Dancing at the Rascal Fair by Ivan Doig August Book Club Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

Dancing at the Rascal Fair by Ivan Doig

Dancing at the Rascal Fair is an authentic saga of the American experience at the turn of this century and a passionate, portrayal of the immigrants who dared to try new lives in the imposing Rocky Mountains. Ivan Doig's supple tale of landseekers unfolds into a fateful contest of the heart between Anna Ramsay and Angus McCaskill, walled apart by their obligations as they and their stormy kith and kin vie to tame the brutal, beautiful Two Medicine country. It is a story rich in detail, recounted in language that rings true, from the Scottish lilt of Lucas Barclay to the laconic speech of Stanley Meixell; above all, it is a story filled with “those word rainbows called poems.” (Barnes & Noble) "Against this masterfully evoked backdrop. Mr. Doig addresses his real subject: love between friends, between the sexes, between the generations....His is a prose as tight as a new thread and as special as handmade candy....Dancing at the Rascal Fair races with real vigor and wit and passion." Lee K. Abbott ~ The New York Times Book Review

Discussion Schedule:

August 1 ~ 5  Scotland and Helena; Gros Ventre; Medicine Lodge (about 88 pages)
August 6 ~ 14  Scotch Heaven (about 111 pages)
August 15 ~ 21  The Steaders (about 75  pages)
August 22 ~ 31  Two Medicine, 1918, 1919

*****

Some Topics for Consideration
August 22 ~ 31  

Two Medicine

1. Why does Angus say that the band of sheep grazing on the rented Blackfeet reservation land  was for Varick's benefit "in the eventual"?  Why is Rob helping with the shearing up there?

2.  Did Anna come up there with her children because she knew Angus would be there, or in spite of it?  When she agreed to see the dawn with Angus, was she agreeing to something more?  

3.  Why did Rob  bring Varick into the equation?  Do you think he came to regret his action?

4. "They look at us, our fleeceless sons, and wonder how we ever grew such awful coats of complication."  A parallel between Varick and those vulnerable sheep.  How did the teen-aged Varick respond to Uncle Rob's report?  

5.  What was Lucas thinking when he made that will?  Do you think he achieved what he wanted for each of his  "heirs"?

6. As remote as it seems, the world seems to find its way into Scotch Heaven and the lives of its inhabitants. Somewhere Professor Doig asks the question, "Can fiction bring a milieu alive more vividly than "straight" history?"  What do you think?

1919

7. Do you thnk they would have made it back from Valier with the haywagons plowing through the snow - without Varick?  

8.  Do Adair and Angus both hold Rob responsible for what happened in the reservoir?  What do you think caused the drastic change in Rob's personality toward the end of his life?

9. As he writes Rob's remembrance ,  what are Angus' mixed feelings for his long time friend?  Do you think  their differences  had always been there, but not noticed?

10. Doig decided to write a Scotch Heaven trilogy?   Will it be Varick's story?  Do you intend to read on?

Related links:
1862 - the Pacific Railroad Act and the Homestead Act
Gros Ventre Indians in Montana
Ivan's Notes on his home page

Discussion Leaders:   Babi  & Joan P

[Babi]

 Unfortunately, previous exposure to one flu is no guaranty of protection
against the next. Those flu viruses keep..what is the term?...metamorphosing?.
New strains every year, seemingly.

 CALLIE, if I'm remembering correctly, Adair first mentioned returning to
Scotland when it seemed she could never carry a child to term. She was not
happy with Montana, and her marriage with Angus had little to compensate her.
Once Varick was born, there was not further mention of Scotland, but Angus
might well have thought, as Varick grew older, that Adair might once again
thing of leaving once Varick was gone.

  Since we readers are privy to Angus' inner thoughts, I wonder if either woman
realized how their remarks affected Angus?

 Oh, that is a hard question, CALLIE. In general, I think women do, usually,
know how their words are affecting their men. More so than the other way around,
at least. But one never really knows. The person we're talking to may be in a
situation, just then, that means they hear something quite different from what
was intended.  How many misunderstandings have come about because the people
in an argument were not really hearing what the other was saying?

 I was hoping Rob could turn things around, too,SALLY. But his death was so
much in keeping with his temper and bitterness. I can so easily see something
like that happening. The circumstances that led up to it can be seen earlier
in the story, so it's not something that just jumped up out of nowhere.
 We never know how a book is going to affect us. Our views about the characters
color all our perceptions. Just the other day I was reading a book in which
a character I like was behaving very badly. I was so upset I wanted to smack
him, and wound up getting annoyed with my cat!

 I think you're right, BARB. There are so many possible ways to read this
segment on the talk between Angus and Anna. And certainly the book is more
than a story of Scots sheepmen and Montana. It's a story of a time and a place
and the lives of people we have really come to like.

[JoanP]

Just this morning I heard about another strain of a bird flu - H5N1 I think it's called.  In China now - supposed to start to spread.  It is dangerous, as the flu vaccine planned for this fall  won't protect.  There is no known protection at this early stage.

However we read that pre-dawn conversation between Anna and Angus, it is clear that Angus hadn't given up his hope for a life with Anna - if he's patient.  Were you taken off guard when she became a victim of the flu?  I wondered how Doig was going to write his way through the rest of the story.
It was painful to read, wasn't it?

Is Angus able to get on with his life, now that there will be no future with Anna?  Perhaps what he went through following her death is normal grieving -  for a close loved one?  Do you agree with Sally?  Did Angus really know Anna that well, or did he create her, a mythical  version of Anna?  How does he get her out of his mind, when she's been there so long?

- "That season of loss."

- "...the Anna emptiness always waited"

- "the fact of Anna's death did not recede."

- "each dawn was the dawn of Anna and myself and the color of morning."

- "each time, each memory, I told myself with determination would be the last - that here was the logical point for the past to grow quiet."

I don't think I ever became impatient with Angus - as much as I felt sorry for him - and for Adair too.  She knew he cared for Anna when she married him - but not the extent of it.  I feel I must read another of Doig's books - of the McCaskill trilogy - out of curiosity. Will there be more of the Anna obsession?  Or, without the longing for what cannot be, what kind of a book does Doig write?

[BarbStAubrey]

Ok I think I am on to something that is a prototype for the - she loves who loves another who still loves another and he makes the one who loves him feel loved without giving her his all…

This is a round about way of getting there however, let's start with the obvious that we have not even closely looked at. Raw nature versus, the work of humans.

Have you noticed over and over we hear about the mountains – named as if quotes from a catechism or a line of verse - the stretch of flat land – the rivers – whooping wind – the snow – the unexpected Spring – the beauty of the dawn – the golden light - the night, coyotes singing to the moon – the winter eaten with an ax – the sky is vasty blue – the sweep of land beneath the mountains - descriptions of horses – chilly days with no smoke rising from a chimney – faces described as walnut-colored and tipped outhouses described as beetles on their back.

Now compare all that wonder to how houses and sheds and fences are described – they are always coupled with a secondary word ‘work’ – no beauty or joy or awe of the skill and labor – only, the man made represents years or weeks of work –

On page 99 dropping the logs in place – “With a sound like a big box lid closing,”

Page 91 is a litany of the word “build” and yet, on that same page is a long paragraph of gazing “the tall grass of the valley bottom was being ruffled. A dance of green down there, and the might of the mountains above, and the aprons of timber and grazing land between; this would always be a view to climb to,”

Page 93 there is a wish for Oakum {tarred hemp that is used between the seams of a wooden sailboat} rather than clay as another example of building tight and sturdy using their knowing skill.

Page 103 “Now there’s a year’s worth of good luck if ever saw him…stepped back in across the Duff threshold without a word, strode to the stove and poked the fire into brisker flames. Not that any of us at all believed the superstition about a tall unspeaking man who straightway tended the hearth fire being the year’s most propitious first foot, but still.” And so, a building is a place where an event can be labeled as good luck -

The site Angus chooses for his cabin is behind the Breed Butte near a creek – out of sight and on a level piece of land for comfort. Reminds me of his bunk on the Jemmy where he hung on tightly and secretly sweated out his fears yet, he had limes to comfort him when the ship tossed them at sea. Another box – even if a hole in the sea as compared to his cabin, a box built amid the wonders and rough givings of nature.

The story describes no Christmas’s or Birthdays – no celebrations except, for the monthly dance at the school house – there is no statements of awe and wonderment for the skill or workmanship or labor used to build – the building are there to shelter – shelter from weather – a place to cook – not always eat in unless nature is on a rampage – a place to conceive children and birth them – the box that marks 5 years of homesteading and a place where fears and dreams are given attention.

A quote kept rattling in my head – “that all their elves for fear - Creep into acorn-cups and hide them there.”

Tried a few poets with no success so finally I Googled the quote and voilà – Shakespeare and there it is – Ivan Doig had to know the story line because bits and pieces are all contained in his Dancing at the Rascal Fair – the quote, from Act 2 scene 1, in the woods near Athens, in Shakespeare’s – A Midsummer Night’s Dream

The king doth keep his revels here to-night:
Take heed the queen come not within his sight;
For Oberon is passing fell and wrath,
Because that she as her attendant hath
A lovely boy, stolen from an Indian king;
She never had so sweet a changeling;
And jealous Oberon would have the child
Knight of his train, to trace the forests wild;
But she perforce withholds the loved boy,
Crowns him with flowers and makes him all her joy:
And now they never meet in grove or green,
By fountain clear, or spangled starlight sheen,
But, they do square, that all their elves for fear
Creep into acorn-cups and hide them there.

Is Rob like Oberon the king of the fairies – as Angus and Adair is like King Theseus and Queen Hippolyta?

And then we have Helena in Act 2 – interesting, a town in Montana is named Helena.

Helena is the  pursuer, with Demetrius as the object of her desire, a reversal of roles which she finds scandalous. In this comedy of love and enchantment, Helena has followed Demetrius into the woods where he has gone to find the woman he loves, Hermia, who ran off with the man whom she loves, Lysander.

Sound familiar...

Helena will not be deterred; and no matter how much Demetrius insults, demeans, and threatens her, she remains steadfast in her devotion. He tells her that it makes him sick just to look at her; she responds that it makes her sick NOT to look at him. He threatens to abandon her in the woods, where she would be at the mercy of wild animals; she responds that they could do no worse than he has already done to her. Demetrius finally exits when Helena says, "We should be woo'd and were not made to woo." mocking him for his abdication of the traditional male role in courting.

[BarbStAubrey]

An e-book synopsis of Midsummer Night's Dream A play where nature has a role...

[Mippy]

Good morning, everyone ~
We are fine here on Cape Cod (MA) but our power kept fluctuating all day yesterday, so I remained off the computer.   We lost internet access and power most of Sunday, but during the day Monday internet came back.   I'm way behind on reading the posts, but I did finish the book.
                             
Thanks for asking about us, we are ok.

[JoanP]

There you are!  So good to hear from you, Mippy!  Did you lose any trees?  That seems to be the major loss here - 100 year old oaks, upended.  Not ours, neighbors...but too close for comfort.  We're all vulnerable!

We need to hear from JoanR on Long Island - and then I think we are all accounted for...
Isn't this just the start of the hurricane season?  (Maybe I shouldn't have said that!)  We look forward to hearing from you soon.  One question on the table - did you like the book - do you plan to read another of the McCaskill Trilogy?

Barbara, you certainly get the sleuthing award for establishing the connection and finding the parallel's  between Doig's story and "A Midsummer Night's Dream."  Honestly, you should have been a teacher.  Did you know there are Dancing at the Rascal Fair study guides out there for teachers who plan to use this book in their high school classes?  After reading your post, it occurred to me that it would be even more valuable, meaningful - to present both of these works together... Hurrah for Barbara!
Now I've got to ask you where in the book you found the quote that led to your discovery?  - “that all their elves for fear - Creep into acorn-cups and hide them there.”   It sounds as if it may have referred before the historic snowfall in the last chapter of the book?  Is that where you noted it?
It took a poet to notice the import of that line and seek the connection!  Thank you!

Several of you have expressed disappointment in Doig's handling - or lack of it - of Rob's character - especially at the end.  Lets talk more about Rob before the party is over.

[Babi]

 Glad to hear all is well, MIPPY.  Do join us as soon as you've had a chance to catch your breath.

  I don't know if I can agree that there is no evidence of "beauty or joy or awe of the
skill and labor", BARB. Remember that drive Angus made with Varick, taking the herd of
sheep up to the reservation? The sense of satisfaction and fitness, the repeated refrain
of "this I know the tune of"?  Angus loved his life and his work, whether on the land
or in the school.
  But yes, the descriptions of the land, the people, the homes they've built and the
animals they tend...all are so beautifully and poetically described.

 And the characters. The end of the war; Varick returns. He is a boy no longer; he has matured
considerably.  We see the first hint of this in his greeting to his father. Then, His gaze
shifted to Rob, and in another tone he simply uttered with a nod, "Unk."  At some point in
the last few years, he has realized the wrongness of Rob's part in his estrangement from
Angus. And at some later point, he even tells Angus, "Dad, I heard about Mrs. Reese...It
must be tough on you."  I really, really like this young man.   

[BarbStAubrey]

No Joan, the quote is NOT in Ivan Doig's story - when I saw the house described as a big box and then realized the similarity between the berth aboard ship and how in both places Angus shares his fears - in his house he more states his fears than describes his physical response to his fears but that connection with personal space and fear had the quote rattle in my brain -

When I was a child my mother had a quote for EVERYTHING - it was constant - at times it was a line from a song that she would break out in reaction to the topic at hand - and so these quote come to mind that I have no reference where they came from until I recall one and look it up. Being afraid was not high on my mother's list of virtues and during the thirties there was many a reason for fear - interesting she never quoted Roosevelt till the war years...Anyhow that was how it started - once I found where the quote originated and started to read the scene there were many similarities.

I've been reading the play online - I can see many a movie that has borrowed some of the premise from this play, especially movies from the 1930s.

It would be fun to read the teacher guides - are they online - would they assist us when we are putting questions together for a book we are reading?

Glad you are in good shape after the storm Mippy - and wow, Babi did you hear, we may be getting rain before the week is out - I know Houston had some sprinkles this summer but we have had notta - and we can only water our lawn one day a week - I am ready for the streets to show wrinkles and our front lawns, that are now mostly brown, to start cracking.

Till later - I will be late...

[JoanP]

Varick returned from the war - though he never saw the front, he did experience the Spanish flu and the toll it took.  How did this change his attitude towards his father - and his uncle?  This wasn't what Rob expected, I'm sure.  Now Varick remains merely civil towards Unk, but is ready to return to his family now.  Is this maturity, Babi?  Maybe he sees now that his father never intended to leave Adair because of Anna.  And more importantly, Adair had no plan to leave Angus.  Adair's role in the story becomes more and more important as the events unfold, doesn't it?

That was some trek through the snow - to Valier - for hay for the horses.  Wasn't it obvious that Rob and Angus could not have done this themselves?  Varick seems to be emerging as the future of the McCaskill saga.  Will Varick - and Elisabeth lead the cast in the next of the trilogy?  Will English Creek be their story?  If so, I hope that we will read more of Adair and Angus.  I'm not ready to say goodbye to these two.
Where's Sheila?  Do I remember correctly, that you purchased all three of the trilogy, Sheila?  Have you begun English Creek?
Do any of you intend to read another of Doig's novels?

[JoanP]

Barbara - here's a link to the Lesson Plans for Dancing at the Rascal Fair.  They are for sale - so I was unable to get in and see any of the material included within.

Still feel that it would be interesting to include teaching "A Midsummer Night's Dream" with Dancing at the Rascal Fair in a high school curriculum.

Wow, I'm even more impressed that you had that line in your head as you read Dancing and then found the parallels to Midsummer Night.  Such a gift your mother passed on to you!

[JoanP]

I came in this afternoon to ask you to consider the contrasts between the characters - and to ask what you think of 

Rob and Lucas - both set out for adventure as young men - and more.  Both had dreams of a better life - riches and success. 

Rob and Angus - two friends who left Scotland for a better life.  Do you think either of them met their expectations?

Adair and Anna - why did each of these young ladies leave Scotland? 

Varick and Angus - how would you compare father and son - when they were each 19? 

[BarbStAubrey]

I see Lucas as the fulcrum between Rob and Angus - as to Rob and Lucas - Blood is thicker than water plus both strive for dollars - Lucas with no hands - hands are said to be the closest thing to voice and power - and yet, he speaks from the grave but only because of Adair - looks like the power of Lucas is only as good as he has something or someone to back him - the something often is his money and the someone is most often a Barclay - Nancy is there but does not act for him rather she takes care of him.

Rob and Angus are the arms of the scale that Lucas is the fulcrum holding the two from drifting head long out in orbit. When Rob is up often Angus is down and towards the end of the story the reverse - Rob is down and Angus is up.

Given the time in history the came I would imagine it had much to do with the decrease in opportunity as the famous Highland clearances by the English was taking place that by this time had included the clearance of the lowlands.

Adair I imagine came because Rob talked her into it and there was no one left in Scotland to take care of her. Her talk of returning to Scotland was probably homesickness for something that is no longer there. And so it seems to me both Adair and Angus had their "if only" dreams.

As to Anna Ramsay - she was from a nearby Scottish village but not much of her background was included in story - she is almost a shade with very little directly from her mouth.

With the comment Varick makes during the white out about his Unk pushing the limits it was obvious Angus and his son were tight again - a team - lovely...

As to more reads by Ivan Doig - I think I will pass - I only read this one to support Babi - Settling this nation is not high on my reading list and I have a stack of other authors I want to read next.

[CallieOK]

According to the Reader's Guide on Ivan Doig's web site  http://www.ivandoig.com/guide.html, "Dancing At The Rascal Fair" is the second book in the trilogy,  It's a sequel to "English Creek" and "Ride With Me Mariah Montana" is the third one.  These two actually take place 20 years after "Dancing...".

Scroll down the links on the left side of the page to find the titles and information.

[Babi]

 

Adair's role in the story becomes more and more important as the events unfold, doesn't it?

Good point, JOANP. Adair does take a more central role, partly, I think, thanks to the
canny maneuvering of Lucas Barkley. He always did seem to consider a problem, and then act
to resolve it as peacefully as he could. I haven't forgotten how he quietly sent Nancy away
for a while when Rob began hovering about too much.
 Then, too, she no longer has to wonder if she will one day be put aside. Angus is now hers,
no rivals. She can step up to center stage without fear.

  Actually, "Dancing at the Rascal Fair", though written second, is a prequel to "English
Creek".  English Creek is set in the late 1930's and features 'Jack McCaskill'...probably
Varick's son. I hope to read that one, too.  Actually, there is supposed to be another book
featuring one of Angus' students.  Remember Susan, of the strong character and lovely singing
voice?  I would like to read that one, too.

  Were  you surprised to find histor repeating itself?  History repeating itself.  Varick falls in love with Lisabeth Reese, Anna's daughter and her image in every way.  He announces his intention to marry her, but then admits she is not yet aware of these plans for her future. Angus is dumbfounded.  "Doesn't any generation ever learn the least scrap about life from the..."  Fortunately, Beth said 'yes' to his proposal.

[JoanP]

I spent some time this morning reading summaries of Doig's novels in the link Callie provided here yesterday.  Fascinating - Thanks, Callie!

As Babi just pointed out - English Creek, though the first book in the Trilogy, is actually a sequel to Dancing at the Rascal Fair...which is why we decided to read it first as Sheila intended to do back in July.

Dancing at the Rascal Fair "began on the quays of a Scottish port in 1889 to its close on a windswept Montana homestead three decades later.

 "In English Creek Ivan Doig gave us the West of the l930's;  the backdrop for Jick McCaskill's coming-of-age late in the Depression. Jick is fourteen and able now to share in the full life of family and town and ranch in the sprawling Two Medicine country. His father is a roustabout range rider turned forest ranger; his mother, from a local ranching family, is a practical woman with a peppery wit."

I see it's "Jick," not Jack, Babi - This is Varick's son - do you think that's where the "ick" in Jick comes from?

The third book - Ride With Me, Mariah Montana brings the story up to Montana's centennial  "Now, by way of Jick again and another cast of ineffably believable characters, he brings the story forward to l989."

Babi - in the same link, I found Susan Duff in Prairie Nocturne.
"As for Susan Duff, who is the prism and distinctive sensibility of this novel, she first came into my pages as a bossy indomitable schoolgirl with a silver voice of her own in Dancing at the Rascal Fair and has demanded her own book ever since."

Does anyone else intend to read any of these titles in the future?

[JoanP]

Lucas did do a lot of maneuvering, I agree, Babi - though I think Adair would have done nothing he wanted her to do that she wasn't comfortable with.  Adair has a mind of her own, as she would have put it.  Don't fret about Adair.

Barbara sees Lucas "as the fulcrum between Rob and Angus."  Do you think Lucas had a strong influence on Angus?  Could he persuade Angus to do anything that Angus did not want to do?  My first thought - no - BUT then I remember that land-locator business... Why did Angus agree to do that?

Rob on the other hand could be talked into just about anything - if he stood to gain from it.  Financial gain seemed to be the way Lucas always controlled him.

Barbara, do you consider Doig's primary purpose in writing this trilogy was to tell of the settling of this nation - of Montana? If so, who's story is it, then? Is Montana the main character? 
If the story is considered from this angle, it seems that we need to consider those who came first - and the difficulties they faced.
I think of Lucas - and his dreams of a better life in Montana - meaning riches, silver.  Didn't Rob go to Montana for the same reason?   Both men met with disappointment.  Whose was worse?  How did each resolve their disappointment?

 Am late - but am really interested in hearing how the rest of you viewed the story, Doig's purpose...etc.

[PatH]

Indeed, Barb, Lucas is often the power behind things.  Angus says L. always knows exactly what he (Angus) is thinking, and he cares about both Rob and Angus.  Even if it didn't work, his will certainly provided the best chance for reconciliation between the cousins.  But instead it led to Rob's death.  I wonder if Adair felt a little bit responsible for the death?

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes Pat, Lucas - it appears is not especially leaning toward either Rob or Angus - like the stem holding the balance with the two, Rob and Angus on either end of the arm across the stem - it was his letters back to Scotland that gave wings to the idea of emigrating and it was finding him in America that allowed them to feel secure enough so they could settle - it was his contacts that helped them get started as well as, his contact directed Angus to find their homestead site - and then it was his money that put them on the road to making a life and his continued financial support when a new idea for increasing their wealth crossed Rob's mind.

As you say Joan, he was holding the reins on Rob where Angus chaffed under those financial reins and wanted to be free of them. However, that to me is just the balance in the scale as it goes up and down with Lucas the center stem.

Even when Angus spills the beans about Rob and Nancy, Lucas takes care of it but does not pull back from Rob nor does he feel the need to show him up. In addition, Lucas is handless - the hands are the most expressive part of the body. As Aristotle says, "The tools of tools" - the hands are used to communicate - Lucas had no hands so his epic moment in the story had to be investing in others and his Will that outlined the last investment.

The Barclay's were all dreamers but Lucas knew how to couple his dreams with profit. In that respect Adair is more like Lucas - given the time and place in history she hung on and was at the top of the food chain. A good solid husband who was loving if not in love and a son to be proud of with skills, morals and strong opinions - not wealthy but she helped develop a homestead that will be the family touchstone in this new Montana.

I look at the story and it ends almost as it began, with a horse tumping into water that cannot be saved. Again, as I remember when we read, the first paragraph outlines the story - so back I go - Ivan quotes from the Glasgow Caledonian newspaper - I see Doig's story starting, "To say the truth, it was not how I expected--stepping off toward America past a drowned horse."

With that I see the intention was to tell a story of settling in America - in this case Montana and a horse drowns to start the story and end this part of the story, assuming we know the story continues as a trilogy. The bio that Callie found and shared indicates the author wanted to write about the land where he grew up. I would add he wrote about the early whites who change the face of the land and who were like his own family from Scotland and his love for the sweep of the land, the pioneer's early efforts and some of the untold stories of history.

Further I saw a correlation between England's clearing Scotland to re-portion it from Clan control to English control and the cleared land may have started in the Highlands however, it proceeded in the nineteenth century into the Lowlands - the cleared land was then mostly used for grazing sheep - This displacement sent many Scotsmen to coastal cities and to America during the eighteenth and nineteenth century.

From the years of Doig's story, Rob's and Angus' community would be affected, with fewer locals to keep a community vibrant. And so, Lucas, Rob, Angus were among those who came to Montana and did to the native Indians exactly what was done to them in Scotland. They admired the surrounding land but plowed up the valuable prairie not knowing any better - I guess we all have to ask what price glory - because we have on the backs of. these early settlers, the natural resources, and the land occupied by natives become a very wealthy nation.

Why a horse - Isaac runs horses, Varick shows his young adult skill riding rodeo, the horses pull the sleds of hay through the snow that saves most of their sheep, was used to carry rider and supplies to the summer grazing, the horse even brings them to Gros Ventra - in Celtic lore the horse is a messenger of the gods and symbolizes intellect, wisdom, the swiftness of thought and of life.

[BarbStAubrey]

Re-reading the post for errors I noticed how there was a tug in my throat when I read how the English displaced the Scotch from villages where for hundreds of years family relatives lived and died and yet, even I did not feel the same tug but more a matter of fact when I even write how Native Indian land was taken and rationed off to white settlers. hmmm need to think this through from both sides...

And then I thought if a story was starting today instead of a horse would it be that the internet went down world wide as someone was about to board a plane or maybe a rocket ship for another part of the universe.  

[PatH]

Good point about the horse, Barb.  I did expect Rob to die before the end of the book--something in the tone Angus used one of the times his interior monologue addressed Rob in the second person.  I can't find it now--it's somewhere close to the beginning of the book.

[Mippy]

Just a note to say thanks to our excellent DLs and all who posted so many informative posts.  I'm sorry I was here so seldom, but hours spent on  hurricane yard clean up this week was the last straw. 
    I look forward to reading with all of you in the future!   

[CallieOK]

This has been a most interesting discussion.  Many thanks to each of the DLs and all the participants.
Happy Reading!

[JoanP]

Thank YOU, Callie!  It's been quite an interesting discussion - history, geography and a family saga as well - not to mention an earthquake and a hurricane...  Mippy, you've had a time of it.  We appreciate your participation, with your summer visitors...including Irene.  We can stay open a few more days - especially looking to hear from JoanR - on Long Island, another who lives in Irene's path.

We're interested in hearing your overall impressions of the book, as well as the closing chapter.  I didn't expect Rob to die, PatH.  Thought there would be some sort of resolution of their differences before the story ended.  The fact that Doig didn't end on that note only made the story more believable...life isn't fiction with happy, satisfying endings. 
But the harsh way he died!  With Angus and his sister as witnesses. Bull-headed Rob - still thinking he could do it his way!


It was logical that Angus was asked to write Rob's remembrance.  It was almost as if he finally understood his old friend, when attempting to put his feelings into words.

[JoanP]

"I look at the story and it ends almost as it began, with a horse tumping into water that cannot be saved. Barbara"

What a valuable, insightful summing-up post, Barbara!

Why a horse, you asked. This wan't just any horse Rob drowned on...with his foot jammed in the stirrup.  Scorpion was jointly owned by the two of them, wasn't he?  Rob resents the fact that Angus holds on to that old  "Reese horse." - much the same as he resents the fact that Angus hangs on to Anna - Reese.

I never understood why Rob insisted on paying Isaac Reese for part ownership of that horse - and why he insisted on keeping half-ownership when the partnership dissolved.  Do you see any significance here?

Barbara, your mention of a correlation between England's clearing Scotland to re-portion it from Clan control to English control - brought to mind the next novel in the Trilogy - English Creek.  It will be interesting to learn more about the significance of that title...

[Babi]

 Oh, thank you, JOANP. I definitely wanted to read the Susan Duff book if at all possible.
"Prairie Nocturne"...got it!
  I believe Angus had a great respect for Lucas, but I don't think Lucas could have
persuaded him to anything against his own better judgment. I think the brief venture is
settling homesteaders was simply the recognition that he did need the money. It was not
enough to make him continue, tho', once he felt it was the wrong thing to do.

 I can't see the enforced partnership as being the cause of Rob's death, PAT. And surely
not Adair's on-going role as a buffer between them, trying to ease the strain. Rob was
already bitter and sour. Resentful against everything.  Even the return of
spring and beautiful weather only makes him snarl because it didn't come earlier when heneeded it.  He is antagonistic to anything and everything Angus says. He is taking some of
his rage out in shooting coyotes.  He takes the continued existence of that old horse,
Scorpion, as an outrage; he's not gaining them anything; he should be put down. And his
raging anger leads at last to his death.

 Angus closing words are so poignant, to me. "my friend who was my enemy. Equally ardent at both, weren't you, bless you, damn you. You I knew longest of any, Rob, and I barely fathomed you at all, did I?

[PatH]

I really enjoyed this book--both the historical and geographical side and the human story--will definitely read more of Doig's books.  JoanP and Babi, you did a wonderful job finding background material and analyzing the book in great detail.  And you all saw so much in the book that I never would have noticed without you.  A really great discussion.

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, I have to agree with Callie, Pat, Mippy - a really nice discussion - for me this was a piece of American History that I would never have read about - most of the early settlement stories I have read are either from the southwest or very early northeast along with some for the nineteenth century south - this was my first read of Scottish settlers - stories I have read in the past about Scotland were usually centered in the struggle of the Jacobites - and so this story was neat to see how the later generations of folks with the Jacobite heritage affected the settling of America. Babi and Joan you both gave us food for thought and admirably kept us going. And early in the read Callie your sharing the experiences of your family and the settling of OK was fabulous. Thanks to everyone -

[Babi]

  I have so much enjoyed sharing this book with all of you.  I do apreciate JOANP's hard work
and her invitation to assist.  I have started Doig's "Prairie Nocturne" and I am finding again that
skilled craftsmanship we've come to admire in Doig.  Ah, what he can do with words!
 Thank you all so much for making this such a pleasure.   Is there anything you'd like to include
before we wind this up?
 One final quote for me,   "Life isn't famous for being evenhanded, is it?"

[JoanP]

Babi, thank you for the reference to Doig's writing style. You kept such wonderful notes - and brought them to us in each and every post.  What a joy to meet you here each morning!

 I know how easy it is to get caught up in the history and the human story - you sort of forget the brush strokes Doig used to bring it alive.  

Just this once, I'm going to admit to a personal interest in Angus' inability to get past that first love...I admired how he tried to get on with his life and his marriage, living always with that other life that might have been - might even live someday.

It will be interesting to turn to English Creek to see what becomes of Adair and Angus.  Will they stay on in Scotch Heaven or move on with Varick and his family to a place called English Creek? I'm curious how Adair and Angus will get on with Anna no longer a presence.

I want to be sure to add thank you's to ALL who contributed to the discussion.  We couldn't have done it without you.  You each had something important to say - even if you didn't understand Angus' obsession!   Y ou're lucky if you never experienced such a lifelong distraction!

We'll stay open here through the Labor Day weekend - giving those who are still mopping up after Irene to come in with final thoughts.  We'd hate to turn off the lights with some out there without power.  

[maryz]

Thanks for this discussion - interesting as always.  It prompted me to reread a book I'd enjoyed many years ago, and I'll be rereading others of Doig's books.

[Babi]

Joan and MaryZ,  "Prairie Nocturne",  which features that former student of Angus',  Susan Duff,
does include Angus and Adair.  It is set, apparently, about 1924.  From the reviews, I gather
"English Creek" opens in 1939.  Some of the earlier reviews I checked seemed to confuse those
dates.  (Or perhaps I was the one confused?)  I'm guessing that John (Jack) McCaskill of 1939
is Varick's son.  Whatever....I want to read them all!


 

[JoanP]

Thank you, MaryZ - we enjoyed having you join in the discussion!  Babi brings interesting information on the books that follow our Dancing characters to whet the appetite~  Funny how he wrote them out of chronological order, isn't it?  Maybe that's the way they were published?

So, Babi, about what age are you finding Adair and Angus in Prairie Nocturne?  I have to read that one!

I looked it up and found this-
 "Set in Montana, France, Scotland, and New York during the Harlem Renaissance, Prairie Nocturne is a deeply longitudinal novel that raises everlasting questions of allegiance, the grip of the past, and the cost of passion.  Doig seems to be at it again!

[Babi]

Adair is 40 when the book opens in 1924.  What year was it that Angus emigrated? 1897?
He was 19 at that time, whenever it was.  So that would make him about 48.  That makes
sense.  He was pretty young when he started teaching.  He is still teaching, by the way.

[CallieOK]

All of Doig's books are in the OKC Library system but only a few are in my branch.  One of them is "Prairie Nocturne" and I brought it home yesterday.   Started reading it last night and like it.

 Susan Duff is an interesting person and by the end of page 3, Doig has deftly told us where she is in her life and how she got there.   You may be surprised!

[JoanP]

Callie, I always thought Susan Duff was interesting too - outstanding and way beyond her years.  Smart, considering that she was brought up fairly isolated from the outside world.  I expected we'd hear more about her in the Dancing story - and eager to check out "Prairie Nocturne" to learn what brought her to France - and Harlem.  I just checked my Library - they have three copies - all "available."  We're planning a trip abroad in the coming week - I'd better not start it now -
 Something to look forward to when we return.

[PatH]

We're planning a trip abroad in the coming week - I'd better not start it now -
 Something to look forward to when we return.

Where?

[JoanP]

Pat, we're off to London to visit with son who lives there, temporarily, I hope.  Also a side trip to Spain - to Madrid and then to Toledo.  I've never learned the language, so that's the challenge this trip.  I've learned about 50 phrases that might be hepful -such as -  Donde estan los servicios?  Or - Hacen descuentos a los jubilados.   I can recognize many  nouns - on  menus.

[maryz]

JoanP - have a great trip.  Spain has been really high on my wish list for some time, but....   You'll do fine with the language.  I've gotten some of my best meals when I had no clue as to what I was ordering. 

[JoanP]

Thanks, MaryZ - not sure how I'd react to a serving of criadillas   (bull's testicles) - maybe they'd be delicious, as long as I didn't know what I was eating.)

We're scheduled to put this discussion away tonght.  It's been a pleasure.  Let's do it again.  Maybe with one of Doig's books?