone and its final conclusion 1989 - 1991 with the fall of the Wall and the unification with the West in an united German truly democratic republic.   I think we can say that not only the Germans but the entire World was surprised how almost automatically the process  progressed to conclusion, not just Germany but also eastern Europe and Russia itself in less than 3 short years.