Nominations for our next Classics books discussion

[roshanarose]

We've completed Homer's Odyssey and now are voting for the next Classics book that we'll read together.

 

VOTE NOW UNTIL AUGUST 26! click the link to vote.

Vote in the Survey in the link ABOVE for your top three choices of the following titles:

The Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans, (selections) by Plutarch (c.46 A.D.- c. 120 A.D.)

"The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius"

"Antigone" by Sophocles

Euripides plays: "Iphigenia in Tauris" (romantic comedy)and "Alcestis" (a tragicomedy) by Euripedes

"The Twelve Caesars" by Suetonius"
Lysistrata" by Aristophanes"

Metamorphoses (The Golden Ass)" by Apuleius (c. 155 A.D.)

"Poetics" by Aristotle (384-322 B.C.)

"Aesop's Fables" by Aesop (c. 550 B.C.)

"On Old Age" by Cicero (106-43 B.C.)

"Metamorphoses" by Ovid (43 B.C.-18 A.D.)

"The Persian Book of Kings" by Shahnamek

"Epic of Gilgamesh"

"The Orestia" by Aeschylus

Babi - There is a great poem by Cavafy about Themistokles and Artaxerxes called "The Satrapy" .  I have already posted it in Barb's Poetry discussion board, but would be happy to post it again..  

I am very interested in the First and Second Triumvirate.  Is there a source which covers both?

[Dana]

I don't mind what we do really, but at this point I would actually prefer to read The Orestia by Aeschylus, translated by Fagles, which is described as "the only extant complete Greek trilogy."  It consists of Agamemnon which deals with his return and death at the hands of Klytaemnestra, the Eumenides which describe her punishment--death at the hands of Orestes her son, and the Libation Bearers which deals with Orestes trial for the crime of matricide by Athena.

I think this fits in nicely with what we have just learned about these characters from the Odyssey, and furthers our discussion of what is tragedy.  We could follow it up with a reading of Hamlet which has a similar theme I guess in some ways, and it would be nice to compare Greek tragedy with the Elizabeathan version.

Also the Fagles translation is supposed to be super.

[JoanK]

You are right. My confusion!

[ginny]

I am very interested in the First and Second Triumvirate.  Is there a source which covers both?

This is a good question, RoshanaRose. So far as I know it's bits and pieces. I would think Plutarch, Dio Cassius, Suetonius for gossip, a little in Tacitus, the occasional Cicero letter, Appian, until the death of Sextus Pompeius, Paterculus, and bits and pieces from a few others, perhaps incidental, concealed in other works, like Apuleius, etc.

I thought this was intriguing, Babi:  After all, we do know quite a bit about Anthony and Pompey.


 Do we?

I found myself thinking what IF we took the list soon to appear in the heading and made our own private list which nobody would see and listed what we DO know about everybody on it? I fear mine would have gaping holes and it's possible that what we DO know, or think we know,  may in fact not be quite what was the actuality.   I find that idea quite exciting actually.

(I guess I enjoy listing what I don't know hahahaa) I mean I've got some gaping holes. 

I liked Dana's idea of building on what we just read. The most obvious successor is the Aeneid, but I think we'd do a lot better to wait on that and all tackle Book I sometime during the year to see if we really want to embark on it. That way, if we get seasick next summer, we'll be able to bail with dignity,  lifeboats planned at the ready. hahahaa

[Babi]

 "The Satrapy" was about Themistocles and Artaxerxes?  I need to read that again, ROSE.

 Sounds heavy, DANA. Maybe too much tragedy one after the other. A leavening of lighthearted
comedy would be nice.

I thought this was intriguing, Babi:  After all, we do know quite a bit about Anthony and Pompey.  Do we?

 Well, comparatively speaking, anyway, GINNY. Obviously we can't know as much about them as
we do about more contemporary figures. Anthony and Pompey both received quite a bit of historical attention. I would blush to list what I actually know about most of these classical figures. I can only hope I've forgotten more than I now know!   

[Babi]

 Oh, ROSE, I almost forgot.  I think you'd like Michael Grant's "Readings in the Classical Historians".  It includes readings from different historians on Caesar, Pompey and Crassus
of the First Triumvirate and Octavian, Anthony and Lepidus from the second.

[JoanK]

I have that book too, and enjoy it.

[JoanK]

Rose: is "The Satrapy" long enough that it would need a discussion, or short, that you could post here?

[bookad]

Babi-you're intriguing me with this Plutarch guy--he has been mentioned a number of times; not sure how i feel about plays, how do they mesh with reading them mind you having said that did read a play... amazing about an ageing woman going into a 'home' and the other players were herself at ages 30, 40, 50, and 60--was 'waiting for godot' a play?--guess whatever is picked will just look at it as 'educating me'

Dana;--also like 'building on what we know'---which for me as a newcomer to the classics, feels like a good idea, as still feel quite at a loss as what the classics comprise and never had a course on it/them before this group

Deb  

[roshanarose]

Babi and Ginny - Thanks for the information about the Triumvirates.

JoanK - Cavafy's poem is not very long, but would be appreciated more if you know about Themistokles' "grand and noble acts" and finally his ostracism from Athens. Plutarch writes about Themistokles.

www.livius.org/th/themistocles/themistocles.html

The Satrapy

Too bad that, cut out as you are
for grand and noble acts,
this unfair fate of yours
never helps you out, always prevents your success;
that cheap habits get in your way,
pettiness, or indifference.
And how terrible the day you give in
(the day you let go and give in)
and take the road for Susa
to find King Artaxerxes,
who, propitiously, gives you a place at his court
and offers you satrapies and things like that -
things you don't want at all,
though, in despair, you accept them just the same.
You're longing for something else, aching for other things:
praise from the Demos and the Sophists,
that hard-won, that priceless acclaim -
the Agora, the Theatre, the Crowns of Laurel.
You can't get any of these from Artaxerxes,
you'll never find any of these in the satrapy,
and without them, what kind of life will you live?

Constantine P. Cavafy

The Satrapy has special significance for me as it was the first Modern Greek poem I translated from English into Greek.  The translation above is very similar to mine except for a couple of lines.  Cavafy also helped me during my Greek exams in a way that I still find difficult to believe.  Cavafy includes a great deal of the life and soul of Themistokles in this relatively short poem.

[JudeS]

Was the Aenid cut by mistake or on purpose? I hope it was a mistake.

If we are looking for poetry of the period from what I've heard the poems of Sapho are supposed to be truly great.

[PatH]

Was the Aenid cut by mistake or on purpose? I hope it was a mistake.

It isn't being cut, but if we discuss it the discussion should be led by Ginny--she's the expert--and she's not available this fall.  (Nine Latin classes plus grandchild minding) No point in voting for something that couldn't be discussed yet.  It will be back in the running when Ginny's free.

[Frybabe]

Cavafy includes a great deal of the life and soul of Themistokles in this relatively short poem.

As I read it, I could feel the emotion in the poem. Thanks for posting it, Roshanarose. I have very little exposure to Greek poetry. (except for Homer)

[JoanK]

This is our list. Details on voting soon. (It started to be in chronological order, but got mixed up)

The Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans, (selections) Plutarch (c.46 A.D.- c. 120 A.D.)

The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius

"Antigone" Sophocles

Euripides plays:  Iphigenia in Tauris (romantic comedy) and Alcestis (a tragicomedy)

The Orestia by Aeschylus 

"The Twelve Caesars"  Suetonius

"Lysistrata" Aristophanes

"The Golden Ass" - Lucius  Apuleius 

"Metamorphoses (The Golden Ass)"  Apuleius (c. 155 A.D.) 
 
"Poetics" Aristotle  (384-322 B.C.)

"Aesop's Fables" Aesop  (c. 550 B.C.)

"On Old Age" Cicero  (106-43 B.C.)

"Metamorphoses" Ovid  (43 B.C.- 18 A.D.)

"The Persian Book of Kings" Shahnamek

Epic of Gilgamesh

[JoanK]

I really like The Satrapy. It's an interesting and poignant story.

[roshanarose]

bookad - Many of us are unfamiliar with the works put forward here.  We may have heard of Antigone, the Oresteia, Aristophanes, Gilgamesh et al, but we haven't necessarily read them. Just go with the flow and enjoy what you/we learn. 

I keep thinking about that play that you mentioned about the woman who finds herself in an elderly persons' home where she "meets" herself at different times in her life.  Is there such a play?  I would enjoy reading it.

Glad you enjoyed Cavafy.  He is a modern poet but he and Seferis often base their themes on events in antiquity.  Cavafy's Modern Greek is flawless and quite easy to read for the beginner.

[bookad]

Roshanarose-the play was called 'Albertine', by Michael Tremblay & translated by Linda Gaboriau

Talonbooks, Vancouver, British Columbia
97808892262

it made me think of Gail Sheeney ??
                her book called 'Passages', that came out in the 1970s

Deb

[JoanK]

DEB: that sounds very interesting.

The Classics ibn this sense usually refers to writings of the ancient Greeks and Romans. Because these writings jhave been so influential on the writers in the European tradition that followed, I have always felt a lack because I haven't read them. And I think many of us feel the same. Here is a chance to read them with friends, with no tests, or no feeling that we "ought" to like them if we don't.

Sometimes I feel that many of our High School and college literature classes scare us away from the classics rather than introducing us to them. We must be dumb if we don't understand "Beowolf", right? WRONG! We can read things together, with no one to tell us what to understad or feel!

[JoanR]

Although I nominated Antigone, I've been doing some more thinking.  We've just finished a long and highly dramatic epic so perhaps something a bit more sober might be in order!  The Plutarch  "Lives.." would be great - I am totally unfamiliar with them and would like very much to make their acquaintance.  My library has 2 different vols. of them and I believe there are 4. Is there a whole one-vol. edition or are we to choose one of them?  Or are we talking about the 'lives" or the "histories"?  Seems to be a lot out there!!

Maybe after sobering up on Plutarch, we can go back to high tragedy!

[JoanK]

JOAN: If Plutarch is chosen, we'll rely on Ginny to pick selections for us.

[JoanK]

TIME TO VOTE!

Go into the web site below and vote for THREE. If there's no clear winner, we'll do a runoff later.


http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CRGVGSH

[JoanK]

The link is in the heading as well.

[Babi]

Something that always amused me about the study of literature, JOANK, was
hearing of some professor expounding the 'deeper meanings', and discovering
the author never even thought of such a thing.
 Oops. I didn't realize there were other, different 'Lives' by Plutarch. I
just have the one volume and that was all there was. What if we wind up
with different volumes of different lives?
  Took the survey, and wound up not voting for one of the books I suggested.
Hey, I liked some of the others better, okay? 

[JoanK]

BABI: I had a good illustratiion of that. When we discussed "The Jane Austen Book Club", the author, Karen Joy Fowler, joined us. Smarty me, who has taken my share of lit classes, asked her at one point if the dog in such-and-such a scene was symbolic of ..... "Oh", she said, "I never thoughht of that. That's a good idea! Of course it is."

I still laugh when I think of that. I'll never take these deeper meanings quite as seriously again.

[bookad]

would an idea be to pick something from the i.e.
'Gutenberg' site so all could be on the same page so
to speak!!....and there would be no problem for anyone getting
a source book from a library which would be problems
trying to hold onto the book if it were to develop
the read took as many months as 'the odyssey'
Deb

[JudeS]

After seeing the list I researched Ovid's Metamorpheses and found the following:

Ovid pokes fun at the Epic genre.
The Metamorphesis consists of stories connected by the theme of Metamorphisis.

Augustine exiled Ovid because of his "lecherous poetry".

Ovid is the best source of classical myth.

Ovid was the major inspiration for Dante, Chaucer, Shakespeare and Milton.

Seems to me that he is a mighty interesting guy and  has my vote.

[Babi]

 I think it's Ovid's reputation for 'lecherous poetry'  that has had me wary of
reading him.  But perhaps he has been maligned.  Or perhaps it was just another
time.  I remember the first time I read, cautiously, Boccaccacio's supposedly very
naughty work.  I had to laugh. By today's standards those people were downright
modest and circumspect.
  Did the Odyssey really take us months?  I was so engrossed I didn't even notice.

[JoanK]

BABI: what a nice thing to say. Yes, we've been traveling for awhile (although not ten years, like Odysseus).

[bookad]

the odyssey from mid feb to roughly the end of july!!!!
Deb

[JoanK]

Time flies when you're having fun!

[bookad]

it sure does

[JoanR]

I have Michael Dirda's "Classics for Pleasure" - a great introducton to a lot of great reading.
 He says that "if one had to pick the most influential poem in world history, a good choice would be Ovid's Metamorphoses.  For 2000 years it has provided subjects for painting and opera, inspired poets and playwrights ...."

Of  Plutarch's "Lives"  ... can make a strong claim to be the most intertaining book in all antiquity...
Also: " For centuries Plutarch graced every gentleman's library as a bible of moral lessons and noble examples".

[roshanarose]

JoanR - Plutarch is very easy to read, I agree.  I went to my library yesterday to pick up "The Rug Maker of Mazar i Sharif" and looked up their catalogue for Plutarch.  I was hoping to find one book containing all four of his "Lives".  I was not successful.   

Suetonius is even easier to read.  The Twelve Caesars reads a lot like "The Bold and the Beautiful" with similar themes 

[Babi]

 "The Bold and the Beautiful"??  But how could anyone take it seriously?
Actually,  Michael Grant's analysis of Suetonius says that he is a biographer who
did not trouble to flatter or overpraise his subjects.  He served in posts where
he had good opportunity to observe and to know what was going on.  For example, he served for a time on the staff of Pliny, the younger, who spoke well
of him.

[roshanarose]

Babi - The Bold and the Beautiful is a classic, isn't it? 

[Babi]

 If you say so, MIPPY. 

[ginny]

The vote seems to be going really well, and it occurred to me this morning, thinking about what Deb said about texts online the Gutenberg, etc., and the thoughts here on how many books of Plutarch there are, and on Suetonius and some of the  Greek plays nominated, that most of the writings of the Greeks and Romans we are considering are online.

We're somewhat talking here about apples and oranges as far as a reading experience goes. You'd not try or even consider to try  reading Plutarch like you would Suetonius: you could no more do that than read an encyclopedia for a book selection of the month.

You could read Suetnoius straight thru, you would not try that with Plutarch. Should something like Plutarch win, you'd all want to decide here who or which excerpt you wanted to read about.

Thank you for those quotes, JoanR, he's right.  

It occurred to me that since most of these works are online,  we might put here a couple of excerpts from whatever we nominate so people can see the style?

Since Suetonius would be read from the beginning, as a book, here's his opening of the Divine Julius: (Julius Caesar)

Suetonius, The Lives of the Caesars

The Life of Julius Caesar

1 In the course of his sixteenth year1 he lost his father. In the next consulate, having previously been nominated priest of Jupiter,2 he broke his engagement with Cossutia, a lady of only equestrian rank, but very wealthy, who had been betrothed to him before he assumed the gown of manhood, and married Cornelia, daughter of that Cinna who was four times consul, by whom he afterwards had a daughter Julia; and the dictator Sulla could by no means force him to put away his wife. 2 Therefore besides being punished by the loss of his priesthood,a his wife's dowry, and his family inheritances, Caesar was held to be one of the opposite party. He was accordingly forced to go into hiding, and though suffering from a severe attack of quartan ague, to change from one covert to another almost every night, and save himself from Sulla's detectives by bribes. But at last, through the good offices of the Vestal virgins and of his near kinsmen, Mamercus Aemilius and Aurelius Cotta, he obtained forgiveness. 3 Everyone knows that when Sulla had long p5held out against the most devoted and eminent men of his party who interceded for Caesar, and they obstinately persisted, he at last gave way and cried, either by divine inspiration or a shrewd forecast: "Have your way and take him; only bear in mind that the man you are so eager to save will one day deal the death blow to the cause of the aristocracy, which you have joined with me in upholding; for in this Caesar there is more than one Marius."

Since we would not be reading Plutarch as a book here's Plutarch on an early event in Julius Caesar's life:  Caesar and the Pirates:


....and then, on his voyage back,6 was captured, near the island Pharmacusa, by pirates, who already at that time controlled the sea with large armaments and countless small vessels.

2 To begin with, then, when the pirates demanded twenty talents for his ransom, he laughed at them for not knowing who their captive was, and of his own accord agreed to give them fifty. 2 In the next place, after he had sent various followers to various cities to procure the money and was left with one friend and two attendants among Cilicians, most murderous of men, he held them in such disdain that whenever he lay down to sleep he would send and order them to stop talking. 3 For eight and thirty days, as if the men were not his watchers, but his royal body-guard, he shared in their sports and exercises with great unconcern. 4 He also wrote poems and sundry speeches which he read aloud to them, and those who did not admire these he would call to their faces illiterate Barbarians, and often laughingly threatened to hang them all. The pirates were delighted at this, and attributed his boldness of speech to a certain simplicity and boyish mirth. 5 But after his ransom had come from Miletus and he had paid it and was set free, he immediately manned vessels and put to sea from the harbour p447of Miletus against the robbers. He caught them, too, still lying at anchor off the island, and got most of them into his power. 6 Their money he made his booty, but the men themselves he lodged in the prison at Pergamum, and then went in person to Junius, the governor of Asia, on the ground that it belonged to him, as praetor of the province, to punish the captives. 7 But since the praetor cast longing eyes on their money, which was no small sum, and kept saying that he would consider the case of the captives at his leisure, Caesar left him to his own devices, went to Pergamum, took the robbers out of prison, and crucified them all, just as he had often warned them on the island that he would do, when they thought he was joking.

If I were choosing passages from Plutarch that is not one I'd choose but it does show you the style of both men. If we have any kind of run off we'll want all the examples we'd actually be reading given as part of the ballot, I am thinking?

What do you think?.

[JoanK]

By pure chance, I caught a TV program on one of the local Community college stations, where they aired scenes from Antigone. It blew me away!

[roshanarose]

Ah!  For those interested in Plutarch there is collection of his books in one volume, and it is available from Amazon, Google etc in the US. 

As Ginny says, one would hardly be likely to sit down and read it from cover to cover, but it would be great for reference.

PLUTARCH: Lives of the noble Grecians and Romans (Complete and Unabridged) by Plutarch, Arthur Hugh Clough
PLUTARCH: Lives of the noble Grecians and Romans (Complete and Unabridged)  0.00  ·  rating details  ·  0 ratings  ·  0 reviews
The complete text of Clough's edition of Plutarch's Lives; containing fifty lives and eighteen comparisons.
Hardcover, 1008 pages
Published December 1st 2010 by Benediction Books
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ISBN1849025797 (ISBN13: 9781849025799)
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[JudeS]

We each meander down the corridors of our own interests. I will present a wee bit of Ovid, the book I borrowed from a friend.
It is a 1963 edition translated by Rolfe Humphries.
These intros we are presenting are like Tapas_abite of this ,  a taste of that and before you know it-a fine feast.

The Creation

Before the ocean was, or earth, or heaven,
Nature was all alike, all rude and lumpy matter,
Nothing but bulk, inert, in whose confusion
Discordant atoms warred: there was no sun
To light the universe; there was no moon
With slender silver crescents filling slowly.

In general this is an easy read-self explanatory but filled with ideas we can compare to other sources.
Very poetic.