Author Topic: Dancing at the Rascal Fair by Ivan Doig August Book Club Online (Read 66213 times)

JoanP · « **on:** July 31, 2011, 01:21:54 PM »

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.

Dancing at the Rascal Fair by Ivan Doig

Dancing at the Rascal Fair is an authentic saga of the American experience at the turn of this century and a passionate, portrayal of the immigrants who dared to try new lives in the imposing Rocky Mountains.
Ivan Doig's supple tale of landseekers unfolds into a fateful contest of the heart between Anna Ramsay and Angus McCaskill, walled apart by their obligations as they and their stormy kith and kin vie to tame the brutal, beautiful Two Medicine country.
It is a story rich in detail, recounted in language that rings true, from the Scottish lilt of Lucas Barclay to the laconic speech of Stanley Meixell; above all, it is a story filled with “those word rainbows called poems.” (Barnes & Noble)

"Against this masterfully evoked backdrop. Mr. Doig addresses his real subject: love between friends, between the sexes, between the generations....His is a prose as tight as a new thread and as special as handmade candy....Dancing at the Rascal Fair races with real vigor and wit and passion." Lee K. Abbott ~ The New York Times Book Review

Discussion Schedule:

August 1 ~ 5 Scotland and Helena; Gros Ventre; Medicine Lodge (about 88 pages)
August 6 ~ 13 Scotch Heaven (about 111 pages)

*****

Some Topics for Consideration
August 1-5 Chapters 1 - 6 Scotland and Helena; Gros Ventre; Medicine Lodge

1. Which of the two Scottish lads would you prefer as a companion on the ship across the ocean?
Were they equally for leaving Scotland "with no divided heart"?

2. Do you find Angus' hesitation and backward glances easier to understand than Rob's lack of emotion?
Do you feel you know Angus better because he is the narrator? Had he been happy in Nethermuir?

3. What is it about the Irish girls who come aboard in Queenstown to sell their wares that reminds Angus of the tune of the title, "Dancing at the Rascal Fair"?

4. How does Ivan Doig paint Gros Ventre? Do you remember the buildings there? (There weren't many.) What is a medicine lodge?

5. What do you think of Lucas Barclay and his Nancy? What can be learned of the history of the area from Nancy's story?

6. What do you know homesteading in America in the late 19th century? What is one drawback that would keep one from wanting to own land in this particular area?

Related links:
1862 - the Pacific Railroad Act and the Homestead Act
Gros Ventre Indians in Montana

Discussion Leaders: Babi & Joan P

JoanP · « **Reply #1 on:** July 31, 2011, 03:45:21 PM »

Welcome, everyone! Off to Montana at last! Have you ever visited this the Two Medicine Creek part of the state? We stayed in Butte, then Cut Bank when visiting Glacier National Park. A mistake to try to try to do it in one day, we learned. It was September - so misty/foggy and light snow, too, there was no view. But we can claim to have been there.
Coming from the East - I can see I'm going to learn a lot about the area and its history - all while reading Doig's absorbing story.

maryz · « **Reply #2 on:** July 31, 2011, 11:10:39 PM »

Someone asked in the pre-discussion about French-speaking people in that area. I'd think the name Gros Ventre and any other French names came from the French fur-trappers that were active throughout the Canadian and American west in the pre-settlement time.

salan · « **Reply #3 on:** August 01, 2011, 07:54:36 AM »

I'm here and eagerly awaiting everyone's response to the first 88 pages. This book "throws me off" somewhat in that it is being narrated by one character to another. Where is Rob and why is Angus telling him the story? The division of the book is a little confusing. I much prefer "regular" chapters. However, that being said, I will probably read ahead as the book is beginning to be interesting.

It would be hard to decide which character I would enjoy traveling with. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. I guess I lean more toward Angus......

Sally

Babi · « **Reply #4 on:** August 01, 2011, 08:16:01 AM »

Well, we're off! I think you're going to find this a great trip.
Doig uses fresh images that catch the attention and amuse. "..a laugh like a parrot at a bagpipe.." And Angus says of himself, "My mind lacks clench. Rob had a fist there in his head".
QWhat do you think he meant by that, a mind lacking 'clench'?
Another description of Rob by Angus...”...you were smiling hard, that Barclay special mix of entertainment and estimation.”
So, what sort of picture are you getting of these two young men? Which one
do you most closely identify with?

JoanP · « **Reply #5 on:** August 01, 2011, 04:08:39 PM »

Maryz - thanks for answering the question that came up in the Pre-discussion about the French names we are finding here in this part of Montana. Gros Ventre was one - Toussaint Rennie another. French fur traders, you say. I found something interesting about that strange name - Gros Ventre - big belly. I'll save it - until we get the boys across the Atlantic from Scotland...

Sally - an interesting observation. I agree with you, Angus the narrator - but to whom is he telling the story? Maybe to us?
Why do you lean towards travelling with Angus? I think it would be fun to go to a party with Rob - he knows how to have a good time. But crossing the Atlantic under the conditions described? Angus seems to have prepared himself for the voyage. I wondered whether his guide was real - googled and found this - Croffut's Transcontinental Guidebook - could this be the one Angus packed for the trip?

Babi - I'll have to think about Angus' mind lacking "clench." Back later...

CallieOK · « **Reply #6 on:** August 01, 2011, 06:39:18 PM »

Angus "speaking" to Rob - and then "about" Rob was the first thing that confused me about Doig's writing. I finally got into the rhythm of it, though.

I'm not sure which one I would rather have had as a companion. I would probably get impatient with Angus' hesitancy and annoyed with Rob's impetuousness .

I think Angus was reminded of the song "Dancing At The Rascal Fair" because, as Doig wrote, "the flirting seemed to be free" as the Irish women sold their wares. So he was teasing Rob. Typical of two 19-year-old fellows, don't you think?

Babi · « **Reply #7 on:** August 02, 2011, 09:00:18 AM »

Good way of describing it, CALLIE. I think Doig was using this technque so that
we could get a good picture of Rob. He not only records their conversations, but
also his image of the Barclay's in general and Rob in particular. Angus we can
know because we are privy to this thoughts.

Rob...bold, eager, confident. Angus more thoughtful, but with a strong bond of friendship with Rob. Rob is the one eager to emigrate. Angus dreads the ocean but will not let Rob down. Many are emigrating from "The pinched old earth called Scotland". "And every last inch of it everlastingly owned by those higher than Angus McCaskill and Rob Barclay." That likely sums up neatly the reasons for most emigration.

JoanP · « **Reply #8 on:** August 02, 2011, 02:46:36 PM »

Are you finding the site excruciatingly slow today - as I am? Easy to blame the heat - but it may be something else. Know that we are trying to figure out what the problem is.

Callie, I think it's safe to say that the story is being told from Angus' point of view - no matter who is speaking - or to whom.

It is Angus who introduces Rob - describes him - and sometimes he even explains his behavior, doesn't he?
Rob exudes confidence - even when it is not warranted. Babi, I think that's what Angus meant when he said his teeth "lacked clench." I looked back to that passage - he was commenting on Rob's ability to "hold that smile effortlessly the way a horse holds a bit between his teeth."

"It can be said my mind lacks clench." Angus needs believe - before he can smile.
If I had to choose, I'd take Angus. I need someone who is straightforward - not a big talker. Angus seems to have a store of verse and song in his head - I was surprised to hear of the Rascal Fair dance so early in the story...when their ship stopped in Queensland and the Irish girls came aboard. (Queensland was the old name for Cobh - my Irish great grandmother sailed from this port around this same time. Maybe she met the boys?)
Notice that Angus had paid attention to his Corfutt guide - and purchased the lemons from the Irish girl who came aboard to peddle them.

JoanP · « **Reply #9 on:** August 02, 2011, 02:53:04 PM »

Babi - you noted how Rob is the one eager to emigrate. Did you get the impression he was running away from something or from someone - or was he simply eager to earn the kind of money his Uncle Lucas was making in Montana? It was a bit strange that he showed so little emotion leaving his family. Angus on the other hand, had no one left in Scotland, and yet he is feeling it as the ship leaves the harbor and pulls away from all that he has ever known.

marloh · « **Reply #10 on:** August 02, 2011, 04:13:53 PM »

I am excited to be here. It's my first time on an online bookclub or any online chat. I probably will have to keep a low profile as I discovered Rascal Fair a couple of months ago and fell in love with the book. I am now into my 7th Doig book and loving every word. My book club is doing the trilogy of "Dancing at the Rascal Fair" "English Creek" & "Ride With Me, Mariah Montana" in September altho we don't expect everyone to read them all by then (unless they get as enthralled as I did). I shouldn't comment on who I'd rather travel with because I know too much about Rob & Angus. But I think at the time I was starting the

book I probably would have picked Angus. Happy reading to you all. It's a great read!

CallieOK · « **Reply #11 on:** August 02, 2011, 04:23:57 PM »

Joan, I agree that the story is told from Angus' point of view - and will continue to be so.

Rob may have been less hesitant to leave because he knew there was a family member at the destination.
He's the impetuous one - just heading out with no real plan in mind except to get to Montana and find Uncle Lucas.

Angus' childhood experiences may have made him more cautious about taking the risk of going into the unknown. The Corfutt guide helps him feel prepared.
I like his witty sense of humor that comes out unexpectedly.

salan · « **Reply #12 on:** August 02, 2011, 06:29:15 PM »

"It's hotter'n hot, said the Hottentot".....Does anyone know where that expression originated? I tried "googling" it, but came up with some very strange things and no answer. I think that expression stuck with me because here in TX we are starting our 2nd month of triple digit weather and no rain in site. Right now the mountains of Montana sound pretty good!

I think I would prefer traveling with Angus because he was a planner (I am, too), and Rob was impetuous. A person could get in trouble that way!

Sally

JoanP · « **Reply #13 on:** August 02, 2011, 10:19:44 PM »

Marloh - we are just as excited to have you join us. There is so much here, that even if you know the plot, I'm sure that you will find that an online book club can add so much. First there is the resource of the Internet at your finger tips. But more than that - there are people from all over the country - no, I meant to say - from all over the world... who share experience and observations that you won't find anywhere.

We're really excited to have you here with us! Welcome!

I was interested in what you had to say about your choice of travelling companion. We really don't have much to go on yet, do we? As Callie points out, the story is told from Angus' point of view. I guess we'll have to observe Rob for ourselves to get a balanced understanding of him.

Does anyone remember if the boys intended to take advantage of the Homestead Act as they travelled to Montana? Did either of them know anything about farming, or ranching? Did they have any idea what Lucas was doing to earn his money when they left home? Terrible memory...

JoanP · « **Reply #14 on:** August 02, 2011, 10:44:46 PM »

Quote

"Hotter'n hot, said the Hottentot."

Sally, now you've got me searching, googling away the hour! The expression is soo familiar, isn't it? We've been over 100º here in the DC area too...although this week is a bit better - down to 97º predicted for tomorrow. You're right - it's the lack of rain that's making it rough.

Interesting that you brought up the mountains of Montana - I remember making a note last week when reading of the high temperatures in Montana - "Montana is up so high, it's next door to the sun." I put an exclamation point next to that paragraph. Maybe I can find it. Maybe it was next to the Hottentot phrase.

So is it true - about Montana's high temperatures?

Mippy · « **Reply #15 on:** August 03, 2011, 06:17:30 AM »

Good morning! I'd like to join the group although several houseguests over the next couple of weeks might keep me away.
I've just started the book, my first time reading Ivan Doig. Also, I've never been to Montana, so the geographical references are going to be a great leaning experience!

PatH · « **Reply #16 on:** August 03, 2011, 08:57:02 AM »

Welcome, Marloh, I'm looking forward to talking with you. How did you find us?

CallieOK · « **Reply #17 on:** August 03, 2011, 08:58:29 AM »

I've never been to Montana, but I lived in Colorado for 15 years - 2 years out on the plains and 13 years in Leadville, which is 10,200 feet above sea level.
I'm guessing the two states might be similar - although the area where the "boys" were in Montana is much farther north.
Daytime temperatures on the flat plains of Colorado could soar into the 100's (F.). In the mountains, the 80's (F.) were considered a "high temperature".
However, at that altitude, the sun is so intense that you can sunburn badly even in winter temperatures below freezing and the humidity is so low that it doesn't feel that cold.
Also - when the sun goes down behind the mountains, the air cools quickly and night time temps are cold. We had no need for a/c in Leadville and our furnace came on during the night all summer.

The "saying" was that Leadville had "eleven months of winter and one month of very late Fall".

I remember my tulips blooming through a late May snow that blanketed the ground for several days.

PatH · « **Reply #18 on:** August 03, 2011, 09:05:02 AM »

JoanP, like you I feel I don't really know what Rob is like yet.

I think the boys knew about the Homestead Act before they emigrated. I don't remember any first-hand farming experience, though, and they didn't really know anything about what Lucas was doing, just that he was able to send home $100, a magnificent sum, every Christmas.

Babi · « **Reply #19 on:** August 03, 2011, 10:34:46 AM »

JOAN, I think Rob was simply ambitious for more than he could hope to find in Scotland.
And young people are always so eager to leave the nest. I doubt if they ever think they
might miss those at home. As for Angus, his strongest bond is with Rob. The ocean is
terrifying to him. After all, he was raised on the story of his great-grandfather nearly
drowning. If it were not for Rob, I think Angus would have been content to remain in
Scotland.
But there was another important lesson Angus learned from his grandfather and great-
grandfather. LIke, "But the job was there at the Bell Rock. It was to be done, afraid or no afraid."
WELCOME, MARLOH! And don't be shy; we want your comments. I have read the book before,
also, but I just take each section as it comes up in the discussion.

Quote

"A person could get in trouble that way!"

Those words may be prophetic, SALLY.

JOAN, when the boys left, they understood Lucas to be involved in silver mining. They
fully expect to join him and hopefully, become prosperous from mining, too.

Oh, good, MIPPY! Wonderful to have you. You're really going to love Doig.

PatH · « **Reply #20 on:** August 03, 2011, 04:06:16 PM »

Doig paints scenes very colorfully. In the chaotic scene where the bumboat women are selling anything and everything to the passengers, did anyone think of "HMS Pinafore"? It's not as colorful, but the opening scene has a bumboat woman (Little Buttercup) coming on board, selling all her wares to the sailors.

JoanP · « **Reply #21 on:** August 03, 2011, 06:11:47 PM »

Mippy - Welcome. Hopefully you can find some time to share your thoughts. Do you have the book in hand?

Funny, PatH - your post sent me back to the ship - I'd forgotten what sort of things the Irish lasses were hawking to the men - and was reminded of the cheeses, apples...and pinafores! Easy to see how you made the connection. Do you think Doig was thinking of this musical too?

If I pack for an ocean voyage in the future, I'll have to read my Crofutt's again. It wasn't lemons the silent lady was holding in her hands - but the green "balls" she sold to Angus - were limes. Yes, I'll stay close to Angus until we reach Montana, anyway. He might be scared out of his mind, but he's prepared for the journey.

JoanP · « **Reply #22 on:** August 03, 2011, 06:29:23 PM »

Babi - remembers the boys went to Montana expecting to work and make a fortune in the silver mines! PatH thinks they knew about the Homestead Act...maybe there was advertising i overseas? Is that why people were emigrating to America?

Callie - we visited Leadville! When were you there? I was fascinated with the story of Baby Doe Tabor, who married tha wealthy "silver kind - lived it up until silver crashed at the end of the 19th century...Maybe it was just as well the boys didn't get into siilver after all. I had you pegged for an OKlahoma girl - but now see that you lived in Colorado too. Anything you can tell us about the Homestead Act would be helpful.

Can't you just imagine the amazement - after that journey with Herbert through the wilderness...when they pulled into the town of Gros Ventre? Was it actually a town? I can't find any record of it now - maybe it didn't ever develop into the boom town Lucas dreamed it would...

CallieOK · « **Reply #23 on:** August 03, 2011, 06:30:30 PM »

JoanP, we lived in Leadville from 1964 - 1977. My husband was with the school system.
I'm "a Sooner born and a Sooner bred..." (both parents' families here before statehood) but "left to see the world" after college - and got as far as Amarillo!

Met/married my hubby there and we moved to Colorado 4 years later. I've been back in Oklahoma for 34 years, so I guess I'll stay this time.

In Angus' "thought soliloquy" (?) the first night on the ship, he says, "...when Rob caught America fever, I saw all too readily the truth in what he said about...the great American land pantry in such places as his uncle's Montana, where homesteads were given...in exchange for only a few years of earnful effort."
I didn't see any comment telling how he knew this.

There's quite a bit about homesteading at the beginning of our next section. I thought I'd wait until then to comment on the process.

maryz · « **Reply #24 on:** August 03, 2011, 06:31:39 PM »

I looked Gros Ventre up on Google maps - there is a creek by that name, but no town - at least not now.

PatH · « **Reply #25 on:** August 03, 2011, 07:29:45 PM »

Rosemarykaye, just in case these terms we're tossing about aren't familiar:

The Homestead Act, signed by Abraham Lincoln in 1862, gave anyone over 21 the right to 160 acres of undeveloped federal land west of the Mississippi, which meant most of the yet-to-be states, if he would live on it for 5 years, improve it, i. e. farm it, (and, of course, fill out the necessary paperwork). It shaped our nation--an opportunity to make a new, better life for anyone with the guts to try, and it's part of our mindset.

A Sooner is someone who settled an area before the official starting time, and Oklahoma is the Sooner State because there were a lot of Sooners. So Callie is a double Sooner.

CallieOK · « **Reply #26 on:** August 03, 2011, 08:48:39 PM »

Oklahoma was unusual because Native Americans had been assigned almost all of what would become a state in 1907.
There was an area in central Oklahoma that had not been assigned to Native Americans and it was called - TA DAH! - The Unassigned Lands.
In 1889, a Land Run was held to allow homesteaders to make a claim in this area. This land run was the central plot of Edna Ferber's novel, "Cimarron" (the Cimarron River was the northern boundary of the Run area and the movie "Far and Away".
Four other areas were settled with a Land Run - and two areas with Lotteries.
I don't think any other state was opened for homesteading in either of these ways.

"Sooners" were the people who came in before the official time of the Land Runs and were usually run out by Federal Marshalls. They would not have been able to file a claim until the time at which the legal "Boomers" could do so.

As far as I can tell from the next section we'll read in "Dancing...", the filing process was the same. More on that when we get there.

Babi · « **Reply #27 on:** August 04, 2011, 08:55:00 AM »

I was surprised to find, from Doig's 'Acknowledgments', that Montana had more homesteaders
than any other state. There was definitely advertising overseas for settlers, primarily from
the railroads.
I'm pretty sure Gros Ventre was a fictional town, but it was typical of many of the 'towns'
that cropped up as settlers/ranchers came in. It was rather startling what could be called a
town back in the beginning.

I guess we're all familiar with the use of limes by British seamen. But I didn't know travelers
-at least in steerage- needed to bring their own cutlery to eat with. It sounds as though ships
were owned or hired by companies luring settlers to America; entire ships filled with hopeful
landseekers. Land in Europe, as Angus noted, was pretty much firmly in the hands of the wealthy and nobility. Not much opportuity to better one's lot there.

JoanP · « **Reply #28 on:** August 04, 2011, 09:40:55 AM »

Good morning! So much helpful information here today. Again, I need help remembering how Lucas came to this "town" - and set up his "Medicine Lodge" - I know he was in that dreadful blast in the mine that took both of his hands - but how did he make it into the wilderness and Gros Ventre? Was the silver mine nearby?

Maryz - thanks for searching on the Internet for Gros Ventre. Babi's probably right about it being a "fictional town." Or possibly it was a little settlement the railroad didn't come through and was simply abandonned. Then the question would have to be asked - was "Scotch Heaven" ficitional?

I found some further information on the name....the Gros Ventres were an Indian tribe, later became associated with the Blackfeet. Really, not fiction. Here's an actual photograph -

Fascinating. If you're interested in reading more about them... Gros Ventre Indians in Montana They still live on The Fort Belknap reservation in Montana...

So we get an idea of Nancy's people and how and why she came to the settlement in Gros Ventre with Uncle Toussaint.

Callie - thanks for the information on the Oklahoma settlement of the "Unassigned" lands. It appears that land has already been assigned to the Blackfeet and associated tribes in Montana as well - by the time the Homestead Act made land available to the rest of the country. Babi found the link in the heading regarding the Homestead Act: -

"1862 saw the United States Congress pass two pieces of legislation, the Pacific Railroad Act and the Homestead Act, which dramatically opened up the west. These bills helped turn the Great American Desert into the breadbasket of the world and gave 1.6 million families land of their own- the same time the TransContinental Railroad was approved.'

The "west" is now open for all bold and daring enough to attempt to settle. Can you tell us which geographic areas were open for settlement? From Oklahoma west? The boys seem to have left Scotland in 1889. This is the same year that Montana became a state. Do you think the Homestead Act opens land in this new state - beginning now - 1889?

CallieOK · « **Reply #29 on:** August 04, 2011, 11:01:30 AM »

JoanP, Sorry, I don't know about Homesteading anywhere except Oklahoma. Here's a link to some maps showing Indian "assignments" and the "Twin Territories".

http://www.okatlas.org/okatlas/geopolitical/state-1890.htm

Click on "Indian Territory and No Man's Land" to see the various Indian assignments.

rosemarykaye · « **Reply #30 on:** August 04, 2011, 12:27:55 PM »

Thanks for the explanations - I definitely need them!

All this reminds me a little of the many people that went to Australia on the £10 tickets when I was a child. A friend of my mother's went with her husband and children. They found it very hard when they arrived (this must have been the early 1960s), but in the end I think they did quite well. There was a huge campaign to get people to emigrate at that time, when the UK was still really in the post-war doldrums - and as you say, all of the land in the UK - especially in Scotland - has been and remains in the possession of a few very wealthy families, with no possibility of anyone else getting their hands on it.

Does anyone know if it was Montana that Annie Proulx wrote her latest book about?

Thanks

Rosemary

CallieOK · « **Reply #31 on:** August 04, 2011, 01:40:03 PM »

I Googled "Montana Homesteading" and this is the only link I found that gave information about it. The dates here don't fit the dates in "Dancing..." and I couldn't find anything about homesteading in the late 1800's. I thought the English nobility settled there during those years. Curious!!!!

http://montanakids.com/history_and_prehistory/Frontier_Life/homesteaders.htm

PatH · « **Reply #32 on:** August 04, 2011, 02:00:56 PM »

Quote from: rosemarykaye on August 04, 2011, 12:27:55 PM

Does anyone know if it was Montana that Annie Proulx wrote her latest book about?

Thanks

Rosemary

I thought it was, but it turns out it's Wyoming.

JoanP · « **Reply #33 on:** August 04, 2011, 09:39:39 PM »

Annie Proulx - isn't she wonderful? Yes, Rosemary, as PatH says, Annie is to Wyoming what Ivan Doig is to Montana. - He was born here, his heart is here.

Callie, I was interested in your post - that found the dates of Montana Homesteading were not jiving with the novel.
I'm so positive that he knows the facts and the dates he's writing about - as well as he knows his own telephone number - I just had to do my own search. I found much the same as you didl...

Quote

"The floodgates of homesteading opened in the mid-1800s. With cities and farmland overcrowded in the East, the United States government under President Abraham Lincoln established the Free Homestead Act in 1862. With the goal of “settling” the West (even though much of the land was already home to Native Americans), the Act allowed homesteaders to file for 160-acre claims. As long as they “proved up” the acreage in five years—which essentially meant building a home and cultivating the land—it was theirs at no cost besides nominal filing fees.

Although homesteading was initiated in 1862, the boom in Montana really began in 1906 when more than 100,000 immigrants staked their claim in the state. With rugged determination to succeed on farms of wheat or stock, each poured his heart, soul and elbow grease into making it work. However, not even hard work could stop the coming of 1919 and the years that followed. This period marked the start of a severe agricultural depression in Montana. Devastating drought, dry grass, low crop yields and starving livestock caused farms to disappear nearly as quickly as they were established. It’s estimated that half the homesteaders went bust."

Montana's Homesteading Heritage

Shall we assume that the boys are early in the race for the land? Perhaps this area is so far out of the way that it is as yet undiscovered? I'm wondering whether Lucas would have been so generous helping the boys if it wasn't for the fact that Rob is showing interest in Nancy - even planning on staying on in Gros Ventre. So much for his big plans that he brought from Scotland with him. I'm wondering what's going on in Nancy's head. She doesn't seem to have much to say, does she? You can't tell if she returns Rob's interest.

maryz · « **Reply #34 on:** August 04, 2011, 10:16:11 PM »

The boys are definitely early in the move to homestead in Montana. The time line of the book is from 1889(?) and goes into the 20th century. So it's not off that timeline.

Babi · « **Reply #35 on:** August 05, 2011, 08:43:04 AM »

I'm pretty sure people were taking advantage of the Homestead Act well before statehood.
Settlement had to come first; Statehood depended on a having an appreciable population first.
I found this link on the subject: http://www.answers.com/topic/northwest-ordinance

Thanks for that link, CALLIE. It makes a good point; early settlers looking at those immense
prairies and endless forests could not have imagined it possible to ever 'use it all up'.
Unfortunately, as we well know now, it was very possible.

Yes, indeed,...Rob and Angus and Lucas before them, were earlier immigrants to Montana.
They would have been there some years before the big influx of homesteaders. As I recall,
most of the emigrants on the ship that brought the boys were headed to closer areas of
settlement. It was having a relative in Montana that took them there.

CallieOK · « **Reply #36 on:** August 05, 2011, 11:50:02 AM »

My grandfather "came West" from Wheeling West VA to Iowa in 1881. He became a real estate agent and went into the insurance business.

I have original letters from his friend (still in Wheeling) to Grandfather as they were discussing moving further on - in 1884. A letter written on March 1 states that Grandfather has been reading up on Montana and friend John thinks that sounds good because they would "start with everyone else and have no established men to buck against."

However, on March 30, 1884, John has decided "Montanna (his spelling) is too limited in its resources, being good only for cattle raising." (He thinks the two men should read for the law). He wants to go to Washington since the Northern Pacific RR is opening that territory up; when the RR decides where its terminus will be, they will settle there.

Actually, they both ended up in Nebraska at the end of 1884 and never went any farther! Neither of them read for the law, either; they both became bankers.

Unfortunately, I have no letters that my grandfather wrote so I don't really know his opinions.

JoanP · « **Reply #37 on:** August 05, 2011, 02:00:48 PM »

I remember now the big STATEHOOD celebration when the boys were in Helena- looking for Lucas and his silver mine. When they reached Gros Ventre - learned of Lucas' accident - Angus rode out to Scotch Heaven - where Nineas Duff and several other ranchers had already set up their homesteads. So that must be right, Babi - "people were taking advantage of the Homestead Act well before statehood." Thanks for the interesting link to the formation of "townships."
I remember those conversations aboard the crowded ship. No one else was coming to America to take advantage of the Homestead Act. For that matter, Rob and Angus were coming to make big money in the silver mines - "Montana, nothing but mountains, from the name of it, one of them said"

Those letters are priceless, Callie! So your grandfather's friend, John - thought the land was lacking in resources, but was good for cattle raising. And sheep too, I'll bet. Lucas' offer to partner the boys with a band of sheep gets Rob's attention. What of Nancy? Did you notice Rob doesn't hesitate to jump on Lucas' offer? Would Lucas have offered to "partner" the boys if Nancy had not been in the picture? So the plans change - the would-be silver miners are on their way to becoming landowners.
An they are early, have beat the rush and have their pick of the choice plots.

Was Nancy dallying with Rob? I found it hard to tell. She doesn't seem to reveal her thoughts one way or another. - Does she speak? What a life she has led! Isn't this an enjoyable way to learn history?

PatH · « **Reply #38 on:** August 05, 2011, 07:29:46 PM »

Two things I want to comment on before we move on: work and money.

Both boys accept work as a given, and never give it a thought or seem to complain about it. When they see that it will take a while to find Lucas, they just get jobs, thinking about inflow to balance outflow. When Ninian Duff asks Angus if he's afraid of work, his answer is "none that I've met yet". That's how it had to be back then, and Angus has been self-supporting for some time, but how many nineteen year olds have that attitude now.

Money: the boys take jobs whenever they are stuck somewhere for a while, but they seem to have had enough to get them to Montana and sustain them for a while first, and it never seems to be a big issue. They must have had enough savings to make it comfortable, unlike many immigrants.

CallieOK · « **Reply #39 on:** August 05, 2011, 07:45:17 PM »

I think both boys are very resourceful and open to all opportunities they encounter. Angus sums it up by saying, "So there is the sum we were...as our Scotland-leaving year of 1889 drew to a cold close in new Montana." "Persons we'd been all our lives and persons becoming new to ourselves."

He also says, "The notion grew on me that maybe I might as well go ahead and try a bit of land looking...just to be sure we weren't missing some undisclosed reason for hope here in Gros Ventre's neighborhood." So he is the one who thought about getting a homestead.

Nancy's story reminded me of the stories about the Comanches and other tribes described in "Empire of the Summer Moon". Being restricted to defined reservations without the ability to move freely as the seasons dictated was disastrous for most - if not all - of the Plains Indian tribes after they came under the jurisdiction of the federal government.

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