Author Topic: Nominations for our next Classics books discussion (Read 92853 times)

Cathy B · « **Reply #200 on:** February 16, 2012, 05:52:06 PM »

I would like to recommend the following: "An Essay On the Art of Ingeniously Tormenting" by Jane Collier(1753) (160 pp), and Katharine Craik: Wickedly funny and bitingly satirical, The Art is a comedy of manners that gives insights into eighteenth-century behavior as well as the timeless art of emotional abuse. It is also an advice book, a handbook of anti-etiquette, and a comedy of manners. Collier describes methods for "teasing and mortifying" one's intimates and acquaintances in a variety of social situations. Written primarily for wives, mothers, and the mistresses of servants, it suggests the difficulties women experienced exerting their influence in private and public life--and the ways they got round them. As such, The Art provides a fascinating glimpse into eighteenth-century daily life; perhaps the first extended non-fiction prose satire written by an English woman, Jane Collier's An Essay on the Art of Ingeniously Tormenting (1753) is a wickedly satirical send-up of eighteenth-century advice manuals and educational tracts. It takes the form of a mock advice manual in which the speaker instructs her readers in the arts of tormenting, offering advice on how to torment servants, humble companions and spouses, and on how to bring one's children up to be a torment to others. The work's satirical style, which focuses on the different kinds of power that individuals exercise over one another, follows in the footsteps of Jonathan Swift and paves the way for Jane Austen. The Broadview edition uses the first edition, the only edition published during the author's lifetime. The appendices include excerpts from texts that influenced the essay (by Sarah Fielding, Jonathan Swift, Francis Coventry); excerpts from later texts that were influenced by it (by Maria Edgeworth, Frances Burney, Jane Austen); and relevant writings on education and conduct (by John Locke, George Savile, Dr. John Gregory); check the paperback edition on Amazon...very reasonable, and some used editions at quite reasonable prices.

JudeS · « **Reply #201 on:** February 16, 2012, 08:38:52 PM »

In the book The Greek Way by Edith Hamilton she compares Aeschylus with Gilbert of Gilbert and Sullivan fame.
She claims that both satirist give us the deepest insight into the real life of their times.
If a play then how about "The Birds" by Aeschylus?

Frybabe · « **Reply #202 on:** February 16, 2012, 09:01:54 PM »

I still prefer to do a play after the middle of May. Then I can give my full attention to unfamiliar territory. My final two accounting classes are time killers.

JoanK · « **Reply #203 on:** March 25, 2012, 06:41:14 PM »

Pat and I put the classics on hold, since we felt that reading both Dickens and a classic at the same time would strain our brains. But Dickens will end in early May, so a classic will be scheduled for may 15th.

We voted on whether to continue with Plutarch or read a greek play. The vote came out as follows:

A. Plutarch 3: Frybabe, Rose and joanR

B. Play 4: Kidsal, Babi, Jude, Straude

Did I leave anyone out? Anyone else? Any changed votes? Get your togas on (what is the greek equivelant of a toga?) and let me know.

straudetwo · « **Reply #204 on:** March 28, 2012, 10:16:14 AM »

Just for the record I'm confirming my participation in Option B.

JoanK · « **Reply #205 on:** March 28, 2012, 06:03:38 PM »

Great, thank you. I'm accumulating copies of the plays that have been mentioned.

JoanK · « **Reply #206 on:** March 31, 2012, 04:00:00 PM »

Back when we voted on plays, most of the plays suggested revolved around strong women characters, good or bad. Clytemnestra, the avenger from the Orestia, Antigone, who gave the argument for Civil Disobedience millennia before the Civil Rights movement, Ipigenia, who rose from being a victim to saving herself and her brother. How did such a male-dominated society give rise to such fictional women? I suggest this as a theme for our reading.

Babi · « **Reply #207 on:** April 01, 2012, 08:16:55 AM »

Oh, now I am definitely looking forward to reading about Antigone and Iphigenia. May 15 isn't
so far away. Be nice if I could find all three plays in one collection. Do you know of any, JOAN?

JoanK · « **Reply #208 on:** April 01, 2012, 02:53:37 PM »

I'm still working on the details. Don't buy anything yet.

PatH · « **Reply #209 on:** April 01, 2012, 05:58:20 PM »

I went to my local library Friday, and they had just about every play we've even mentioned here, so there's a fallback plan.

Frybabe · « **Reply #210 on:** April 01, 2012, 07:03:33 PM »

I am happy to report that there is a good chance I will be able to participate. Classes are done on May 11. George's surgery is in about 12 days. Hopefully he will be at least partially recuperated by then too.

PatH · « **Reply #211 on:** April 01, 2012, 07:45:40 PM »

Great!

Babi · « **Reply #212 on:** April 02, 2012, 09:44:57 AM »

That's good news, FRYBABE. Is this the last of your courses? Are you all done? That would
definitely be cause for celebration.

Frybabe · « **Reply #213 on:** April 02, 2012, 03:22:25 PM »

Yes, this is the last of it. Hurray!

JoanK · « **Reply #214 on:** April 02, 2012, 03:59:14 PM »

HOORAY! We returning students ROCK!!!

The plan is to start the pre-discussion April 15 and the discussion May 15th.

I notice that of the plays that got the most votes, three of the plots turn on strong women who (for better or worse) take their fate in their own hands: Agammemnon by Aesculus, the first play in the Oresia, (please excuse my horrible spelling: it's bad in English, and impossible with Greek names, but I can't think and spell at the same time), Antigone by Sophecles, and Ipegenaia (?). The first two plays are considered real classics of literature: the third is on a different level, but has a (believe it or not) happy ending: a good antidote to the others.

The plus and minus of this is that they are all by different authors. We would experience the three greatest authors in Greek literature, but we would have to find three different plays. They are available online, and in libraries however.

I'm thinking we start with Antyigone, see how long it takes, and then do the other two (which are related).

Babi · « **Reply #215 on:** April 03, 2012, 08:23:48 AM »

Quote

I can't think and spell at the same time..

That would make it difficult, JOANK.

straudetwo · « **Reply #216 on:** April 04, 2012, 05:55:40 PM »

JoanK,
Antigone is an exciting project. The net has ample information on English translations, also the full text online, and even videos of modern-day adaptations.
Amazon carries an English translation by Pal Woodruff, professor and author, and one by the late Robert Fagles, eminent author, poet and translator.

We will be drawn into Antigone's family, but thankfully we have Edith Hamilton as the perfect guide.
Looking forward.

Frybabe · « **Reply #217 on:** April 04, 2012, 07:52:05 PM »

I am all set. I downloaded both Antigone and Agamemnon. I don't know which translations they are yet.

straudetwo · « **Reply #218 on:** April 04, 2012, 10:24:58 PM »

Frybabe,
May I point out that several years ago, when we discussed Dostoyevsky's The Brothers Karamazov , and a few years after that when we did Stendhal's he Red and the Black (Le rouge et le noir), DL JoanP inddicated (quite rightly so) that it is generally helpful in group discussions that members use the same translation, if it is at all possible. If memory serves, similar considerations applied when we did the Iliad and the Odyssey. The pre-discussion is a time of preparation, after all. But I'll leave that in JoanK's good hands.

JoanK · « **Reply #219 on:** April 05, 2012, 02:22:38 PM »

Thank you for that vote of confidence, but suggestions are always welcome. As you say, the pre-discussion will iron that out.

There are advantages and disadvantages both ways. One thing I don't want is people struggling with translations in arcane language, when there are so many good alternatives available.

Frybabe · « **Reply #220 on:** April 05, 2012, 06:22:21 PM »

My Antigone is part of the Oedipus Trilogy from the Loeb Library published in 1912. The translator is F. Storr. The Agamemnon is a rhyming verse translation by Gilbert Murray. I don't see a publication date on that one. I may just see if I can't find another version; rhyming verse is not my forte.

JoanK · « **Reply #221 on:** April 06, 2012, 06:52:21 PM »

Good point. I'm reading the Fagles, which is on Kindle. It may also be available online.

roshanarose · « **Reply #222 on:** April 09, 2012, 09:56:07 PM »

Greetings budding classicists -

I refer to a question earlier about what the Greeks wore. In brief, men wore a chiton, and women wore a peplum.

I hope you find this link about Greek clothing informative and interesting:

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/AncientGreekClothing/Ancient-Greek-Clothing.htm

For the record chiton is not pronounced as it spells. That "ch" sound in Greek is more like the "ch" in loch, or nicht (night). Coming from deep in the throat. We don't have to worry too much about pronunciation as we can't hear each other. However, it is useful to know these bits of trivia for cocktail parties and soirees in general.

kidsal · « **Reply #223 on:** April 10, 2012, 04:07:56 AM »

My copy of Antigone is a 2005 edition translated by J. E. Thomas and published by Prestwick House Literary Touchstone Classics.

PatH · « **Reply #224 on:** April 10, 2012, 10:36:03 AM »

Welcome back, roshanarose and kidsal. It's good to know you'll be with us. This is going to be fun.

JoanK · « **Reply #225 on:** April 10, 2012, 03:17:25 PM »

ROSE: thanks for the link. Apparently, Greek women wore "chitons". There weere dorian and Ionian versions. Here is a dorian one:

http://ancienthistory.about.com/b/2010/10/08/your-greek-costume.htm

(not as beautiful lines as what we think of as greek cotumes, with that extra fold of material over the abdomen. The Ionian version has the extra materia on top:

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/reenactgarb/ss/062910-Model-Your-Greek-Costumes-On-Ancient-Greek-Clothing_2.htm

I'll bet the extra material was like a purse with slits to put things in. but that's a guess.

JoanK · « **Reply #226 on:** April 10, 2012, 03:21:30 PM »

I'm starting to sew my chiton now (this from someone who can't sew a botton on).

PatH · « **Reply #227 on:** April 10, 2012, 08:40:08 PM »

Doesn't look like a lot of sewing, especially if you use decorative pins on the arm seams. I expect you to wear yours the next time I come out to see you.

roshanarose · « **Reply #228 on:** April 10, 2012, 10:25:45 PM »

Don't forget that your hair needs to be worn in a certain style.

On a good hair day I wear a French Roll or Twist. On a bad hair day I resemble Medusa

Check this link for how your hair must look Joan and Pat, et al.

http://www.beauty-and-the-bath.com/ancient-greek-hairstyles.html

And don't forget your footwear:

Early Minoan and Mycenaean men and women living between about 3000 B.C.E. and 1200 B.C.E. mostly went barefoot, but they did have a variety of sandals, shoes, and boots for outdoor wear. Early Greeks living between about 800 B.C.E. and 146 B.C.E. followed this tradition as well. All classes of Greeks went barefoot when indoors, removing their shoes when entering a house or temple. The proof of these practices has been discovered by archeologists, scientists who study the physical remains of the past. They have found that the outside steps of palaces and temples are far more worn down than the indoor steps, indicating that shoes were not worn indoors. Even outdoors, however, many children, slaves, and those who could not afford them wore no shoes. The Spartans, mainland Greeks who were famous for being great warriors, prided themselves on the toughness they showed by never wearing shoes. As shoemaking became a more developed craft, and shoes became more useful and comfortable, more and more Greeks began to wear them.

Footwear of all sorts was made mostly of leather, and occasionally of felt, or smooth cloth, or wood. Greeks tanned the hides of cattle for the majority of their footwear and developed a process known as tawing to cure the softer hides of calves, sheep, and goats for the finest shoes. Tawing produced soft white leather shoes. Tanned hides were a natural tan color but were sometimes dyed black, red, or yellow. For the very wealthy, shoes could be gilded, or coated in gold.

Footwear came in an abundance of styles. Styles were named after the place of origin, the famous people who made the style fashionable, as well as an assortment of specific names for certain styles. Greeks identified with their footwear so much that some people were given the nickname of their favorite shoe style.

FOR MORE INFORMATION
Batterberry, Michael, and Ariane Batterberry. Fashion: The Mirror of History. New York: Greenwich House, 1982.

Symons, David J. Costume of Ancient Greece. New York: Chelsea House, 1987.

Read more: Greek Footwear - Fashion, Costume, and Culture: Clothing, Headwear, Body Decorations, and Footwear through the Ages http://www.fashionencyclopedia.com/fashion_costume_culture/The-Ancient-World-Greece/Greek-Footwear.html#ixzz1rhC3H65q

Oh! We forgot to mention the "himation" a kind of short cloak worn by both men and women. Women would often wear the himation as a head covering as well.

I think that by now we are beginning to get an idea of what the Greek women of our plays may have looked like.

JoanK · « **Reply #229 on:** April 11, 2012, 06:43:21 PM »

ROSE: thank you for that importantinformation. Guess I won't get my hair cut as planned: I would hate to be mistaken for a slave. I think I'll go with the bun. But I get to wear a crown (diadem) with it!

As to shoes, I've always envied Athena her silver sandals.

roshanarose · « **Reply #230 on:** April 11, 2012, 08:29:59 PM »

I have always envied Hermes' footwear. I often wish I had wings on my ankles

As for you JoanK - I am certain that PatH will inform us as to whether you are appropriately attired Greek style!

Babi · « **Reply #231 on:** April 12, 2012, 08:41:03 AM »

Barefoot I can handle. Sandals also avaialble. I wonder if an old nightshirt belted up to make a 'hangover' would serve as a chiton?

JoanK · « **Reply #232 on:** April 12, 2012, 02:20:14 PM »

Rose: unfortunately, PatH and I, though united in spirit, live 3000 miles apart. The curse of a big country!

Oh, wait -- with my new sandals I can fly and visit her in a trice! Or you! I'll be there for afternoon tea!

roshanarose · « **Reply #233 on:** April 12, 2012, 11:09:30 PM »

Babi - You will look great in whatever you wear. Although perhaps we "ladies of more experience" (euphemism) should not attempt to wear what women wore for Hera's games held at Olympia. The women wore Amazon attire. I am sure you know what that is.

Oh, that is unfortunate about you two living so far apart. As for me, I am not only tucked away globally, but locally as well. Brisbane is a very big city and when I had to move out into the 'burbs I left several friends who dwell closer to the city behind, so it would be great to have you for afternoon tea as I don't see them often and would enjoy having a guest or two. Las time they came they had to take a packed lunch as they came by bus. I shall serve up my favourite Greek dessert "galaktoboureko" and will make Greek coffee where the teaspoon stands upright in the cup

A recipe for galaktoboureko:

http://greekfood.about.com/od/phyllopastriesbaklava/r/Custard-Phyllo-Pie-Recipe-Galaktoboureko.htm

Is anyone else getting the feeling that some procrastination is happening here?

Babi · « **Reply #234 on:** April 13, 2012, 08:09:22 AM »

Oh, not procrastination. Pat and our devoted techie geniuses have been setting up the discussion room. The old one got archived and had to be retrieved, and some links re-instated.
I'm confidant they will be ready on time to begin the pre-discussion.

PatH · « **Reply #235 on:** April 13, 2012, 09:32:52 AM »

Quote from: roshanarose on April 12, 2012, 11:09:30 PM

Is anyone else getting the feeling that some procrastination is happening here?

It's not procrastination, it's scheduling. (That sounds funny, but it's true.) We don't have enough discussion leaders to run multiple discussions--it takes more time than you'd think, and most of us need breaks between. At the moment JoanK and Babi and I are part of a 5 man team taking turns leading a massive discussion of Dickens' Bleak House. We probably said this somewhere up above, but the plan is to move to a new prediscussion site on April 15 and talk about background and conventions of Greek plays, maybe pick up a few more participants, though we already have a nice bunch of superstars. On May 15 we'll start Antigone. By then Bleak House will be almost done.

I'm getting impatient too, but that's the schedule that works for the site as a whole.

PatH · « **Reply #236 on:** April 13, 2012, 09:53:26 AM »

Roshanarose, save me a piece of galaktoboureko, I love Greek pastries. And the coffee! Are you of the drink-the sludge-too school, or the leave-it-in-the bottom-of the-cup school?

By the way, I'm glad to see you back posting again. There was almost a 3 week gap, and I was just starting to wonder if I should send out the St. Bernards.

PatH · « **Reply #237 on:** April 14, 2012, 02:55:55 PM »

We have a new home for the Greek plays. You can get to it HERE

roshanarose · « **Reply #238 on:** April 15, 2012, 11:34:48 PM »

You ladies never cease to amaze and inspire me. Please forgive me for my hint of procrastination, I had no idea that there was so much behind setting the whole thing up.

Truly beautiful pic of Epidavros ... well chosen.

When in Greece I have Greek tea, when in Australia we have endless varieties of coffee so I can drink by mood.

Speaking of drinking, PatH, don't forget to send the big pup with the brandy cask. My favourite. As for my absence - just too busy for SL, which is not a good thing. I am just about to write my first clues in Author, Author.

Lorac625 · « **Reply #239 on:** September 20, 2012, 01:47:41 PM »

Is this an ongoing discussion group? As a former classicist,I'd love to be in a group discussing this sort of literature.

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Author Topic: Nominations for our next Classics books discussion (Read 92853 times)